3 suicide bombers struck the international terminal at Atatürk Airport. So far 36 dead and at least 140 wounded.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36658187
We were in that terminal 3 weeks ago flying back from a visit with my in-laws. Luckily no one we know has been affected.
Turkey has been a dangerous place this year, with multiple bombings from both the Islamic State and PKK (radical Kurdish group). No one's taken responsibility thus far, but suspicion currently falls on IS due to the use of suicide bombers and specific targeting of civilians.
It's a terrible shame. Not so long ago, Turkey had a great secular future, now it's being dragged into the Islamic madness.
Quote from: OldGit on June 29, 2016, 09:04:14 AM
It's a terrible shame. Not so long ago, Turkey had a great secular future, now it's being dragged into the Islamic madness.
That's what Islam does...
Again, I think no mercy at all should shown upon them. Bomb them out of existence.Teach the terrorists what terror truly is. Make them fear farting in the general direction of anyone that even knows an American.
I know my views on this subject are not agreeed with by many. I am not looking to debate. If you think I am wrong, you are welcome to your point of view. And I do respect the way you feel.
Quote from: No one on June 29, 2016, 03:17:20 PM
Again, I think no mercy at all should shown upon them. Bomb them out of existence.Teach the terrorists what terror truly is. Make them fear farting in the general direction of anyone that even knows an American.
I know my views on this subject are not agreeed with by many. I am not looking to debate. If you think I am wrong, you are welcome to your point of view. And I do respect the way you feel.
Bomb who exactly?
Quote from: Firebird on June 29, 2016, 03:56:13 PM
Quote from: No one on June 29, 2016, 03:17:20 PM
Again, I think no mercy at all should shown upon them. Bomb them out of existence.Teach the terrorists what terror truly is. Make them fear farting in the general direction of anyone that even knows an American.
I know my views on this subject are not agreeed with by many. I am not looking to debate. If you think I am wrong, you are welcome to your point of view. And I do respect the way you feel.
Bomb who exactly?
Take your pick. I don't care who! I have absolutely no sympathy for the middle east. If I can't could pick, it would be Mecca.
Please understand, this is how I feel. I am not asking anyone to agree with me.
Quote from: OldGit on June 29, 2016, 09:04:14 AM
It's a terrible shame. Not so long ago, Turkey had a great secular future, now it's being dragged into the Islamic madness.
I thoroughly agree, OG.
The thought of Turkey, with its present government, joining the EU would have been enough to change my stance and vote Brexit I admit.
Once again, the people are let down by their so-called leaders.
But we have to, somehow, rely on them as a "buffer" state, especially considering the possible total collapse of Syria. How leaving the EU will affect us in this is yet to be seen.
I am torn between my humanitarian values and my wish to protect our people. I can see why some consider Islamophobia a valid responee. In a duscussion on another forum I asked a Muslim how I, seeing a young man, dressed in "everyday" but smart ME style, with shemagh scarf, neatly cropped hair and beard, walking along the road carrying his full rucksack, could tell whether he is a Hadji or a jihadi?
Whether going to worship at Mecca or to fight for Allah the devout Muslim man prepares himself in much the same way.
The Muslim gentleman did not answer.
Quote from: No one on June 29, 2016, 04:10:57 PM
Quote from: Firebird on June 29, 2016, 03:56:13 PM
Quote from: No one on June 29, 2016, 03:17:20 PM
Again, I think no mercy at all should shown upon them. Bomb them out of existence.Teach the terrorists what terror truly is. Make them fear farting in the general direction of anyone that even knows an American.
I know my views on this subject are not agreeed with by many. I am not looking to debate. If you think I am wrong, you are welcome to your point of view. And I do respect the way you feel.
Bomb who exactly?
Take your pick. I don't care who! I have absolutely no sympathy for the middle east. If I can't could pick, it would be Mecca.
Please understand, this is how I feel. I am not asking anyone to agree with me.
Quote from: No one on June 29, 2016, 04:10:57 PM
Quote from: Firebird on June 29, 2016, 03:56:13 PM
Quote from: No one on June 29, 2016, 03:17:20 PM
Again, I think no mercy at all should shown upon them. Bomb them out of existence.Teach the terrorists what terror truly is. Make them fear farting in the general direction of anyone that even knows an American.
