Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 09, 2012, 06:24:56 PM
Hello and welcome from a Christian. Sorry for my fundie bretheren.
Not an issue. If you accept me as if, I will most gladly do the same for you.
Besides, I get along with my parents, sister, and Christian colleagues at work since they are all quite liberal. In fact, when one of my colleagues was new a few years ago, she heard through the grapevine that I was gay and introduced herself by saying that her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists. Quite an odd thing to hear from someone I had known for less than 30 seconds...
I do get regularly attacked by Christians in my extended family and one person in particular in my volunteer work, the latter being the person whose latest attack convinced me to join this board to retain my sanity... But I know that not every Christian is like this. I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...) It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.
I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40. This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him. (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too... Anyway...) This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy. He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 09, 2012, 10:50:07 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 09, 2012, 06:24:56 PM
Hello and welcome from a Christian. Sorry for my fundie bretheren.
Not an issue. If you accept me as if, I will most gladly do the same for you.
Besides, I get along with my parents, sister, and Christian colleagues at work since they are all quite liberal. In fact, when one of my colleagues was new a few years ago, she heard through the grapevine that I was gay and introduced herself by saying that her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists. Quite an odd thing to hear from someone I had known for less than 30 seconds...
I do get regularly attacked by Christians in my extended family and one person in particular in my volunteer work, the latter being the person whose latest attack convinced me to join this board to retain my sanity... But I know that not every Christian is like this. I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...) It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.
I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40. This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him. (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too... Anyway...) This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy. He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.
I won't lie to you and say I don't have issue with the sexual acts of the gay, but I have the same issue with the sexual acts of the straight. I put no extra sin on the gay that indulge in sexual activity as they see fit. Me being a straight male does not make me a better "Christian" than a gay male Christian...or non-Christian for that matter just because my sexual acts involve myself and a female/wife. Within my belief system, we all need the same amount of Christ IN US to be saved. I hope to say that is not offensive. Feel free to question me on this if it is.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 09, 2012, 11:03:17 PM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 09, 2012, 10:50:07 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 09, 2012, 06:24:56 PM
Hello and welcome from a Christian. Sorry for my fundie bretheren.
Not an issue. If you accept me as if, I will most gladly do the same for you.
Besides, I get along with my parents, sister, and Christian colleagues at work since they are all quite liberal. In fact, when one of my colleagues was new a few years ago, she heard through the grapevine that I was gay and introduced herself by saying that her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists. Quite an odd thing to hear from someone I had known for less than 30 seconds...
I do get regularly attacked by Christians in my extended family and one person in particular in my volunteer work, the latter being the person whose latest attack convinced me to join this board to retain my sanity... But I know that not every Christian is like this. I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...) It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.
I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40. This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him. (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too... Anyway...) This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy. He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.
I won't lie to you and say I don't have issue with the sexual acts of the gay, but I have the same issue with the sexual acts of the straight. I put no extra sin on the gay that indulge in sexual activity as they see fit. Me being a straight male does not make me a better "Christian" than a gay male Christian...or non-Christian for that matter just because my sexual acts involve myself and a female/wife. Within my belief system, we all need the same amount of Christ IN US to be saved. I hope to say that is not offensive. Feel free to question me on this if it is.
I wish you had stuck with good wishes, particularly since I have, for the most part, stayed in this lounge section of the board where I am supposed to relax and take it easy. I did not come here to debate Christians; the presence of Christians and their criticism of me is what made me leave my last atheist board. --SIGH!-- End of honeymoon day two on the board. Now I have to get down to serious business.
What you wrote is not offensive on the surface--but on some levels it is quite offensive since this is the word game many Christians play to fake empathy for gays but also stick in a little preaching. It goes something like this: "Gay sex is not any more of a sin than anything else we all do, and we all need to be saved from the penalty of our sins."
There are only a handful of references in the Bible that may or may not be about gay people. See the first paragraph of my post here as to why these references may not be about gays at all:
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9833.msg180029#msg180029
I only scratch the surface, but many argue this point--not just the rabbis I talked about.
I understand that as a Christian you probably want the words of a Christian minister who has done extensive research and supposedly speaks to Jesus. Here is one, as I don't have the time or desire to do a long search for many. (You can, as there are many out there). I know this piece and have used it in my volunteer counseling with young gays, some of whom are Christians who would not benefit from my atheist perspective. It is called "A Letter to Louise: A Biblical Affirmation of Homosexuality." The author is a pro-gay Baptist minister--a married heterosexual in his 90s, I might add.
http://godmademegay.com/
Click on "Six Points" from the menu atop the page and then scroll down to "1. There is nothing in the Bible about homosexuality or homosexual people."
That being said... Even if the verses in question are about gays (which I do not believe they are), there are many, many more references to helping the poor--and that is something most of our Bible thumpers don't really do. Given the sheer number of references, to which should our attention be drawn? And yet, it is the thumpers who vote away jobs and health care and allow the downtrodden to rot in the street who donate incredible amounts to anti-gay advertising, agencies, and lobbyists.
Now, on being saved: I don't believe I need to be saved from anything other than dirty laundry.
Next: Why would you have issue with the sexual acts of gay people? Many heterosexuals practice sodomy and oral sex, the things gays are stereotyped as doing. Some gays (myself included) have never had it or put it up the ass and never want to; some straight guys, on the other hand, love it when their girlfriends and wives put fingers, beaded necklaces, and other items up there. So, who is the sodomite?
Also, why is it a sin to kiss a man but not a sin to dash the heads of infants against a wall/rock? The Bible is full of dashing. And if you take a look at
The Book of Job, you see how petty and vindictive the Judeo-Christian god is--and all to prove to the devil that he is right. Why would an omnipotent being need to prove anything, and why would he care what the devil thought of him? And how could he think that replacing dead children with new children will appease a father who loved the original children?
