I'm not really trying to make a specific point here, rather just trying to determine the value and reasons for patriotism.
My personal views:
I'm not proud to be an American. I am not ashamed of being American either. I had no control over the location of my birth just as I had no control of the color of my hair. I can understand being proud of a specific government for a specific reason and if that government just happens to be the one that runs the country I live in, then great. I can also understand being proud of some (or even perhaps most) of the citizens of a certain country for a specific reason and if that country happens to be the one I live in, then great. Personally, though, i would be happy with the specific situation and wouldn't translate these feelings into patriotism.
Questions and concerns:
I really don't understand patriotism. Is pride in citizenship of X directly linked to the quality of X's government (as per the view of the individual), or can you be proud to be a citizen of X and not be proud of X's government (and vice versa)?
In the US, it seems the majority of people that are patriotic have a blind sense of pride. On multiple occasions, I have been told to be proud of my country. The number one response to my asking why is "because you live here". If patriotism is so easily achieved, it would be based on where you were born and then random. Doesn't this, then, nullify the defining qualities of pride?
What is the value of patriotism, if any? Does it unite people by giving them common ground or does it cause more conflict with adjacent countries? I can't help but notice (correct me if I'm wrong) that the US "hates" Canada, New Zeland "hates" Australia, England "hates" Scotland... Does this stem from patriotism? How often does it turn into real hate?
Im not big on conspiracy theories, but I can see how it would be a valuable tool used for war. The more pride you have for your country, the more you might be willing to die for it.
Like I said, I'm not really trying to make any points here, just thought I'd ask you all how patriotic you are and what you think about it in general.
For the most part when NZ "hates" Australia, it is friendly sporting rivalry.
We have never had wars against each other and probably never will.
We are into similar sports Cricket, Rugby, Netball.
They are much better than us at Cricket, we are generally better than them at Rugby and I think they are slightly better than us at Netball.
We often have musicians or actors that are either born here or born there so we share ownership.
Anyway, for the most part is it a bit of fun. It is also nice to support a national team or person playing at an international level. Or making some kind of achievement. Maybe for USA they take international achievement for granted, how many gold do they win at the Olympics? But for kiwis, we have a much smaller team, a much smaller playing field, limited quality opponents. When someone like David Tua breaks out of our little fish bowl and does well internationally then it is quite an achievement. NZ also have great ties with Fiji, Samoa, Tonga. We take pride in those from the South Pacific making noise in the world.
I'm much more loyal to my alma mater (Oregon State University) than I am to the US, since I chose to go there, but didn't choose to be born in the US. I guess I'm proud to be an American, but whatever qualities the average American has don't define me.
I don't hate Canada. That's me, personally. I know there are people that do, and I've never understood why. I don't hate any other "nation".
I also find patriotism to be useless. In fact, it has a tendency to bring out the worst rather than the best. In the last decade or so, two examples of bandwagon patriotism spoiled the whole idea for me; 9-11 and when Osama Bin Laden got killed. People went nutzo and America was the shit all of a sudden. Dancing on the White House lawn. Axis of evil. I think people like to be a part of a team- that's why we cheer for sports teams, or claim to be a Mac guy or a Windows guy. Skiers vs. snowboarders; Ford vs Chevy; Pepsi vs Coke; Democrat vs Republican; etc. Patriotism can counter the idea that it is OK for people to disagree on certain things and have differing opinions. "Not if you're a patriot. You should honor your country." Bleh.
Is the US a great place? Sure. But it's not the be all end all, and we certainly better knock it off with all the greatest country in the world nonsense. Besides being really good at war, I'm curious what the US is so great at? I would like to have pride in my country the way I see some people have, where they openly express their love for the old red white and blue... but I just can't. Frankly, I'm ashamed of the public face of the US, in the form of the government and their seemingly constant fuckery.
England is my country, with the UK close behind. That's a bit complicated. I live very close indeed to Wales and I love that too.