I know my views on this subject are not agreeed with by many. I am not looking to debate. If you think I am wrong, you are welcome to your point of view. And I do respect the way you feel.
Bomb who exactly?
Take your pick. I don't care who! I have absolutely no sympathy for the middle east. If I can't could pick, it would be Mecca.
Please understand, this is how I feel. I am not asking anyone to agree with me.
I know you said that you don't want to debate, and no one (haha No one) will force you to respond, but I think it's a little cowardly to throw out something like "We should bomb someone; don't care who, as long as they are in the Middle East. But no debates!" So whether you want to debate or not (again, your choice if you respond) I'm going to reply.
Most of the victims of Muslim terrorism are Muslims living in the Middle East. Source: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/03/u-s-government-muslims-victims-82-97
So basically, in order to wipe out terrorism (not that this approach would work; the wars since 911 have spawned a lot of new terrorists who saw their friends, family members, and countrymen bombed by the West) you would happily also kill the victims of terror. Very nuanced of you.
Quote from: Ali on June 29, 2016, 05:37:44 PM
I know you said that you don't want to debate, and no one (haha No one) will force you to respond, but I think it's a little cowardly to throw out something like "We should bomb someone; don't care who, as long as they are in the Middle East. But no debates!" So whether you want to debate or not (again, your choice if you respond) I'm going to reply.
Most of the victims of Muslim terrorism are Muslims living in the Middle East. Source: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/03/u-s-government-muslims-victims-82-97
So basically, in order to wipe out terrorism (not that this approach would work; the wars since 911 have spawned a lot of new terrorists who saw their friends, family members, and countrymen bombed by the West) you would happily also kill the victims of terror. Very nuanced of you.
Not to mention that this is exactly the mentality that got us into Iraq. Sure, let's bomb someone in the middle east. Doesn't matter who they are or whether they were actually responsible, right?
Quote from: Gloucester on June 29, 2016, 04:23:07 PM
Quote from: OldGit on June 29, 2016, 09:04:14 AM
It's a terrible shame. Not so long ago, Turkey had a great secular future, now it's being dragged into the Islamic madness.
I thoroughly agree, OG.
The thought of Turkey, with its present government, joining the EU would have been enough to change my stance and vote Brexit I admit.
Serious question, would you have wanted to keep Turkey out of the EU 10 years ago as well, or just in light of recent events? I ask because I wonder if Turkey would have gone in a more Western direction had they been allowed into the EU back then. This would have been before Erdogan revealed his true Islamist colors and tilted the country towards the Arab world and against Western values and freedoms.
You all are free to think what you want. I do not want to get into a pissing match. I know you are not going to change my mind, nor will I change yours.
But, I do not care at all about muslims. I couldn't care less if most of the victims are other muslims. I have absolutely no sympathy for them, none at all. None of them. Not the men, not the women, not even their children. They mean nothing to me.
Quote from: No one on June 29, 2016, 07:09:23 PM
You all are free to think what you want. I do not want to get into a pissing match. I know you are not going to change my mind, nor will I change yours.
But, I do not care at all about muslims. I couldn't care less if most of the victims are other muslims. I have absolutely no sympathy for them, none at all. None of them. Not the men, not the women, not even their children. They mean nothing to me.
Why? Honestly, I'm curious. Do you just assume they're all like ISIS?
Quote from: No one on June 29, 2016, 07:09:23 PM
You all are free to think what you want. I do not want to get into a pissing match. I know you are not going to change my mind, nor will I change yours.
But, I do not care at all about muslims. I couldn't care less if most of the victims are other muslims. I have absolutely no sympathy for them, none at all. None of them. Not the men, not the women, not even their children. They mean nothing to me.
Do you feel that way about everybody or just Muslims?
Quote from: No one on June 29, 2016, 07:09:23 PM
You all are free to think what you want. I do not want to get into a pissing match. I know you are not going to change my mind, nor will I change yours.
But, I do not care at all about muslims. I couldn't care less if most of the victims are other muslims. I have absolutely no sympathy for them, none at all. None of them. Not the men, not the women, not even their children. They mean nothing to me.