This is who I am supposed to follow? This is who calls my love a sin? I will never dash an infant's head, but I will give a man a deep kiss.
I'm sorry, TheWalkingContradiction (can I call you TWC? We sometimes do initials here for brevity), it wasn't really appropriate for AD to start with this here. :-\
Things have been a little... weird around the forum lately. Normally the introductions are just left to introductions. :(
What DJ said. Stuff like this is not normal.
Hi TWC....
I'll post my welcome here, kill two bird with one stone, etc. So...Welcome! I hope you'll stick around, it's a nice place and there's usually something interesting posted to think about.
Since we got right onto the gay thing, I'll not bandy about. I'm a bisexual woman who has also been clocked with the sin stick every now and then - and I don't mean in the fun way. Hard to hear that you're on the same level as a pedophile from people you love. Given that you joined here to get a break from the bigotry, I'm especially sorry that it got brought up on your introduction. Yeah, the shit hit the fan the last day or two, and yeah, people sometimes say things they normally wouldn't, but on the other hand, it can show exactly what kind of person is on the other end of the keyboard when the pressure's on. That can be useful.
Regarding AD's comments, it reminds me of why I find it so hard to relax around Christians. I've been friends with many, and many are very nice people . . . . and then one day something gets said that reminds you of why the Bible makes a better coaster than self-help book. What do you do then? Ignore the stupid thing and go back to being friends? I myself find it hard to forget of the prejudice existing just below the surface. There are many beliefs that I can ignore, that don't matter, don't affect me, and are easy to 'live and let live'. When it comes to the idea of homosexuality = sin, all I see is bigotry dressed up as religion. A reason - a "God-given" reason - for heteros who think gay sex is icky to justify their opinion. Sure, there is a verse or two in the Bible that says homosexual sex is an abomination. I don't argue that point. It actually makes it extremely easy to point out how the principles gleaned from it are based on the reader's own pre-existing bias, rather than any objective meaning.
(PS: I've bookmarked the godmademegay site to finish reading later).
Hi, TWC~
I saw you around here. Was going to introduce myself properly. I had no idea AD went on to jump/bash you so soon.
Yeah, i've been on these forums about a year and 2 months now. I love it here. The mods, especially Tank, are very kind and understanding. For the most part, we're all extremely open people.
I'm a gay woman, and i've had my fights with AD. Oh, trust me. I know his game of wording the "your acts don't bother me, but your sinning does."
And i love how well you handled it. You seem VERY informed. And, oh boy-- do i agree with you so very much about how many, many heterosexuals love to act all "oh gay sex is so gross and unnatural" but love to fuck their girlfriends up the ass.
Yesh, i've seen and heard it all. You seem to be a very cool and understanding guy. I do hope you stick around. If AD gets out of hand, we have plenty of kind mods and admins to handle it.
Cheers~!!
-Sweetdeath
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 09, 2012, 11:03:17 PM
I won't lie to you and say I don't have issue with the sexual acts of the gay, but I have the same issue with the sexual acts of the straight. I put no extra sin on the gay that indulge in sexual activity as they see fit. Me being a straight male does not make me a better "Christian" than a gay male Christian...or non-Christian for that matter just because my sexual acts involve myself and a female/wife. Within my belief system, we all need the same amount of Christ IN US to be saved. I hope to say that is not offensive. Feel free to question me on this if it is.
I feel that there has been an overwhelming response of people opposed to your comment -- so without saying anything supporting or opposing it, can you please elaborate for all of us what it is that you take issue with the sexual acts of homosexuals?
I assume that since you are Christian and referencing Christianity, this is going to include not only relevant scripture but also your interpretation of it.
Edit: What I mean to say is that it is impossible to respond to so many people opposing your comment in a non-specific way, and I know how this feels, so I was hoping we could make it a more sensible discussion.
I gotta say that what AD has said above is in no way aggressive - passive or otherwise. He has quite clearly and with civility stated his thoughts on sexual acts, both gay and straight, and has levelled the field in terms of his perceptions of both.
I have only just met TWC and don't really know where he's coming from, but it seemed like more of an attack by him than the other way round.
I'm a tolerant Atheist and am keen not to see Christians on this forum treated as chew-toys. In terms of civility in this thread, AD has shown total respect. He's a Christian - of course he's going to disagree with us. If we want the input of Christians on this forum (which presumably is desirable when debating religion) we've got to accept differences when expressed with civility. Fundie Atheists are as ugly as fundie Christians.
Engage...
Edit: anyone seen Bruce?
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 10, 2012, 08:37:10 AM
I gotta say that what AD has said above is in no way aggressive - passive or otherwise. He has quite clearly and with civility stated his thoughts on sexual acts, both gay and straight, and has levelled the field in terms of his perceptions of both.
I have only just met TWC and don't really know where he's coming from, but it seemed like more of an attack by him than the other way round.
I'm a tolerant Atheist and am keen not to see Christians on this forum treated as chew-toys. In terms of civility in this thread, AD has shown total respect. He's a Christian - of course he's going to disagree with us. If we want the input of Christians on this forum (which presumably is desirable when debating religion) we've got to accept differences when expressed with civility. Fundie Atheists are as ugly as fundie Christians.
Engage...
Edit: anyone seen Bruce?
As the eternal chew toy of many Christians in my real life, I have to disagree with you. I do not see how all this can seem more like an attack from me. But I am only human, so maybe I am wrong, and maybe I have too much of an ax to grind. Still, I am afraid I don't know where you are coming from either.
I will say this, though. The first posts in this thread were moved from my introductory post in the "Getting to Know You" section. Aside from my post in the thread on gay rabbinical students in Israel, I have stayed in the Getting to Know You section so that I do not have to debate Christians here. The rules of this board state that it is not appropriate to challenge someone in that section, and I am not looking to be challenged on something so basic to my biology. To me, it is like challenging my right to brown eyes. Have I broken a rule in some way?