I've no huge jingoistic feelings for the UK, but I feel we're still a pretty good place to live. I like the place very much. And I seriously dislike France. ;D
I couldn't be happy anywhere that doesn't have a very deep history and architecture many centuries old to maintain my perspective.
Quote from: OldGit on July 11, 2012, 09:35:35 AM
...deep history and architecture many centuries old to maintain my perspective.
Because it reminds you of your childhood? ;)
^ Ho, ho! I asked for that. But as you will note, I'm older than the big bang.
No - but they keep me grounded. Yesterday I was in Yarpole bell-tower, one of the oldest wooden structures surviving anywhere. Tree-ring dating says 1195, the trees being 200 years old when cut to build it. Stand quietly in somewhere like that, lay your hand on the structure and you feel something indescribable which links you into your heritage. Well I do, anyhow.
I'm not particularly patriotic, the system of government I rate as better than most. I do have an attachment to the landscape. Awful mistakes have been made but a lot of effort is put into preserving what we haven't stuffed up. I love Sydney harbour, don't understand the obsession with sport. The public broadcaster, our equivalent of the BBC is pretty cool.
There aren't any countries I hate, some are pretty screwed up though. I get that people of a small country could be annoyed by a larger ones dominance but I don't understand the reputed US hate for Canada.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 11, 2012, 10:33:23 AM
I'm not particularly patriotic, the system of government I rate as better than most. I do have an attachment to the landscape. Awful mistakes have been made but a lot of effort is put into preserving what we haven't stuffed up. I love Sydney harbour, don't understand the obsession with sport. The public broadcaster, our equivalent of the BBC is pretty cool.
There aren't any countries I hate, some are pretty screwed up though. I get that people of a small country could be annoyed by a larger ones dominance but I don't understand the reputed US hate for Canada.
I have lived in the US all but a few years of my 35. I can't even tell if US hate for Canada is real or a joke. It doesn't make sense considering they're one of our largest training partners with a government very similar to ours. Our fortunes are intertwined by our geographical proximity. I think Canada is just fine.
I'm a lot less patriotic than I used to be. When I was Christian, I had strong feelings about the phrase "God and Country." Being American felt like being one of the chosen ones, that God had blessed us more than other nations because we were better. This is why it's hard for me to be think badly of religious people. I can understand why it's so easy for people to believe ridiculous things. I used to believe ridiculous things.
I'm not particularly patriotic though I am glad I live in the UK rather than some other countries, but I dislike many aspects about the UK. I don't get the rivalry between England and France (I preferred Napoleon) especially when our histories are so closely linked.
Quote from: OldGit on July 11, 2012, 09:40:08 AM
No - but they keep me grounded. Yesterday I was in Yarpole bell-tower, one of the oldest wooden structures surviving anywhere. Tree-ring dating says 1195, the trees being 200 years old when cut to build it. Stand quietly in somewhere like that, lay your hand on the structure and you feel something indescribable which links you into your heritage. Well I do, anyhow.
I enjoy your photos of old structures. :)
As for me, I feel more "patriotic" for Newfoundland than Canada, but it's more a cultural thing than a political thing, I think. No one in Newfoundland reasonably expects independence any time soon (though there are still a few of the older generation who begrudge us joining in the first place. Joey Smallwood can still cause an uproar, let me tell you).
Like the States, Canada is so big that it's hard to feel like we have one collective identity. Heck, I've never been further West than Toronto and I'm sure there are a lot of people from British Columbia who have never been to Atlantic Canada. Even fewer ever venture up North. So, yeah, patriotism tends to be a bit forced here, and is mostly based on "well, we're NOT the States!" Generally, I'm wary of any "ism" that is used to manipulate people en masse.
I find that I feel the most patriotic when someone is bashing the US. Oh, it's okay if I bash the US. I live here, I've got the inside track. But when someone from another country starts bashing on us, I get a little flinty eyed. I was the exact same way about my little brother growing up. :D
I don't think the US really hates Canada. We like to tease and call them the Maple Leaf state and America's Hat, but I don't know anyone that actually actively dislikes Canada.