Just giving your opinion and then saying that you refuse to discuss it, is preaching. I don't much appreciate people preaching at me.
Dehumanizing other humans is a shitty and irrational thing to do. I can understand where you're coming from, it's perfectly normal for people to see some bad thing and then immediately identify the perpetrators and then to draw some arbitrary line (all Muslims in your case), between them and the people you identify as your group. This makes it more difficult for you to see your irrational mistakes because you will refuse to listen to the "other side" or to even see them as humans on the same level as you.
If you will not honestly investigate whether you are right or wrong about a thing, I guarantee that you are wrong about it. The numbers are on my side. We are humans with limited knowledge, if we don't honestly re-evaluate with new information, the odds that we are right about something are not in our favor. Also, we need to refine our judgments in order to make sure that our understanding is as close to reality as possible. I mean, you wouldn't want to go around advocating for the murder of innocent people based on irrational conclusions would you? I certainly hope not.
I respect your right to refuse to honestly evaluate your deeply held beliefs, just as I exercise my right to offer my opinion about it.
Quote from: No one on June 29, 2016, 07:09:23 PM
You all are free to think what you want. I do not want to get into a pissing match. I know you are not going to change my mind, nor will I change yours.
But, I do not care at all about muslims. I couldn't care less if most of the victims are other muslims. I have absolutely no sympathy for them, none at all. None of them. Not the men, not the women, not even their children. They mean nothing to me.
My dear,
No one. Those are some strong words. Do you really mean that? I know sometimes we say things we don't mean when we're angry. You want the Muslims dead, the men, the women, the children. Would you kill them with your own hands? If that's the case, you are one to fear as well.
What happened at the airport makes me sad and angry too, but I don't think killing "all of them" is the answer.--That sounds like something a God would say, and do. "Kill all of them." :eyeroll:
I can readily understand anger and the fear of becoming a victim right here in the US or the UK or other almost civilized places. Killing them all is not the best course of action. There are more than a billion of the supposedly culpable ones we'd have to destroy. Aside from the humanitarian implications of such a program there is the cost, not to mention the dwindling supply of C4. Killing them all just ain't gonna get it. Killing just a few of them ain't gonna get it either. Besides, we can not identify them all. They do not all wear burkas or have dark beards and face masks. Think Fort Hood, Orlando, Boston Marathon and all.
The difficult but not absurdly impossible alternative that we have, is to bring them, somehow, into our circle of friendships and persuade them to become our cooperative partners. That means that we will have to stop bombing them. Yes that seems like a pie in the sky solution but please someone name a more workable solution.
I reckon that we'd need to eliminate the likes of the Boko Haram leaders and others of their ilk, but maybe not. Maybe we could try to re-educate them. We might not have to meet them halfway but we'd surely need to make a few concessions. The whole process of making peace with them might take a hundred years but what are our alternatives?
When we separate any group - ANY group - and say that it's OK to kill them all, or that they have no value, we run the risk of running into the same dilemma that Pastor Martin Niemöller found himself in during Hitler's reign:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
I'm not a fan of Islam either. Killing Muslims however isn't the solution, unless we want to be as evil as Hitler, Stalin, Mao or pol Pot. They didn't succeed either. If only we could make out off the radical Muslims more decent Muslims. The moderate Muslims are not so much part of the problem (unless they invade your country by the millions ;)).
Firebird wrote:
Quote
Serious question, would you have wanted to keep Turkey out of the EU 10 years ago as well, or just in light of recent events? I ask because I wonder if Turkey would have gone in a more Western direction had they been allowed into the EU back then. This would have been before Erdogan revealed his true Islamist colors and tilted the country towards the Arab world and against Western values and freedoms.
And a good question. Thinking back on what image Turkey was getting in the serious media - its growth in technology etc - before Erdogan I would have been happy for them to join. Back then a "bridge" between the Islamic world and the West could possibly have achieved much. Though it could just as possibly got right up the collective noses of Al Q and, later, Daesh.
I remember thinking, "The rot has started" or similar when Erdogan's mob started dismantling the more tolerant, secular, aspects of Turkish society. Still nothing against,the Turks but I would not want Erdogan or any puppet prime minister of his on any council determining any aspect of my life. Moot point now.
