I recently say a post here about someone wanting to "Join the Revolt" and asking when foe the "War on Religion" begin. The post then quickly devolved into silliness and it became pretty obvious the poster wasn't serious.
However...I am serious, and I do say that there is a "War in Religion" whether people tend to recognize it, or not. I think the war has been going on for years, but most recently got "a lot hotter" after the events of 9/11 which made a lot of people realize just how stupid and dangerous religion could be – and made them more willing to speak out.
Although there has been an Atheist voice or two openly decrying religion over the last 100 years, or so, what is called the "New Atheist" by the Xtians is especially representative of a war. And...I'll agree with the Xtians on this one – the "New Atheist" is something new.
Until recently – very recently - every time Atheists and Xtians have debated, there has always been an unspoken rule of the debate: Religious beliefs must be respected. Not so with the new Atheists who casually mocks religion and enjoys doing so. As a result, the religious amongst us have lot a lot of firepower, for religion can not stand to be mocked – not ever. Those who are religious take themselves seriously and they feel mighty uneasy when Atheists do not take them seriously. This is why the "New Atheism" is so feared. This is why the "New Atheism" is so effective.
A belief in the supernatural can not long withstand ridicule.
New Atheism? Is that seriously a term?
I personally just try to live my life without labels. "dont believe in any mumbo jumbo, such as dieties" is usually how i describe my views. Realist. Or something...
War on religion though? No.. I dont think so. At least not in the crappy U.S.
Religions in general have thin skins, that's for sure, and it's one of their weaknesses. Shows a lot of weakness too.
I usually reach a crossroad when dealing with people that I respect, because they're people I respect regardless of their beliefs. I don't respect any of their beliefs however, but they're really sensitive about them.
I can only speak for myself, but what really annoys me about religion is the amount of interference and broken old ways. The level of entitlement they feel to meddle in other people's lives (and not seeing a problem with it) is sometimes unbelievable. And their moral system, which depends on some Big Brother who is always watching and will judge them in the afterlife - it's all very childish. I believe children go through a developmental stage where they don't do wrong things for fear of getting caught?
This true believer I knew indulged in certain sins addictively, which is really odd for a true believer in an omniscient god who "knows his heart" and will judge him in the afterlife. WTF is up with that? Can anybody explain that inconsistency? I'm terribly curious...
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
The war on religion. I can't help but laugh every time I say it. I want to ask them who exactly it was they thought started the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and so on and so forth. War implies an element of hostile takeover, of forcing views and beliefs on people who don't want them. I don't know many atheists bent on converting the religious. I don't atheists who blow up churches or otherwise accost religious folk who are otherwise minding their own business. The war on free thinking might be a better way to describe what's happening in America, or the war on old white guys who think only old white guys are entitled to their Constitutional rights.
When Christians rail atheists about their beliefs, they call it evangelism. When an atheist suggests believing science over superstition, than it some how becomes a war. Yeah, okay. ::)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
I would say the same, but there are some people I know are very intelligent. They're just not thinking clearly. I don't respect their beliefs, however. It's not their religion that keeps me from bashing them, that's for sure.
I do think that calling the current zeitgeist a clash of ideologies, an 'ideology war' is appropriate. It's not something that has to resemble the Christian takeover during the dark ages to be called a war, IMO. I think it's rather pointless to compare that kind of stuff perpetrated in the past with today. It's a bit like apples and oranges, there.
Quote from: philosoraptor on May 20, 2012, 04:57:10 AM
The war on religion. I can't help but laugh every time I say it. I want to ask them who exactly it was they thought started the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and so on and so forth. War implies an element of hostile takeover, of forcing views and beliefs on people who don't want them. I don't know many atheists bent on converting the religious. I don't atheists who blow up churches or otherwise accost religious folk who are otherwise minding their own business. The war on free thinking might be a better way to describe what's happening in America, or the war on old white guys who think only old white guys are entitled to their Constitutional rights.
When Christians rail atheists about their beliefs, they call it evangelism. When an atheist suggests believing science over superstition, than it some how becomes a war. Yeah, okay. ::)
I know. Atheists tend to make their business, and not disturb your park lunch by asking for donations to their missionary. Idjits.
I have to stop myself from laughing in their face every time.
Why is it always a war on something? A "War on Christmas", a "war on religion", the "war against drugs", the "war on terrorism", etc. Any time you start attaching the term "war" as part of a policy argument or point of view, it becomes a simplistic caricature of the message, one that makes it far too simplistic. Also, saying the new atheists are declaring a "war on religion" is the perfect way to demonize them in the eyes of many in society, which is ultimately self-defeating.
I am not interested in a war against religion. I am interested in pushing for less religious influence in the public sphere, and more emphasis on actual science and reasoning instead. And for religion not to be shoved in my face, and to respect my atheist views. That's not a war against anything. It's an argument, and perhaps a campaign. Until some fundies start attacking me for my views and I have to figure out how to fire a gun to protect myself, I'm not at war with anything except the flies I fry with my electric flyswatter.
Quote from: FirebirdI am not interested in a war against religion. I am interested in pushing for less religious influence in the public sphere, and more emphasis on actual science and reasoning instead. And for religion not to be shoved in my face, and to respect my atheist views. That's not a war against anything. It's an argument, and perhaps a campaign. Until some fundies start attacking me for my views and I have to figure out how to fire a gun to protect myself, I'm not at war with anything except the flies I fry with my electric flyswatter.
Exactly! And IMO one of the main methods in this campaign should be humour.