Is it wrong to be tired of people questioning my "lifestyle" or trying to prove that being gay is a "choice" or trying to show that gay sex is somehow counter to the natural moral order of things or telling me that I am a sinner in need of Jesus? Is it wrong of me to be so drained by such people in real life that I wish to stay in a section of the board where I merely seek supportive interaction? If so, why?
Here is the bottom line: If you (generic you) have issues with gay sex, then fine: Don't engage in gay sex. If you are against gay marriage, then don't marry someone gay. It's that simple.
I have no problem with healthy debate here or anywhere else. However, it does not belong in the Getting to Know You section. Also, too often (again, speaking about my real life) I am cast in the villain's role for daring to stand up for gay people/myself. I really don't want to be in that role on an atheist board I have just joined; if I am, my fangs will come out and I will probably get myself banned less than a week after I joined. That is not the person I want to be here.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 10, 2012, 08:37:10 AM
I gotta say that what AD has said above is in no way aggressive - passive or otherwise. He has quite clearly and with civility stated his thoughts on sexual acts, both gay and straight, and has levelled the field in terms of his perceptions of both.
I have only just met TWC and don't really know where he's coming from, but it seemed like more of an attack by him than the other way round.
I would say TWC has a point. It's quite a strange way to start talking to somebody for the first time, that you disprove of anal sex, wtf?. To be fair to AD at the same time TWC didn't need to mention he was gay just as he didn't mention his race therefore it can be seen as a point of conversation. But still there is no need to bring up that you disprove of the person you are talking to.
I don't see either of the people in the OP as "attacking," in that post, nor in the rest of this thread. I moved it and the posts which followed out of the "Getting to Know You" section because the conversation had started touching on a subject which, because of its sometimes contentious nature, does not belong in that section. I don't think that
AnimatedDirt said anything wrong, and he has previously stated his opinion on this topic, which, while it's one that I disagree with, is not anti-gay
per se.
TheWalkingContradiction, I understand that you're not willing to ignore the Christian perspective
vis-à-vis this topic, so you've continued the conversation in this thread. That's fine, but in my opinion, you bear just as much responsibility for the trend it took as
AnimatedDirt. I don't see either of you as being aggressive here though, and hope that situation continues to obtain. You've clearly stated your position, as has
AnimatedDirt, and nobody is forcing either of you to continue this conversation.
* * *
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 10, 2012, 08:37:10 AMEdit: anyone seen Bruce?
He's on vacation. Last I heard he was in Wyoming, I think.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 10, 2012, 02:24:17 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 09, 2012, 11:03:17 PM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 09, 2012, 10:50:07 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 09, 2012, 06:24:56 PM
Hello and welcome from a Christian. Sorry for my fundie bretheren.
Not an issue. If you accept me as if, I will most gladly do the same for you.
Besides, I get along with my parents, sister, and Christian colleagues at work since they are all quite liberal. In fact, when one of my colleagues was new a few years ago, she heard through the grapevine that I was gay and introduced herself by saying that her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists. Quite an odd thing to hear from someone I had known for less than 30 seconds...
I do get regularly attacked by Christians in my extended family and one person in particular in my volunteer work, the latter being the person whose latest attack convinced me to join this board to retain my sanity... But I know that not every Christian is like this. I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...) It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.
I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40. This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him. (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too... Anyway...) This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy. He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.
I won't lie to you and say I don't have issue with the sexual acts of the gay, but I have the same issue with the sexual acts of the straight. I put no extra sin on the gay that indulge in sexual activity as they see fit. Me being a straight male does not make me a better "Christian" than a gay male Christian...or non-Christian for that matter just because my sexual acts involve myself and a female/wife. Within my belief system, we all need the same amount of Christ IN US to be saved. I hope to say that is not offensive. Feel free to question me on this if it is.
I wish you had stuck with good wishes, particularly since I have, for the most part, stayed in this lounge section of the board where I am supposed to relax and take it easy. I did not come here to debate Christians; the presence of Christians and their criticism of me is what made me leave my last atheist board. --SIGH!-- End of honeymoon day two on the board. Now I have to get down to serious business.
What you wrote is not offensive on the surface--but on some levels it is quite offensive since this is the word game many Christians play to fake empathy for gays but also stick in a little preaching. It goes something like this: "Gay sex is not any more of a sin than anything else we all do, and we all need to be saved from the penalty of our sins."
There are only a handful of references in the Bible that may or may not be about gay people. See the first paragraph of my post here as to why these references may not be about gays at all:
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9833.msg180029#msg180029
I only scratch the surface, but many argue this point--not just the rabbis I talked about.
I understand that as a Christian you probably want the words of a Christian minister who has done extensive research and supposedly speaks to Jesus. Here is one, as I don't have the time or desire to do a long search for many. (You can, as there are many out there). I know this piece and have used it in my volunteer counseling with young gays, some of whom are Christians who would not benefit from my atheist perspective. It is called "A Letter to Louise: A Biblical Affirmation of Homosexuality." The author is a pro-gay Baptist minister--a married heterosexual in his 90s, I might add.
http://godmademegay.com/
Click on "Six Points" from the menu atop the page and then scroll down to "1. There is nothing in the Bible about homosexuality or homosexual people."
That being said... Even if the verses in question are about gays (which I do not believe they are), there are many, many more references to helping the poor--and that is something most of our Bible thumpers don't really do. Given the sheer number of references, to which should our attention be drawn? And yet, it is the thumpers who vote away jobs and health care and allow the downtrodden to rot in the street who donate incredible amounts to anti-gay advertising, agencies, and lobbyists.
Now, on being saved: I don't believe I need to be saved from anything other than dirty laundry.
Next: Why would you have issue with the sexual acts of gay people? Many heterosexuals practice sodomy and oral sex, the things gays are stereotyped as doing. Some gays (myself included) have never had it or put it up the ass and never want to; some straight guys, on the other hand, love it when their girlfriends and wives put fingers, beaded necklaces, and other items up there. So, who is the sodomite?
