This was prompted by a friend who trained for the priesthood (he didn't complete the course though) and subsequently lost his faith, which led to the question of what priests do when that happens, as it probably does sometimes. By using the term priests I include imams, rabbis and other similar professions.
There are two issues. The personal one is what the individual chooses to do, whether to continue in his job and preach things which he doesn't believe in, or leave and start another career. The latter would potentially be a problem since losing your job in (say) middle age and maybe your tied accomodation would be tough.
Then there is the question of how many clergy - of whatever level - really believe what they say. Some percentage may well have taken the first option and continued their career. How would the congregation feel if they knew?
Maybe there are some people here in this position?
Hello and welcome to HAF, Cirio. :blue smiley:
There is at least one member of this site whose life reflects some aspects of your post, but I'll let him speak for himself here, if he wants to.
Have you heard of the Clergy Project (http://clergyproject.org/)?
Thanks for your welcome.
No, I hadn't heard of that project, I'll have a look. Thanks for the link.
Hmm, I looked at your link. This is the summary of one guy's story:
"I was just doing my job, studying the Bible, asking questions, and seeking answers. If it makes you uncomfortable that a devout and passionate pastor can come to the place where he no longer believes in the God of the Bible – so be it. Be uncomfortable. Be bothered. You really should be (we all should be). But, please, resist the urge to make me a villain. If you are angry that someone stood in the pulpit and told you things that aren't true. I hear you. I know your pain. The same exact thing happened to me."
Pity he doesn't apologise.
QuotePity he doesn't apologise.
Not sure that he needs to actually say, "I am sorry . . ." When his faith meant something to him he was doing no more than any "proselytising" athiest might do, trying to spread the idea that his belief is the right one.
During the transition phase he is, perhaps, to be pitied. In a mental/emotional/intellectual turmoil could he be truly held responsible for not being able to just shout, "Shit!", throw the bible on the fire, walk out and never look back?
Once having broken the ties some expression of remorse might be appropriate. I think he achieved that.
Religion requires some sort of expiation in a positive form for "sins" committed. Are we not more understanding and accepting of individual circumstance and experience than that where the transition is sincere?
If not we should be!
I think if you make a mistake and mislead people, maybe make their lives and others worse, then you should apologise. He didn't do that. It was all, me, me, I was just doing my job, that's the excuse of people down the ages.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 07:02:29 PM
Hmm, I looked at your link. This is the summary of one guy's story:
"I was just doing my job, studying the Bible, asking questions, and seeking answers. If it makes you uncomfortable that a devout and passionate pastor can come to the place where he no longer believes in the God of the Bible – so be it. Be uncomfortable. Be bothered. You really should be (we all should be). But, please, resist the urge to make me a villain. If you are angry that someone stood in the pulpit and told you things that aren't true. I hear you. I know your pain. The same exact thing happened to me."
Pity he doesn't apologise.
Link to full text. (http://clergyproject.org/james-jim-morgan/)
From reading the above, I don't think that he has a lot to apologise for. Yes, for two years after he finally fully lost his faith, he continued to fulfill the function of pastor to his community, but I question how much we can say that he even maybe made their lives and the lives of others worse. As he describes in the beginning of the essay, he himself was helped by his association with the church. It's a complex situation, and rarely if ever can I say that these people were wrong to do what they did, if they weren't merely bilking people out of money. In fact, even assuming that people like Creflo Dollar and Joel Osteen are sincere in their beliefs, I'm more likely to find fault with that sort of preacher than somebody like Morgan.
QuoteBut, over the course of the next ten years, I slowly came to the realization that I was wrong – that my teachers and pastors, all those voices on the cassette tapes, were themselves very wrong. Not evil, not dumb, not charlatans – just... blinded by good intentions and wishful thinking, ignorant and misinformed. Just like me.
If you think it's OK to lie to people for two years then I guess he did nothing wrong. What did he preach during that time? He doesn't say, so you don't know what the effect on the congregation was.
The broader picture is how many others don't believe what they're preaching but keep on doing it, for whatever reason: security, habit, money, power, influence.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 09:01:42 PM
I think if you make a mistake and mislead people, maybe make their lives and others worse, then you should apologise. He didn't do that. It was all, me, me, I was just doing my job, that's the excuse of people down the ages.