Warning to bomb them into oblivion is an irrational approach, which is not justifiable. It's purely one of vengeance which will only breed more terrorists in the short term, meaning more deaths of innocents in the long term.
Is No one a forum member in his own right or another of those fun poes?
Anyway I think he should be referred to as "No One" even though he doesn't capitalise his one.
All the "no one, oh I don't mean No one" stuff is getting a bit dull.
Quote from: Davin on June 29, 2016, 10:00:31 PMJust giving your opinion and then saying that you refuse to discuss it, is preaching. I don't much appreciate people preaching at me.
Is it?
I'd of thought proper preaching would have some statements of fact in it. :-\
Quote from: Gloucester on June 30, 2016, 09:18:19 AM
I remember thinking, "The rot has started" or similar when Erdogan's mob started dismantling the more tolerant, secular, aspects of Turkish society. Still nothing against,the Turks but I would not want Erdogan or any puppet prime minister of his on any council determining any aspect of my life. Moot point now.
Can't disagree with that. My wife (she's from Ankara originally) was warning me about Erdogan long before his true colors came out, but by the time everyone else realized what he was trying to do, he had taken out virtually all of his opposition. Her family is quite secular and very patriotic, but even they're wondering if they'll have to leave eventually. When we got engaged 10 years ago, they were a little upset that she was staying in the US, but things have become so bad that they actively encouraged my sister-in-law to study abroad because they don't think there's any future left for her there. It's heartbreaking to see.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 30, 2016, 02:12:02 PMQuote from: Davin on June 29, 2016, 10:00:31 PMJust giving your opinion and then saying that you refuse to discuss it, is preaching. I don't much appreciate people preaching at me.
Is it?
Yep.
Quote from: Ali on June 29, 2016, 05:37:44 PM
...
I know you said that you don't want to debate, and no one (haha No one) will force you to respond,
...
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 30, 2016, 02:12:02 PM
...
All the "no one, oh I don't mean No one" stuff is getting a bit dull.
...
No it isn't.
;D
Quote from: Davin on June 30, 2016, 02:41:30 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 30, 2016, 02:12:02 PMQuote from: Davin on June 29, 2016, 10:00:31 PMJust giving your opinion and then saying that you refuse to discuss it, is preaching. I don't much appreciate people preaching at me.
Is it?
Yep.
Tomatoes are excellent.
Potatoes are a gift.
Avocados are usually overpriced.
Pumpkin is OK, you need orange
Carrots are long and orange
Apples, I like the green ones.
Oranges are for always
Sweet sweet potato
Onions onions cut thin
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 30, 2016, 04:20:18 PM
Tomatoes are excellent.
Potatoes are a gift.
Avocados are usually overpriced.
Pumpkin is OK, you need orange
Carrots are long and orange
Apples, I like the green ones.
Oranges are for always
Sweet sweet potato
Onions onions cut thin
Ok... :???:
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 30, 2016, 04:20:18 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 30, 2016, 02:41:30 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 30, 2016, 02:12:02 PMQuote from: Davin on June 29, 2016, 10:00:31 PMJust giving your opinion and then saying that you refuse to discuss it, is preaching. I don't much appreciate people preaching at me.
Is it?
Yep.
Tomatoes are excellent.
Potatoes are a gift.
Avocados are usually overpriced.
Pumpkin is OK, you need orange
Carrots are long and orange
Apples, I like the green ones.
Oranges are for always
Sweet sweet potato
Onions onions cut thin
Simply could not agree more with you, BP II 8) We are of one opinion on this.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 30, 2016, 04:20:18 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 30, 2016, 02:41:30 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 30, 2016, 02:12:02 PMQuote from: Davin on June 29, 2016, 10:00:31 PMJust giving your opinion and then saying that you refuse to discuss it, is preaching. I don't much appreciate people preaching at me.
Is it?
Yep.
Tomatoes are excellent.
Potatoes are a gift.
Avocados are usually overpriced.
Pumpkin is OK, you need orange
Carrots are long and orange
Apples, I like the green ones.
Oranges are for always
Sweet sweet potato
Onions onions cut thin
Bad Penny, the patron saint of vegetables, with another inspiring, and incontestably correct, sermon. Next Sunday's topic: Eggplants: Purple by Design, or Felicitous Mistake?
