I'm not quite living life as an atheist as yet, however recent events have really made me feel the kind of indignation I imagine a lot of other people here probably feel.
Hell, it's a lot more than indignation! Outrage, condescension, and despair are also what I felt. I've spent a lot of time raging about how stupid, psychopathic, homicidal, genocidal, manipulative and morally bankrupt the God of the Bible seems, and perhaps I had it coming. A book I read through called Write It Down, Make It Happen suggested writing letters to God, so I gave it a go. What's funny is I asked specific questions about what's bugging me! I didn't get specific answers, and I was not profoundly moved by what amount to unfocused coincidence. If God did set up three evangelical situations to answer my questions, why all the stupid rhetoric?
So, on one day, while I was folding laundry in the laundry room of the apartment complex where I'm currently residing, I was approached by three Christians who were fixated on witnessing to me. I told them I already knew the rules/doctrine in an attempt to head of the tedium of the familiar recital, in hopes that I could politely get their personal vibe on some stuff that's been bugging me. I gave them an easy one too, "How do I tell if it's God talking to me, or if I'm just talking to myself, or if I'm crazy?" I was disappointed, they didn't have anything to offer that I haven't already heard. I ended up fighting hard not to roll my eyes; they were doing the whole thing where one of them is talking and another starts saying, "Yeah, oh, yeah, amen, you said it," ect. I was probably way too nice to them, frankly. I gave them a chance to register some of the trauma I've been experiencing through a pointed hint, which they didn't respond to. Honestly, it seemed like they were more interested in practicing evangelizing than understanding what was really bugging me. Talk about boring, unenlightening, a complete failure.
At work the next day, I was talked to by a lady who proudly proclaimed that she had made her cancer go away with homemade juice. And of course, her faith in God. Great. I humored her and her son, as they were customers and I was politely allowing them to indulge in their chosen customer eccentricity, and it got me out of doing work for a little bit; yet it was still a kind of mild torture. I was glad when a manager moved in to do an impromptu sales class with some other employees, which I was happy to join in on and get away.
At the end of the day, I had a friendly back-and-forth debate with a good friend whose been aware of my loss of faith. I felt a little troubled in a sense, because there was nothing that he could present as an argument that I didn't have a ready made answer for why the whole Christian thing has become a stupid construct in my eyes. My favorite bit is when he finally came out with the answer I think he has been avoiding when I recalled my charge that the God who is supposed to be capable of everything, who knows what's in my heart and therefore knows what I need or expect; my friend finally put out the answer I knew was the only one he could give, that God would only answer through the happenings of the world around me and the people who I interact with (he acknowledge that problem that is so dear to me heart, that the message is filtered through flawed humans). I felt troubled, because I don't want to have these arguments and debates with Christians. It's funny in a way, because despite my frustration, I don't want to have these conversations out of respect for their beliefs; I don't want to tell them about the contempt I have for their religion, and I don't want to go through being able to counter their feeble rhetoric, even though they don't really respect or care about my own feelings about spirituality! I don't want to be their enemy, and I don't want to cause them to have doubt about their faith (even while I feel uncomfortable about how embarrassing I find their behavior).
At the end of this disheartening narrative, I got out my notebook devoted to spiritual matters, fought through that feeling that I was wasting my time, and wrote another letter to dear old God, reminding him that I had already asked for specific answers, and had already suggested some convincing methods of communication.
I feel morally, ethically and spiritually exhausted and frustrated. It has solidified my need to be independent, and rely on myself. I don't want God's help (if he exists) because I don't want him to claim credit for the difficulties I'm trying to work through with my own strength of will (and I don't want Christians to look at the situation and give God credit for my hard work!).
I keep telling myself that at the end of the day, whatever God thinks he is supposed to be, I can really only devote so much energy to such a worthless pursuit anyway. There are so many better things to do in this world, and so many more useful mentalities to cultivate as I go about living my life.
I am so glad I don't live where you do. I seriously think I'd have a police record for assault by now!
I feel your pain. I have been dealing with family doing this to me and my wife and it has become nearly unbearable. I really envy people who live in areas of the world that aren't as infected with religion as the states.
Quote from: Tank on October 25, 2011, 08:06:48 PM
I am so glad I don't live where you do. I seriously think I'd have a police record for assault by now!
Me, they'd likely have locked up as serial killer. :-\
QuoteI am so glad I don't live where you do. I seriously think I'd have a police record for assault by now!
In a way, that level of evangelical saturation is kind of a spiritual intrusion and assault, isn't it? I wish there social rules of politeness and etiquette requiring them to desist and withdraw when their target asks them not to evangelize. Or as an alternative, they are required to ask your permission to witness to you. It's a nice, yet unlikely dream. Human's don't give as much credit to the notion of spiritual or emotional bullying compared to physical bullying.