Yes, I agree that there was a degree of seeking "forgivehess" there - to be exoected I think.
We do not know how long ago this man decided he had to get out of his predicament before writing this. I would wager on "not long". This would be a traumaticcevent in most people's lives, not conducive to straight thinking.
When breaking a longish emotional bond, with a parther say, it can take a long time, maybe years of heart rending tension and insincerity, before the break is finally made. Then it can be a case of sudden anger, just walking out, considered apology or grovelling guilt. Out of those perhaps the middle two are the sanest, if one is not quite a mature action.
All for condidered apology, if or when the individual is capable. If not capable is that due to the trauma or to some personsality disorder, maybe sociopathy?
Someone in a position of trust such as this has to consider things beyond his own situation. Once he realised his position was untenable he should have withdrawn so as to resolve his own issues. Then he should have tried to correct the results of his mistaken actions.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 09:57:15 PM
If you think it's OK to lie to people for two years then I guess he did nothing wrong.
Lying is a pretty much universal thing in human relations. The issue is finding the level of harm created by lying.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 09:57:15 PMWhat did he preach during that time? He doesn't say, so you don't know what the effect on the congregation was.
Yes, I agree, which is why I don't consider myself in a position to judge this person.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 09:57:15 PMThe broader picture is how many others don't believe what they're preaching but keep on doing it, for whatever reason: security, habit, money, power, influence.
That's what makes the Clergy Project interesting to me.
Quote from: Recusant on August 14, 2016, 10:14:25 PM
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 09:57:15 PM
If you think it's OK to lie to people for two years then I guess he did nothing wrong.
Lying is a pretty much universal thing in human relations. The issue is finding the level of harm created by lying.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 09:57:15 PMWhat did he preach during that time? He doesn't say, so you don't know what the effect on the congregation was.
Yes, I agree, which is why I don't consider myself in a position to judge this person.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 09:57:15 PMThe broader picture is how many others don't believe what they're preaching but keep on doing it, for whatever reason: security, habit, money, power, influence.
That's what makes the Clergy Project interesting to me.
That's a very cynical comment, and one I don't agree with. You should consider your moral position.
I'd lke to know what he preached during that time.
The project seems dedicated to support for the clergy with little regard for the people who were abused.
The sort of priest/vicar who should apologise is one we had near here until he retired.
He got banned from two pubs for being abusive, did his best to ruin the open governance system at the parochial school, refused to do anything about his church users completely blocking the pavement outside his church with their cars, tried to cancel some one's wedding when he decided to go on holiday (at least the church authorities came down like a ton of bricks on that one - he did not go on holiday!) He was not a nice man.
The man in question, as Recusant implied, tried to do his job despite his misgivings. I would not likevto say whether this was from not wishing to openly challenge the beliefs if his parishioners, a genuine pastoral stance, or for fear of his own future. Both would be humanly valid if at opposite ends if the altruism spectrum.
Quote from: Gloucester on August 14, 2016, 10:23:21 PM
The sort of priest/vicar who should apologise is one we had near here until he retired.
He got banned from two pubs for being abusive, did his best to ruin the open governance system at the parochial school, refused to do anything about his church users completely blocking the pavement outside his church with their cars, tried to cancel some one's wedding when he decided to go on holiday (at least the church authorities came down like a ton of bricks on that one - he did not go on holiday!) He was not a nice man.
The man in question, as Recusant implied, tried to do his job despite his misgivings. I would not likevto say whether this was from not wishing to openly challenge the beliefs if his parishioners, a genuine pastoral stance, or for fear of his own future. Both would be humanly valid if at opposite ends if the altruism spectrum.
Clearly the old man should have gone, but that's not the point.
Should you try to do your job when you know it's wrong? If you need the employment/accomodation, then that's understandable, maybe. The other reasons? Dubious, at least.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM
I'd lke to know what he preached during that time.
Probably the same old same old.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM
The project seems dedicated to support for the clergy with little regard for the people who were abused.
I am sure the everloving church gave the parishioners all the councelling and sermonising they needed.
I would like to know your qualifications for judging another's morals on a brief encounter ofvthis type. Opinion is one thing, but needs stating as such.
Quote from: Gloucester on August 14, 2016, 10:32:25 PM
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM
I'd lke to know what he preached during that time.
