Here is a Ted Talk that might be interesting to my esteemed colleagues. This is about crows and Ravens. xSp will surely be interested because it is all about brains. Take the 22 minute excursion into the minds of birds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fiAoqwsc9g Definitely interesting to we seekers of earthly understanding.
I have a backyard bird feeder and a good spotting scope that can observe them up close and personal. I see different behavior patterns for various ones like Cardinals, Woodpeckers,Wrens, Blue Jays, Doves and others. Recently I had an Osprey show up as a curious spectator not a raptor or feeder. He did not intimidate the smaller avians at all. (he is a fierce and efficient hunter who is exclusively a fish eater)
At the parking lot of my local supermarket grocery store, pizza shop, clothing store, Subway sandwich stand etc... there are almost always a bunch of crows who are actively exploring the parking lot where ....sorry to say,....low rent human slobs sometimes toss food residue. The crows are all but tame. they seem to have no fear of the traffic and the people who constantly go to and fro in the parking lot. They understand the danger of automobiles and take appropriate measures to avoid harm to themselves. I am fascinated by those little black birds. There are no other bird species in evidence there, crows, just crows.
^
All the members of the crow fsmily are intelligent it seems, but crows snd magpies in partivular from mybobservations.
This is onebif my fsve videos of crows, but it's too short!
:love:
Some birds of the Corvidae family really are exceptional.
They hold a grudge, they don't forget, and they don't forgive.
https://www.livescience.com/23090-crows-grudges-brains.html
QuoteResearchers in Seattle revealed last year that captured crows remember the face of their abductor. Even though years had passed since they saw the threatening face, the crows in the experiment would taunt their captor and dive-bomb him, suggesting the birds held tightly to a negative association.
That goes on to show that the bird's brains activated certain parts of their brains when looking at a "threatening" mask vs. a "kind" mask.
I'm just going to put Crow's spoon here, it might tempt him back.
(https://i.imgur.com/dc5JBEk.png)
I don't think I've changed my identity since our Crow made a post I interpreted as exasperated at my changing names.
Magpies remember people, if they think you're acting suspiciously they'll remember you, for a long time, decades. When I was a kid I made my first dollars going around finding lost balls, climbing trees to get over a fence to get a ball, delving the nooks and crannies, I must of looked suspect to those engorged gonad maddened birds. When I was playing golf they did assault me most unjustly, that kinda thing 'll put ya swing off. I can't prove they caused my debilitating slice but I just don't like them, they have a nice song but I just don't like them, oh and they'll destroy a few human eyes every year. But they were voted favourite bird? It's madness.
Here is a link to what may rightfully be described as a ; Big ass Bird. https://www.yahoo.com/news/flying-creature-size-plane-could-173038666.html
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/ (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/)
Back when I was nipper a teacher said the creator of the wheel was on par with Einstein and his ilk. I'm not sure about this but there seems to have been a bird on par with Fleming.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on November 02, 2017, 11:26:02 AM
[url=https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/]https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/][url=https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/]https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/]https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/][url]https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/]https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/]https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/]https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/][url]https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/ (http://[url=https://www.newscientist.com/article/2138655-birds-use-cigarette-butts-for-chemical-warfare-against-ticks/)[/url]
Back when I was nipper a teacher said the creator of the wheel was on par with Einstein and his ilk. I'm not sure about this but there seems to have been a bird on par with Fleming.
I contend that the wheel was never "invented"!
And get only "About blank" when I hit the link, will try C&P-ing it
Nope, that didn't work either. Do you have a subscription, BP? Might be behind a pay-wall.
Even the most intelligent birds or animals rely on serindipity I think, a chance finding, but sone can communicate or copy. Whether, like humans, they intelligently, or intellectually, associate cause and effect I don't know. Come to think of it a lot of human discovery, particularly Fleming's, has an element of serendipity.
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 11:30:24 AM
And get only "About blank" when I hit the link, will try C&P-ing it
That's a forken enormous link and doesn't even work, I fixed it in the original post.
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 11:30:24 AM
I contend that the wheel was never "invented"!
I don't think the nest was invented, not by a single bird.
Could of been a series of dinos anyway I suppose.
Is that what you mean about the wheel?
I've used logs to move other logs, broom handles to move heavy furniture.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on November 02, 2017, 12:07:03 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 11:30:24 AM
And get only "About blank" when I hit the link, will try C&P-ing it
That's a forken enormous link and doesn't even work, I fixed it in the original post.
Thanks, BP.
