Happy Atheist Forum

I'm not Catholic, but I loved this article and thought I'd like to share it.

"Throughout history people have been awed and thrilled by retellings of their culture’s creation story.

Aztecs would tell of the Lady of the Skirt of Snakes, Phoenicians about the Zophashamin, and Jews and Christians about the one true Godâ€"Jehovah. But there is one unfortunate groupâ€"the children of atheistic materialistsâ€"that has no creation myth to call its own. When an inquisitive tyke asks who created the sun, the animals, and mankind, their materialist parents can only tell them to read a book by Carl Sagan or Richard Dawkins.

But what sort of story are they likely to find? Should they be told, as famed astrophysicist Stephen Hawking claims in his recent book The Grand Design that “the universe… create[d] itself from nothing”?

Since Hawking's explanation is a bit too drab and nospecific for bedtime reading I’ve decided to take the elements of materialism and shape them into a purportedly accurate, though mythic, narrative. This is what our culture has been missing for far too longâ€"a creation story for young atheistic materialists.

******

In the beginning was Nothing, and Nothing created Everything. When Nothing decided to create Everything, she filled a tiny dot with Time, Chance, and Everything and had it expand. The expansion spread Everything into Everywhere carrying Time and Chance with it to keep it company. The three stretched out together leaving bits of themselves wherever they went. One of those places was the planet Earth.

For no particular Reasonâ€"for Reason is rarely particularâ€"Time and Chance took a liking to this little, wet, blue rock and decided to stick around to see what adventures they might have. While the pair found the Earth to be intriguing and pretty, they also found it a bit too quiet, too static. They fixed upon an idea to change Everything (just a little) by creating a special Something. Time and Chance roamed the planet, splashing through the oceans and sloshing through the mud, in search of materials. But though they looked Everywhere, there was a missing ingredient that they needed in order to make a Something that could create more of the same Somethings.

They called to their friend Everything to help. Since Everything had been Everywhere she would no doubt be able to find the missing ingredient. And indeed she did. Hidden away in a small alcove called Somewhere, Everything found what Time and Chance had needed all along: Information. Everything put Information on a piece of ice and rock that happened to be passing by the former planet Pluto and sent it back to her friends on Earth.

Now that they had Information, Time and Chance were finally able to create a self-replicating Something which they called Life. Once they created Life they found that it not only grew into more Somethings, but began to become Otherthings, too! The Somethings and the Otherthings began to fill the Earthâ€"from the bottom of the oceans to the top of the sky. Their creation, which began as a single Something, eventually became millions and billions of Otherthings.

Time and Chance, though, where the bickering sort and were constantly feuding over which of them was the most powerful. One day they began to argue over who had been more responsible for creating Life. Everything (who was forever eavesdropping) overheard the spat and suggested that they settle by putting their creative skills to work on a new creature called Man. They all thought is was a splendid planâ€"for Man was a dull, hairy beast who would indeed provide a suitable challengeâ€"and began to boast about who could create an ability, which they called Consciousness, that would allow Man to be aware of Chance, Time, Everything, and Nothing.

Chance, always a bit of a dawdler, got off to a slow start, so Time, who never rested, completed the task first. Time rushed around, filling the gooey matter inside each Man’s head with Consciousness. But as he was gloating over his victory he noticed a strange reaction. When Man saw that Everything had been created by Time, Chance, and Nothing, his Consciousness filled with Despair.

Chance immediately saw a solution to the problem and took the remaining materials she was using to make Consciousness to create Beliefs. When Chance mixed Beliefs into the gray goo, Man stopped filling with Despair and started creating Illusions. These Illusions took various formsâ€"God, Purpose, Meaningâ€"and were almost always effective in preventing Man from filling up with Despair.

Nothing, who tended to be rather forgetful, remembered her creation and decided to take a look around Everything. When she saw what Time and Chance had done on planet Earth she was mildly amused, but forbade them to fill any more creatures with Consciousness or Beliefs (which is why Man is the only Something that has both). But Nothing took a fancy to Man and told Time and Chance that when each one’s Life ran out, she would take him or her and make them into Nothing too.

And that is why, children, when Man loses his Life he goes from being a Something created by Time and Chance into becoming like his creatorâ€"Nothing."
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/ ... everything (http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/12/when-nothing-created-everything)

As long as we all remember that:

Quote from: "Achronos"I’ve decided to take the elements of materialism and shape them into a purportedly accurate, though mythic, narrative.

Quote from: "Gawen"As long as we all remember that:

Quote from: "Achronos"I’ve decided to take the elements of materialism and shape them into a purportedly accurate, though mythic, narrative.

A mythic narrative, whose lesson is the absurdity of materialism.

Quote from: "Achronos"

Quote from: "Gawen"As long as we all remember that:

Quote from: "Achronos"I’ve decided to take the elements of materialism and shape them into a purportedly accurate, though mythic, narrative.

A mythic narrative, whose lesson is the absurdity of materialism.

The absurdity is a theist defining a story for young atheists about creation by personifying things such as Nothing, Time and Chance. This is a simple, lame and warped attempt by a very manipulative and deceitful theist at trying to make an atheistic view seem in the same ball park of absurdity to that of a theistic view.

Utter trash if you ask me.

Quote from: "Achronos"A[n inaccurate] mythic narrative, whose lesson is the absurdity of materialism.

I fixed it for you.  No thanks necessary.

I actually enjoyed it for the most part.  However, if it were intended to show the absurdity of "materialism" (by which I take it you mean our current scientific understanding of reality) then it should sound more like the actually absurd stories told to children by priests and Sunday school teachers.  I guess that the author didn't want to do that, because it might be shooting himself in the foot.  

 On the other hand, with some work to actually bring the ideas contained into line with current cosmology and biology (information from beyond Pluto?  really?) and some polishing in the writing style, it could make a fine children's book.

In my opinion it was not bad at all for a first draft.