Probably the same old same old.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM
The project seems dedicated to support for the clergy with little regard for the people who were abused.
I am sure the everloving church gave the parishioners all the councelling and sermonising they needed.
I would like to know your qualifications for judging another's morals on a brief encounter ofvthis type. Opinion is one thing, but needs stating as such.
Same as anyone else, buddy. We all have an opinion. Unless you're saying that newbies don't get a voice.
Sometimes being untruthful, to protect people, to put them at ease, is what is called for, and that's just the way it is. People may not like it, but that's too bad. Life is full of things that people don't like, or think is wrong, but you know what, life does not give a shit. Never has, never will.
Quote from: No one on August 14, 2016, 10:37:22 PM
Sometimes being untruthful, to protect people, to put them at ease, is what is called for, and that's just the way it is. People may not like it, but that's too bad. Life is full of things that people don't like, or think is wrong, but you know what, life does not give a shit. Never has, never will.
I disagree with that, on many levels. No one should be that cynical.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:30:01 PM
Should you try to do your job when you know it's wrong? If you need the employment/accomodation, then that's understandable, maybe. The other reasons? Dubious, at least.
Betcha there are more than a few priests, of any variety, working under false pretenses! And that excluding actual abuse of people of any age in any way.
But, speaking of abuse . . . Took decades to get a whole religious sect to appologise for centuries of wholesale abuse of various kinds. And even that has not solved the problem yet.
Religion can be as destructive and disruptive a force as it claims to be a uniting one. As great a source of hatred as one of love. Please apply your opinion and your moral values to the whole edifice if you see no balance in the case of this individual.
Later thought: should not the whole of religion apologise to the believers for centuries of telling them lies?
Why not? I call them like I see them. The human being is an insignificant insect. If you don't like the way life is, too bad.
That was one of the points of the OP, I don't know why you're repeating it.
I made no comment about the RCC if that's what you're referring to.
We know about the corrosive effects of religion.
Note: this was a reply to Gloucester.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:55:23 PM
That was one of the points of the OP, I don't know why you're repeating it.
I made no comment about the RCC if that's what you're referring to.
We know about the corrosive effects of religion.
Note: this was a reply to Gloucester.
OK, getting past this old fogie's sleep time (since I am medically warned off nice, caffeine rich beverages!)
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM
That's a very cynical comment . . .
I admit to being cynical, though "very" cynical is a judgment call. :)
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM. . .and one I don't agree with. You should consider your moral position.
Disagreement in this context is good; it makes for more stimulating and interesting discussions. I will contemplate your admonishment in the wee hours as I lament my many failings.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PMThe project seems dedicated to support for the clergy with little regard for the people who were abused.
It's called the Clergy Project for a reason.
Do you believe that a failure to be perfectly honest is always equal to abuse?
Quote from: Recusant on August 14, 2016, 11:04:25 PM
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM
That's a very cynical comment . . .
I admit to being cynical, though "very" cynical is a judgment call. :)
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM. . .and one I don't agree with. You should consider your moral position.
Disagreement in this context is good; it makes for more stimulating and interesting discussions. I will contemplate your admonishment in the wee hours as I lament my many failings.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PMThe project seems dedicated to support for the clergy with little regard for the people who were abused.
It's called the Clergy Project for a reason.
Do you believe that a failure to be perfectly honest is always equal to abuse?
Being cynical or very cynical is a bad trait.
You sound very pompous, tbh.
It would be helpful if a project to support clergy who lose their faith would also consider those who have been misled. It might help the next generation to mitigate their ..... errors. I was about to say sins.
Deliberately misleading people could have effects on their lives which would be considered abuse. Many companies and banks have been sued for that kind of thing.
QuoteYou sound very pompous, tbh.
Hah!
Quote from: Gloucester on August 14, 2016, 11:19:15 PM
QuoteYou sound very pompous, tbh.
Hah!
Anyoneo know if the kettle has posted yet?
Quote from: No one on August 14, 2016, 10:37:22 PM
Sometimes being untruthful, to protect people, to put them at ease, is what is called for, and that's just the way it is. People may not like it, but that's too bad. Life is full of things that people don't like, or think is wrong, but you know what, life does not give a shit. Never has, never will.
Plus, there is the fact that pastor or priest is the only job they are trained to do. Those that have a degree, usually have one in some sort of theology or Bible history - such degrees don't really have much cross-over to other areas. So, to support yourself and your family, you don't let on that you now think it is all bunk. You also have to factor in that, once the disbelief is made known, all those people who called him friend will turn on him faster than a rabid dog and force them out of both their home (since many churches provide housing for their pastors) and their job. It takes a lot of strength to be able to cut yourself off from your entire physical social network and safety net.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 11:17:39 PM
Being cynical or very cynical is a bad trait.
You sound very pompous, tbh.
Let's just work on one of my character flaws at a time, shall we? :teadrink:
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 11:17:39 PMIt would be helpful if a project to support clergy who lose their faith would also consider those who have been misled. It might help the next generation to mitigate their ..... errors. I was about to say sins.
Deliberately misleading people could have effects on their lives which would be considered abuse. Many companies and banks have been sued for that kind of thing.
Given that it's entirely possible for a person to believe that their work in the church is having a positive effect on the community even though that person no longer believes in the religion, hypothetical ill effects may not even enter into their consideration of the situation. They may be mistaken, but again, I don't consider myself in a position to judge them, especially not in a case like Morgan's, where I don't know anything about what he was actually preaching, nor what else his work at the church entailed.
Malfeasance by a corporation or a bank is something we can objectively measure. Can you objectively measure the hypothetical harm caused by an atheist minister? What sort of harm are you talking about?
Quote from: Velma on August 14, 2016, 11:38:23 PM
Plus, there is the fact that pastor or priest is the only job they are trained to do. Those that have a degree, usually have one in some sort of theology or Bible history - such degrees don't really have much cross-over to other areas. So, to support yourself and your family, you don't let on that you now think it is all bunk. You also have to factor in that, once the disbelief is made known, all those people who called him friend will turn on him faster than a rabid dog and force them out of both their home (since many churches provide housing for their pastors) and their job. It takes a lot of strength to be able to cut yourself off from your entire physical social network and safety net.
Indeed, indeed. To add to that, I'd be willing to bet both of my testicles that if a priest, rabbi, or imam, were just to come out and say, this is all hogwash and god is make believe, there would be some kind of uproar. Maybe rather than be the one who struck that match that ignited that powder keg, he decided to stifle his own beliefs for the sake of others. The needs of the many outweigh, the needs of the few, or the one.
Sometimes things happen in life that people don't like. Sometimes people do things that people don't like. Sometime people make judgment calls that don't pan out. When this happens, it's real easy to have the arm chair quarterback, hindsight is 20/20 mentality and condemn them for doing so. As I said, there are times in life where untruthfulness is less painful than the truth and is the most viable option at the time. How many parents are going to tell their 4 year old that mommy/daddy isn't going to get better, and is going to die, even though they know that is the outcome until they absolutely have to?
Hi, another cynical poster here. :wave hi:
Thing is, looks like you're over simplifying what can be a complex situation involving so many factors. If only life were that easy for everyone! It's not.
Even good people lie, and lies can be justified. Would you consider telling a believer on their deathbed that God doesn't exist?
Quote from: Recusant on August 14, 2016, 11:48:40 PM
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 11:17:39 PM
Being cynical or very cynical is a bad trait.
You sound very pompous, tbh.
Let's just work on one of my character flaws at a time, shall we? :teadrink:
...
:reading:
Yeah,
Cirio, don't go too fast, man...One at a time, man...One at at time.
:snicker:
I know we've only just met but when you're finished listing Recusant's flaws can you tell me mine? I really want to be able to claim the moral highground in all of my relationships. I was told I can be rather sarcastic but it's not true. ::)
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 15, 2016, 02:08:30 AM
I know we've only just met but when you're finished listing Recusant's flaws can you tell me mine? I really want to be able to claim the moral highground in all of my relationships. I was told I can be rather sarcastic but it's not true. ::)
Ooh! Can I be next!? :computerwave:
Come on now you two, we love you just the way you are. Don't ever, change for anyone.
Quote from: No one on August 15, 2016, 02:34:49 AM
Come on now you two, we love you just the way you are. Don't ever, change for anyone.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.pandawhale.com%2F121195-Littlefinger-cheers-gif-Imgur-uKnT.gif&hash=9f1b18d6bbdeb530d5efc118ea7a42e3ea1a91bb)
Quote from: No one on August 15, 2016, 12:33:32 AM
Quote from: Velma on August 14, 2016, 11:38:23 PM
Plus, there is the fact that pastor or priest is the only job they are trained to do. Those that have a degree, usually have one in some sort of theology or Bible history - such degrees don't really have much cross-over to other areas. So, to support yourself and your family, you don't let on that you now think it is all bunk. You also have to factor in that, once the disbelief is made known, all those people who called him friend will turn on him faster than a rabid dog and force them out of both their home (since many churches provide housing for their pastors) and their job. It takes a lot of strength to be able to cut yourself off from your entire physical social network and safety net.
Indeed, indeed. To add to that, I'd be willing to bet both of my testicles that if a priest, rabbi, or imam, were just to come out and say, this is all hogwash and god is make believe, there would be some kind of uproar. Maybe rather than be the one who struck that match that ignited that powder keg, he decided to stifle his own beliefs for the sake of others. The needs of the many outweigh, the needs of the few, or the one.
Sometimes things happen in life that people don't like. Sometimes people do things that people don't like. Sometime people make judgment calls that don't pan out. When this happens, it's real easy to have the arm chair quarterback, hindsight is 20/20 mentality and condemn them for doing so. As I said, there are times in life where untruthfulness is less painful than the truth and is the most viable option at the time. How many parents are going to tell their 4 year old that mommy/daddy isn't going to get better, and is going to die, even though they know that is the outcome until they absolutely have to?
I've read some of the stories of pastors who have lost their faith. Many of them do wind up staying, at least for a time, because they have no other options. It takes time to get prepared for another, secular job and to save up the money to move to new living quarters. Religious leaders who have let it be known they have lost their faith, have received death threats against them and their families.
It is easy to sit back and judge. However, these people are leaving the only life they have known for years. It is not done easily or lightly. If keeping a job that provides food, clothing, and shelter for me and my family requires faking it for a time, then so be it. Heck, it is not like the flock is living in the light of truth as it is.
Quote from: No one on August 15, 2016, 02:34:49 AM
Come on now you two, we love you just the way you are. Don't ever, change for anyone.
Thanks, No one! :grin:
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:41:59 PM
Quote from: No one on August 14, 2016, 10:37:22 PM
Sometimes being untruthful, to protect people, to put them at ease, is what is called for, and that's just the way it is. People may not like it, but that's too bad. Life is full of things that people don't like, or think is wrong, but you know what, life does not give a shit. Never has, never will.
I disagree with that, on many levels. No one should be that cynical.
Except you.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:35:36 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on August 14, 2016, 10:32:25 PM
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM
I'd lke to know what he preached during that time.
Probably the same old same old.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM
The project seems dedicated to support for the clergy with little regard for the people who were abused.
I am sure the everloving church gave the parishioners all the councelling and sermonising they needed.
I would like to know your qualifications for judging another's morals on a brief encounter ofvthis type. Opinion is one thing, but needs stating as such.
Same as anyone else, buddy. We all have an opinion. Unless you're saying that newbies don't get a voice.
Really?
Quote from: No one on August 14, 2016, 10:47:11 PM
Why not? I call them like I see them. The human being is an insignificant insect mammal. If you don't like the way life is, too bad.
:fixed:
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 11:17:39 PM
Quote from: Recusant on August 14, 2016, 11:04:25 PM
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM
That's a very cynical comment . . .
I admit to being cynical, though "very" cynical is a judgment call. :)
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PM. . .and one I don't agree with. You should consider your moral position.
Disagreement in this context is good; it makes for more stimulating and interesting discussions. I will contemplate your admonishment in the wee hours as I lament my many failings.
Quote from: Cirio on August 14, 2016, 10:23:09 PMThe project seems dedicated to support for the clergy with little regard for the people who were abused.
It's called the Clergy Project for a reason.
Do you believe that a failure to be perfectly honest is always equal to abuse?
Being cynical or very cynical is a bad trait.
You sound very pompous, tbh.
It would be helpful if a project to support clergy who lose their faith would also consider those who have been misled. It might help the next generation to mitigate their ..... errors. I was about to say sins.
Deliberately misleading people could have effects on their lives which would be considered abuse. Many companies and banks have been sued for that kind of thing.
How many of Recusants post of you read? I'll tell you. Not enough.
While you are ripping somebody else off for their behaviour let me explain your behaviour to you. Arrogant, opinionated and frankly rude. You're behaving like some teenage punk who walks into a country pub and starts challenging the locals to knock a chip of his shoulder. I await your reply with great interest.
Quote from: Tank on August 15, 2016, 06:41:26 AM
... I await your reply with great interest.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FT6kzaE0.gif&hash=c93ea4a685388cf18b7ff519bdc257a08d0f7bcb)
Nothing, yet?
Quote from: VelmaIt is easy to sit back and judge. However, these people are leaving the only life they have known for years. It is not done easily or lightly. If keeping a job that provides food, clothing, and shelter for me and my family requires faking it for a time, then so be it. Heck, it is not like the flock is living in the light of truth as it is.
I agree. Also, is there really a clear point in time when faith must be considered lost? Or rather, would there not be a fuzzy area in which nothing is clear enough to make life-changing decisions?
Quote from: OldGit on August 15, 2016, 05:21:53 PM
Quote from: VelmaIt is easy to sit back and judge. However, these people are leaving the only life they have known for years. It is not done easily or lightly. If keeping a job that provides food, clothing, and shelter for me and my family requires faking it for a time, then so be it. Heck, it is not like the flock is living in the light of truth as it is.
I agree. Also, is there really a clear point in time when faith must be considered lost? Or rather, would there not be a fuzzy area in which nothing is clear enough to make life-changing decisions?
And as with any break with a deeply held belief, admitting to one's self that, "It is all over," can be a life shattering event, full of guilt. It is natural for some to attempt to maintain the status quo, put it off.
Quote from: Tank on August 15, 2016, 06:34:04 AM
Quote from: No one on August 14, 2016, 10:47:11 PM
Why not? I call them like I see them. The human being is an insignificant insect mammal. If you don't like the way life is, too bad.
:fixed:
Thanks, but I was using the term in the most demeaning way possible. I know humans aren't literally insects, but cosmically speaking, it describes them pretty well. Actually, if you think about it, they are straight up microscopic.
Quote from: No one on August 15, 2016, 07:51:36 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 15, 2016, 06:34:04 AM
Quote from: No one on August 14, 2016, 10:47:11 PM
Why not? I call them like I see them. The human being is an insignificant insect mammal. If you don't like the way life is, too bad.
:fixed:
Thanks, but I was using the term in the most demeaning way possible. I know humans aren't literally insects, but cosmically speaking, it describes them pretty well. Actually, if you think about it, they are straight up microscopic.
I got your point. Couldn't keep my inner geek at bay.
Sometimes my points are like a thorn in one's side.
Quote from: No one on August 15, 2016, 08:22:14 PM
Sometimes my points are like a thorn in one's side.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgiant.gfycat.com%2FAnxiousNeglectedBarnswallow.gif&hash=c3467275eff427a950d6890e84f38ced0e14a7a2)
Are you laughing with me, or at me?
I'm laughing at your statement.
Because I'm so rosy?
Because your statement was hilarious.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.iwastesomuchtime.com%2F815201601144877200.jpg&hash=11277f308714cc06dd7d7967b6f864f066d0d14f)
Quote from: Gloucester on August 15, 2016, 05:44:57 PM
Quote from: OldGit on August 15, 2016, 05:21:53 PM
Quote from: VelmaIt is easy to sit back and judge. However, these people are leaving the only life they have known for years. It is not done easily or lightly. If keeping a job that provides food, clothing, and shelter for me and my family requires faking it for a time, then so be it. Heck, it is not like the flock is living in the light of truth as it is.
I agree. Also, is there really a clear point in time when faith must be considered lost? Or rather, would there not be a fuzzy area in which nothing is clear enough to make life-changing decisions?
And as with any break with a deeply held belief, admitting to one's self that, "It is all over," can be a life shattering event, full of guilt. It is natural for some to attempt to maintain the status quo, put it off.
That first moment I realized I was an atheist was a bit scary. Actually, my first thought was, "Oh my god, I'm going to hell!" Then I laughed very hard at myself and went to get the laundry out of the dryer. After that, I had no guilt, just some scars and issues to deal with. That took a few more years and is another story entirely.
I think I was about 8 or 9 when I realized that I didn't hold the same beliefs as the birth givers.