:-[ oops, got a bit confused with the nesting in my last post.
Sooooorrrry!
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 30, 2016, 02:12:02 PM
Is No one a forum member in his own right or another of those fun poes?
Anyway I think he should be referred to as "No One" even though he doesn't capitalise his one.
All the "no one, oh I don't mean No one" stuff is getting a bit dull.
Quote from: Davin on June 29, 2016, 10:00:31 PMJust giving your opinion and then saying that you refuse to discuss it, is preaching. I don't much appreciate people preaching at me.
Is it?
I'd of thought proper preaching would have some statements of fact in it. :-\
Maybe he could change it to "Anyone!" in honor of who he'd like to bomb.
Perhaps I never should have posted to begin with, often times my anger gets the best of me. But, I have already posted, so here goes.
I am not here to fight with anyone about what they think. I am not here to tell you are wrong. I am not asking you to agree with me, I realize most people don't. I get that most people think that I am irrational, or callous, or even insane. I am not trying to convert you, therefore I am not preaching, only stating how I feel. However, islamic extremism is a serious issue. If the extremists kill indiscriminately and don't care who dies, than neither do I. If they see children as acceptable targets, than so do I. You have to be willing to go the distance with your enemy. You have to be willing to show them you can go places they can not. As far as these maggots are concerned, you need to show them that "god" is on your side by unleashing the fires and hounds of hell upon them. Pummel them into submisson. Show absolutely no mercy.
If someone were to go on a rampage and start systematically exterminating them, starting with the children, I would not shed a single tear. There would not be an ounce of remorse. As a matter of fact, just like them I would celebrate in the streets. Honestly, I have more compassion for the cockroach then I do for these things. You can not dehumanize a virus.
Now do I know that not all muslims are bad, of course I do. Do I care if they all die, absolutely not.
As I have said before, nothing you say is going to change my mind. Just as I know, I will not change yours. We can go back and forth all day, or we can just accpet we have completely different views on this subject. Now I sincerely respect and understand how your course of action is utterly different than the actions I would take.
Thank you very much, have a nice day.
Quote from: No one on July 01, 2016, 02:51:56 PM
"Thank you very much, have a nice day."
OK. I'll try, but after that post, it's not gonna be easy. :-\
Quote from: No one on July 01, 2016, 02:51:56 PM
Perhaps I never should have posted to begin with, often times my anger gets the best of me. But, I have already posted, so here goes.
[More preaching]
Thank you very much, have a nice day.
No thanks. Not only did you not add anything, but you just preached all over again by making claims and refusing to discuss those claims. That is boring and useless. Oh well.
Quote from: Davin on July 01, 2016, 03:16:48 PM
No thanks. Not only did you not add anything, but you just preached all over again by making claims and refusing to discuss those claims. That is boring and useless. Oh well.
Um, NO!
My point of view is my point of view. What don't you get about that? What? What do you want to discuss? There is nothing to discuss. They way I feel is the way I feel, there is no changing it. You are free to say YOUR point of view. I still will Not agree with you. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever. So go ahead and say what you will, and I will do the same. I am not trying to convert you, nor I am I trying to get you to come around to my way of thinking. Your definition of preaching is entirely different than mine. As I have said numerous times, I truly do respect your differing opinion on the matter.
Quote from: No one on July 01, 2016, 02:51:56 PM
If someone were to go on a rampage and start systematically exterminating them, starting with the children, I would not shed a single tear. There would not be an ounce of remorse. As a matter of fact, just like them I would celebrate in the streets. Honestly, I have more compassion for the cockroach then I do for these things. You can not dehumanize a virus.
Now do I know that not all muslims are bad, of course I do. Do I care if they all die, absolutely not.
So does that include my wife's family? They're not extremists by any means (they're lovely people, in fact), but they are Muslim.
Well, then I don't see why the Istanbul attack should anger you. The majority of the people who died were Turkish (including some small children) and since Turkey is a Muslim country, they were probably mostly Muslim. So you got your wish!
And now I think I may have to excuse myself from the conversation for a bit, so that Tank doesn't have to smack me with his ban hammer for breaking HAF's civility rule. I'm fresh out of civility at the mo.