I was, indeed, implying a sort of friendly hate. Good examples would be flight of the conchords and south park. It's mostly friendly, but it builds into real hate more often than we might think. I live by the Canadian border and our city consistently has Canadian visitors. I guess a lot of them come down here for cheap groceries in bulk quantities. I constantly hear things like; "they're so sheisty" and "Canadians are the worst drivers". I have no tollerence for these hateful generalizations. Nothing is taboo in comedy, though! ;D
As for England and Scotland (or France), they have had more violent and historic reasons to "hate" each other. At one point, that "hate" was hate. Despite the significant differences in levels of "hate", I'm wondering if patriotism is partially to blame. Are there benefits and consequences to patriotism? Do the consequences outway the benefits? This is an interesting question to me. If patriotism is one of the leading reasons soldiers are willing to fight in wars (not necessarily the reason for the war itself), would being patriotic still be considered a good thing for society? It's interesting because it's such a common practice that is almost always praised and almost never looked down upon. Yet it could be a leading cause of war.
Note that I say could and if, as I am not suggesting any of this to be true. Just wondering if it could be.
Quote from: stevil
Anyway, for the most part is it a bit of fun. It is also nice to support a national team or person playing at an international level.
I'm not much of a fan of sports (besides personal sports like skateboarding), but I do enjoy football (I hate calling it soccer). I love the world participation aspect of it and definitely understand supporting your country's team. Personally, though, that still does not equate (for myself) to pride in my country, but pride in my country's team.
I don't see myself as Brazilian in any sense, nor have any real attachment to the country. I do, however, like the landscape of my homeland region, which would be in central western Brazil. I also appreciate heritage very much, which I do have a very deep attachment towards, and the sense of ancient continuity it provides. Unfortunatly Brazil doesn't have more than 5 centuries of written history, my home town much less (a bit more than 50 years, in fact.)
Even though slightly older than half a century, Brasília is expressive in world architecture. That strokes my ego, and fills me with pride. ;D it also gets a lot of flak and bashing because it's the capital, but that would happen if the administrative centre were anywhere else. I'm not as naive to think it wouldn't. There will always be haters.
Funnily enough I find myself adopting more radicalized views when confronted with the kind of inane ignorance one finds in southern Brazil. All the dumb sweeping generalisations and stuff.
But no, I'm not patriotic, or dance to any institution's ideological song. I'm much more loyal towards my family and friends than any region or state.
Edited to add: By extension I'm proud of where both my parents come from, which would be São Paulo, and I especially like their motto and imagery. The duco, no ducor" is their state motto, which means something like "I lead, I'm not led." A bit presumptuous but I love it. ;D Sums up their attitude very well, and I respect that. ;D
Quote from: Genericguy on July 11, 2012, 05:46:14 PM
I was, indeed, implying a sort of friendly hate. Good examples would be flight of the conchords and south park. It's mostly friendly, but it builds into real hate more often than we might think. I live by the Canadian border and our city consistently has Canadian visitors. I guess a lot of them come down here for cheap groceries in bulk quantities. I constantly hear things like; "they're so sheisty" and "Canadians are the worst drivers". I have no tollerence for these hateful generalizations. Nothing is taboo in comedy, though! ;D
That's those Ontario drivers...
They are pretty horrible. :P (j/k... mostly.)
I never mind how South Park pokes fun at Canada. Actually, as we walked around Parliament Hill on Canada Day, I had "Blame Canada" stuck in my head. I'm pretty sure I started singing it at points. :D
I like the Netherlands, but I'm not a patriot. Main problem that I have with the country that it is too crowded and too small. It is about time that we invade our neighboring countries to get some "Lebensraum" ;D. In the past we hated and disliked the Germans, nowadays the hate is gone and the dislike went to the French. We still don't trust German politicians, especially when they team-up with the "Froggies".
Quote from: OldGit on July 11, 2012, 09:35:35 AM
....