QuoteI feel your pain. I have been dealing with family doing this to me and my wife and it has become nearly unbearable. I really envy people who live in areas of the world that aren't as infected with religion as the states.
Luckily so far, my parents sound like their on the same page about religion. They are spiritual like me, open minded, and a surface level conversation suggests similar derision toward organized religion. They're making up for it by being weird about my separation and divorce with my wife (even though I'm still on very friendly terms with her, they're taking "my side", which doesn't really exist in the circumstances) and listening selectively about the mental conditions I'm dealing with. :(
Quote from: Tristan Jay on October 26, 2011, 02:55:25 AM
QuoteI am so glad I don't live where you do. I seriously think I'd have a police record for assault by now!
In a way, that level of evangelical saturation is kind of a spiritual intrusion and assault, isn't it? I wish there social rules of politeness and etiquette requiring them to desist and withdraw when their target asks them not to evangelize.
In another thread we were talking about having an Atheist symbol, maybe as a pendant or something. Just a symbol of belonging to a group that values diversity and critical thought. Maybe that kind of thing could also double as a discrete, please don't come to me an evangalise, I'm not really into it symbol.
Whitney has designed one, its really good.
For all of Christianities failings they do have the odd gem.
I like the saying, "god helps those who help themselves". Both theists and atheists could go along with that one.
Quote from: Tristan Jay on October 26, 2011, 02:55:25 AM
I wish there social rules of politeness and etiquette requiring them to desist and withdraw when their target asks them not to evangelize.
There are, though, aren't there, in Real Life? It just seems that many of your evangelists don't think they apply to them.
This site is a real education to me. I have no experience of this sort of harrassment and it would probably drive me to do something I might regret ... though in circumstances like yours I'd only regret it if I got caught.
It's outrageous! How about making up an exotic religion and announcing your conversion?
Personally I'd be very tempted to simply tell them I was a Satanist, or would that just make matters worse?
I used to say that to some mad group who used to stand in St Albans market, witnessing.
Quote from: Tank on October 26, 2011, 09:14:44 AM
Personally I'd be very tempted to simply tell them I was a Satanist, or would that just make matters worse?
They'd probably burn poor Tristan.
Someone I know used to tell the door-to-door brigade "Sorry, I'm a musician". The time it took them to work out that this made no sense whatsoever was long enough for him to close the door.
Quote from: Ildiko on October 26, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 26, 2011, 09:14:44 AM
Personally I'd be very tempted to simply tell them I was a Satanist, or would that just make matters worse?
They'd probably burn poor Tristan.
Someone I know used to tell the door-to-door brigade "Sorry, I'm a musician". The time it took them to work out that this made no sense whatsoever was long enough for him to close the door.
I love that one!
Quote from: Ildiko on October 26, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
They'd probably burn poor Tristan.
...Unless he said it in as way that caused them to run screaming. ;D
QuoteSomeone I know used to tell the door-to-door brigade "Sorry, I'm a musician". The time it took them to work out that this made no sense whatsoever was long enough for him to close the door.
Like.
QuoteIt's outrageous! How about making up an exotic religion and announcing your conversion?
I've actually been wondering how this approach might work! If it evokes confusion on their faces, the method Ildiko mentions might be satisfying. "Sorry, I'm a misotheist! Look it up, hope you will find it an interesting read; 'bye!"
Asmodean's method sounds awesome, too. "I'm a misotheist. Which means I'm insane enough to hate God. I can't wait to meet him, so I can confront him with his double standard. :Eyes turn a menacing, glowing read: Then I'll put an axe to His face! :A howling, eerie moaning wind starts to swirl around within the perfectly ordinary laundromate:"
And if someone tries to exorcise me in the name of Jesus, I'll just laugh. "Gee, he doesn't seem to be making much effort, just like the last several thousand years." Starts walking toward them; they freak out and bolt.
Ah well. Idle dark fantasies about exposing the futility of religion. Please, disregard the melodrama. It's been another hell of a day. At least there was no evangalizing going on, though.
One of my fake faiths is Lactoportarianism - the doctrine that Mary was no more a virgin than Victoria Beckham, and that JC's father was in fact the milkman.
The other one is Our Lady St Postula and her Blessèd Screeves.
Combine one of those with Asmodean's approach?
More fun to invent your own, though.
This could be turned into a good horror story.
Quote from: Tristan Jay on October 26, 2011, 08:04:57 PM
Ah well. Idle dark fantasies about exposing the futility of religion. Please, disregard the melodrama. It's been another hell of a day. At least there was no evangalizing going on, though.