Ah, looks like the birdie is just going for the fluff in the filter, as they will for sherpep wool, cotton-grass heads, down from other birds, chopped up bits of knitting wool put into a feeder etc etc.
The anti-pest thing is just lucky chance I am sure. Pure serendipity!
Quote from: Bad Penny II on November 02, 2017, 12:12:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 11:30:24 AM
I contend that the wheel was never "invented"!
I don't think the nest was invented, not by a single bird.
Could of been a series of dinos anyway I suppose.
Is that what you mean about the wheel?
I've used logs to move other logs, broom handles to move heavy furniture.
Your point on rollers is the very point. A roller is not yet a wheel but helps move things. Unless there is a bump in the way, then it stops. So, ets a thicker roller, carve the middle bit fown to a smaller diameter - you now have a bit of ground clearance. But you dtill need three of tgem so when one gets near the back you can slip a new one in the front.
Now you cut those thick end bits off, make a hole in the middle then poke a stick through the holes, refine it by making the rims narrower than the middle. The "wheels" rotate but the "bearer" does not, and it's a lot lighter and, to a degree, more easily steerable . . .
So, not an
invention but a
development over, possibly, centuries by intelligent beings who can consider a problem, analyse it and find solutions.
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 11:30:24 AM
Even the most intelligent birds or animals rely on serindipity I think, a chance finding, but sone can communicate or copy. Whether, like humans, they intelligently, or intellectually, associate cause and effect I don't know. Come to think of it a lot of human discovery, particularly Fleming's, has an element of serendipity.
Chance? The same thing has happened countless times before but the Norms, be 'em bird or hume don't see anything. Then an extraordinary comes along and notices it.
Birds are doing extraordinary things so birds, birds, birds as a group are smarter than we thought.
I posit that there occurs amongst the bird population genius birds that notice things other birds don't. They communicate their findings, birds do a lot of talking.
I think the common human appropriates the doings of the great for the team.
There's a lot of people walking around with pinnacle tech, haven't a clew how it works, looking down at birds.
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 12:16:21 PM
The anti-pest thing is just lucky chance I am sure. Pure serendipity!
That's not what their numbers are saying but I'm not sure there are enough numbers and I want to be amazed and you should always doubt when they give you what you want.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on November 02, 2017, 12:48:17 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 11:30:24 AM
Even the most intelligent birds or animals rely on serindipity I think, a chance finding, but sone can communicate or copy. Whether, like humans, they intelligently, or intellectually, associate cause and effect I don't know. Come to think of it a lot of human discovery, particularly Fleming's, has an element of serendipity.
Chance? The same thing has happened countless times before but the Norms, be 'em bird or hume don't see anything. Then an extraordinary comes along and notices it.
Birds are doing extraordinary things so birds, birds, birds as a group are smarter than we thought.
I posit that there occurs amongst the bird population genius birds that notice things other birds don't. They communicate their findings, birds do a lot of talking.
I think the common human appropriates the doings of the great for the team.
There's a lot of people walking around with pinnacle tech, haven't a clew how it works, looking down at birds.
Oh, certainly some birds have intelligence and can solve ptoblems:
And they do it the same way humans do - possibly birds learned that things could be hooked with a twig of a certain shape. This one adapted the wire which, to it, was just another kind of bendy twig. Thrushes use stones to break snail shells as do some vultures to crack bones open for the marrow. Birds will watch and learn from other birds who have solved food puzzles made by humans. A friend's parrot learned how to undo the safety catch on my watch strap, two buttons to be pressed simultaneously, and never forgot - a good memory is essential for survival.
Like humans they get bored as well, if doing the same thing every time gets exactly the same result they may try something new. Skinner found that buttons that presented food at an irregular frequency were more interesting to birds (and rats) than ones that delivered food every time. Some say there is a similar phenomenon with humans on one armed bandits, anticipation bring better than reward - as every casino and bookie relies on. I am sure Silver will say it has to do with the anxiety hormones of chance and then the rush of pleasure hormone release, the contrast, and how the brain prefers that to bring constantly awash in the pleasure stuff.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on November 02, 2017, 01:08:55 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 12:16:21 PM
The anti-pest thing is just lucky chance I am sure. Pure serendipity!
That's not what their numbers are saying but I'm not sure there are enough numbers and I want to be amazed and you should always doubt when they give you what you want.
Bloke drops his filter fag-end, steps on it and twists his foot to ensure it is out. This action tears open the nicotine and tar (both with biocidal qualities) laden filter. Maybe not enough of either to damage, by contact, even a chick seriously but a good topical dose for a small bug.