I've no huge jingoistic feelings for the UK, but I feel we're still a pretty good place to live. I like the place very much. And I seriously dislike France. ;D
The only problem with France is that it is full of Frenchmen.
Quote from: TomThe only problem with France is that it is full of Frenchmen.
This is precisely what I've always said. The actual land is OK, and it's 2½ times bigger than the UK. When we'd thrashed them in the 100 years' war, we should have made the blighters swap.
I don't get all the anti-french sentiment, what's that all about? :P
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 11, 2012, 08:03:55 PM
I don't get all the anti-french sentiment, what's that all about? :P
Just for the record, I'm half French.
I bloody hate the French!
Quote from: Tom62 on July 11, 2012, 07:16:37 PM
I like the Netherlands, but I'm not a patriot. Main problem that I have with the country that it is too crowded and too small. It is about time that we invade our neighboring countries to get some "Lebensraum" ;D. In the past we hated and disliked the Germans, nowadays the hate is gone and the dislike went to the French. We still don't trust German politicians, especially when they team-up with the "Froggies".
Quote from: OldGit on July 11, 2012, 09:35:35 AM
....
I've no huge jingoistic feelings for the UK, but I feel we're still a pretty good place to live. I like the place very much. And I seriously dislike France. ;D
The only problem with France is that it is full of Frenchmen.
After President Hollande raises taxes on the wealthy, so will London.
Oh, is En Route back?
Welcome back :)
Quote from: Stevil on July 11, 2012, 08:43:06 PM
Oh, is En Route back?
Welcome back :)
Yes,thanks. Just took time out to top up the medication .
Quote from: En_Route on July 11, 2012, 08:20:09 PM
After President Hollande raises taxes on the wealthy, so will London.
Oh great more confusion. The Netherlands used to be Holland but the people are Dutch and my country used to be New Holland and now there's a president Hollande but he's not Dutch. >:(
Quote from: Tom62 on July 11, 2012, 07:16:37 PM
I like the Netherlands, but I'm not a patriot. Main problem that I have with the country that it is too crowded and too small. It is about time that we invade our neighboring countries to get some "Lebensraum" ;D. In the past we hated and disliked the Germans, nowadays the hate is gone and the dislike went to the French. We still don't trust German politicians, especially when they team-up with the "Froggies".
Quote from: OldGit on July 11, 2012, 09:35:35 AM
....
I've no huge jingoistic feelings for the UK, but I feel we're still a pretty good place to live. I like the place very much. And I seriously dislike France. ;D
The only problem with France is that it is full of Frenchmen.
I positively adore the French, and their all-too-human foibles (a number of which I share - especially being insecure and needing to be nearly worshipped) endear them to me; further, France and the Francophone part of Belgium are my favorite travel destinations. I always get on the good side of French speakers by starting with a dramatic invocation in French about how much I adore the language and hope they will excuse any errors in French since I don't have the fortune to live in their country. (Yes, I can be sly.) In fact, an old man and woman in Brussels assumed I was Canadian since I spoke French and was too "nice" to be American. :D
Years ago I used to post on a gay French message board and was open about being American and living in New York. My signature won me a lot of friends:
Que le monde ne soit pas anglophone! (May the world not be anglophone!) I have nothing against the English language; I just love French and hate to see it lose ground. (I doubt I will ever endear myself to anglophone Canadians or Belgian Flemings--although I also adore the sound of Flemish/Dutch in an almost erotic way. Not German, though. Flemish/Dutch has a delicious quality that German does not, in my all-too-opinionated opinion. Wish I could speak Dutch too.)
Ironically, my closest friend in Paris, who is French, hates the French. ??? She wishes she were English.
As for being American... I am proud of many American people and the great things they do to help others in the world, but I am ashamed of my government and the things it does to hurt others in the world. I treasure some aspects of life in the United States and recoil from some others. Thus, I am proud to be American and ashamed to be American at the same time.