Oh poo! In the hope of giving you a giggle before the end of the day ... true story.
I'm in Italy, and last year I was sitting in a hospital waiting room next to a nun. Out of the blue she offered me a rosary. So I said thanks but no thanks, I'm not a Catholic ... in fact, I'm not even a Christian. She looked astonished for a moment, then light dawned. "Oh!" she said, with great interest, "Are you one of those evangelicals?"
Quote from: Ildiko on October 26, 2011, 08:28:34 PMIn the hope of giving you a giggle before the end of the day ... true story.
I'm in Italy, and last year I was sitting in a hospital waiting room next to a nun. Out of the blue she offered me a rosary. So I said thanks but no thanks, I'm not a Catholic ... in fact, I'm not even a Christian. She looked astonished for a moment, then light dawned. "Oh!" she said, with great interest, "Are you one of those evangelicals?"
;D Thanks Ildiko! :)
Quote from: Tristan Jay on October 25, 2011, 04:32:17 PM
I'm not quite living life as an atheist as yet, however recent events have really made me feel the kind of indignation I imagine a lot of other people here probably feel.
Hell, it's a lot more than indignation! Outrage, condescension, and despair are also what I felt. I've spent a lot of time raging about how stupid, psychopathic, homicidal, genocidal, manipulative and morally bankrupt the God of the Bible seems, and perhaps I had it coming.
I keep telling myself that at the end of the day, whatever God thinks he is supposed to be, I can really only devote so much energy to such a worthless pursuit anyway. There are so many better things to do in this world, and so many more useful mentalities to cultivate as I go about living my life.
I don't spend a lot of time in this particular forum...so I'm really late.
I haven't read the entire thread yet, but your words above caught me right away. I am not a good friend when it comes to matters such as this. I lack, sadly, the empathy needed to help or guide or even offer an opinion to a person through conundrums like this simply because I never lost the faith. I never had faith, especially the religious kind; I had nothing to lose. I cannot relate - no frame of reference - to a person going through that what you feel.
But I shall try anyway...
I never felt the indignation, outrage, condescension, and despair over God. "God" is meaningless to me. "God exists" is meaningless. "God is________" equally meaningless. And I would wager you would have a very good idea why I think that. But I do feel those things about the believers who believe that their god is the opposite of stupid, psychopathic, homicidal, genocidal, manipulative and morally bankrupt. That, however, is neither here nor there.
Unlike so many people that wonder and despair their way to discover WHY they lost their faith and in many cases fight their way to regain it, I had come to wonder and discover why I NEVER HAD faith, when so many others do. But my fight did not materialize to have that which I never had. No. The more I learnt, the more I uncovered...the more my fight takes shape to show believers that faith is not a viable worldview. My signature:
The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not. My earliest remembrance of my beginning to (diligently) try to understand why I had no faith started back in the late 80's. Of course, there is a back story to this, but will not bore you with the details. Anyway, my cousin and I had a bit of discourse over predetermination. I decided to ask his minister about it. I grew up Presbyterian and went to my cousin's Presby church to ask. Presbyterianism is Calvanistic and the minister could not answer my questions without a lot of gobbledegook. I went back one other time after researching predeterminism (remember, this is pre-internet) and left somewhat angry and with more questions unanswered than answered and even more questions forming.
Then, my cousin gave me a book called
The Lost Books of the Bible. It contained all the non-canonical stories left out of the Bible. Well, that didn't fracking help at all. But the game was on now...sort of. I left it alone until the mid 90's when an internet friend and I got into a discussion about Jehovah's Witnessess (which she was). I decided how lacking in information I was about Christianity and decided to investigate.
This is where I leave you in my overlong narrative. The moral of the story is....investigate. Investigate religion, spirituality, etc., without feelings, knowing that your heart does not think, but your brain does. Yes, there are so many other things to do with your life. But the one bugging you at this time needs looking into...or again, I wager...you will not be happy with the outcome, whatever shape it may take.
Thanks Gawen, for taking the time to share that, really. It's interesting to hear your perspective on all that. I'm interested in knowing (if you know) what your cousin's rational was for lending you The Lost Books of the Bible. I'm familiar with the book, and I'm under the impression that some of the books are basically early christian fiction that resembles biblical narration.
QuoteThe moral of the story is....investigate. Investigate religion, spirituality, etc., without feelings, knowing that your heart does not think, but your brain does. Yes, there are so many other things to do with your life. But the one bugging you at this time needs looking into...or again, I wager...you will not be happy with the outcome, whatever shape it may take.
I hope you'll bear with me here, because your substantial post leads to this key paragraph, and I want to understand the nuances of what your saying. Can you re-word or elaborate on the first and last sentence of the paragraph? I'm preoccupied with being able to better appreciate what you're conveying here.
One final comment on your signature, I agree that faith is problematic, especially in the face of cold, hard facts. Something that I watch more closely these days is the apologetics arguments that Christians use to try and show that the Christian religion holds up when examined with reason. It's been curious to see how when they reach the point of becoming a circular argument, and the spinning is called out, at the end of the day it still comes down to "faith." And at the end of the day, if God's a big boy and can speak up (being able to do everything), then there shouldn't be a need for letting his son's/his own sacrifice be left to chance out of doubt and the need for faith, when it would be so easy to just manifest and just say to everyone on the planet, "Ok, listen carefully, take notes if you like, and I'll repeat myself a couple times and respond to clarifying questions; so, here's how it is..." The whole faith thing just doesn't make sense; there's no reason to leave it up to faith.
I definitely plan to continue investigating. When some questions cropped up, I made sure I got my Bible out of storage for reference. I'm currently reading though Buddhist literature, there are some aspects about it that I've always been curious about. My mind glazes over on occasion and I speed through the parts where everyone worships Buddha, it sure resembles the unfortunate divinity hyperbole that appears in the Bible, too. Here and there are thought provoking dashes of wisdom that are meant to be practical approaches in life, so my brain enjoys munching on those tidbits.
TJ, sorry I'm late in responding. The Corinthians thread takes up a lot of time. Tonight when I get home I'll get back with you.
But I have a bit of time for the first part.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
And then there is the Nag Hammadi Library - while not apocryphal or pseudepigraphic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library
Anyway, my cousin's motivation stemmed from my queries. He thought that if I couldn't get quite into the Bible proper, the stuff left out of it might jog me. It actually made it worse.
Quote from: Tristan JayI hope you'll bear with me here, because your substantial post leads to this key paragraph, and I want to understand the nuances of what your saying. Can you re-word or elaborate on the first and last sentence of the paragraph? I'm preoccupied with being able to better appreciate what you're conveying here.
Well, like I said above, I had no faith to start with and I wanted to know why I didn't. So I investigated the Bible. I still do and it's been 20 years since I started. Those of you that had faith and have lost it, well, you need to investigate why you lost it. There is a multitude of reasons why people lose their faith, but do they really REALLY understand why they lost it? And those that lost their faith, do they understand why they want it back?
When I started my search, there was no emotional value or need. It was a simple question....why? I did however mislead myself in thinking it would be an easy search. Just simply investigating Christianity is not...simple. I learnt a long time ago Christianity was for me, in my opinion, hogwash. But I still investigate it, leaving out emotional values. Consider it an investigation using reason, cognitive thinking skills and the like. The same is applied to Islam and Buddhism, etc. If you leave out the emotional values, you think more clearly.
The last sentence in question considers the fact that atheism is not for you, for whatever reason. It is possible that you may find another sort of religion or spirituality that appeals to. That's what I mean by "whatever shape it may take." If this may be the case, that some other sort of religion suits you, you should investigate why it suits you. Odds are there is some sort of emotional value in that equation.
QuoteOne final comment on your signature, I agree that faith is problematic, especially in the face of cold, hard facts. Something that I watch more closely these days is the apologetics arguments that Christians use to try and show that the Christian religion holds up when examined with reason. It's been curious to see how when they reach the point of becoming a circular argument, and the spinning is called out, at the end of the day it still comes down to "faith." And at the end of the day, if God's a big boy and can speak up (being able to do everything), then there shouldn't be a need for letting his son's/his own sacrifice be left to chance out of doubt and the need for faith, when it would be so easy to just manifest and just say to everyone on the planet, "Ok, listen carefully, take notes if you like, and I'll repeat myself a couple times and respond to clarifying questions; so, here's how it is..." The whole faith thing just doesn't make sense; there's no reason to leave it up to faith.
Very well said!
QuoteI definitely plan to continue investigating. When some questions cropped up, I made sure I got my Bible out of storage for reference. I'm currently reading though Buddhist literature, there are some aspects about it that I've always been curious about. My mind glazes over on occasion and I speed through the parts where everyone worships Buddha, it sure resembles the unfortunate divinity hyperbole that appears in the Bible, too. Here and there are thought provoking dashes of wisdom that are meant to be practical approaches in life, so my brain enjoys munching on those tidbits.
That was very well said as well. It is fine and dandy to pluck tidbits out of text, religious/spiritual or otherwise, just keep using that critical eye.