Quote from: No one on July 01, 2016, 03:36:05 PM
Quote from: Davin on July 01, 2016, 03:16:48 PM
No thanks. Not only did you not add anything, but you just preached all over again by making claims and refusing to discuss those claims. That is boring and useless. Oh well.
Um, NO!
My point of view is my point of view. What don't you get about that? What? What do you want to discuss? There is nothing to discuss. They way I feel is the way I feel, there is no changing it. You are free to say YOUR point of view. I still will Not agree with you. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever. So go ahead and say what you will, and I will do the same. I am not trying to convert you, nor I am I trying to get you to come around to my way of thinking. Your definition of preaching is entirely different than mine. As I have said numerous times, I truly do respect your differing opinion on the matter.
But if your pov is evidently so far from the norm of any environment it is a bit silly to promote or defend it.
Better to find a forum that has similar attitudes so you don't get "negative" responses and feel the need to get defensive?
Offering an arguement, even a controversial one, for discussion is one thing but . . .
Quote from: No one on July 01, 2016, 03:36:05 PM
Quote from: Davin on July 01, 2016, 03:16:48 PM
No thanks. Not only did you not add anything, but you just preached all over again by making claims and refusing to discuss those claims. That is boring and useless. Oh well.
Um, NO!
My point of view is my point of view. What don't you get about that?
I understand that it's your point of view, but expressing your point of view while refusing to address points made against your claims, is preaching. It doesn't matter what your supposed intentions are, that's definition this forum has given to preaching. Mostly it is religious folk (like pahu), who "just post like, their opinions, man," and refuse to discuss them, but I think it applies here to. If you don't want to discuss and you don't want to be preaching, then why are you expressing your "opinion" to us?
If you just want to get it out of your system, then talking to a wall will do.
If you just want to express it to other people and don't want to discuss it, then that is preaching.
If you want to express it and test whether it's a good thing to hold, then you would be willing to discuss and honestly consider whether the idea you hold is wrong.
Edit: the forum rules:
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.msg18210#msg18210
QuoteNO PREACHING: While everyone is welcome to discuss their views in a civil manner, this forum is not a podium for those that only wish to preach. This rule applies to atheists and theists alike. Preaching means stating your beliefs without providing evidence. If directly asked what you believe you may answer but it would then become against the rules if you were to then refuse to back up your views objectively when honestly challenged. This means that if you want to use your religious text to prove your deity, for instance, you will also need to be prepared to prove that your religious text is an objective source of evidence.
Quote from: Gloucester on July 01, 2016, 04:47:21 PM
Quote from: No one on July 01, 2016, 03:36:05 PM
Quote from: Davin on July 01, 2016, 03:16:48 PM
No thanks. Not only did you not add anything, but you just preached all over again by making claims and refusing to discuss those claims. That is boring and useless. Oh well.
Um, NO!
My point of view is my point of view. What don't you get about that? What? What do you want to discuss? There is nothing to discuss. They way I feel is the way I feel, there is no changing it. You are free to say YOUR point of view. I still will Not agree with you. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever. So go ahead and say what you will, and I will do the same. I am not trying to convert you, nor I am I trying to get you to come around to my way of thinking. Your definition of preaching is entirely different than mine. As I have said numerous times, I truly do respect your differing opinion on the matter.
But if your pov is evidently so far from the norm of any environment it is a bit silly to promote or defend it.
Better to find a forum that has similar attitudes so you don't get "negative" responses and feel the need to get defensive?
Offering an arguement, even a controversial one, for discussion is one thing but . . .
I actually wouldn't mind debating it. I would still find the view repugnant, but this whole "these are my (horrible) thoughts on the matter but I won't debate them because no one is going to change their mind" thing is infuriating as well as repugnant.
Quote from: Ali on July 01, 2016, 05:41:27 PM
I actually wouldn't mind debating it. I would still find the view repugnant, but this whole "these are my (horrible) thoughts on the matter but I won't debate them because no one is going to change their mind" thing is infuriating as well as repugnant.
I've felt what you're feeling, this, "infuriating" feeling when I've read some posts here. That's why my v
ato loco tells me all the time, "Why don't you stop going to that forum--esa? You pick up all that bad energy from all those angry people and then you bring it here, with us." --He's right. :(
The terrorists infuriated
No one, now he/she will infuriate others, and it will never end.--Maybe anger and fear are contagious.
No one has said many times, "these are my thoughts on the matter but I won't debate them because no one is going to change my mind." This time, I will listen, and I'll leave
No one alone with his/her anger.
:secrets1: I know it's difficult to hear someone say, "A certain group of people should die, now leave me alone."
:worried:
So I think No One's basic philosophy is "fight fire with fire" and "do unto others as they do unto you. " I can understand his rage against ISIS et al. But so far their body count in the West is not so large to justify a scorched earth policy, IMHO. Now, at some point, it could escalate to a Hiroshima, but have we reached that point? They are vile, without question. I just think they can be managed without turning the whole ME into glass. Dunno, we'll see.
No One's point of view is completely irrational, emotional, and you can't reason with someone who isn't thinking but feeling. :shrug:
QuoteIf someone were to go on a rampage and start systematically exterminating them, starting with the children, I would not shed a single tear. There would not be an ounce of remorse. As a matter of fact, just like them I would celebrate in the streets. Honestly, I have more compassion for the cockroach then I do for these things. You can not dehumanize a virus.
Now do I know that not all muslims are bad, of course I do. Do I care if they all die, absolutely not.
All that hate, No One? It doesn't make sense. Did you lose someone to terrorism or is it all programming?
It is mid afternoon here in the US. The news has a shooting and hostage situation at a bakery/restaurant in Daka Bangladesh. The reports say that their are about 40 hostages and several people are dead from gunshots.
Bangladesh is predominantly Muslim. Chances are that most of those who were shot and most of the hostages are also Muslims. More of the same kind of madness is occurring all over the map.
I might go along, conditionally, with No One in that it would be permissible to kill the hostage takers and shooters. That ends it there for me because I have no wish, or reason, to destroy innocent people.
If we did set out to annihilate a whole segment of society we will have made more enemies than we can possibly kill. A geometric progression of enemies bent on our destruction is not in our best interest. Why is that hard to understand?
Quote from: Icarus on July 01, 2016, 10:45:28 PM
It is mid afternoon here in the US. The news has a shooting and hostage situation at a bakery/restaurant in Daka Bangladesh. The reports say that their are about 40 hostages and several people are dead from gunshots.
Bangladesh is predominantly Muslim. Chances are that most of those who were shot and most of the hostages are also Muslims. More of the same kind of madness is occurring all over the map.
I might go along, conditionally, with No One in that it would be permissible to kill the hostage takers and shooters. That ends it there for me because I have no wish, or reason, to destroy innocent people.
If we did set out to annihilate a whole segment of society we will have made more enemies than we can possibly kill. A geometric progression of enemies bent on our destruction is not in our best interest. Why is that hard to understand?
I rarely invoke Godwin's Rule, but not only is it a bad plan, killing somewhere around a billion people indiscriminately based on their religion would *literally* make us worse than Hitler.
Quote from: Icarus on July 01, 2016, 10:45:28 PM
It is mid afternoon here in the US. The news has a shooting and hostage situation at a bakery/restaurant in Daka Bangladesh. The reports say that their are about 40 hostages and several people are dead from gunshots.
Bangladesh is predominantly Muslim. Chances are that most of those who were shot and most of the hostages are also Muslims. More of the same kind of madness is occurring all over the map.
I might go along, conditionally, with No One in that it would be permissible to kill the hostage takers and shooters. That ends it there for me because I have no wish, or reason, to destroy innocent people.
If we did set out to annihilate a whole segment of society we will have made more enemies than we can possibly kill. A geometric progression of enemies bent on our destruction is not in our best interest. Why is that hard to understand?
One aspect that I often have to consider when I see news of these sort of events is the fundamental difference in culture, in mindset, between the Western way of thinking and - especially - the extreme Muslim way.
Suicide bombers do it because to die for their faith gives them martyrdom and access to Paradise - for the "true believer" a prize greater than anything acheivable whilst alive.