Still, I am human first and American second.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 12, 2012, 01:37:23 AM
Oh great more confusion. The Netherlands used to be Holland but the people are Dutch and my country used to be New Holland and now there's a president Hollande but he's not Dutch. >:(
Holland is a region in the western part of the Netherlands. It was a independent province, part of a union of 7 provinces (the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands), that rebelled against the Spanish occupation. By the 17th century, Holland had risen to become a maritime and economic power, dominating the other provinces of the Republic. That is the reason, why the name Holland is better known in the world than the Netherlands (the Kingdom of the Netherlands was founded in 1815). Nowadays Holland consists of the two Dutch provinces of North Holland and South Holland.
The name Dutch is very confusing. It was given to us by the English, so we will just put all the blame on them. It all has to do with the German group of languages spoken in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany
Quote from: wikipediaDuring the Renaissance in the 16th century, differentiation began to be made by opposing duytsch (modern Duits) "German" and nederduytsch "Low German" with dietsch or nederlandsch "Dutch", a distinction that is echoed in English later the same century with the terms High Dutch "German" and Low Dutch "Dutch". However, owing to Dutch commercial and colonial rivalry in the 16th and 17th centuries, the English term came to refer exclusively to the Dutch. In modern Dutch, Duits has narrowed in meaning to refer to "German", Diets went out of common use because of its Nazi associations and now somewhat romantically refers to older forms of Dutch, whereas Hollands and Vlaams are sometimes used to name the language as a whole for the varieties spoken in respectively The Netherlands and Belgium. Nederlands, the official Dutch word for "Dutch", did not become firmly established until the 19th century.
There are times when I am proud of my country, and times I just hang my head in shame. We have had the highs of science, and expanding the knowledge base of humans, yet we will tie the hands of those who are studying those advances due to religious views. We have elected those who in my view committed crimes against humanity under the cover of fighting terrorism while pushing their religion on cultures that drink a different flavor cool aid. We have bridged prejudice to one group only to target other groups to discriminate against. It looks like we take two steps forward and one back.
I identify as a Virginian first and an American second. There are at least fifty shades of American and I wish people in other parts of the world would realize this although I understand we can seem like a warmongering bully to outside observers.
Its a shame we only seem to be good at war. I for one blame the Military Channel.
I am proud to be an American, but it isn't blind love. I've often been ashamed by the things we've done or the ignorance we display. I definitely criticize the US quite a bit, but only because I care, dammit! And, as was brought up before, this country is huge and multilayered, and I don't think a lot of people realize that. I actually got a little bit defensive with a Turkish cab driver last week who talked about how he didn't like the US because it has had imperialist tendencies. And I admitted that at times we have, but not everyone in the country is like that. He seemed to accept that, as he mentioned he'd met other Americans who had said similar things.
I think the big problem with the US goes beyond mere patriotism; rather, it's the concept of "American exceptionalism", the idea that our country is somehow extra-special, can do no wrong, has a mission to spread democracy to other countries, and that to criticize it is unpatriotic. Drives me crazy. It's a horrible example of arrogance and hubris. It also causes people to assume that we can't learn anything from what other countries do. The health care debate was one of the worst examples of this: Republicans were constantly talking about how we already had the "best health care system in the world", which was utter crap, yet I think they actually believed it.
Quote from: Firebird on July 16, 2012, 03:00:05 AMI actually got a little bit defensive with a Turkish cab driver last week who talked about how he didn't like the US because it has had imperialist tendencies.
Ha ha that's funny, did you ask him if he'd heard of the Ottoman Empire? Not the foot rest specialty store, the vast empire that lasted over 600 years.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 12, 2012, 01:37:23 AM
Quote from: En_Route on July 11, 2012, 08:20:09 PM
After President Hollande raises taxes on the wealthy, so will London.