Quote from: Happy_Is_GoodA belief in the supernatural can not long withstand ridicule.
Very neatly put.
It would be nice to have a,lunch in te park without religion shoved in your face.
Especially taking public trains/buses. I should be allowed to have a nice day without hearing the stories of some dirty hippie 2000 years ago. How he someone died for us, yet the world is as evil as ever. And people just wont move the fuck on with their lives.
The thing is, what is considered a 'War on Religion' is entirely different between conservative Christians and secularists (general term, hopefully that works). To conservative Christians the 'War on Religion' is about (false) oppression. While to the rest of us, the 'War on Religion' is about the rise of the number of non-believers and isn't in any way a bad thing.
I am certainly an 'New Atheist' in this regard of questioning religious beliefs though. As long as Christianity still holds the majority of my country, tells me how to dress, tells me who I can love and who I can not love, I will push against it. When you have a view like this, it is objectively either right or wrong. It isn't an opinion. It's a statement of fact. The notion that a view like this can not be questioned is absurd. If it weren't so rooted in our society and did not get into our laws I would not care so much, though. Honestly, I know this because of how I feel about those who believe in ancient astronauts. Their belief is way out there, however, they aren't telling me how I should run my life, and they have no influence for their craziness to end up in the form of law. So, honestly, I don't care. Some of them can be rather full of themselves and how they think they know so much more than the 'sheep' (us), but that's another issue.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
It's not about intelligence.
It's about a group playing specifically to the pitfalls of the human brain. It's a great big web that you can get caught in and intelligence does not get you out of it.
I don't understand why you can't respect anybody who's religious. I really hope you don't mean exactly what you're saying. Religious people are people. There are many layers to a person, and oftentimes religious belief isn't a very big layer of that person. I live in the Bible Belt, but I can tell you that not many people I know have their identity completely tied up in their religion. There's one girl I knew in high school who now only ever makes posts on Facebook with Bible verses and about living for the Lord, but she's one out of MANY Christians I know. Most of them hardly if ever mention religion or God.
Again, a lot of people don't make their identity all about their religious beliefs. They can very much be normal people. I just don't think that in any normal situation, a religious belief is reason to lose respect for somebody. It's when do things like hate on homosexuals and other groups, wish to deny rights to others through law, refuse to take their child to a hospital because of "faith healing" or anything like that warrants a loss of respect. You have to take it on case-by-case basis because everybody is different, as a lot of religious people are just good people who happen to be religious.
War! that word shouldn't really be thrown around so inanely. Is a war what you really want? That is the last thing I would want, just think about what that word means and the actions that are committed even in its most mundane form. Do you want people to be arrested for there beliefs? do you want people to face hostile persecution? Do you want people to band together and fight against each other, splitting families and friends apart? Do you want floods of propaganda telling people how to think? Do you want aggressive, degrading, humiliating, actions to happen to others because they don't agree with you?
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
I respect there choice to believe what they like but I can't respect the beliefs. When I say that I don't mean the philosophical stuff that can be found everywhere, even if I disagree with it there is usually an intellectual basis of some sort, its the other stuff that makes me lose any respect.
I don't want a war on religion. I'm not sure that I know anybody that wants a war on religion.
I think that many theists see athesits as wanting a war on religion. I think that some theists believe that we are out to deconvert everybody.
Now, there could be some athesits out there doing that. For the most part though, we just want to be able to choose what we believe (or don't believe) in.
Quote from: rainbowcat212 on May 20, 2012, 06:46:16 PM
For the most part though, we just want to be able to choose what we believe (or don't believe) in.
My main concern is the law being used to compel people as a whole to live according to specific religious practices -- the whole same-sex marriage business being a prime example.
I've said it before, I don't care what other people believe as long as they behave themselves.
Quote from: Firebird on May 20, 2012, 09:04:04 AM
Why is it always a war on something? A "War on Christmas", a "war on religion", the "war against drugs", the "war on terrorism", etc. Any time you start attaching the term "war" as part of a policy argument or point of view, it becomes a simplistic caricature of the message, one that makes it far too simplistic. Also, saying the new atheists are declaring a "war on religion" is the perfect way to demonize them in the eyes of many in society, which is ultimately self-defeating.
I am not interested in a war against religion. I am interested in pushing for less religious influence in the public sphere, and more emphasis on actual science and reasoning instead. And for religion not to be shoved in my face, and to respect my atheist views. That's not a war against anything. It's an argument, and perhaps a campaign. Until some fundies start attacking me for my views and I have to figure out how to fire a gun to protect myself, I'm not at war with anything except the flies I fry with my electric flyswatter.
You've managed to say what I meant to say, except much more eloquently. ;-)
Classifying oneself as the victim of a 'War' allows retaliation. In the case of theists it allows/facilitates the focussing of resources and effort in the consolidation of their dogmatic positions.
Quote from: Tank on May 20, 2012, 08:28:17 PM
Classifying oneself as the victim of a 'War' allows retaliation. In the case of theists it allows/facilitates the focussing of resources and effort in the consolidation of their dogmatic positions.
So true
I always think of Atheism as a step away from a kind of primitive, emotional thinking that requires no accountability. Religion is one product of that kind if thinking; so is war.
Still, while religion is never necessary, war sometimes can be. I don't like the idea of fighting anyone, but if they try to teach kids that evolution is a lie, or homosexual partners shouldn't be able to see each other in the hospital...hand me my spear.
Quote from: cgmccall on May 20, 2012, 09:34:06 PM
I always think of Atheism as a step away from a kind of primitive, emotional thinking that requires no accountability. Religion is one product of that kind if thinking; so is war.
Still, while religion is never necessary, war sometimes can be. I don't like the idea of fighting anyone, but if they try to teach kids that evolution is a lie, or homosexual partners shouldn't be able to see each other in the hospital...hand me my spear.
War is a means to an end, war just for the sake of it makes no sense whatsoever, a drain and is simply imbecilic. Costs are incredibly high and in the end of it all, all sides will generally wish they had never taken part in it.
But sometimes it is necessary, and even though the word 'war' has become rather over-used and thrown around so easily, I still think that calling the new atheist movement an ideology war is appropriate.
(I'm not a war-mongerer, I'm just saying. IMO it's the weakest who feel they need to resort to strength as their means...)
Quote from: Tank on May 20, 2012, 08:28:17 PM
Classifying oneself as the victim of a 'War' allows retaliation. In the case of theists it allows/facilitates the focussing of resources and effort in the consolidation of their dogmatic positions.
Not to mention when there's a threat (real or imagined) in the horizon, people usually group into their flocks more readily and are even more manageable, not to mention a better lobbying force. Terror Managment.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
Totaly agree
Okay, maybe "war" is too strong a word, but lately I am definitely of the opinion that atheists need to push back. Call it a movement or a campaign, or whatever but I really think we all need to come out of the closet and be heard. I am sick of religion, which if you dare to even ask it to defend it's position, you are being "disrespectful" (see The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins). I am sick even remotely entertaining the possibility that "intelligent design" or creationism could be taught in our schools as "alternative theories". This is utter nonsense and is wasting our collective time as humans that could be spent moving on to the next discoveries. I know I am repeating myself here, because I also posted this in another thread, but Neil deGrasse Tyson says it better than I can: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti3mtDC2fQo&list=PLF3520A1942B13832&index=1&feature=plpp_video . An important point he makes in this video is the appallingly stifling affect religion has (and has always had) on our progress as a species. There is so much suffering in the world that probably could have been alleviated thousands of years ago if it weren't for the quagmire of religion (or as Neil puts it, the philosophy of ignorance) holding us back. The ongoing harm this is doing is immeasurable and that is why I don't think it's okay to say "well, if they want to believe that, then what's the harm?"
I'm going to play the devil's advocate and just say that I don't see the point of a "war on religion." This may just be the passive side of me speaking. In my opinion, it is words like these that are the reason that religious people hate us. They see all atheists as people who want to do away with their religion and force them to not believe. Of course that is impossible, but I think that saying things like this is just like the religious trying to force their beliefs on us. It is just not fair. I say, if they are not hurting anyone, leave them be.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on May 21, 2012, 03:28:42 AMIn my opinion, it is words like these that are the reason that religious people hat us.
Well I for one am thankful that the religious hat us.
Oh of course you can steal hats from secular targets but the religious do have a talent for providing truly bizarre examples of the millinery art.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on May 21, 2012, 03:47:12 AM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on May 21, 2012, 03:28:42 AMIn my opinion, it is words like these that are the reason that religious people hat us.
Well I for one am thankful that the religious hat us.
Oh of course you can steal hats from secular targets but the religious do have a talent for providing truly bizarre examples of the millinery art.
Crap! Another typo. Oh well, at least it was amusing.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on May 21, 2012, 03:28:42 AM
I'm going to play the devil's advocate and just say that I don't see the point of a "war on religion." This may just be the passive side of me speaking. In my opinion, it is words like these that are the reason that religious people hate us. They see all atheists as people who want to do away with their religion and force them to not believe. Of course that is impossible, but I think that saying things like this is just like the religious trying to force their beliefs on us. It is just not fair. I say, if they are not hurting anyone, leave them be.
Umm....
Yes, they are hurting 'anyone' or does being gay and having smeone tell you you're disgusting, or an abomination because the bible says. Protesting a homosexual's funeral. Or their rights as human beings to marry the ones they love.
What about religious parents disowning their children? Or even killing them (or causing them suicide)because they accept their orientation?
Let's not even begin with homosexality in the middle east ....
So, yeah... Religion is so innocent. Let's let it be. Let's let it keep controlling our laws, while it spreads hatred and ignorance. :( :(
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 21, 2012, 04:40:24 AM
Umm....
Yes, they are hurting 'anyone' or does being gay and having smeone tell you you're disgusting, or an abomination because the bible says. Protesting a homosexual's funeral. Or their rights as human beings to marry the ones they love.
What about religious parents disowning their children? Or even killing them (or causing them suicide)because they accept their orientation?
Let's not even begin with homosexality in the middle east ....
So, yeah... Religion is so innocent. Let's let it be. Let's let it keep controlling our laws, while it spreads hatred and ignorance. :( :(
Yes, I do agree that the intolerance needs to stop. But honestly, declaring war on religion is going to do nothing more than pissing off the theists. It we really want to stop the intolerance and hatred, we need to start with the younger generation. Most older people that I have met have been believing all of their lives and they are set in their ways and will not change. Buy reaching out to youth how important it is to be tolerant of religions, sexual orientations, gender, etc. we can do a lot of good. I just don't think that "declaring war" on a group that already hates us enough is going to solve anything.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on May 21, 2012, 04:49:26 AM
If we really want to stop the intolerance and hatred, we need to start with the younger generation.
I'm impressed, Budhorse. ;D
(Totally agree, BTW)
Though an old dog can learn new tricks, you do have a point there, it's much more difficult for older people to accept a totally new paradigm. They have their whole lives invested in their beliefs...and some can get rather stubborn ::)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 01:14:41 PM
It would be nice to have a,lunch in te park without religion shoved in your face.
Especially taking public trains/buses. I should be allowed to have a nice day without hearing the stories of some dirty hippie 2000 years ago. How he someone died for us, yet the world is as evil as ever. And people just wont move the fuck on with their lives.
SD, is this how it is in NY? I guess I'm just a little surprised. Friends who live there say that they can go through their day very easily there without seeing any reference to religion. Maybe it's just the fields they work in, or the areas they live in... I dunno. Although I did laugh at the "dirty hippie" comment. :D What have you got against hippies? ;D
As for the 'war on religion', I don't want a 'war' on anyone, even if it's just an intellectual one. I don't want to deny anyone their right to believe in their faith, and I don't even really want to argue them into abandoning their beliefs and becoming atheists. I don't want them to deny my rights or try to convert me, so I wouldn't do the same to them.
I'd prefer to have reasonable, level-headed conversations with them. I'd prefer to fight for our right to teach our kids actual science in schools. I'd prefer to continue to fight for the separation of church and state in a way that doesn't attack the people who attend the churches, if possible. I believe in attacking arguments, but not those who hold them.
Really, in a perfect world, we'd all just leave each other be. But failing that, I agree with the others who said that using humor to get our points across is a good idea. It gets us further than angry screaming does, anyhow. ;) Aside from humor, we can just be the best possible people we can be, and start breaking down the stereotypes people have about us.
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 03:21:05 AM
Okay, maybe "war" is too strong a word, but lately I am definitely of the opinion that atheists need to push back. Call it a movement or a campaign, or whatever but I really think we all need to come out of the closet and be heard.
Well, I agree to a point.
No-one should have to endure discrimination based on religious belief.
Atheists should not have to be forced to pray or swear on the bible.
We should not have to pledge allegiance or an oath that includes god worship.
We should not have to give grace to gods for our food, or thanks for our efforts and achievements.
We should not simply shrug off when a person tells us we are going to hell, we should not shrug off when a person tells us they will pray for us. These things are disrespectful of us and our non beliefs.
We ought to stand up and be counted.
To stand up for each other, especially those being persecuted by religious organisations and beliefs.
We ought to demand anti discrimination across the board, in all parts of society, even in religious organisations.
We ought to demand churches to play their part and pay taxes towards the betterment of our society.
We ought to demand religious based rules not to impose on the non religious and hence not impact a compassionate end to a painful life, nor to inhibit medical progress such as stem cell research.
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
Totaly agree
I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
Totaly agree
I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
If they don't respect SweetDeath and her lifestyle then how can she possibly be expected to respect them back. It is a two way street.
For the rest of us, we ought to stand by SweetDeath's side rather than just be happy the religious are picking on her rather than us.
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
Totaly agree
I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
Well, that's you. I dont have that same kind of torlerance; knowing most of their thinking is guided by a biggoted, sexist, rascist book. That deep down they cant fathom why people "choose" to be gay.
Why they dont get understand logic and reason, and why i dont need their pathetic crutch.
Quote from: Stevil on May 21, 2012, 05:28:51 AM
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
Totaly agree
I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
If they don't respect SweetDeath and her lifestyle then how can she possibly be expected to respect them back. It is a two way street.
For the rest of us, we ought to stand by SweetDeath's side rather than just be happy the religious are picking on her rather than us.
You're making me blush~ :-*
Quote from: Stevil on May 21, 2012, 05:28:51 AM
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
Totaly agree
I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
If they don't respect SweetDeath and her lifestyle then how can she possibly be expected to respect them back. It is a two way street.
For the rest of us, we ought to stand by SweetDeath's side rather than just be happy the religious are picking on her rather than us.
I totally agree with you here. I hate the intolerance that the LGBT sees on a daily basis. As the vice president of our school's Gay-Straight Allience club, I catch a lot of crap from some religious people who can't see life past their Bible. Those are the people that I do not have any respect for. The people I do hold high value are the people who come up to me saying how they had this prejudice for the gay community, but after learning that they are people too, they don't see the negative anymore. My opinion is that there is always going to be intolerance and bigotry in the world. Educating people, rather than fighting it with more intolerance is the key to at least lessening it.
Then again, this is also a personality issue as well. I am a very laid back person. I also shy away from conflict as much as possible. This makes my opinions less aggressive than some people's, and that is okay.
You can be laid back if ypu'd like.
Bu being laid back isnt in my nature. It damn sure doesnt change the world. Or the ignorance around me.
But that's me.
Quote from: Stevil on May 21, 2012, 05:28:51 AM
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
Totaly agree
I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
If they don't respect SweetDeath and her lifestyle then how can she possibly be expected to respect them back. It is a two way street.
For the rest of us, we ought to stand by SweetDeath's side rather than just be happy the religious are picking on her rather than us.
Just to be clear: I'm not in any way happy the religious are picking on her. And of course I'm standing by her side, the same way I'm standing by the side of anyone who gets picked on just for being themselves. Picking on someone for their sexual orientation or any other characteristic about them is flat out wrong. I've encountered bigotry and idiocy too, and I don't respect those who demonstrate those traits. But I don't automatically assume that just because someone believes in God, they're a bigot or an idiot. Not all the religious do pick on people. Those who are kind, decent human beings like the rest of us, I have respect for. Those who aren't kind or decent, I don't. That's it.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on May 21, 2012, 05:47:25 AM
Quote from: Stevil on May 21, 2012, 05:28:51 AM
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
Quote from: BonaireBound on May 21, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 20, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
I don't respect anyone who's religious. I just can't do it... :\
It really makes me seriously question their intelligence.
Totaly agree
I respectfully disagree. I respect several people who are religious, just not specifically because they ARE religious. Their religion is only one aspect of their personality, and while I may disagree with them over it there's still generally plenty I can respect them deeply for.
If they don't respect SweetDeath and her lifestyle then how can she possibly be expected to respect them back. It is a two way street.
For the rest of us, we ought to stand by SweetDeath's side rather than just be happy the religious are picking on her rather than us.
I totally agree with you here. I hate the intolerance that the LGBT sees on a daily basis. As the vice president of our school's Gay-Straight Allience club, I catch a lot of crap from some religious people who can't see life past their Bible. Those are the people that I do not have any respect for. The people I do hold high value are the people who come up to me saying how they had this prejudice for the gay community, but after learning that they are people too, they don't see the negative anymore. My opinion is that there is always going to be intolerance and bigotry in the world. Educating people, rather than fighting it with more intolerance is the key to at least lessening it.
Then again, this is also a personality issue as well. I am a very laid back person. I also shy away from conflict as much as possible. This makes my opinions less aggressive than some people's, and that is okay.
Great post, Buddy. Like you, I'm more of a laid back person, and I tend to prefer making a difference behind the scenes through education and through shattering stereotypes. And like you, I've worked on GSA-type stuff in school, and I saw the difference it made, when people realized they'd been mistaken, simply because they were open to new information and getting to know new people. In all fairness, I've also seen closed-minded jerks who refused to learn anything new or who openly gave us grief. At the end of the day, the ones that encouraged me were the ones that realized we (gay people) are people exactly like them, and once they got to know us, a lot of their misconceptions ended right there.
Maybe some people need a louder, more public role. I can understand that. It just isn't my style. And hey, maybe I'm an optimist. Maybe I meet people who are Christians or from other religions, and don't automatically assume that they're going to have an issue with me because I'm gay. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. I also agree that hate and bigotry will always exist, on both sides of the fence -- sizeable majorities of the religious and non-religious will probably always feel misunderstood and threatened by "the other side".
I don't think it's so bad that I don't want "a war", that I'd prefer education and conversation instead. It's just who I am, and I can't change that. I respect those here on this board who have different tactics. We're all different. Just because we're atheists doesn't mean there's a handbook we all follow. :)
There is no war on religion. Rather, people who do not like living in a secular society have discovered they can use it as a rallying cry for there war on secularism and rational thought.
Quote from: markmcdaniel on May 21, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
There is no war on religion. Rather, people who do not like living in a secular society have discovered they can use it as a rallying cry for there war on secularism and rational thought.
Exactly. Some theists do feel picked on because in the past their views have had an unreasonable influence on society and now that unreasonable element is being rolled back and they simply don't like it.
Seems to me there's a lot of truth in that. Christians in the UK have claimed that city councils officially changing from 'christmas' to 'winterval' is an attack on religion, whereas it's really much more a misguided attempt to avoid offending other faiths.
Quote from: Tank on May 21, 2012, 09:05:31 AM
Quote from: markmcdaniel on May 21, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
There is no war on religion. Rather, people who do not like living in a secular society have discovered they can use it as a rallying cry for there war on secularism and rational thought.
Exactly. Some theists do feel picked on because in the past their views have had an unreasonable influence on society and now that unreasonable element is being rolled back and they simply don't like it.
This! Whenever I hear some point of "proof" about the "war on religion" or "persecution of Christians" it's always something like "They won't even let our kids pray in school anymore!!!!" But that's obviously not true. Anybody can pray quietly to themselves at any time. Heck, they can even pray out loud if it's not disrupting class (for example, in the lunchroom before they eat.). Schools simply can't show favor for one religious belief over another by having an official, mandated school led prayer. So basically, if Christians can't force everyone else to pray too, there is a war on religion. ::) Ridiculous.
Quote from: Ali on May 21, 2012, 04:24:45 PM
This! Whenever I hear some point of "proof" about the "war on religion" or "persecution of Christians" it's always something like "They won't even let our kids pray in school anymore!!!!" But that's obviously not true. Anybody can pray quietly to themselves at any time. Heck, they can even pray out loud if it's not disrupting class (for example, in the lunchroom before they eat.). Schools simply can't show favor for one religious belief over another by having an official, mandated school led prayer. So basically, if Christians can't force everyone else to pray too, there is a war on religion. ::) Ridiculous.
Don't include Indiana in those schools. They are trying to push for a school wide prayer. ::)
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 07:14:47 AM
Just to be clear: I'm not in any way happy the religious are picking on her. And of course I'm standing by her side, the same way I'm standing by the side of anyone who gets picked on just for being themselves. Picking on someone for their sexual orientation or any other characteristic about them is flat out wrong. I've encountered bigotry and idiocy too, and I don't respect those who demonstrate those traits. But I don't automatically assume that just because someone believes in God, they're a bigot or an idiot. Not all the religious do pick on people. Those who are kind, decent human beings like the rest of us, I have respect for. Those who aren't kind or decent, I don't. That's it.
That's a good point -- I don't automatically assume bigotry or idiocy on the part of the religious either because I've known way too many religious who are not bigoted (and some who are gay themselves for that matter) and who are very intelligent. One of my most religious friends is a rocket scientist -- and I mean literally, a rocket scientist. Another is a civil engineer. I would find it very hard to believe that either of them doesn't understand logic and reason.
From what I've seen, religious belief has nothing to do with how smart someone is, it's more a matter of emotional needs. And yes, it's a bit of a crutch but I have emotional crutches in my life too, the fact that I don't have this particular one doesn't make me look down on those who do feel a need for it.
I think it does come down to respecting individuals who are kind and decent in their behavior toward others, and those people I've found coming from all walks of life and from all philosophical/religious backgrounds. And I find it useful to bear in mind that some of the non-religious can be real assholes too and over-step the bounds. Doesn't mean that makes it OK for the religious to do it, just that they are far from having a monopoly on it.
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 07:14:47 AM
Just to be clear: I'm not in any way happy the religious are picking on her. And of course I'm standing by her side, the same way I'm standing by the side of anyone who gets picked on just for being themselves. Picking on someone for their sexual orientation or any other characteristic about them is flat out wrong. I've encountered bigotry and idiocy too, and I don't respect those who demonstrate those traits. But I don't automatically assume that just because someone believes in God, they're a bigot or an idiot. Not all the religious do pick on people. Those who are kind, decent human beings like the rest of us, I have respect for. Those who aren't kind or decent, I don't. That's it.
This is exactly how I feel. I think it's very dangerous to generalize or stereotype all religious people that way. Yes, there's a segment that's loud, obnoxious, intolerant, and homophobic, and I welcome a fight with them anytime. But I know plenty of intelligent people who do believe in some form of god. I think they're wrong, of course, but I would never call them an "idiot" for it, nor are they bigoted.
Also, let's not forget there are gay catholics out there, such as Andrew Sullivan or former MA Senator Jarrett Barrios.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 21, 2012, 04:49:13 PM
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 07:14:47 AM
Just to be clear: I'm not in any way happy the religious are picking on her. And of course I'm standing by her side, the same way I'm standing by the side of anyone who gets picked on just for being themselves. Picking on someone for their sexual orientation or any other characteristic about them is flat out wrong. I've encountered bigotry and idiocy too, and I don't respect those who demonstrate those traits. But I don't automatically assume that just because someone believes in God, they're a bigot or an idiot. Not all the religious do pick on people. Those who are kind, decent human beings like the rest of us, I have respect for. Those who aren't kind or decent, I don't. That's it.
That's a good point -- I don't automatically assume bigotry or idiocy on the part of the religious either because I've known way too many religious who are not bigoted (and some who are gay themselves for that matter) and who are very intelligent. One of my most religious friends is a rocket scientist -- and I mean literally, a rocket scientist. Another is a civil engineer. I would find it very hard to believe that either of them doesn't understand logic and reason.
From what I've seen, religious belief has nothing to do with how smart someone is, it's more a matter of emotional needs. And yes, it's a bit of a crutch but I have emotional crutches in my life too, the fact that I don't have this particular one doesn't make me look down on those who do feel a need for it.
I think it does come down to respecting individuals who are kind and decent in their behavior toward others, and those people I've found coming from all walks of life and from all philosophical/religious backgrounds. And I find it useful to bear in mind that some of the non-religious can be real assholes too and over-step the bounds. Doesn't mean that makes it OK for the religious to do it, just that they are far from having a monopoly on it.
Very well said. Completely agree.
Quote from: Ali on May 21, 2012, 04:24:45 PM
Quote from: Tank on May 21, 2012, 09:05:31 AM
Quote from: markmcdaniel on May 21, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
There is no war on religion. Rather, people who do not like living in a secular society have discovered they can use it as a rallying cry for there war on secularism and rational thought.
Exactly. Some theists do feel picked on because in the past their views have had an unreasonable influence on society and now that unreasonable element is being rolled back and they simply don't like it.
This! Whenever I hear some point of "proof" about the "war on religion" or "persecution of Christians" it's always something like "They won't even let our kids pray in school anymore!!!!" But that's obviously not true. Anybody can pray quietly to themselves at any time. Heck, they can even pray out loud if it's not disrupting class (for example, in the lunchroom before they eat.). Schools simply can't show favor for one religious belief over another by having an official, mandated school led prayer. So basically, if Christians can't force everyone else to pray too, there is a war on religion. ::) Ridiculous.
This ^ ;D
Have you ever heard someone talk about 'spiritual warfare'? It's worth a good listen, if you want an amusing moment. Any perceived instance of "persecution" is like they're being nailed onto a cross themselves. ::)
Quote from: markmcdaniel on May 21, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
There is no war on religion. Rather, people who do not like living in a secular society have discovered they can use it as a rallying cry for there war on secularism and rational thought.
I disagree. A "War" implies that reason is not being used as a means to motivate, and that's what we have here and now on a wide-spread for the first time ever. Specifically, when religion is mocked, it is not reason at play, but the thrusting of shame and doubt upon the religious, and this is the basis of the Philosophical War that is currently taking place.
The front line of this war are the professional comedians that mock religion and in doing so provide intellectual ammo to a lot of atheists. A comedian like a Sam Kinnison or a George Carlin is worth 10 Richard Dawkins - and there are a lot of them out there making their message heard amongst young and old.
The Theists/Atheist Debate will not be decided in a Formal Debate, but as a joke told amongst friends at a gathering, or a party. Long before Theism dies, Atheism will have become the Zeitgeist of our culture.
Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on May 22, 2012, 05:26:12 AM
Long before Theism dies, Atheism will have become the Zeitgeist of our culture.
Perhaps, at least until theism or some other religion/superstition emotional crutch becomes the new zeitgeist again...
Mockery is not the same as war. Maybe a culture clash, a generational shift, an event, but a war?
Was there a war against hippies? There was a massive generational shift and lots of clashes in the street, much more so than between the atheists and religious folks these days, but no one ever calls that a war.
I really appreciate all the great discussion going on here on this topic! I want to reiterate though, my point that we are all victims of the detrimental effects of religion (superstition and nonsense) on a daily basis, owing to the LACK OF PROGRESS that we all could be making but aren't. I want to urge you all once again to watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti3mtDC2fQo&list=PLF3520A1942B13832&index=1&feature=plpp_video
As Neil puts it "What brilliance may have expressed itself and did not?"
Quote from: Firebird on May 22, 2012, 07:10:57 AM
Mockery is not the same as war. Maybe a culture clash, a generational shift, an event, but a war?
Was there a war against hippies? There was a massive generational shift and lots of clashes in the street, much more so than between the atheists and religious folks these days, but no one ever calls that a war.
In the broadest sense people are fighting to not let religion interfer in their lives as much as it's used to, and the word hardly seems to apply, but I would call forms of activism and counter-movements wars, based on definition number 4. The creationist movement trying to add that to science classes and the pushback opposing them would be called what, for instance? The new atheist movement is the result of an ideological war, which doesn't exclude religions from the right to exist, though. It's a fight for space.
Quotewar [wawr] Show IPA noun, verb, warred, war·ring, adjectivenoun
1.
a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.
2.
a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.
3.
a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: the War of 1812.
4.
active hostility or contention; conflict; contest: a war of words.
5.
aggressive business conflict, as through severe price cutting in the same industry or any other means of undermining competitors: a fare war among airlines; a trade war between nations.
From dictionary.com.
Quote from: Firebird on May 22, 2012, 07:10:57 AM
Mockery is not the same as war.
I like clever satire directed against religion and politicians of the right. There is a right aligned satirist that pisses me off though, he has adopted a voice dripping with lordly condescending disdain. He distorts things totally to gain favour with his audience but it has a polarising effect, he fills me with the urge to build a guillotine or find a Winter Palace to storm. So there is a danger that certain humour won't help the cause, Animated Dirt has expressed some discomfort with the Atheist Image Dump thread I think.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on May 23, 2012, 02:50:40 AM
Quote from: Firebird on May 22, 2012, 07:10:57 AM
Mockery is not the same as war.
I like clever satire directed against religion and politicians of the right. There is a right aligned satirist that pisses me off though, he has adopted a voice dripping with lordly condescending disdain. He distorts things totally to gain favour with his audience but it has a polarising effect, he fills me with the urge to build a guillotine or find a Winter Palace to storm. So there is a danger that certain humour won't help the cause, Animated Dirt has expressed some discomfort with the Atheist Image Dump thread I think.
Main problem with humour is that it won't help getting certain allies onto your side.
Quote from: Firebird on May 20, 2012, 09:04:04 AM
Why is it always a war on something? A "War on Christmas", a "war on religion", the "war against drugs", the "war on terrorism", etc. Any time you start attaching the term "war" as part of a policy argument or point of view, it becomes a simplistic caricature of the message, one that makes it far too simplistic. Also, saying the new atheists are declaring a "war on religion" is the perfect way to demonize them in the eyes of many in society, which is ultimately self-defeating.
I am not interested in a war against religion. I am interested in pushing for less religious influence in the public sphere, and more emphasis on actual science and reasoning instead. And for religion not to be shoved in my face, and to respect my atheist views. That's not a war against anything. It's an argument, and perhaps a campaign. Until some fundies start attacking me for my views and I have to figure out how to fire a gun to protect myself, I'm not at war with anything except the flies I fry with my electric flyswatter.
Well at least there's not a "war" on women according to Fox News. Oh wait....
Quote from: corgilover on May 23, 2012, 05:47:55 AM
Quote from: Firebird on May 20, 2012, 09:04:04 AM
Why is it always a war on something? A "War on Christmas", a "war on religion", the "war against drugs", the "war on terrorism", etc. Any time you start attaching the term "war" as part of a policy argument or point of view, it becomes a simplistic caricature of the message, one that makes it far too simplistic. Also, saying the new atheists are declaring a "war on religion" is the perfect way to demonize them in the eyes of many in society, which is ultimately self-defeating.
I am not interested in a war against religion. I am interested in pushing for less religious influence in the public sphere, and more emphasis on actual science and reasoning instead. And for religion not to be shoved in my face, and to respect my atheist views. That's not a war against anything. It's an argument, and perhaps a campaign. Until some fundies start attacking me for my views and I have to figure out how to fire a gun to protect myself, I'm not at war with anything except the flies I fry with my electric flyswatter.
Well at least there's not a "war" on women according to Fox News. Oh wait....
Well... according to fox news there is a war on a lot of things.
I don't consider myself fighting a "war on religion". i consider myself to be helping people find what they truly believe in. If it turns out that they truly believe in god (or some other religion) I respect that. As long as they respect me, I'll respect them.
This may be me, but is sounds a lot like the cultural struggles and conflicts that have be borne by humanity from the beginning of time. Not really new, in my opinion.
Quote from: RenegeReversi on May 26, 2012, 10:43:06 PM
This may be me, but is sounds a lot like the cultural struggles and conflicts that have be borne by humanity from the beginning of time. Not really new, in my opinion.
Yep. Just the terminology and technology have changed. And the key technology is the Internet and WWW which mean we all live in each others pockets. So in days gone by I'd have never heard of Fred Phelps and not cared about his behaviour, now I can't really avoid the arsehole. So what used to be an isolated idiot is now a cause celebré!
Quote from: RenegeReversi on May 26, 2012, 10:43:06 PM
This may be me, but is sounds a lot like the cultural struggles and conflicts that have be borne by humanity from the beginning of time. Not really new, in my opinion.
Not really new? I disagree. Here's a link to a short history of Atheism for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism
Also, can you point to a broad-based Atheist movement in History before the present? I don't think you can.
Thanks.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 22, 2012, 05:41:06 AM
Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on May 22, 2012, 05:26:12 AM
Long before Theism dies, Atheism will have become the Zeitgeist of our culture.
Perhaps, at least until theism or some other religion/superstition emotional crutch becomes the new zeitgeist again...
No doubt that many will gravitate to some other type of mumbo-jumbo belief in the supernatural. However, as long as we can dispel the belief of an all-powerful Gangsta God who will burn our arses in hell for eternity if we don't kiss his arse, then we will have come a long way to getting rid of some of the worst beliefs in society.
Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on May 30, 2012, 12:39:23 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 22, 2012, 05:41:06 AM
Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on May 22, 2012, 05:26:12 AM
Long before Theism dies, Atheism will have become the Zeitgeist of our culture.
Perhaps, at least until theism or some other religion/superstition emotional crutch becomes the new zeitgeist again...
No doubt that many will gravitate to some other type of mumbo-jumbo belief in the supernatural. However, as long as we can dispel the belief of an all-powerful Gangsta God who will burn our arses in hell for eternity if we don't kiss his arse, then we will have come a long way to getting rid of some of the worst beliefs in society.
Agreed.
Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on May 30, 2012, 12:39:23 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 22, 2012, 05:41:06 AM
Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on May 22, 2012, 05:26:12 AM
Long before Theism dies, Atheism will have become the Zeitgeist of our culture.
Perhaps, at least until theism or some other religion/superstition emotional crutch becomes the new zeitgeist again...
No doubt that many will gravitate to some other type of mumbo-jumbo belief in the supernatural. However, as long as we can dispel the belief of an all-powerful Gangsta God who will burn our arses in hell for eternity if we don't kiss his arse, then we will have come a long way to getting rid of some of the worst beliefs in society.
I agree, but this is a good example of something that's easier said than done. Immunisation against some sort of beliefs requires more than education, people have to feel little emotional need for them, which is IMO closer to utopic than something attainable. You have to give them something a little more productive and constructive instead.
Do I do think that there's no going back from the backlash movement that is 'new atheism', and all for the better too.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 30, 2012, 05:14:45 PM
I agree, but this is a good example of something that's easier said than done. Immunisation against some sort of beliefs requires more than education, people have to feel little emotional need for them, which is IMO closer to utopic than something attainable. You have to give them something a little more productive and constructive instead.
Do I do think that there's no going back from the backlash movement that is 'new atheism', and all for the better too.
This reminded me - I think a lot of people feel an emotional need for beliefs for sure, maybe because of the promise of heaven, never-ending life, an end to the pain of this world, etc -- they cling to hope when they don't feel like they have a lot of hope during their lives. I do understand their desire for something better, in a sense. That being said, I think what that need speaks to is a true lack of community outside many churches. People get into churches and become part of a 'family', in many cases - they find people in the churches who care about them, welcome them in, etc. If they didn't have this support network, many people feel like they'd really be missing a lot.
I think education is an excellent starting point. But we can't just educate people and stop there. We need to also support them in community, mentally, emotionally, etc. We're all social creatures, more or less. If we want people to be willing to consider something other than religion, we need to develop programs and groups that'll assist them once they're no longer a part of a religion. Some groups have done good work on this front, but we can always do more. We can counsel them, meet with them, befriend them. It doesn't even need to be a formal group, really -- more the chance to meet with one's community, share time, meals, drinks, make friends, etc.
Until we can develop the emotional support networks that religious groups are pretty good at, we won't get as many people as we'd like to, with just education, although as I said, education will go a long ways towards helping, I think.
Quote from: Amicale on May 31, 2012, 04:37:55 AM
This reminded me - I think a lot of people feel an emotional need for beliefs for sure, maybe because of the promise of heaven, never-ending life, an end to the pain of this world, etc -- they cling to hope when they don't feel like they have a lot of hope during their lives. I do understand their desire for something better, in a sense. That being said, I think what that need speaks to is a true lack of community outside many churches. People get into churches and become part of a 'family', in many cases - they find people in the churches who care about them, welcome them in, etc. If they didn't have this support network, many people feel like they'd really be missing a lot.
I think education is an excellent starting point. But we can't just educate people and stop there. We need to also support them in community, mentally, emotionally, etc. We're all social creatures, more or less. If we want people to be willing to consider something other than religion, we need to develop programs and groups that'll assist them once they're no longer a part of a religion. Some groups have done good work on this front, but we can always do more. We can counsel them, meet with them, befriend them. It doesn't even need to be a formal group, really -- more the chance to meet with one's community, share time, meals, drinks, make friends, etc.
Until we can develop the emotional support networks that religious groups are pretty good at, we won't get as many people as we'd like to, with just education, although as I said, education will go a long ways towards helping, I think.
Excellent point. I think this is one of the main reasons that religion manages to have such a sway on people, and it's admittedly a good reason. We're social creatures by nature. This was one reason I previously asked what non-theistic organizations HAF members are part of, as I think it's something I'd want to do someday.
There shouldn't be a war on religion,
Religion is benign
There should be a war on morality though.
I wouldn't have any problems what so ever with religions that don't push/fight for their morality.