Birdie A spots the fluff and thinks it will make good bedding. Birdie B sees this happening and wants some him/herself, looks for more. Birdies C and D see, at different times and locations, A and B collecting more and get into the game . . . In the end they get to recognise even untorn filters and learn how to open them. There ard millions of butts around for millions of birdies everywhere, chances are the two shall meet in more than one place since filter tipped fags were first invented. :grin:
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 01:34:03 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on November 02, 2017, 01:08:55 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 12:16:21 PM
The anti-pest thing is just lucky chance I am sure. Pure serendipity!
That's not what their numbers are saying but I'm not sure there are enough numbers and I want to be amazed and you should always doubt when they give you what you want.
Birdie A spots the fluff and thinks it will make good bedding.
That's not what they're are saying.
QuoteTo firm up the conclusion, Macías Garcia and his team experimented with 32 house finch nests. One day after the eggs in the nest had hatched, the researchers removed the natural nest lining and replaced it with artificial felt, to remove any parasites that might have moved in during brooding. They then added live ticks to 10 of the nests, dead ticks to another 10 and left 12 free of ticks.
They found that the adult finches were significantly more likely to add cigarette butt fibres to the nest if it contained ticks. What's more, the weight of cigarette butt material added to nests containing live ticks was, on average, 40 per cent greater than the weight of cigarette butt material added to nests containing dead ticks.
32 nests doesn't seem very many though.
It could be that birds learned prior to the cigarette butt era that adding things that smelled offensive was the best thing you could do if infested with crawlies.
They may have an innate sense of what crawlies don't like.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on November 02, 2017, 02:05:17 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 01:34:03 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on November 02, 2017, 01:08:55 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 12:16:21 PM
The anti-pest thing is just lucky chance I am sure. Pure serendipity!
That's not what their numbers are saying but I'm not sure there are enough numbers and I want to be amazed and you should always doubt when they give you what you want.
Birdie A spots the fluff and thinks it will make good bedding.
That's not they're are saying.
QuoteTo firm up the conclusion, Macías Garcia and his team experimented with 32 house finch nests. One day after the eggs in the nest had hatched, the researchers removed the natural nest lining and replaced it with artificial felt, to remove any parasites that might have moved in during brooding. They then added live ticks to 10 of the nests, dead ticks to another 10 and left 12 free of ticks.
They found that the adult finches were significantly more likely to add cigarette butt fibres to the nest if it contained ticks. What's more, the weight of cigarette butt material added to nests containing live ticks was, on average, 40 per cent greater than the weight of cigarette butt material added to nests containing dead ticks.
Oops, firgit that bit! :redface:
OK, birds make associations and can learn, that is crucial, but I bet it was serendipity in the first place. Communicating complex ideas like this, though, would surely be through observed example, not verbal language. Birds that flock and/or share mutual nesting sites woukd quivkly pick up on whatever their neighbours were up to - especially if there was an observed advantage in a new behaviour.
I would be surprised if birds actually associated dead chicks with the presence of ticks, some cannot tell the difference in size between their own eggs and those of a cuckoo - so long as it is the right colour/pattern. However they might learn that more chicks survived if filter fluff was used. But, who am I to second guess the experts? Just not happy with their findings, want to know even more about their methods. Itchy intuition syndrome here.
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 02:22:39 PM
Oops, firgit that bit! :redface:
OK, birds make associations and can learn, that is crucial, but I bet it was serendipity in the first place. Communicating complex ideas like this, though, would surely be through observed example, not verbal language.
I'm continuing to think you have an anti bird bias Dave.
Song birds they are a thing, and yet you bet.
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 02:22:39 PM
I would be surprised if birds actually associated dead chicks with the presence of ticks, some cannot tell the difference in size between their own eggs and those of a cuckoo - so long as it is the right colour/pattern.
Dave, you are a fucking anti bird Dave
jocular.
My superior species thoughts often go primal, it's tits, they were made to confound me. Enough should be enough, the extremes shouldn't be attractive to me, I blame Darwin, the internet and monogamy.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on November 02, 2017, 03:03:37 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 02:22:39 PM
Oops, firgit that bit! :redface:
OK, birds make associations and can learn, that is crucial, but I bet it was serendipity in the first place. Communicating complex ideas like this, though, would surely be through observed example, not verbal language.
I'm continuing to think you have an anti bird bias Dave.
Song birds they are a thing, and yet you bet.
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 02:22:39 PM
I would be surprised if birds actually associated dead chicks with the presence of ticks, some cannot tell the difference in size between their own eggs and those of a cuckoo - so long as it is the right colour/pattern.
Dave, you are a fucking anti bird Dave jocular.
My superior species thoughts often go primal, it's tits, they were made to confound me.
On the contrary! I really like birds, and not just as garlic roast chicken!
I would love to own a parrot but am not sure that I could give it the kind of committment one would need, at keast as much as a dog and far more than a cat. Over the decades I have read and watched much on psychology, sociology, ethnology etc of birds and animals as well as humans. During that time I have noticed that much observed "intelligent" behaviour has, in fact, been modified instinctive behaviour.
I am not saying that birds are incapable of learning, by result and by observation. Once a bird solves a feeder puzzle problem, by trying every possible thing it can rather than studying and analysing, it remembers the trick every time. Other birds will carefully watch and learn the trick by example. But thst first time was a mixture of determination eventual serendipity, it huts the solution by "accident" - possibly expending more energy than the peanut provided if the total of all failed attempts were added. But gaining in the long run, until that pesky human changes the puzzle and it starts over again - though it may retain something of the methodology if the puzzle is in any way similar. I watched, until mu bus came, a gull make twenty or more swoops, power climbs and fly-arounds over a busy road, dodging the vehicles, trying to pick up what looked like a single very squashed chip. OK, humans can be that silly as well...
I respect birds, even those magpies that most hate because they raid nests. Brilliant tacticians, one or more divert attention whilst another sneaks in from behind! Youngsters learn by doing, helping their parents. Similarly Harris hawks who hunt as a group, two to harry and "shepherd" the prey animal into an ambush laid by the third.
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 03:44:00 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on November 02, 2017, 03:03:37 PM
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 02:22:39 PM
Oops, firgit that bit! :redface:
OK, birds make associations and can learn, that is crucial, but I bet it was serendipity in the first place. Communicating complex ideas like this, though, would surely be through observed example, not verbal language.
I'm continuing to think you have an anti bird bias Dave.
Song birds they are a thing, and yet you bet.
Quote from: Dave on November 02, 2017, 02:22:39 PM
I would be surprised if birds actually associated dead chicks with the presence of ticks, some cannot tell the difference in size between their own eggs and those of a cuckoo - so long as it is the right colour/pattern.
Dave, you are a fucking anti bird Dave jocular.
My superior species thoughts often go primal, it's tits, they were made to confound me.
On the contrary! I really like birds, and not just as garlic roast chicken!
I would love to own a parrot but am not sure that I could give it the kind of committment one would need, at keast as much as a dog and far more than a cat. Over the decades I have read and watched much on psychology, sociology, ethnology etc of birds and animals as well as humans. During that time I have noticed that much observed "intelligent" behaviour has, in fact, been modified instinctive behaviour.
I am not saying that birds are incapable of learning, by result and by observation. Once a bird solves a feeder puzzle problem, by trying every possible thing it can rather than studying and analysing, it remembers the trick every time. Other birds will carefully watch and learn the trick by example. But thst first time was a mixture of determination eventual serendipity, it huts the solution by "accident" - possibly expending more energy than the peanut provided if the total of all failed attempts were added. But gaining in the long run, until that pesky human changes the puzzle and it starts over again - though it may retain something of the methodology if the puzzle is in any way similar. I watched, until mu bus came, a gull make twenty or more swoops, power climbs and fly-arounds over a busy road, dodging the vehicles, trying to pick up what looked like a single very squashed chip. OK, humans can be that silly as well...
I respect birds, even those magpies that most hate because they raid nests. Brilliant tacticians, one or more divert attention whilst another sneaks in from behind! Youngsters learn by doing, helping their parents. Similarly Harris hawks who hunt as a group, two to harry and "shepherd" the prey animal into an ambush laid by the third.
Dave, I would not recommend getting a parrot. You are correct: they are a huge commitment and responsibility. My little African Grey certainly demands loads of attention and stimulation. She only sleeps in her cage - the rest of the time she roams about the apartment or hitches a ride on my shoulder when she wants to go to the kitchen for a snack. A few months ago she went out onto the balcony, returned, looked up, and said "No water". Her bath was empty. Last week in the car (she always sits on my shoulder and observes the world when I drive), my partner said that he felt like squeezing some oranges when we got home. Lulu immediately piped up and said "Juice". It has become obvious to us that she listens to conversations and often responds appropriately.