Oh great more confusion. The Netherlands used to be Holland but the people are Dutch and my country used to be New Holland and now there's a president Hollande but he's not Dutch. >:(
...And New Holland tractors. Are they Fords or not? >:(
Quote from: Asmodean on July 16, 2012, 08:23:23 AM
...And New Holland tractors. Are they Fords or not? >:(
QuoteNew Holland is an Italian full range manufacturer of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Holland_Agriculture)agricultural machinery. New Holland agricultural products include tractors, combine harvesters, balers, haying tools, equipment used in lawn, grounds and turf care, grape harvesters.
The company was founded in 1895 in New Holland, Pennsylvania; it was acquired by Ford in 1986 and by Fiat in 1991, becoming a full line producer. Since 1999, New Holland is a Brand of CNH (NYSE: CNH) and part of Fiat Industrial.
And in case you were wondering:
QuoteHollandaise is one[1] of the five sauces in the French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollandaise_sauce) haute cuisine mother sauce repertoire. It is so named because it was believed to have mimicked a Dutch sauce for the state visit to France of the King of the Netherlands.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 16, 2012, 06:52:38 AM
Quote from: Firebird on July 16, 2012, 03:00:05 AMI actually got a little bit defensive with a Turkish cab driver last week who talked about how he didn't like the US because it has had imperialist tendencies.
Ha ha that's funny, did you ask him if he'd heard of the Ottoman Empire? Not the foot rest specialty store, the vast empire that lasted over 600 years.
I decided not to go there. It was my wife translating back and forth, so she probably wouldn't have let me :)
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 16, 2012, 06:52:38 AM
Quote from: Firebird on July 16, 2012, 03:00:05 AMI actually got a little bit defensive with a Turkish cab driver last week who talked about how he didn't like the US because it has had imperialist tendencies.
Ha ha that's funny, did you ask him if he'd heard of the Ottoman Empire? Not the foot rest specialty store, the vast empire that lasted over 600 years.
Bahahahahahahahahaha
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 16, 2012, 09:04:41 AM
QuoteNew Holland is an Italian full range manufacturer of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Holland_Agriculture)agricultural machinery. New Holland agricultural products include tractors, combine harvesters, balers, haying tools, equipment used in lawn, grounds and turf care, grape harvesters.
The company was founded in 1895 in New Holland, Pennsylvania; it was acquired by Ford in 1986 and by Fiat in 1991, becoming a full line producer. Since 1999, New Holland is a Brand of CNH (NYSE: CNH) and part of Fiat Industrial.
Thanks, but my question was just the continuation of Holland theme, really. Being an ex farmhand, I know very well what New Holland is :P
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cartoonstock.com%2Fnewscartoons%2Fcartoonists%2Fcmo%2Flowres%2Fcmon37l.jpg&hash=72c1af60aea0612bbe469a4146ff5906116172f6)
^^ ;D <3
Quote from: Firebird on July 16, 2012, 03:00:05 AM
I am proud to be an American, but it isn't blind love. I've often been ashamed by the things we've done or the ignorance we display. I definitely criticize the US quite a bit, but only because I care, dammit! And, as was brought up before, this country is huge and multilayered, and I don't think a lot of people realize that. I actually got a little bit defensive with a Turkish cab driver last week who talked about how he didn't like the US because it has had imperialist tendencies. And I admitted that at times we have, but not everyone in the country is like that. He seemed to accept that, as he mentioned he'd met other Americans who had said similar things.
I think the big problem with the US goes beyond mere patriotism; rather, it's the concept of "American exceptionalism", the idea that our country is somehow extra-special, can do no wrong, has a mission to spread democracy to other countries, and that to criticize it is unpatriotic. Drives me crazy. It's a horrible example of arrogance and hubris. It also causes people to assume that we can't learn anything from what other countries do. The health care debate was one of the worst examples of this: Republicans were constantly talking about how we already had the "best health care system in the world", which was utter crap, yet I think they actually believed it.
Agreed and agreed. You said what I was trying to, only better. Bravo.
It seems that I've had this particular discussion more the last few years that I have in all of the preceeding. Especially when people find out that, like the OP, I'm neither proud nor unproud of being an American.