Also, why is it a sin to kiss a man but not a sin to dash the heads of infants against a wall/rock? The Bible is full of dashing. And if you take a look at The Book of Job, you see how petty and vindictive the Judeo-Christian god is--and all to prove to the devil that he is right. Why would an omnipotent being need to prove anything, and why would he care what the devil thought of him? And how could he think that replacing dead children with new children will appease a father who loved the original children?
This is who I am supposed to follow? This is who calls my love a sin? I will never dash an infant's head, but I will give a man a deep kiss.
Ok, well that went wrong, didn't it. I didn't write what I did to engage in debate as I have no debate.
I support the freedom to choose to enjoy life as each person sees fit as long as it is not harming others, etc. My personal beliefs on what is and isn't sin, in context of my religion, should not be legislated onto secular society and furthermore, in context of my own religion, I do not weigh the homosexual more or less sinful than a heterosexual on a 'sin scale'.
I don't judge anyone for being homosexual. I don't hold the homosexual as any less of a person simply because they are homosexual. We are equals, both in my religious beliefs and my beliefs as a member of secular society.
I accept you as you are.
Quote from: Recusant on July 10, 2012, 04:31:19 PM
I don't see either of the people in the OP as "attacking," in that post, nor in the rest of this thread. I moved it and the posts which followed out of the "Getting to Know You" section because the conversation had started touching on a subject which, because of its sometimes contentious nature, does not belong in that section. I don't think that AnimatedDirt said anything wrong, and he has previously stated his opinion on this topic, which, while it's one that I disagree with, is not anti-gay per se.
TheWalkingContradiction, I understand that you're not willing to ignore the Christian perspective vis-à-vis this topic, so you've continued the conversation in this thread. That's fine, but in my opinion, you bear just as much responsibility for the trend it took as AnimatedDirt. I don't see either of you as being aggressive here though, and hope that situation continues to obtain. You've clearly stated your position, as has AnimatedDirt, and nobody is forcing either of you to continue this conversation.
I had been working on a reply and then when I previewed I saw your post. I figured I'd click post anyway. I hope my post isn't overstepping your moderating.
First, let me bury the hatchet immediately. I have my issues, but, in the spirit of what Recusant wrote, that does not mean I need to make AnimatedDirt think my way. It takes two to tango (sorry for all the cliches), so I take responsibility for my actions and accept any reprimand.
I just didn't expect such a post from out of left field in a safe zone of the board, for lack of a better term. Crow nailed what I felt in his post.
I am at work now and have to teach again soon, so I cannot spend too much time here. However, tonight or tomorrow I will work on putting something in my signature that says I am happy to talk to and even be supportive of Christians as well as atheists here, but that, at this time in my life, I am not going to debate homosexuality/my biology with anyone or be preached to/told I need Jesus to save me from sin. That said, I will always answer questions about being gay/my experiences and add information about a variety of topics when I feel I have something non-controversial to say. That is as far as I can go.
I wish I had the stamina (maturity?) to debate homosexuality and other issues with Christians, but a lot of Christians have done a lot of abusive things to me--especially when I was young and intimidated into obeying Jesus and "being" heterosexual. I am also currently in a situation where I have to deal with an abusive Christian in order to carry out volunteer work, and as soon as I say something like "That's one way of looking at gay issues but not the only way" I am accused of attacking her religion since what she believes is "Truth" with a capital T and comes from "experience of God, not theory." Should I leave this position, I will be abandoning people who depend on me.
For these and many other reasons, I simply cannot deal with Bible-based debate on homosexuality in an appropriate way. (To some extent, I cannot deal with Christians unless I know them very well and they have proven to me that they will never pull a Bible card.) I wish the situation were different; given my age, I also wish I were different--but this is who I am. I want to be on this board, and I admit my limitations. It was intention when I joined not to engage in debate here.
I won't lie. I joined this board because I could not find an LGBT atheist board (preferably one that also included straight allies). No such board exists, and when a search brought up both "The Happy Atheist" and "The Arrogant Atheist," among other boards, I went for the non-arrogant one. I can be quite arrogant, actually, and that is something I do not wish to indulge in here.
I hope you can all understand this, and I invite the moderators to let me know at any time if I say or do something inappropriate.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 10, 2012, 08:37:26 PM
First, let me bury the hatchet immediately. I have my issues, but, in the spirit of what Recusant wrote, that does not mean I need to make AnimatedDirt think my way. It takes two to tango (sorry for all the cliches), so I take responsibility for my actions and accept any reprimand.
I just didn't expect such a post from out of left field in a safe zone of the board, for lack of a better term. Crow nailed what I felt in his post.
I am at work now and have to teach again soon, so I cannot spend too much time here. However, tonight or tomorrow I will work on putting something in my signature that says I am happy to talk to and even be supportive of Christians as well as atheists here, but that, at this time in my life, I am not going to debate homosexuality/my biology with anyone or be preached to/told I need Jesus to save me from sin. That said, I will always answer questions about being gay/my experiences and add information about a variety of topics when I feel I have something non-controversial to say. That is as far as I can go.
I wish I had the stamina (maturity?) to debate homosexuality and other issues with Christians, but a lot of Christians have done a lot of abusive things to me--especially when I was young and intimidated into obeying Jesus and "being" heterosexual. I am also currently in a situation where I have to deal with an abusive Christian in order to carry out volunteer work, and as soon as I say something like "That's one way of looking at gay issues but not the only way" I am accused of attacking her religion since what she believes is "Truth" with a capital T and comes from "experience of God, not theory." Should I leave this position, I will be abandoning people who depend on me.
For these and many other reasons, I simply cannot deal with Bible-based debate on homosexuality in an appropriate way. (To some extent, I cannot deal with Christians unless I know them very well and they have proven to me that they will never pull a Bible card.) I wish the situation were different; given my age, I also wish I were different--but this is who I am. I want to be on this board, and I admit my limitations. It was intention when I joined not to engage in debate here.
I won't lie. I joined this board because I could not find an LGBT atheist board (preferably one that also included straight allies). No such board exists, and when a search brought up both "The Happy Atheist" and "The Arrogant Atheist," among other boards, I went for the non-arrogant one. I can be quite arrogant, actually, and that is something I do not wish to indulge in here.
I hope you can all understand this, and I invite the moderators to let me know at any time if I say or do something inappropriate.
This Christian was not debating you or homosexuality nor did I attack you that you should feel unsafe.
It seems you cannot do what you claimed...that if I accept you as you are you would do the same and accept me.
You simply cannot accept that I am Christian AND accept you the way you are. C'est la vie
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 10, 2012, 12:40:36 PM
Also, too often (again, speaking about my real life) I am cast in the villain's role for daring to stand up for gay people/myself. I really don't want to be in that role on an atheist board I have just joined
TWC, not that I don't think you aren't capable of standing up for yourself, but there are many non gay members of this forum that will gladly stand up for (support) you, and your sexual preferences (be it natural or simply personal preference). There are many gay or bisexual members here as well.
I do however think that AD was being upfront and honest about his position. I don't think he was telling you off, telling you to cease and desist or anything. AD believes what he has been taught, and although I greatly disagree with his beliefs and I struggle to understand how a person can respect others whom they think are "living in sin", I also acknowledge that AD has an honorable position of not wanting government to force Christian morality onto society. I am hoping this would mean that AD would support gay marriage in the secular realm should a referendum be made.
Now that AD has revealed his position, disclosed it so that you are aware and understand whom you are talking to, I expect him not to have the need to tell you what you already know about him.
I agree with Stevil, by and large I think this is a pretty LGBT friendly place.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 10, 2012, 11:07:09 PM
I agree with Stevil, by and large I think this is a pretty LGBT friendly place.
Agreed. TWC, don't be scared off by any of this. Sometimes we have heated debates or disagreements, but this is a very supportive and fun community, and very LGBT friendly as far as I can tell.
Quote from: Stevil on July 10, 2012, 11:03:46 PM
although I greatly disagree with his beliefs and I struggle to understand how a person can respect others whom they think are "living in sin",
I don't understand the struggle to understand. I respect myself, yet I understand I also fall short ( in context of my religious beliefs ) and sin. I can't help it. It's in my nature. ( In context ) Every single person on earth is "living in sin". There is no greater or lesser sins. All sin is sin and from the "least" of it ( humanly perceived ) to the "greatest" of it ( again humanly perceived ), it is all sin and makes one unrighteous. All are sinful. Therefore I am no better a person because I am not/do not ( insert sin here ) and shouldn't be among those that think themselves better than another simply because they/we don't do ( insert sin here ) because I am sinful too...I am in the same boat, so to speak, in context. The atheist may not hold the same beliefs as me, and is free to disagree with my moral code of from where I get it, but the atheist cannot say that AD thinks himself better ( sinless ) because he is Christian. That is far from the truth.
Quote from: StevilI also acknowledge that AD has an honorable position of not wanting government to force Christian morality onto society. I am hoping this would mean that AD would support gay marriage in the secular realm should a referendum be made.
Of course I support gay marriage as gay marriage ( I don't think ) is looking to be anything but equal to heterosexual marriage in the civil sense within secular society. Or am I mistaken?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 10, 2012, 11:39:24 PM
I don't understand the struggle to understand. I respect myself, yet I understand I also fall short ( in context of my religious beliefs ) and sin. I can't help it. It's in my nature. ( In context ) Every single person on earth is "living in sin". There is no greater or lesser sins. All sin is sin and from the "least" of it ( humanly perceived ) to the "greatest" of it ( again humanly perceived ), it is all sin and makes one unrighteous. All are sinful. Therefore I am no better a person because I am not/do not ( insert sin here ) and shouldn't be among those that think themselves better than another simply because they/we don't do ( insert sin here ) because I am sinful too...I am in the same boat, so to speak, in context. The atheist may not hold the same beliefs as me, and is free to disagree with my moral code of from where I get it, but the atheist cannot say that AD thinks himself better ( sinless ) because he is Christian. That is far from the truth.
I perceive having lack of judgement as better than being OK with the "sins" of others.
I don't even know why a person feels at liberty to make a moral judgement on what someone else does in the privacy of their bedroom.
It's simply a case of MYOB isn't it? If gods exist and they deem it as a sin, then let them make the judgement.
As far as us humans are concerned, if it don't impact us, we ought to mind our own business.
So with this in mind, is it possible for you to have an opinion of, "I'm told god considers it a sin, but I myself am to be judged by god, it is not my place to judge on god's behalf.", If this were your opinion then you wouldn't even state that you consider homosexuality to be a sin.
Please don't respond to this though, I am hopefully giving you food for thought, I acknowledge you don't need nor appreciate me TELLING you what your opinion OUGHT to be.
I do think that if a gay person were told only once by every Christian that homosexuality is a sin then this gay person will see Christians as a collective and will become feed up of being told "all the time" that they don't agree with this person's "lifestyle"
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 10, 2012, 11:39:24 PM
Quote from: StevilI also acknowledge that AD has an honorable position of not wanting government to force Christian morality onto society. I am hoping this would mean that AD would support gay marriage in the secular realm should a referendum be made.
Of course I support gay marriage as gay marriage ( I don't think ) is looking to be anything but equal to heterosexual marriage in the civil sense within secular society. Or am I mistaken?
I assume gay people want to be treated as people rather than as "gay". People get married to their loved ones and are recognised as forming a family by society and law, why should gay people be excluded from this?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 10, 2012, 08:53:40 PM
This Christian was not debating you or homosexuality nor did I attack you that you should feel unsafe.
It seems you cannot do what you claimed...that if I accept you as you are you would do the same and accept me.
You simply cannot accept that I am Christian AND accept you the way you are. C'est la vie
Why are you posting like this? I don't get it.
I did say bury the hatchet and I meant it. But you sound like you are... gloating. How can I possibly feel safe and comfortable around you?
Your first sentence: Maybe yes, maybe no. I don't know you. I can only judge you by the way you treat people (myself included) on the board. If you do want to get along, calling me a sinner and preaching about Jesus in your second post to me and on my second day on the board is not the way to do it, especially since I had already discussed my abuse at the hands of Christians in the introduction.
In my first response to you, which is the first post in this thread, I spoke about a colleague who, in the first 30 seconds of getting to know me in real life, told me her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists. That, too, was insincere; it was an attempt to make herself look good and make me admire her. A person can be pro-gay and have a gay minister, but that does mean the person has depth or empathy. I am reminded of what an African American speaker once said. Paraphrasing:
There was this white girl I had become friendly with in college, and when her mother came to visit, she said, "Look, Ma. I have a black friend." Her mother hugged her and said, "I'm so proud of you!" Imagine if a devil worshipper went to a Christian board, found a Christian who had been abused by devil worshipers, and, in his second post to that Christian on that Christian's second day on the board--while the Christian was posting in a section on the Christian board that was advertised as free of debate and free of devil worshippers causing problems (one of the reasons the Christian had chosen that board)--the devil worshipper told the Christian: "Satan loves you. Go back to your true master."
Even if that devil worshipper were a hot gay atheist who loved
Star Trek and wanted me in bed, I would take the Christian's side and shun the hot guy. Doing something like he did is just plain wrong.
If you want to get to know me and get along, don't try to prove anything Christian or otherwise, and don't talk to me about Jesus. (Respect has to be earned.) In turn, I won't talk to you about atheism. Ask me about science ficton, art, music, books, my cat, what foods I like, places I like to visit, the joy of teaching...
Your second and third sentence: I can and do accept and support many Christians. Let's see...
1. I have helped gay Christians to accept who they are while never trying to deconvert them or saying derogatory things about their religion. I work on deconversion only when specifically asked. I understand that for many gays, faith matters.
2. I support my parents and sister in their faith and have even assisted them in church-oriented projects.
3. I protect Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists in my classroom from attack for the same reason I protect atheists from attack.
4. I have been outspoken in making sure that we continue to have a prayer room in the building in which I teach at my university, and I have expressed my great displeasure at its being called a (politically correct) "contemplation room" instead of a "prayer room."
I don't have an issue with your being Christian. I have an issue with how you have interacted with me. If your interaction continues in this fashion, I will never accept you--as a person, not as a Christian.
On the other hand, if you respect my limitations and tell me which of your limitations I need to respect, we might become good friends. I am not ready to write you off because of one or two missteps with me.
To everyone:
Thank you very, very much to all the people who heard my pain and posted support. This does indeed say something about this board.
I will not join in any further discussion of homosexuality as a debate in this thread, and I will not respond to any attempts to cajole me into a debate. I am, however, willing to answer any questions on my experience as a gay person and the experience of other gay people as long as they are for the purpose of gaining information or awareness only.
QuotetC
Here is the bottom line: If you (generic you) have issues with gay sex, then fine: Don't engage in gay sex. If you are against gay marriage, then don't marry someone gay.
Exactly!
TWC, you should stick around for a while. This forum isn't about gay or straight. I think 99.9% ofthe members here would agree that any act between willing partners is fine.
We're more about discovering meaningful athiest existance in a primarily theist world.
Jump in.
TWC - First of all, I don't think I ever gave you a proper welcome. So welcome, and so glad you could join us. You mentioned teaching, what do you teach?
Second of all - I agree with whoever said that things have been weird around here the past couple of days. We are usually a very open, accepting, tight knit community, but things have just been a little crazy the past couple of days. I'm hoping we all get back to normal, stat.
I think you'll find, for the most part, that we are very LGBT friendly, but I totally respect that if someone says something that bugs you or strikes the wrong cord with you, that you call it out (in a respectful way, preferably ;)) We all have room to grow and learn, and fresh perspectives are always welcome.
You know what you said that I love?
QuoteI am not going to debate homosexuality/my biology with anyone.
Word. It's so simple but weirdly powerful to say "This is not up for debate." I'm going to have to remember that for future use.
Anyway, welcome, and please know that we usually live up to our "Happy Atheist" name. Stick around for a while, you'll see. :D
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 11, 2012, 01:07:03 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on July 10, 2012, 08:53:40 PM
This Christian was not debating you or homosexuality nor did I attack you that you should feel unsafe.
It seems you cannot do what you claimed...that if I accept you as you are you would do the same and accept me.
You simply cannot accept that I am Christian AND accept you the way you are. C'est la vie
Why are you posting like this? I don't get it.
I did say bury the hatchet and I meant it. But you sound like you are... gloating. How can I possibly feel safe and comfortable around you?
Your first sentence: Maybe yes, maybe no. I don't know you. I can only judge you by the way you treat people (myself included) on the board. If you do want to get along, calling me a sinner and preaching about Jesus in your second post to me and on my second day on the board is not the way to do it, especially since I had already discussed my abuse at the hands of Christians in the introduction.
In my first response to you, which is the first post in this thread, I spoke about a colleague who, in the first 30 seconds of getting to know me in real life, told me her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists. That, too, was insincere; it was an attempt to make herself look good and make me admire her. A person can be pro-gay and have a gay minister, but that does mean the person has depth or empathy. I am reminded of what an African American speaker once said. Paraphrasing: There was this white girl I had become friendly with in college, and when her mother came to visit, she said, "Look, Ma. I have a black friend." Her mother hugged her and said, "I'm so proud of you!"
Imagine if a devil worshipper went to a Christian board, found a Christian who had been abused by devil worshipers, and, in his second post to that Christian on that Christian's second day on the board--while the Christian was posting in a section on the Christian board that was advertised as free of debate and free of devil worshippers causing problems (one of the reasons the Christian had chosen that board)--the devil worshipper told the Christian: "Satan loves you. Go back to your true master."
Even if that devil worshipper were a hot gay atheist who loved Star Trek and wanted me in bed, I would take the Christian's side and shun the hot guy. Doing something like he did is just plain wrong.
If you want to get to know me and get along, don't try to prove anything Christian or otherwise, and don't talk to me about Jesus. (Respect has to be earned.) In turn, I won't talk to you about atheism. Ask me about science ficton, art, music, books, my cat, what foods I like, places I like to visit, the joy of teaching...
Your second and third sentence: I can and do accept and support many Christians. Let's see...
1. I have helped gay Christians to accept who they are while never trying to deconvert them or saying derogatory things about their religion. I work on deconversion only when specifically asked. I understand that for many gays, faith matters.
2. I support my parents and sister in their faith and have even assisted them in church-oriented projects.
3. I protect Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists in my classroom from attack for the same reason I protect atheists from attack.
4. I have been outspoken in making sure that we continue to have a prayer room in the building in which I teach at my university, and I have expressed my great displeasure at its being called a (politically correct) "contemplation room" instead of a "prayer room."
I don't have an issue with your being Christian. I have an issue with how you have interacted with me. If your interaction continues in this fashion, I will never accept you--as a person, not as a Christian.
On the other hand, if you respect my limitations and tell me which of your limitations I need to respect, we might become good friends. I am not ready to write you off because of one or two missteps with me.
To everyone:
Thank you very, very much to all the people who heard my pain and posted support. This does indeed say something about this board.
I will not join in any further discussion of homosexuality as a debate in this thread, and I will not respond to any attempts to cajole me into a debate. I am, however, willing to answer any questions on my experience as a gay person and the experience of other gay people as long as they are for the purpose of gaining information or awareness only.
First, welcome to the forum. Glad to have you here.
Second, you are very new here, and as such, don't yet have an undstanding of all the members, the nuances of how this forum works, and how it is moderated. So it's natural to be sort of at a loss at first with how to respond to members.
But let me give you my take so far on this issue, and you can take it for what it is worth. I have found AD to be honest, up front and (as a distinct minority here) someone who has had to put up with way more crap than you or most anyone else here. People have piled on him more than any member I can think of in this board's history, and he has done a better job of dealing with it than I would have.
In my opinion, you need to stop going back and forth with this and not fan the flames of the thread more than has been done. You received an honest opinion from AD. You don't have to like it, but he was not gloating or being disingenuous.
Take your time, don't parse every word or look for fights where they don't exist. I think you have gone too far with your assertion that AD has said anything that should make you feel "unsafe". That is tantamount to saying that he threatened you, and that did not happen.
Just relax and enjoy the forum. As has been said, this place isn't about gay or straight (or race, or anything other than atheist). And it is all-inclusive.
We all have to expect that some aspect of our lives don't meet with the approval of everyone. That's life. We deal with it every day as atheists (the most distrusted group in America).
Let's move on please, and just chill out.
Thank you to the three of you as well.
I am not about to jump ship. I just have to figure out a way to be on this board that won't make my blood pressure rise, which probably means sticking mostly to the safe sections and not being controversial.
Ali asked about teaching: I teach four ESL (English as a Second Language) classes a semester (Spring, Fall, Summer-1 and Summer-2) to university students. Although I do teach at least one beginners or low level class a semester, most of my students in my other classes already speak everyday English (with errors) but need to bring it up to academic English quickly. In the spring and fall I also teach a speech communication course to fluent graduate students from all disciplines. We work on ways to present research orally, strategies for Power Point presentations, techniques for speaking up and being understood better, American classroom/academic psychology, American body language, and accent correction. The latter is especially hard since the class is diverse with students from many different countries. (The most exotic ESL student I have ever taught was... a French Canadian!)
I don't speak all of my students' languages, but since I am trilingual myself I know exactly what they are going through in learning other languages. Also, although I don't speak Arabic, my mother is a native speaker who was born and raised in Lebanon. (I can say roughly 300 words and phrases in Arabic with only a light American accent, and I crack up my Arabic students by throwing things like leysh ana ya allah? (Why me, God?) and yalla yalla! (Hurry up!) into my conversations with them.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 11, 2012, 02:06:38 AM
(The most exotic ESL student I have ever taught was... a French Canadian!)
I live in Ottawa, right across the border from Quebec. My Grandfather is a french Canadian (before I got married, I had a french last name). Yes, the Quebecois language can definitely be... exotic. :D
Oh, là, là! Juliette, ma chérie, que j'ai envie de ...Fill in ending according to taste.
-----------
I was coming through the arch into my college at Oxford one night when I spied a mate of mine, a Québecois called Jacques. He'd had a few, and was hopping around the quad on one leg, pretending to be Benn Gunn from Treasure Island.
"Aarr, sir, have 'ee got a bit o' cheese for a christian gennlemun?", quoth he.
So I thought, "what fun!" and joined in.
After half an hour there were about 20 of us all hopping around the quad demanding cheese in pirate voices.
This is what you get with French Canadians.
This thread seems more of a Christianity versus sexuality thread. Presumably all sex lacking the intention of producing a child with a church approved wife is sin. I think this is derived from the world view of ancient goat herders, jealous wife/daughter owners. It's an ugly thing when those in authority tell people their best is the worst. Spare us the judgement of twisted zealots, sex is a giving thing to me, don't know what it is to them.
This isn't meant as an attack on AD, more frustration that the guilt that has been dealt for millennia is still so strong.
Quote from: OldGit on July 11, 2012, 10:17:26 AM
Oh, là, là! Juliette, ma chérie, que j'ai envie de ...
Fill in ending according to taste.
-----------
I was coming through the arch into my college at Oxford one night when I spied a mate of mine, a Québecois called Jacques. He'd had a few, and was hopping around the quad on one leg, pretending to be Benn Gunn from Treasure Island.
"Aarr, sir, have 'ee got a bit o' cheese for a christian gennlemun?", quoth he.
So I thought, "what fun!" and joined in.
After half an hour there were about 20 of us all hopping around the quad demanding cheese in pirate voices.
This is what you get with French Canadians.
:D :D :D
I miss the Star Trek debate already.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 09, 2012, 10:50:07 PM
But I know that not every Christian is like this. I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...) It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.
I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40. This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him. (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too... Anyway...) This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy. He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.
Ditto with the not-pigeonholing-Xtians, unless they ask for it. I not only have a number of friends who are gay and devoutly religious, I have a number of relatives who are both as well. An aunt of mine was in a committed relationship with another woman for 30 years. They broke up about 15 years ago, as people sometimes do even after a long time together, and she's been celibate since.
I really don't see the point of voluntary celibacy myself, and I know she's had a lot of grief in her life trying to square her religion's pronouncements on homosexuality with her own nature, but still I have to respect her committment to her religious beliefs and willingness to struggle with it all. It's not everybody, gay or straight, who wouldn't just go right to lip service when their religion interfered with their sex life.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on July 11, 2012, 06:33:41 PM
I miss the Star Trek debate already.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 09, 2012, 10:50:07 PM
But I know that not every Christian is like this. I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...) It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.
I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40. This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him. (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too... Anyway...) This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy. He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.
Ditto with the not-pigeonholing-Xtians, unless they ask for it. I not only have a number of friends who are gay and devoutly religious, I have a number of relatives who are both as well. An aunt of mine was in a committed relationship with another woman for 30 years. They broke up about 15 years ago, as people sometimes do even after a long time together, and she's been celibate since.
I really don't see the point of voluntary celibacy myself, and I know she's had a lot of grief in her life trying to square her religion's pronouncements on homosexuality with her own nature, but still I have to respect her committment to her religious beliefs and willingness to struggle with it all. It's not everybody, gay or straight, who wouldn't just go right to lip service when their religion interfered with their sex life.
We can certainly continue the
Star Trek discussion in the original thread or in a new thread on a specific aspect of
Star Trek. Its creator, Gene Roddenberry, was an atheist, and that contributed greatly to his vision of the future.
Star Trek and atheism (or even science fiction and atheism) would be a great thread, one to which I would gladly contribute if someone started it. Or someone can start a new thread on something else without atheism. That is the type of discussion I relish.
As to homosexuality and Christianity... So much pain and all for no reason. I'll preface my next remarks by reiterating that there are Christians, Jews, Muslims, and members of other religions who are straight allies and don't hurt gay people. The church in which I was raised was originally a house of horrors; however, my parents and sister are now involved in a church which made being pro-gay and pro-gay marriage a requirement for the new minister it had to hire a few years ago. Consequently, there are now a small number of lesbians in the church. My sister, who is also the head Sunday School teacher, is largely responsible for changes in this church, and that is to a large degree because of the horrible things done to me in the name of Jesus. (I don't know any of you well enough to feel safe/comfortable discussing the specific details. I also do not know how many Christians are on the board, and I am afraid of being attacked if I pounce too hard on religion. That was my experience on my last atheist board.)
I will say a couple of things instead of all that is on my mind... If I say nothing, my being on this board serves no purpose.
First, my church had said that there was no such thing as homosexuality. The devil created the temptations, but Jesus drove them away. I also knew that I was of Mediterranean descent, and straight Mediterranean guys (Italians, Greeks, Spaniards, Turks, Israelis, Arabs...) are very touchy-feely with each other in a non-sexual way. That, I theorized, was why I liked to put my arm around guys' shoulders, and since Mediterranean guys in my church did that it was all right. I was not gay, I believed, since gay did not exist. So sad.
What kills me most, though, and what I was spared, is Christian parents who disown their gay kids. Homeless teenage prostitutes, many gay and only in their teens, are thus created. Too many have unprotected sex since they need money to eat; they then suffer the ravages of sexually-transmitted diseases.
I got killed for saying this to Christians one... If Jesus were real instead of an idealized projection, he would not be the buddy of Republicans in boardrooms. He would be hanging out with gay prostitutes, homeless people, punks and goths, poor minorities, the downtrodden--basically, the folks represented by the characters in
Rent. But I guess it is like the urban legend of the Christian parent who smacks the child for saying Jesus was Jewish. Of course, Jesus was Christian. And he spoke English. --SIGH--
The thought of Jesus palling around with... homosexuals! So many good Christians don't want to hear it. (At least I know my parents and sister, who are all Christian, agree with me. Most of the rest of the family, all Christian, despises me since I am a homosexual and think barbaric thoughts like a polysexual Jesus hugging and comforting a person with AIDS. Which is the real Christianity? I wish it were the hugging and comforting thing... But my wishing is not enough. Atheism is the only path for me.)
If only Gene Roddenberry, Socrates, and Jesus could walk hand in hand in public.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 12, 2012, 12:25:23 AM
I got killed for saying this to Christians one... If Jesus were real instead of an idealized projection, he would not be the buddy of Republicans in boardrooms. He would be hanging out with gay prostitutes, homeless people, punks and goths, poor minorities, the downtrodden--basically, the folks represented by the characters in Rent. But I guess it is like the urban legend of the Christian parent who smacks the child for saying Jesus was Jewish. Of course, Jesus was Christian. And he spoke English. --SIGH--
That's a fantastic analogy. I do think it's very important to make a distinction between what Jesus the man was apparently saying (if he did exist) vs. the church that grew up out of a twisted version of his teachings.