It sounds just like any other creation story, written by someone with a slightly better understanding of science than the people who wrote genesis. I sounds really ignorant when people try and make atheism out to be some kind of religion, even then it still ends up being less ridiculous sounding than any other religion.

As for absurdity, would you believe that some people base their entire conceptualization of the universe around some story involving a talking snake and a magic apple?

That Really was One Long waLl of text that wasn't worth reading. But thanks anyway.

Sorry, Achronos, I'm with Ihateyoumike.  It looks as though it ought to contain some deep meaning, but I can't find any.  IMO it gets you no further.

Here's a fun one:
The Wizard of Ooze (http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v5i7f.htm)

Quote from: "Achronos"A mythic narrative, whose lesson is the absurdity of materialism.

I think the lesson here is that someone had to turn science into a mythic narrative in order to make it absurd while religion is that way on its own.

Quote from: "Voter"Here's a fun one:
The Wizard of Ooze (http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v5i7f.htm)

That was a fun story. The ending was kind of a cop-out, though. I mean, she didn't even learn a good moral or lesson or anything. In fact, she got stupider.

... I've always liked FireSign's creation story:

QuoteBefore the beginning, there was this turtle. And the turtle was alone. And he looked around. And he saw his neighbor, which was his mother, and he lay down on top of his neighbor,  and behold, she bore him in tears, an oak tree, which grew all day, and then fell over, like a bridge. And low, under the bridge there came a catfish, and he was very big, and he was walking, and he was the biggest he had seen. And so, with the firey balls of this fish, one of which is the sun, and the other, they called the moon…

Full text in this thread:
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2595

Quote from: "Voter"Here's a fun one:
The Wizard of Ooze (http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v5i7f.htm)

Now this one is, as the great H. L. Mencken might have said, a farrago of buncombe.  It's pathetic; filled from beginning to end with lies, canards and straw man arguments.  I'm only going to list some of them:

Lie: "They have such strong arguments against the theory of evolution that I can’t refute them."

Canard: "...life originated, all by itself, in a puddle of ooze..."

Lie: "I can’t give you any good scientific arguments supporting evolution."

Lie: "Louis Pasteur proved there is no such thing as abiogenesis." (I'm kind of surprised that Francesco Redi isn't mentioned as well.  I often see his experiment mentioned alongside Pasteur's, and it is of course equally irrelevant to modern concepts of abiogenesis.)

Canard: “How do you know conditions were different then? [Talking about reducing atmosphere of early earth, for which there is evidence.] Were you there? [One doesn't need to have been there if there is scientific evidence.]”

Straw man argument: (Very fitting that it's the Scarecrow, in the canard given above, who introduces this one.) '“No, but things had to have been different then, or else life could not have evolved. Since we know life evolved, it logically follows that the conditions had to have been favorable for the spontaneous generation of life from non-living material some time in the past,” she said very confidently.

“That’s circular reasoning, which is not a valid form of logic,” the Scarecrow correctly deduced.'

Canard: "The wisdom to run from a fight against an overwhelmingly superior force may be the most important factor in survival. In fact, that must be true. Otherwise this cowardly lion would never have evolved. Since he did evolve, it must be true that timidity is the driving factor in evolution."

Lie: '“There is only one thing that we have found that can protect us from her [Wicked Witch of the Christian Right] magical spell. It is Darwin’s Origin of Species."'

Canard: "The double helix DNA molecule was far too complex to have happened by chance. Furthermore, the information contained in it had to have come from an intelligent designer. "

Canard: "The more I studied science, the more I found wrong with the theory of evolution..."

Canard: “I had data showing the theory of evolution was wrong, but there is an unwritten rule that one may not publish data refuting one theory without proposing another one to take its place. So, I published papers that showed some particular evolutionary ideas were wrong and made up a different evolutionary explanation that fit my data better.”

Lie: "Creationists have the latest scientific evidence on their side, but it takes more than science to fight against traditional beliefs."

Lie: "No creature will ever evolve wings. No creature ever has. The fossil record shows that birds and bats had wings right from the beginning."

All in all, an unimpressive effort at propaganda.

Let's put things into perspective here

Most faiths have come up with Myths to explain everything because children want to know the answers to everything and adults want children to look at them as being all knowledgable. Hence Myths have been created as children's stories to explain things that the adults don't know the answers to. To help the story be understandable to children key actors within the story need to be personalities or visable common objects as children don't understand concepts.

Science on the other hand has looked towards observations and provable predictions of future observations to substantiate hypothesis before writing books, articles explaining things. A key part of that process is having a skeptical view and review to findings with a comprehensive attack to find fallicies with findings.

A theist thinks it is unfair that science sounds like adult information and instead wants it written in the style of their own childish myths. Hence they basterdise concepts into personalities to make these easier for a child to understand. If we were then to try and rebuild actual scientific knowledge based on this theist authored fake myth but not taking into account any of the knowledge and documentation that we know and hence simply working off this fake myth we would find it impossible to restore scientific knowledge accurately or any where even close to the truth. Science would instead simply discard the myth and start from scratch and would eventually come to the exact same state of scientific knowledge that exists today.

The lesson in all this is that the faith myths are just that, a bunch of useless children's stories which are impossible to decipher. For example, that which the old testament calls God for example may be an actual personality or may simply be a personification of the concept of Random Chance. There is no way to know what the origins of the God noun were. Hence it would be reasonable to suggest that the myths should be thrown away and faith should look to rebuild their knowledge from scratch.

Quote from: "Stevil"Let's put things into perspective here

Most faiths have come up with Myths to explain everything because children want to know the answers to everything and adults want children to look at them as being all knowledgable.

Interesting, but I don't think there is any evidence the writers of say, The New Testament, created the myth of Christ because they all had some inquisitive children who needed some new myths to shut them up, so they got together to create a new one, the resurrection.  And then they left their families and children to tell this story to all the people clammering for a new story, and then ultimately died for something they knew they had made up. "Science" can really cause one to make up some humdinger stories!