By the way, if you're feeling lonely and want desperately to have a conversation with someone, anyone, just drop that line out loud in a medium voice in any bar in the United States. I will guarantee that inside of 30 seconds at least one person, and probably more than one, will respond by focusing their undivided attention on you.
It isn't that I don't feel connected to my country, I doubt that I would have served in her military if I didn't. I just can't feel particularly proud about an action that I could neither cause nor prevent. Namely my birth. As my birth in the US was completely out of my control, I just don't understand how I can be proud of my citizenship.
However, I am also one who doesn't believe that the United States is the "greatest" country in the world, whatever that means. I think we do pretty well at a lot of things, but I also believe that we are in decline. There is a brilliant speech by Jeff Bridges on HBO's Newsroom show that more or less captures my feeling about our place in the world. You can see it here, if you haven't already http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIffq85zMI4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIffq85zMI4)
Quote from: Non Quixote on July 19, 2012, 11:41:54 PM
It seems that I've had this particular discussion more the last few years that I have in all of the preceeding. Especially when people find out that, like the OP, I'm neither proud nor unproud of being an American.
By the way, if you're feeling lonely and want desperately to have a conversation with someone, anyone, just drop that line out loud in a medium voice in any bar in the United States. I will guarantee that inside of 30 seconds at least one person, and probably more than one, will respond by focusing their undivided attention on you.
It isn't that I don't feel connected to my country, I doubt that I would have served in her military if I didn't. I just can't feel particularly proud about an action that I could neither cause nor prevent. Namely my birth. As my birth in the US was completely out of my control, I just don't understand how I can be proud of my citizenship.
However, I am also one who doesn't believe that the United States is the "greatest" country in the world, whatever that means. I think we do pretty well at a lot of things, but I also believe that we are in decline. There is a brilliant speech by Jeff Bridges on HBO's Newsroom show that more or less captures my feeling about our place in the world. You can see it here, if you haven't already http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIffq85zMI4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIffq85zMI4)
Nice link. I have not seen that show at all thus far because I lack HBO, though I am very curious about it having watched The West Wing all the way through (and yes, I know Sorkin was gone before it ended. I definitely noticed the change in plotting around that time).
It's also refreshing to hear this from someone who is ex-military. Forgive me for a bit of stereotyping, but I'm guessing your world-view may be atypical for a veteran. I'd be curious to know if you feel that way too.
Quote from: Firebird on July 20, 2012, 02:38:34 AM
It's also refreshing to hear this from someone who is ex-military. Forgive me for a bit of stereotyping, but I'm guessing your world-view may be atypical for a veteran. I'd be curious to know if you feel that way too.
Ditto. I'm also curious as to why you joined the military (assuming its not too personal of a question), or at least what you think the main reason people, in general, decide to join.
Quote from: Firebird on July 20, 2012, 02:38:34 AMNice link. I have not seen that show at all thus far because I lack HBO, though I am very curious about it having watched The West Wing all the way through (and yes, I know Sorkin was gone before it ended. I definitely noticed the change in plotting around that time).
It's also refreshing to hear this from someone who is ex-military. Forgive me for a bit of stereotyping, but I'm guessing your world-view may be atypical for a veteran. I'd be curious to know if you feel that way too.
To be honest I think you would be surprised at the number of vets whose opinions are not that far off my own. At least those that I served with, and those that I know personally. The fact that I served in the Navy and USAF may also be a contributor since we aren't force fed the amount of Mother God Country Corp that the jarheads and Army grunts have to choke down. Don't get me wrong, my opinions are definitely in the minority, it's just a larger minority that you may imagine. It is also a relatively quiet and low key minority.
The amount of patriotism and nationalism that is spoon fed to the Marines and Army has its purpose I'm sure. You don't charge a machine gun nest or even just enter into battle for a paycheck or a great medical plan.
And to Genericguy, I joined the military because I felt that it was something that I should do as a citizen. I'm not saying that every citizen should join but I do feel personally that everyone who is physically and mentally qualified should at least give it a serious thought. No requirement though, and the life is most certainly not for everyone.