Killing such makes little difference to them, they have still died for the faith. Those bystanders of the true faith -
Sunni - (Shi'ites, to Daesh and Al Q, are not members of the true faith, possibly they are worse than Christians or Jews) who are killed have also been given an, involuntary, status of martyrdom and are to be praised.
Foreigners or those of the wrong or no faith, of course, get what they deserve for not accepting Allah and his prophet.
Theirs is truly an alien mindset for most of us. I had a third generation in UK Moslem acquaintance who was offended when, on being introduced to his mother, I held her hand in greeting. An automatic reaction for me was an offence to him. His mum grinned beautifully!
We can judge on Western/non-Muslim values but does our judgement mean anything to the strict Muslim? Nope, endless hours of disgusted newsmen and politicians are meaningless to them, probably gives them a feeling of achievenent. For us to be "on edge" all the time over our security and safety is a psychological victory for them.
This is an "assymetric war" where each side sticks to completely opposing sets of rules - there are no "innocents" in the Islamist mindset. Even those "collateral killings", that can be used against Western values in propaganda, die either for the faith or because they deserve to within the Islamist mind.
Sorry for any typos, still in bed and far from "proper" keyboard!
July 3, Breaking news tells us the we have another serious killing event in Baghdad. Will the madness ever stop?
Quote from: Icarus on July 03, 2016, 09:50:23 PM
July 3, Breaking news tells us the we have another serious killing event in Baghdad. Will the madness ever stop?
Only when there are no more mad people left?
Forty, fifty years ago there were almost no mad bombers or shooters that spread fear and destruction. What the hell has happened to change the world? Sure we had wars like in Vietnam where there was mass destruction, but seldom an individually initiated massacre.
Is this merely old mans nostalgia that is mistaken?
Quote from: Icarus on July 04, 2016, 09:00:59 PM
Forty, fifty years ago there were almost no mad bombers or shooters that spread fear and destruction. What the hell has happened to change the world? Sure we had wars like in Vietnam where there was mass destruction, but seldom an individually initiated massacre.
Is this merely old mans nostalgia that is mistaken?
Good question, sort of remember a radio prog that investigated the history of terrorist type bombing. Will have to research that, have looked at the "rationalisation" behind blowing oneself to a mist voluntarily but not the when it became the fashionable path to Paradise.
Quote from: Icarus on July 04, 2016, 09:00:59 PM
Forty, fifty years ago there were almost no mad bombers or shooters that spread fear and destruction. What the hell has happened to change the world?
PBS Frontline will touch on that Wednesday.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-secret-history-of-isis/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-secret-history-of-isis/)
It starts to sort itself out after a while.
https://supportdanielboyd.wordpress.com/usa-printed-textbooks-support-jihad-in-afghanistan-and-pakistan/ (https://supportdanielboyd.wordpress.com/usa-printed-textbooks-support-jihad-in-afghanistan-and-pakistan/)
Will take a look at those, thanks g-d.
The aspects of faith and the perspective of the future come in here. The west has been mostly for gun-boat diplomacy andvtactics for a long time. Got a problem? Lob in a few tons of HE or cash. Problem gone (underground).
Tge perception of the future is a fivkle thing. Most politicians cannot see beyond theirvterm of office and what history will say of them. The Chinese (before and after Communism took over) think and plan for decades to come, the cause tended to come first though, lately, personal fortunes (literal and figurative) have tended to have their effects.
A truly devout, fundamentalist Muslim leader will work, set strategies and plans, for beyond his time in power - for his group's perception of service to Allah and the furtherance of his word. They might argue about day to day tactics and short term strategy but the vision is set on a Global Caliphate, even if it takes hundreds of years. Bin Laden was worth a fortune but, mostly, lived no better than his men - the cause outweighed the personal gain possibly.
However, fashions do change and the almost universal attitude of hatred towards Daesh and Al Q, even amongst some Sunnis, may prove too much of a barrier. This time.
GD linked to the Frontline piece. It gives us reason to become vigilant and fearful. The piece is an hour long. I recommend spending that much time on it. It is an in depth examination of where and how IS became what it is.
No one.....
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDcj2cVd.gif&hash=0810a8025663c58eca6e43fa6ccd950dc360ed66)
You alright?
You've been quiet, lately.