Here's my perspective:

I agree, people would want to believe in God whether he existed or not.  I took probably 6 classes on Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell in college, the idea of mans need for "myth" is truly fascinating. And they would want to believe for a variety of reasons. This deep yearning, this spirituality, would cause people to create myths if there was not something real to fill the void.

But I am a Christian, because I believe Christ's resurrection is real.  It is not a myth.  I believe this for many reasons, but primarily for two:

1) Too many people would have known the story was a lie.  Almost immediately they were being killed for this lie.  Within 30 years of Christ's death the faith had spread so widely, it was persecuted specifically by Nero from 64 to 68 AD.  There are people who died in this persecution who would have known Christ, known the Disciples and Apostles, there are disciples and apostles who probably died in this persecution.  These "first-hand" believers, the ones who knew Christ, would have known they were being killed for a lie.  Yet no one recanted, no one said, "it's all a lie, this is how we did it."

2) In the Saints of the Church, while I do believe many of their accounts could very well be made up stories, I believe many of them and many of their miracles.  And I have seen miracles with my own eyes.  These to me are living testimonies of the miracle that took place over 2000 years ago.

As to the Bible.  It was written by men.  The only thing I believe, I'm no biblical scholar so I could be wrong, that was directly written from God's mouth and immediately written down, were the ten commandments.  Other than that, men.  Men who believed and were inspired by God, but were men nonetheless.  So the fact these fallible men wrote a testament of the journey from creation to Christ that sometimes seems odd, sometimes contradicting, sometimes like "sheepherders" is no surprise, in fact, to me it seems perfectly natural.

Human beings are flawed.  We kill people for stupid reasons. We do things to hurt ourselves and our families when we know they will hurt ourselves and our families.  We complain about our lot in life then spend all night wasting time on discussion boards!  We often think we are trying to listen to and follow God, when we aren't really interested in listening or following at all.  The fact the bible reflects all these problems of ours, just makes it more real and valid to me.

So anyway, these threads have been interesting.  Just thought now might be a good time to relate my view.  The idea that science can't prove God is as old as the bible itself, and the idea that faith can never become a science is just as ancient. We've yet to really say anything profound or new on any of these threads.

In the case of Christianity, it really comes down to one thing, do you believe God became man, died and rose from the dead, so we could become more like him and live forever. I believe it.

Quote from: "Achronos"

Quote from: "Stevil"Let's put things into perspective here

Most faiths have come up with Myths to explain everything because children want to know the answers to everything and adults want children to look at them as being all knowledgable.

Interesting, but I don't think there is any evidence the writers of say, The New Testament, created the myth of Christ because they all had some inquisitive children who needed some new myths to shut them up, so they got together to create a new one, the resurrection.  And then they left their families and children to tell this story to all the people clammering for a new story, and then ultimately died for something they knew they had made up. "Science" can really cause one to make up some humdinger stories!

Here's my perspective:

I agree, people would want to believe in God whether he existed or not.  I took probably 6 classes on Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell in college, the idea of mans need for "myth" is truly fascinating. And they would want to believe for a variety of reasons. This deep yearning, this spirituality, would cause people to create myths if there was not something real to fill the void.

But I am a Christian, because I believe Christ's resurrection is real.  It is not a myth.  I believe this for many reasons, but primarily for two:

1) Too many people would have known the story was a lie.  Almost immediately they were being killed for this lie.  Within 30 years of Christ's death the faith had spread so widely, it was persecuted specifically by Nero from 64 to 68 AD.  There are people who died in this persecution who would have known Christ, known the Disciples and Apostles, there are disciples and apostles who probably died in this persecution.  These "first-hand" believers, the ones who knew Christ, would have known they were being killed for a lie.  Yet no one recanted, no one said, "it's all a lie, this is how we did it."

2) In the Saints of the Church, while I do believe many of their accounts could very well be made up stories, I believe many of them and many of their miracles.  And I have seen miracles with my own eyes.  These to me are living testimonies of the miracle that took place over 2000 years ago.

As to the Bible.  It was written by men.  The only thing I believe, I'm no biblical scholar so I could be wrong, that was directly written from God's mouth and immediately written down, were the ten commandments.  Other than that, men.  Men who believed and were inspired by God, but were men nonetheless.  So the fact these fallible men wrote a testament of the journey from creation to Christ that sometimes seems odd, sometimes contradicting, sometimes like "sheepherders" is no surprise, in fact, to me it seems perfectly natural.

Human beings are flawed.  We kill people for stupid reasons. We do things to hurt ourselves and our families when we know they will hurt ourselves and our families.  We complain about our lot in life then spend all night wasting time on discussion boards!  We often think we are trying to listen to and follow God, when we aren't really interested in listening or following at all.  The fact the bible reflects all these problems of ours, just makes it more real and valid to me.

So anyway, these threads have been interesting.  Just thought now might be a good time to relate my view.  The idea that science can't prove God is as old as the bible itself, and the idea that faith can never become a science is just as ancient. We've yet to really say anything profound or new on any of these threads.

In the case of Christianity, it really comes down to one thing, do you believe God became man, died and rose from the dead, so we could become more like him and live forever. I believe it.

The people that the New Testament describes, like the disciples and such, who would have "known the story was a lie"? Probably made up too.

What miracles have you seen with your own eyes?

And I don't believe that science has nothing to say on the matter of God, though you're right that faith can't become science, as they're opposites.

And iSok believes that Mohamed was inspired by God and whatnot, and that you're wrong. Funny, that.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"The people that the New Testament describes, like the disciples and such, who would have "known the story was a lie"? Probably made up too.

What miracles have you seen with your own eyes?

And I don't believe that science has nothing to say on the matter of God, though you're right that faith can't become science, as they're opposites.

And iSok believes that Mohamed was inspired by God and whatnot, and that you're wrong. Funny, that.

As I said, it's a historical fact Nero persecuted and killed Christians in 64 AD.  This is just 30 years or so after Christ would have died.  Are you saying you believe the people described in the New Testament were "made up"?  If so, the story had to be "made up" after 30 AD. And the lie had to have spread enough by 64 AD that "christians" were a threat to the Roman Emperor. The New testament list hundreds of names and people that would have all been based on lies, if it was made up.  That would have taken a lot of dedicated "liers", willing to die for their lie.  And you believe what, the did if for their children? ;)

Ok, so you were snatched from the jaws of death in a way that can't be explained easily by our current understanding of science. By what method were you able to rule out the rather large number of deities it could have been, a benevolent ghost, aliens, steven hawking (he may have powers over space and time we can't begin to understand), superman, or Billy Mays?

Aren't you going to be kinda screwed if it was in fact another vengeful deity who was trying to prove himself to you and now you're giving all the credit to the wrong one?

Quote from: "DJAkuma"Ok, so you were snatched from the jaws of death in a way that can't be explained easily by our current understanding of science. By what method were you able to rule out the rather large number of deities it could have been, a benevolent ghost, aliens, steven hawking (he may have powers over space and time we can't begin to understand), superman, or Billy Mays?

Aren't you going to be kinda screwed if it was in fact another vengeful deity who was trying to prove himself to you and now you're giving all the credit to the wrong one?

He survived even though the zero Survivablity part of the ejection curve told him he shouldn't have, but the curve simply isn't curved enough. He doesn't take into consideration that the curve cannot possibly have all the information needed to make an accurate prediction or excuse. Therefore "Goddidit".
He also doesn't take into account how many times his mother may have thought about him in that way and there was never anything wrong with him....and how many times there was something wrong with him and his mother never knew.

Quote from: "DJAkuma"Ok, so you were snatched from the jaws of death in a way that can't be explained easily by our current understanding of science. By what method were you able to rule out the rather large number of deities it could have been, a benevolent ghost, aliens, steven hawking (he may have powers over space and time we can't begin to understand), superman, or Billy Mays?

Aren't you going to be kinda screwed if it was in fact another vengeful deity who was trying to prove himself to you and now you're giving all the credit to the wrong one?

As someone else who flys, your first sentence is so painfully laughable. Bailing out at 10 feet without a chute from a moving jet... and survived is enough for me. That's messed up. I've personally known people that did the same thing, with a chute, and didn't make it. These ejection seats have engineering charts associated with them. I know how they work, and I know how the human body works enough to know how certain forces will act upon it (G compression, highspeed winds, impacts, flailing, etc) ...The story of my mother is just icing.

Vengeful deity. Of course, to be wrong on the character of God would change many things, including the New Testament Jesus. It also would assume there is no personal (experiential) relationship with God and the faithful.

I've got a question.

DjAkuma, have you prayed recently? Seriously. Not the "God, give me a hamburger... You there...? SEE!!1!" kinda prayer, but a prayer as if to a benevolent Father. Like a "God, I don't have any faith, but I want to know you. I want to know your love and your peace. ...etc." kinda prayer? Not in the televangelist awkward kinda way. But mean it, not just read it or say it. Things happen when you truly open up, and you don't even have to tell anyone.

It's too bad this is all a joke to you, what I described was very real to me.  Sorry my posts weren't helpful to you.

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "DJAkuma"Ok, so you were snatched from the jaws of death in a way that can't be explained easily by our current understanding of science. By what method were you able to rule out the rather large number of deities it could have been, a benevolent ghost, aliens, steven hawking (he may have powers over space and time we can't begin to understand), superman, or Billy Mays?

Aren't you going to be kinda screwed if it was in fact another vengeful deity who was trying to prove himself to you and now you're giving all the credit to the wrong one?

He survived even though the zero Survivablity part of the ejection curve told him he shouldn't have, but the curve simply isn't curved enough. He doesn't take into consideration that the curve cannot possibly have all the information needed to make an accurate prediction or excuse. Therefore "Goddidit".
He also doesn't take into account how many times his mother may have thought about him in that way and there was never anything wrong with him....and how many times there was something wrong with him and his mother never knew.

Of course I considered all this, did you even read what I wrote?  Of do you automatically filter things to fit your story?

I specifically said the miracle part of the story wasn't my surviving(a miracle might have saved me, but it could conceivably be something else science and flight engineers don't understand yet), it was the call from my mother.  And I gave you the data, she's only made one call to me like that in her life and mine.  Of course my mother worries about me, and of course I've had things wrong with me in my life, but only once have I gotten a call like that from her, and it came at the exact time I was about to be ejected in the Zero Survivability zone. Before purusing a degree in Theology, I was a Math major with a minor in Statistics.  I did try to wrap my head around the probability of that many times and it was so astronomical as to be almost hard to comprehend.

I wanted to have a conversation, and I'm being very open.  You don't need to keep reverting to, "nah, hah, so you think Goddidit, you just are replacing ignorance with faith in leprechauns, Billy Mays, etc." This ultimately just stops the conversation, and make's people who might like to have genuine conversation with you stop. Assuming you are here for genuine conversation.  It appears more and more like you just want to play word games.

But I really don't need to say anymore.  Sorry again for stepping in.  It seems like from your response I'm just wasting your time.

Quote from: "Achronos"I ejected from a jet less than 10 feet from the ground.  My chute didn't fully deploy and I lived.  The man I was flying with died. I was flying on a Saturday, when I normally wouldn't have been, and no one in my family new I was flying that day.  I broke my back, and when I returned home, their was a message on my answering machine from my mother.  The time of the call would have been almost exactly when my crash was.  It said, "I don't know why, but I just got on my knees and prayed for you because I felt like you were in danger.  Call me."

I'll leave my surviving the crash even though I was outside the envelope of survivability to chance(an engineer from MD even visited me to explain I should be dead and to try to figure out how I survived on the Zero Survivablity part of the ejection curve), my mother's prayers might very well have had no effect.  But the fact she knew at the almost the exact moment of my crash to pray, when she didn't even know I was flying, and it was documented on the time code of my answering machine, to me that is miraculous.  Science has no answer for that, except that is was pure coincidence. And of course, I'm sure you'll think it's coincidence. Of course, I've never gotten a call like that from my mom before or since. And I used to be a Math major in College, I can't even fathom the probability of getting a message like that from my mom once in my entire life at the exact time I was in a burning jet.

Let's see the accident report. Otherwise, I call bullshit on your story, at least the "Zero Survivability" part. From one former military aviator to another.  

Having been an Air Force firefighter, I second McQ's call of bullshit.  Given that you were dealing with a McDonnell-Douglas engneer, the seat in question would have been the ACES-II, which has zero-zero capability. (This means, readers, that it will provide a functioning chute even after ejection at 0 knots IAS at 0 altitude.)  Also, the ACES-II has strapping to haul in the limbs, minimizing the risk of amputation.  Furthermore, if you were ten feet from the ground, you were almost certainly either taking off or on final.  At either end of the runway, your IAS is not going to be much beyond 200knts if even that, which means you are not going to be having windblast issues. With Gs at 12-14, spinal compression can still be an issue, but nearly as much as the old Martin-Baker Widowmakers.

This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.

Having been on two aircraft (jet) mishap surveys when I was in the AF, I know for a fact that the details of the mishaps are kept almost (if not) Top Secret.  Unless you have some top secret clearance and a better reason than, "Some Christian claims his mother called him while he was flying on an Atheist Forum..." excuse, I'm doubtful you would gain any information.

I had a bad feeling something bad was going to happen the days leading up to the Murrah Building bombing.
I have had other times in my life where bad feelings coincided with bath things happening.  Enough that I started to worry if I had that feeling.  Then had that feeling before needing to leave for an important plane trip and went anyway...a very uneventful smooth plane ride.

Our lives are sporadically visited by odd, sometimes almost unbelievable, coincidences; they only mean something if attempt to apply meaning to them.  Our minds are pattern seeking machines...we remember these few coincidences but forget all the times nothing odd happened.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Having been on two aircraft (jet) mishap surveys when I was in the AF, I know for a fact that the details of the mishaps are kept almost (if not) Top Secret.  Unless you have some top secret clearance and a better reason than, "Some Christian claims his mother called him while he was flying on an Atheist Forum..." excuse, I'm doubtful you would gain any information.

Is that so? (http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/)  Perhaps next time you'd ought to actually research your claim before you make it.  (See also this google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=tJ8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=usaf+aib+reports&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=).)

[Curious people should know, that link links to the last ten years of Class-A mishaps (which involve the total loss of the aircraft) in the US Air Force.]

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Having been on two aircraft (jet) mishap surveys when I was in the AF, I know for a fact that the details of the mishaps are kept almost (if not) Top Secret.  Unless you have some top secret clearance and a better reason than, "Some Christian claims his mother called him while he was flying on an Atheist Forum..." excuse, I'm doubtful you would gain any information.

Is that so? (http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/)  Perhaps next time you'd ought to actually research your claim before you make it.  (See also this google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=tJ8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=usaf+aib+reports&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=).)

[Curious people should know, that link links to the last ten years of Class-A mishaps (which involve the total loss of the aircraft) in the US Air Force.]

Some of those are pretty interesting, I like the one in 2000 when someone crashed a 3.7 million dollar UAV by essentially clicking the wrong menu.

How did you go about ruling out telepathy as being the reason your mom called?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.

Having been on two aircraft (jet) mishap surveys when I was in the AF, I know for a fact that the details of the mishaps are kept almost (if not) Top Secret.  Unless you have some top secret clearance and a better reason than, "Some Christian claims his mother called him while he was flying on an Atheist Forum..." excuse, I'm doubtful you would gain any information.

As has been pointed out, this is simply not true. Aircraft mishaps are not classified Top Secret.

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.

Having been on two aircraft (jet) mishap surveys when I was in the AF, I know for a fact that the details of the mishaps are kept almost (if not) Top Secret.  Unless you have some top secret clearance and a better reason than, "Some Christian claims his mother called him while he was flying on an Atheist Forum..." excuse, I'm doubtful you would gain any information.

As has been pointed out, this is simply not true. Aircraft mishaps are not classified Top Secret.

I said "almost".  It's a fact as it related to me...apparently they may go public at some point.  My two were bombing range related.  Maybe that's the difference, maybe not.  I don't keep up with it since, but that was my experience while I was in.  I'm still doubtful though.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"As I said "almost".  It's a fact as it related to me...apparently they may go public at some point.  My two were bombing range related.  Maybe that's the difference, maybe not.  I don't keep up with it since, but that was my experience while I was in.  I'm still doubtful though.

In the US, the FOIA allows us to request accident reports, free of charge, for any military accident. It usually takes up to two months to receive one.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "McQ"As has been pointed out, this is simply not true. Aircraft mishaps are not classified Top Secret.

I said "almost".  It's a fact as it related to me...apparently they may go public at some point.  My two were bombing range related.  Maybe that's the difference, maybe not.  I don't keep up with it since, but that was my experience while I was in.  I'm still doubtful though.

I doubt it is any different with bomb-range accidents; the fifth and seventh entries here (http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/USAF/211/) document bomb-range mishaps.

Also, this report (http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/010313-00021950.htm) documents the deaths of some personnel in an overseas bomb-range mis-bombing.

There doesn't appear to be any veil of secrecy over bomb range mishaps.  Additionally, it doesn't appear from the circumstances that this mishap occurred on a range.

At any rate, hopefully Achronos will provide the requested data.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "McQ"As has been pointed out, this is simply not true. Aircraft mishaps are not classified Top Secret.

I said "almost".  It's a fact as it related to me...apparently they may go public at some point.  My two were bombing range related.  Maybe that's the difference, maybe not.  I don't keep up with it since, but that was my experience while I was in.  I'm still doubtful though.

I doubt it is any different with bomb-range accidents; the fifth and seventh entries here (http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/USAF/211/) document bomb-range mishaps.