There are myriad reasons that the vets that I know personally give for joining, from the Montgomery GI Bill to steady and ensured employment to a feeling of duty and many more. I don't know what reason the majority would give, I've heard so many.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhateandanger.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F06%2Fgeorge-carlin-i-could-never-understand-ethnic-or-national-pride-because-to-me-pride-should-be-reserved-for-something-you-achieve-or-attain-on-your-own-not-something-that-happens-by-accid.jpg%3Fw%3D630%26amp%3Bh%3D491&hash=02f57bb4f0d709fd4adb925b1bb970d573a591fd)
Ah, George Carlin. Blunt, offensive, critical and funny all at once. :P
Seriously though, I'm not particularly patriotic in that I don't have too much specific national pride per se, but at the same time, I'm glad enough to live where I do. I happen to think Canada's a pretty decent place to live, despite the current lack of jobs in my area. But really, I mostly appreciate the fact that I live in a civilized country that prizes free speech and personal freedom, as well as human rights. I talk to several people across the world regularly, and I've heard so many stories about how some of them either live in fear of their government, or are horribly frustrated with the way they're treated solely on the basis of their gender, ethnic background, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I suspect I could quite happily live in just about any country that had a similar amount of human rights (as compared to my own country), but some days I can't even comprehend having to live like some of my clients do.
We are products of our environment after all, and to some degree we have influence over our own society (e.g. vote)
If we were brought up in either Egypt, NZ, USA, IRAQ, INDIA or CHINA, we would be bound to be different from who we would have been had we been born elsewhere.
I am certainly influenced by my society and saying that I am a proud Kiwi is recognition and acceptance of some of the influences that make up who I am.
When I see some of the crazy religion based laws/rules of USA or IRAQ or Saudi Arabia, I feel proud to be a Kiwi.
When I see us influence the commonwealth to allow royal concession to be gender indiscriminate, I feel proud to be a Kiwi.
I wouldn't say NZ is the greatest country in the world, but I am proud to live here, I enjoy the freedoms this country provides, I love the culture, I love the nature side of it. I am proud that we stood up to USA and told them that their Nukes and Nuke powered ships are prohibited from our waters.
Although I am ashamed of how we bowed down to the French when they blew up the Rainbow Warrior (killing a person) and put economic pressure on us to place their agents into a prison that they could break them out of.
Proud to be a.... Brit.
Now that's not something I would normally say. I know there're lots of things I ought to be proud of like 'free' healthcare, a tolerant and diverse culture, an accountable press etc... but, Meh, I'm bored with being thankful for those.
So why the post? The Tour de France is why. No previous British winners was the precedent and this year a British 1-2. Superb sportsmanship, humility in victory, drug-free and supreme talent. Yes I am proud. The legacy for the kids of the UK is incalculable. A true and worthy inspiration.
Well done Team Sky, Wiggo, Froome and Cav.
I would have felt like that after Agincourt. Great credit to Bradley Wiggins, but he didn't rid the world of a single Frenchman.
Quote from: OldGit on July 23, 2012, 01:12:17 PM
I would have felt like that after Agincourt. Great credit to Bradley Wiggins, but he didn't rid the world of a single Frenchman.
No, but he severely bruised a few egos!! ;D
That's true. ;D
Quote from: Tank on July 23, 2012, 01:13:08 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 23, 2012, 01:12:17 PM
I would have felt like that after Agincourt. Great credit to Bradley Wiggins, but he didn't rid the world of a single Frenchman.
No, but he severely bruised a few egos!! ;D
Yeah, you can take comfort, Git, from the fact that there are more French left alive to contemplate their own demise.
And possibly even more galling (pun intended) that Wiggo is an accomplished Francophone and conducts all his local interviews in the native tongue. Did you hear him when asked about his meeting with French President Francois Hollande by a French interviewer last week (not when he won) he said (in French) with a smirk "Oh I thought that was the fella from Big brother".
^ :LOL: