This year and last, a friend of mine has decided that he doesn't believe in god. Kudos to him and from this point on, I'll give him the fake name "Gabe". Gabe's parents are his big obstacle here though. They go to church three to four times a week, and really pressure the poor guy into getting baptized, but he's just not interested, and can't tell them for fear of punishment or having to go to church even more.
I wonder though, if he doesn't believe because of himself and his ideals, or because he's just sick of going to church. Should I encourage him to tell them, or for him to ride it out until he moves out? Should I address my concern about the reason for his shift in ideology? Any good stories similar to this one?
In most situations like this, it's better for the child just to ride it out. Sadly dogma can trump parental responsibility for some people and they could use this as an excuse to 'lock-down' his life.
Quote from: Velma on May 18, 2012, 04:00:06 AM
In most situations like this, it's better for the child just to ride it out. Sadly dogma can trump parental responsibility for some people and they could use this as an excuse to 'lock-down' his life.
Velma gives good advise.
^ I agree.
Yeah, I kind of agree with everyone else. How old is your friend?
I remember reading a letter that someone wrote in to Dan Savage - it was a gay teen with really bigoted/religious parents. His advice was really similar, when you're a minor, there's a legal power dynamic that you really can't fight (yet).
I agree, assuming your friend is a kid or is otherwise not ready to stand alone if he has to.
If he can stand alone, however, my advise is to take the chance and confront them now rather than wait until later.
EDIT: Another assumption is that the theatre of this particular problem is the US. We are pretty much back at advise two if in the civilised world :P
I would say wait it out. As long as you are under 18 your parents are in control for the most part.
I have to agree with everyone else. If your friend is still too young to provide for himself, it's best to just keep it to himself until he is able to move out.
I would like to hear more about the situation before I make a final weigh in. The reason for this is, in general I agree with the concensus that riding it out is probably the best course if your friend is not yet of age, but with the caveat that I think that some situations are so toxic as to potentially be damaging (the example I was thinking of was a gay teen hearing 3-4x a week from his parents and peers that homosexuals are "sinners" et cetera.) If I had to go to church 3x a week, it would be an annoyance, but no more than that because I am too old and cynical to be vulnerable to the mumbo jumbo. This may not be the case for your friend, depending on the situation and his temperment, and if it is damaging, I would advise that he tell someone. Tell his parents, tell his guidance councelor, et cetera, before those messages get too deeply internalized.
As for confronting his friend about "why" he has embraced atheism....meh....honestly. If he's the age I'm picturing (high school) then trying on different hats and identities, including a bit of rebellion, is an entirely appropriate developmental task. Leave him to it. If he's older, one hopes that he is no longer so under the thumb of his parents that he feels a need to rebel for rebellion's sake. If he does, that's all the more reason for him to try to find a way to move out.
Well, even if he isn't 18, they cant force him to go to church; only school.
Hopefully he is old enough. For now, all you can do is talk to him via txt or email. Give him your opinions, but try not to pressure him yourself, or you'd be as bad as his parents.
Good luck with everything.
They should do whatever feels right to them. Sometimes taking the path of least resistance is the easiest option even if it goes against your/their ideology, with some people its best to let them think they are in control. After all a baptism is only a bit of nonsense and water.
Well, personally, I'd nearly go to war over baptism. But then, even as a 15-16 year old, I was able to live with quite a bit of scorched earth.
It comes down to the personalities of those involved, this particular friend's priorities and what happenes in the worst and the best case.
as someone in her thirties and still afraid of telling her parents (lol i know!), i would just try to be there for him whenever he needs you as a friend. i wouldn't try to push him into telling them if he's not ready, as everyone else has said. his time will come. i do hope that all their nonsense doesnt get too inbedded in him before then.
all the best x
Quote from: kitty on May 19, 2012, 10:37:32 AM
as someone in her thirties and still afraid of telling her parents (lol i know!)
Why? Are you trying to protect them, yourself or both? Or are you just afraid of a good confrontation?
Quote from: AsmoIt comes down to the personalities of those involved, this particular friend's priorities and what happenes in the worst and the best case.
Exactly. And ...
Quote from: TolkienAdvice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 19, 2012, 12:28:13 PM
Quote from: kitty on May 19, 2012, 10:37:32 AM
as someone in her thirties and still afraid of telling her parents (lol i know!)
Why? Are you trying to protect them, yourself or both? Or are you just afraid of a good confrontation?
Why are you afraid?
Come on now....
I'm pretty sure it was Rich Lyons on the Living After Faith podcast who once made this comment (paraphrased) about skeptic/atheist people who are still living with religious family members: if you can't afford to move out and support yourself and you're reasonably sure that you'd be forced to if you told your family about your atheism, then wait it out. Use the time under their roof to learn as much as you can, read as much as you can, talk with people online if you can, and do your best to just be yourself - be as helpful, polite and considerate as you've ever been. When the time comes to get your stuff together and move out, that's when you can tell your family about your ideas, and because you'll have more of a firm grasp of the arguments and because you will have had the same consistent personality all along, they're much less likely to freak out. You'd be able to talk with them more reasonably, since your atheism won't be new to you anymore, and you'll be able to remind them that all along, you've been who you always have been. I thought it was good advice, anyhow.
Of course, if your friend thinks he may be able to calmly speak with them about his ideas now without getting kicked out, then that would be even more reasonable. Not that my experience mirrors anyone else's (and I'm not talking about strict, insane families), but I've found that in time, your family can generally get used to an awful lot you never imagined they'd be able to get used to.
You know, getting kicked out of the house might not be bad for you under certain circumstances. Generally, I would not advise someone to avoid that at all costs without knowing their background.
Horrible situation when the love of parents is dependent on their kid believing in an imaginary god.
I don't think I'd be happy at all living with that guillotine hanging over my head. Some gay kids must have a similar situation.
I know if it were me I'd be honest and straight up and face whatever consequences that would have.
I wouldn't allow others to pressure me into living a lie.
But depending on personality, that may not be good advice for this kid.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 19, 2012, 08:18:35 PM
You know, getting kicked out of the house might not be bad for you under certain circumstances. Generally, I would not advise someone to avoid that at all costs without knowing their background.
I wouldn't advise someone to avoid getting kicked out at all costs without knowing their background either. I've had friends who got kicked out in their mid teens for several different reasons, and a few have told me that crashing on friends' couches and/or staying in shelters or youth centers was preferable to the violence or emotional abuse they faced back at "home".
Everyone has individual circumstances, but I'd say generally that if your circumstances at home are manageable, tolerable and do not involve any sort of abuse (rather, that they mostly just involve annoyance and inconvenience) then staying would at least guarantee someone a safe place to sleep, food to eat, and perhaps other types of stability until they're able to move out on their own. But again, if someone feels like they'll be in personal danger by staying, then getting kicked out or leaving voluntarily could potentially be best. It really all depends.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 19, 2012, 09:18:45 AM
Well, personally, I'd nearly go to war over baptism. But then, even as a 15-16 year old, I was able to live with quite a bit of scorched earth.
I would too, but that was when I was young. I just knew I didn't want it but didn't really care to know why. These days I wouldn't want to be part of the statistics on how many of a certain religion (which is assumed if you're baptised) and would refuse on those grounds.
Oh, even at that age, I would have had some clear and numerous reasons for my refusal, but I would only voice them if asked.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 19, 2012, 12:28:13 PM
Quote from: kitty on May 19, 2012, 10:37:32 AM
as someone in her thirties and still afraid of telling her parents (lol i know!)
Why? Are you trying to protect them, yourself or both? Or are you just afraid of a good confrontation?
haha, no i'm not afraid of a good confrontation. i think i'm just trying to protect her, i know how much it means to her, how distraught she is about my sister not being a believer any more. she's my mum, and i love her, thats it. i just dont want to hurt her feelings, but it's inevitable.
Quote from: Amicale on May 19, 2012, 08:47:40 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 19, 2012, 08:18:35 PM
You know, getting kicked out of the house might not be bad for you under certain circumstances. Generally, I would not advise someone to avoid that at all costs without knowing their background.
I wouldn't advise someone to avoid getting kicked out at all costs without knowing their background either. I've had friends who got kicked out in their mid teens for several different reasons, and a few have told me that crashing on friends' couches and/or staying in shelters or youth centers was preferable to the violence or emotional abuse they faced back at "home".
Everyone has individual circumstances, but I'd say generally that if your circumstances at home are manageable, tolerable and do not involve any sort of abuse (rather, that they mostly just involve annoyance and inconvenience) then staying would at least guarantee someone a safe place to sleep, food to eat, and perhaps other types of stability until they're able to move out on their own. But again, if someone feels like they'll be in personal danger by staying, then getting kicked out or leaving voluntarily could potentially be best. It really all depends.
agreed. tis good advice.
Quote from: kitty on May 20, 2012, 01:45:54 PM
i just dont want to hurt her feelings, but it's inevitable.
On some level, I understand that. However, I think I'd be more hurt by having been lied to for years than by a straight-forward disagreement with some of my core ideals.
Unless she's like 95yrs old (which i doubt...)
... Well, whatever. Do as you please. You are an adult. :)
Quote from: Velma on May 18, 2012, 04:00:06 AM
In most situations like this, it's better for the child just to ride it out. Sadly dogma can trump parental responsibility for some people and they could use this as an excuse to 'lock-down' his life.
yea i agree
Welcome. I am going to have to go with Ali on this one.