Also, this report (http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/010313-00021950.htm) documents the deaths of some personnel in an overseas bomb-range mis-bombing.

There doesn't appear to be any veil of secrecy over bomb range mishaps.  Additionally, it doesn't appear from the circumstances that this mishap occurred on a range.

At any rate, hopefully Achronos will provide the requested data.

I'm going to go ahead and beat him to the punch and make the response for him, "it was a classified mission so there's no publicly available documents" or perhaps "it was the RAF, they don't have the same policies regarding making their accident reports public", or possibly "My god ate it".

There, that should cover most of the bases.

QuoteRe: When Nothing Created Everything

QuoteA mythic narrative, whose lesson is the absurdity of materialism.

Nothing can not be a person, object, substance, entity, place, or thing.. Thus making the notion of materialism an absurdity at best an absurdity!. It's a logical fallacy fail at the highest possible level. So one's failure to understand reality, is no excuse for one to make up nonsensical drivel and then try to rationalize it as some sort or magical truth. It's called circumventing logic and reason to get people to believe a pile of complete nonsense.

Nothing by definition is complete an utter irrelevance, and there never was "nothing", nor did the universe come from "nothing" in scientific terms. This also tells me that someone doesn't understand the definition of nothing in the literal context. It's theism trying to claim something can be simpler than the Universe in complexity to exist as a negative object, existence, substance, entity, place, or thing as if it were magically possible. That is what you call a complete collapse of logic, reason, and rationality in favor for mythical impossibilities.

Quote from: "Achronos"

Quote from: "Stevil"Let's put things into perspective here

Most faiths have come up with Myths to explain everything because children want to know the answers to everything and adults want children to look at them as being all knowledgable.

Interesting, but I don't think there is any evidence the writers of say, The New Testament, created the myth of Christ because they all had some inquisitive children who needed some new myths to shut them up, so they got together to create a new one, the resurrection.  And then they left their families and children to tell this story to all the people clammering for a new story, and then ultimately died for something they knew they had made up. "Science" can really cause one to make up some humdinger stories!

New Testament could have come about because there were lots of children's myths out there but nothing to seperate the boys from the men. Hence a new book was written in a semi-adult fashion where the superhero has special hero powers especially around water e.g. water into wine, walk on water etc. Really it seems that the Romans were struggling to control the people so they put the Christian Bible together in a special edit version to suit their needs. Less of a myth more of a fantasy fiction with a moral to be good and do as you are told and accept the laws of the goverment.

My point is, if we were to burn these books and miraculously erase this knowledge from all humans, it is unlikely that Christianity would ever look the same. However if we were to burn the science books and miraculously erase this knowledge from all humans it is likely the scientists would come to the same state of knowledge. Why?, because one is logically provable and derivable based on an objective truth where as the other is a story based on imagination or a momentary set of events or both.

QuoteI ejected from a jet less than 10 feet from the ground. My chute didn't fully deploy and I lived. The man I was flying with died. I was flying on a Saturday, when I normally wouldn't have been, and no one in my family new I was flying that day. I broke my back, and when I returned home, their was a message on my answering machine from my mother. The time of the call would have been almost exactly when my crash was. It said, "I don't know why, but I just got on my knees and prayed for you because I felt like you were in danger. Call me."

I'll leave my surviving the crash even though I was outside the envelope of survivability to chance(an engineer from MD even visited me to explain I should be dead and to try to figure out how I survived on the Zero Survivablity part of the ejection curve), my mother's prayers might very well have had no effect. But the fact she knew at the almost the exact moment of my crash to pray, when she didn't even know I was flying, and it was documented on the time code of my answering machine, to me that is miraculous. Science has no answer for that, except that is was pure coincidence. And of course, I'm sure you'll think it's coincidence. Of course, I've never gotten a call like that from my mom before or since. And I used to be a Math major in College, I can't even fathom the probability of getting a message like that from my mom once in my entire life at the exact time I was in a burning jet.

This sounds a lot like the prefabricated stories I've used myself, or that of others. It's a common story among theists but the story varies with each iteration because it's design is so you can put in your own words. It's what we called in advertising Miracle Fables. I've used them often in pamphlets. And usually they were given to me by an editor/writer working for said this or that Church to use as material. So here are the basics of the Fable:

A) I have heard this story before, and used it often.
B) It usually revolves one's self and a mother or father (but can involve friends ect)
C) It always has the someone couldn't know this factor (language, clothing, what happened ectra)
D) May include prayer
E) Always seems to argue from a Carl Sagan Position
G) Is pleading for sympathy, while being called out on to prove the story.
H) These stories play on sympathy and emotion to gain credibility

Here is an example of copy paste Miracle Fables: I highlighted the key components of these arguments.

QuoteI wont go into people thinking they know everything as existence or non existence such as with Jackle, Albert Einstein once said at a lecture,"With everything that I know, I can be certain of nothing in this Universe." and with each passing day of Science, it brings me closer to believe there has to be a God!

My quick story is not from a book but happened in real life. My father became Ill in October of 2002 and was found with Lung and Bone Cancer. He died on December 21, 2002 at 12 noon here in Deltona Florida. 1 month before his death a former attorney friend of my Dad's (who had not spoken to my Dad in over 4 years) Sent my Father through UPS a Blue and White pin Stripe suit. When my Dad died this was the only Suit he had and was buried in it. My Mother after the funeral called the attorney to thank him and asked why he had sent my Dad the Suit, he said he had a dream that my Dad was going some where and needed a suit, and that my Dad told him that his favorite color was blue, so he looked in his closet, picked it out and sent it.

Now, as my Father Lay in bed for two weeks before dieing, a life long friend of my family that is my age who lives in Massachusetts, was sick and had gone into a Coma in November of 2002. He was in the coma for a little over 2 months and was expected to die. The second week of January 2003 he came out of the Coma and the next day called my mother and told her that he had to talk to her immediately. (Now keep in mind that he had no Idea that my Dad was sick or that he passed away) He told my mother ( Yes I was on the telephone with them, that he saw the white light, went up a tunnel and stopped. About 10 feet ahead of him stood his Mother, his father and my father telling him that he could not Cross over and that he was going back down, that it was not his time. He was told by his mother and my father that he needed to help his brother in law and sister to move to florida. He said he talked to my Dad and asked him why he was there and my Dad told him that he had died. (Again he had no idea that my Dad had passed and was never told by anyone. I was still very skeptical about what he was saying and asked him, "When you saw my father could you tell me what he was wearing?, He laughed and said its funny you said that because he was dressed in a Blue and White Pin Striped suit, (My Dad Never wore a suit in 20 years) He said he asked my Dad why he was wearing a suit and he said my Dad told him because it was a gift.) Now there is no way he could have known my Dad was dead, He was in a Coma, We never told his sister or brother in law that my dad had died because they were going through possibly losing their brother and we didnt want to burden them with our dads death. But the chances of his knowing my dad had died, seeing my dad, then seeing him in a Blue and White Pin Striped Suit, and my dad telling him tha the was dead and wearing the suit because it was a gift , you can guess the odds on that.

In my opinion, death is not something that should be feared but seen as a stage of life. If the truth is that all energy transcends, then we are looking for ansers in the wrong places. Think of how much we can control and understand compared to 100 years ago. We carry the very gift of creation and life in our bodies and create this gift without ever giving it one thought. To find out the true answer, we need to find where all energy goes. There is only one mass that continues to grow before our eyes adn expand, thats the universe. Dont look at religion with the Freak's, the Liars and Scam Artists of today as they are nothing more than filth, look at what the gift of energy is and it may lead you to the real answers as to what we really are.

Or The common paralyzed wheel Chair miracle. : Can you pick out the common elements above?

QuoteYes, and? What's the explanation for someone who doesn't speak Kreyol to start? Or a paralyzed man to get up and start dancing? Or someone who has no idea who my father is, or his name, to tell me exactly how he died when I had no idea how to get any information from Haiti?

Okay, A) this is rude. I'm not sure whether you're calling me gullible or a liar, but I don't appreciate either.
B) I would not use my father's death as proof of anything that wasn't true, especially not a religion he didn't believe in and thought to be the work of the devil.

Miracle Fables are very common in religious propaganda because they are appealing to emotional attachments, and seeking people who are easily manipulated. Yeah, I am revealing some nasty little secret in what theists use as preaching and debating arguments. They are typically a dime a dozen these days. It's as bad as watching those fake healing sessions on TV. Btw, the blue highlights are usually another dead give-away not listed above because the smarter ones will leave that bit out of the fable.

Quote from: "TheJackel"Yeah, I am revealing some nasty little secret in what theists use as preaching and debating arguments. They are typically a dime a dozen these days. It's as bad as watching those fake healing sessions on TV.

Question for you Jackel, do these people believe in their god?
Why do they need to resort to deciept if they think their god is true, wouldn't they think that there must be true stories to tell?

Quote from: "Stevil"

Quote from: "TheJackel"Yeah, I am revealing some nasty little secret in what theists use as preaching and debating arguments. They are typically a dime a dozen these days. It's as bad as watching those fake healing sessions on TV.

Question for you Jackel, do these people believe in their god?
Why do they need to resort to deciept if they think their god is true, wouldn't they think that there must be true stories to tell?

A: They don't really believe, and have something to gain from it
B: Defend the ideology at all costs
C: Manipulate others into the ideology
D: May believe a lie will help bring someone into salvation.
E: Is advertising and preaching looking to convert easily manipulated people on emotional pleading/ignorance. (This is what I was specifically guilty of doing)
F: Uses the argument as a credibility tool when other arguments don't work.

Basically, Theists of this sort have no problem barring false witness if it will service their agenda. It's pathetic, and it makes me sick that I myself have used these kinds of arguments before  :pop: It's also usually the more fundamentalists and radicals that use those arguments. But I have seen others believe that TV Healing sessions were "Real".  

Quote from: "Stevil"Question for you Jackel, do these people believe in their god?
Why do they need to resort to deciept if they think their god is true, wouldn't they think that there must be true stories to tell?

Well, the first stories taught about a spiritual Jesus (written by Paul) and they lied for Jesus. The Gospels, written way after the alleged fact, lied for jesus when they attempt to put a face on and a life about the 'spiritual' Jesus.

So what stories are true that do not require a humungous leaf of faith?

About the 'miracle story'... I'd like to see a report of that incident, myself.  People search for reasons to believe in god.  I can see how, if this guy was searching for a reason to believe, he could even unknowingly distort the facts to himself in order to strengthen his believe in his god.  Why are miracles necessary if everything is god's will?  How do you know that your living through this accident was a good thing?  Why is living preferable if heaven is waiting for you?  We assume living is preferable b/c it's our human instinct to want to live, but when a christian child dies, the christians say: "it was god's will".

Quote from: "periwinklefish"About the 'miracle story'...  My first instinct is also to call BS, and I'd like to see a report of that incident, myself.  All miracle stories sound this way.   There appears to be no way to dispute it, but then, no one can actually prove any of the events claimed to have happened.  And in most cases there is a logical explanation, but that's not quite as interesting or fun for a believer's mind.  Also, people search for reasons to believe in their god.  I can see how, if this guy was searching for a reason to believe, he could even unknowingly distort the facts to himself in order to strengthen his believe in his god.  Totally within the realm of human behavior.  But, again, (to the christian pilot guy) how do you know it was your god who saved you?  

Further, why are miracles necessary if everything is god's will?  How do you know that your living through this accident was a good thing?  Why is living preferable if heaven is waiting for you?  We assume living is preferable b/c it's our human instinct to want to live, but when a christian child dies, the christians say: "it was god's will".  HMMM?  When I was a christian, why didn't my god save me from a debilitating accident to my C5-7 region?  Was I not 'graced' with god's love?

Actually it's been a prefabricated story for a very long time. It's one of the key tools in religious propaganda, and you can usually tell which version or structure they are using by noting the key elements used. It was developed by the same type of people that do those TV healing sessions.. I've seen literally hundreds of these things. I had even seen someone take someone's real life survival story and plagiarizer it for this very kind of argument... This doesn't mean that people don't experience things they don't understand. But I can tell you with nearly 100 percent certainty that the story posted here today was indeed a pre-fab Miracle story.  

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Having been an Air Force firefighter, I second McQ's call of bullshit.  Given that you were dealing with a McDonnell-Douglas engneer, the seat in question would have been the ACES-II, which has zero-zero capability. (This means, readers, that it will provide a functioning chute even after ejection at 0 knots IAS at 0 altitude.)  Also, the ACES-II has strapping to haul in the limbs, minimizing the risk of amputation.  Furthermore, if you were ten feet from the ground, you were almost certainly either taking off or on final.  At either end of the runway, your IAS is not going to be much beyond 200knts if even that, which means you are not going to be having windblast issues. With Gs at 12-14, spinal compression can still be an issue, but nearly as much as the old Martin-Baker Widowmakers.

This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.

I like the idea that an Air Force firefighter would be an authority on military aeronautic engineering and physiology.

Quotethe seat in question would have been the ACES-II

LOL! I wish it had been an ACES-II.  But I wasn't flying an F-18, I was flying a 40 plus year old T-2 Buckeye sherlock.

Talk about a little bit of knowlege can get someone in trouble.  The accident was over a decade ago.  I wasn't in an ACES-II ZERO/ZERO seat.  I was in an old, single rocket, single stage, non-gyro seat in a 40 plus year old jet, the T-2 buckeye. You go in the direction the jet is pointing.  Mine was low, slow, and perpendicular to the ground with the wing touching when I shot out. I was traveling well over a 100mph, free in the air, parallel to the ground, and between 10 and 20 feet in the air after I was shot out.

Quoteeither end of the runway, your IAS is not going to be much beyond 200knts if even that, which means you are not going to be having windblast issues

Oh, and again, we caught fire on take off, going just a little more than a 100 knots when we ejected probably.  The problem isn't "windblast", the problem is there isn't enough air speed for an old seat like that to 1) properly separate from jet, 2) fully open the shoot, and 3) have enough altitude for all of this to occur.  That is why the most dangerous place to eject is low and slow, and the second most is really fast and spinning at any altitude. Also, since there is no gyro, you go where the jet is pointed, so I didn't go up, I went parallel to the ground. Some observers didn't even see me get out I was flying through the air so low to the ground.

Also, when you are that low and slow with those old seats, the force of the single-rocket shooting you out can fracture your spine, and then when you hit the ground without a fully-deployed shoot it just makes it worse.

A seat like an Aces II has multiple rockets and a gyro mechanism to get you out less violently, point you UP, and then shoot you away from the ground.  If I had had that, I would have been smoking cigars later in the evening rather than lying in a hospital bed and my co-pilot dead.

Welcome back, Achronos.  

Quote from: "Achronos"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Having been an Air Force firefighter, I second McQ's call of bullshit.  Given that you were dealing with a McDonnell-Douglas engneer, the seat in question would have been the ACES-II, which has zero-zero capability. (This means, readers, that it will provide a functioning chute even after ejection at 0 knots IAS at 0 altitude.)  Also, the ACES-II has strapping to haul in the limbs, minimizing the risk of amputation.  Furthermore, if you were ten feet from the ground, you were almost certainly either taking off or on final.  At either end of the runway, your IAS is not going to be much beyond 200knts if even that, which means you are not going to be having windblast issues. With Gs at 12-14, spinal compression can still be an issue, but nearly as much as the old Martin-Baker Widowmakers.

This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.

I like the idea that an Air Force firefighter would be an authority on military aeronautic engineering and physiology.

Quotethe seat in question would have been the ACES-II

LOL! I wish it had been an ACES-II.  But I wasn't flying an F-18, I was flying a 40 plus year old T-2 Buckeye sherlock.

Talk about a little bit of knowlege can get someone in trouble.  The accident was over a decade ago.  I wasn't in an ACES-II ZERO/ZERO seat.  I was in an old, single rocket, single stage, non-gyro seat in a 40 plus year old jet, the T-2 buckeye. You go in the direction the jet is pointing.  Mine was low, slow, and perpendicular to the ground with the wing touching when I shot out. I was traveling well over a 100mph, free in the air, parallel to the ground, and between 10 and 20 feet in the air after I was shot out.

Quoteeither end of the runway, your IAS is not going to be much beyond 200knts if even that, which means you are not going to be having windblast issues

Oh, and again, we caught fire on take off, going just a little more than a 100 knots when we ejected probably.  The problem isn't "windblast", the problem is there isn't enough air speed for an old seat like that to 1) properly separate from jet, 2) fully open the shoot, and 3) have enough altitude for all of this to occur.  That is why the most dangerous place to eject is low and slow, and the second most is really fast and spinning at any altitude. Also, since there is no gyro, you go where the jet is pointed, so I didn't go up, I went parallel to the ground. Some observers didn't even see me get out I was flying through the air so low to the ground.

Also, when you are that low and slow with those old seats, the force of the single-rocket shooting you out can fracture your spine, and then when you hit the ground without a fully-deployed shoot it just makes it worse.

A seat like an Aces II has multiple rockets and a gyro mechanism to get you out less violently, point you UP, and then shoot you away from the ground.  If I had had that, I would have been smoking cigars later in the evening rather than lying in a hospital bed and my co-pilot dead.

Your description sounds nearly identical to this youtube video in regards to being low and parallel to the ground ejection. Accept I think you tried to skew it and make a survival story out of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI9SjKT- ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI9SjKT-oWM&feature=related)

Also your so called story doesn't actually match with the accident history of the T2-buck eye that I can even find. Unless you are going to claim you are magically that student that crashed his plane on the deck.