I can't remember our ever discussing this one before, but it's been cropping up a lot lately on the web and seems nice and juicy. My position is that while I find the bogey man of male predators in women's restrooms scary, I can't see how prohibiting transwomen from using women's restrooms will affect that in any way. These seem to me separate issues.
Anyone doing harassing or abusive things in a public restroom is breaking the law no matter what rationale they used to gain access: they're transwomen, they're cross-dressed males, they're bio-women or they're undisguised men just barging in. Gender, however it's come by, does not give a pass to illegal actions. And male predators are out there breaking the law already, it's not like they're sitting around passively waiting for transgender restroom rights to improve. So making a fuss over transwomen (and that's were all the focus seems to be) isn't making public restrooms safer, it's just harassing transwomen.
Also, most transpeople tend to dress and look like the gender they identify with. I can't see people like Laverne Cox or Buck Angel being able to use the "biologically correct" restroom without a great deal more havoc and trouble than if they just used the restroom suitable to their transgender. As for the idea I've heard some put forward, of making separate trans restrooms available -- way to paint a target on someones back while wasting money and causing inconvenience to building owners at the same time. Again, it seems more like a desire to punish people for not following fundamentalist social rules than a desire to protect women.
The third most common objection is "but women and girls will see penises!" I've been using public restrooms for some 60 yrs, all while living in large, metropolitan cities, and I'm sure I've shared one many times with transwomen and probably also some male cross-dressers. Never, ever have I seen anyone's genitals, male or female. I'll go so far as to say that if you do see someone else's genitals in a women's public restroom it was probably because you were trying really hard to do that, so who's the pervert here?
Here's a blog post from Love, Joy and Feminism that gets into it much better: Conservative Rhetoric and Transgender Bathroom Battles (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2016/03/conservative-rhetoric-and-transgender-bathroom-battles.html)
I find it's okay for adults as long as the Transgendered community is allowed to give their opinion about it. Doing it to children, however, could pose a problem for the children. Kids are bullied enough as it is, I don't think it needs to be added to.
-Nam
I'm all for doing away with gendered bathrooms entirely.
I'm also fine for getting rid of gendered bathrooms. The social protocol would be about the same.
No I will keep the gender definition toilets. I don't like queuing. Women (and coke heads) take up cubicles which means there are less places to piss if the urinal is busy which slows down the flow and rather than having to wait a few seconds a line starts to form. The three non gender toilets I can think of all have horrible waiting problems due to this.
I found out while working at Walt Disney World off and on for 10 years: men use public restrooms more often than women do. However, when women do use public restrooms they are actually dirtier than men are.
Just something I thought about after reading comments on this topic.
-Nam
So women should have to wait in even longer lines so that men don't have to wait at all?
Nice.
Quote from: Nam on March 05, 2016, 12:58:51 AM
I found out while working at Walt Disney World off and on for 10 years: men use public restrooms more often than women do. However, when women do use public restrooms they are actually dirtier than men are.
Just something I thought about after reading comments on this topic.
-Nam
My experience was somewhat different. At my work, before I retired, a men's single user rest room was nearer the office than the women's restroom, so I often used the men's. The cleanliness levels were the same, but the men's smelled a good deal worse. Better magazines, tho.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on March 05, 2016, 01:39:16 AM
So women should have to wait in even longer lines so that men don't have to wait at all?
Nice.
Yes, plus we can't have you filthy women/crack head types dirtying up the restrooms, sheesh!
Quote from: Pasta Chick on March 05, 2016, 01:39:16 AM
So women should have to wait in even longer lines so that men don't have to wait at all?
Nice.
Yup.
Plus the actual architectural problem of forcing non-binary toilets everywhere would be a pain in the ass for everyone that has to work on one where there are already many silly laws. 99% of the time the places that have unisex toilets have them because it is easier and cheaper to just make one big toilet unit. Mens toilets you can often just slap in a small space, place a single cubicle and a few urinal bowls or trough and its done. For the same amount of space you could fit two cubical, very few business units have enough space to provide one large area, thus why you often find the mens and the womens toilets not just separated but in totally different areas. Just isn't practical.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 05, 2016, 03:14:08 AM
a men's single user rest room was nearer the office than the women's restroom, so I often used the men's. The cleanliness levels were the same, but the men's smelled a good deal worse.
That by itself should be enough to make you want to keep separate facilities. I think men are more likely to engage in the "office dump", so you are better off keeping dudes to themselves. I would assume that a transgender dump is just as stinky as the regular kind.
I believe in equal preferred squared measurement for each genders restrooms.
You don't want to make men wait anyway, they'll do it in the sink, or anywhere.
Why aren't more woman making use of these things anyway?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Filcaustralia.org.au%2Fattachments%2Fproducts%2Fproduct_page_large%2F1925-PR05175-urinal.jpg&hash=3729e899174b4c6df5a3168b55d7d9c601b8bd71)
Quote from: Bad Penny on March 05, 2016, 01:25:17 PM
I believe in equal preferred squared measurement for each genders restrooms.
You don't want to make men wait anyway, they'll do it in the sink, or anywhere.
Why aren't more woman making use of these things anyway?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Filcaustralia.org.au%2Fattachments%2Fproducts%2Fproduct_page_large%2F1925-PR05175-urinal.jpg&hash=3729e899174b4c6df5a3168b55d7d9c601b8bd71)
True. I'm a smoker. Live in the middle of nowhere, and I smoke outside. But I'm not going to stop smoking just to use the bathroom inside. That's what trees are for. To piss on.
-Nam
Quote from: Bad Penny on March 05, 2016, 01:25:17 PM
I believe in equal preferred squared measurement for each genders restrooms.
You don't want to make men wait anyway, they'll do it in the sink, or anywhere.
Why aren't more woman making use of these things anyway?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Filcaustralia.org.au%2Fattachments%2Fproducts%2Fproduct_page_large%2F1925-PR05175-urinal.jpg&hash=3729e899174b4c6df5a3168b55d7d9c601b8bd71)
:query: I think I've figured out what that is used for. I think it's a great idea to get one of those if you're out in the woods, you desperately need to go and you have a disposible bottle to spare. If you have access to regular bathroom however then why use it?
I think it was Freud who spoke of women having penis envy. I don't think he really knew what he was talking about.
Quote from: Bad Penny on March 05, 2016, 01:25:17 PM
I believe in equal preferred squared measurement for each genders restrooms.
You don't want to make men wait anyway, they'll do it in the sink, or anywhere.
Why aren't more woman making use of these things anyway?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Filcaustralia.org.au%2Fattachments%2Fproducts%2Fproduct_page_large%2F1925-PR05175-urinal.jpg&hash=3729e899174b4c6df5a3168b55d7d9c601b8bd71)
TBH, I don't even
want to stand up to go. Why would I want to give up privacy and checking my phone? (Yes, I get on my phone, while peeing. LOL.
My attention span is that small... No... Really, it came about from being the best opportunity to check my phone at work, and it has become a habit for me no matter when or where I'm going >.<)
It'd be a pain to use in the woods. You have to carry it with you, plus TP, plus something to clean it. Or not clean it. Which... Ew.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on March 06, 2016, 05:30:48 PMOr not clean it.
That shouldn't even be an option. :smileshake:
Oh yeah, that thing would be so unsanitary, altogether! :bleh: Anyway, why are we discussing this and not the topic at hand? Lol.
I love Libby Anne's article (the one linked to in the original post) and her blog, her blog is great, too. I read the article not too long after she posted it. She really nails it when she goes onto saying that the people who are opposing transgender peoples' bathroom rights generally don't actually care in the least bit about the safety of women and children.
Quote from: Harmonie on March 06, 2016, 06:01:20 PM
She really nails it when she goes onto saying that the people who are opposing transgender peoples' bathroom rights generally don't actually care in the least bit about the safety of women and children.
Very much this. It's the same as the conservatives who add ridiculous restrictions to abortion clinics under the guide of "increasing women's safety" instead of the actual purpose, which is forcing them to close.
Quote from: Harmonie on March 06, 2016, 02:38:34 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny on March 05, 2016, 01:25:17 PM
I believe in equal preferred squared measurement for each genders restrooms.
You don't want to make men wait anyway, they'll do it in the sink, or anywhere.
Why aren't more woman making use of these things anyway?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Filcaustralia.org.au%2Fattachments%2Fproducts%2Fproduct_page_large%2F1925-PR05175-urinal.jpg&hash=3729e899174b4c6df5a3168b55d7d9c601b8bd71)
TBH, I don't even want to stand up to go. Why would I want to give up privacy and checking my phone? (Yes, I get on my phone, while peeing. LOL. My attention span is that small... No... Really, it came about from being the best opportunity to check my phone at work, and it has become a habit for me no matter when or where I'm going >.<)
There's nothing great about using urinal except that it's quick. You don't want to spend any more time in a men's bathroom than you have to, anyway. Now peeing off the back porch at night, that's a special experience.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 07, 2016, 12:38:43 AM
Quote from: Harmonie on March 06, 2016, 02:38:34 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny on March 05, 2016, 01:25:17 PM
I believe in equal preferred squared measurement for each genders restrooms.
You don't want to make men wait anyway, they'll do it in the sink, or anywhere.
Why aren't more woman making use of these things anyway?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Filcaustralia.org.au%2Fattachments%2Fproducts%2Fproduct_page_large%2F1925-PR05175-urinal.jpg&hash=3729e899174b4c6df5a3168b55d7d9c601b8bd71)
TBH, I don't even want to stand up to go. Why would I want to give up privacy and checking my phone? (Yes, I get on my phone, while peeing. LOL. My attention span is that small... No... Really, it came about from being the best opportunity to check my phone at work, and it has become a habit for me no matter when or where I'm going >.<)
There's nothing great about using urinal except that it's quick. You don't want to spend any more time in a men's bathroom than you have to, anyway. Now peeing off the back porch at night, that's a special experience.
Not for the cat you pissed on!
Just found this, and I think I'm in love:
:thumbsup: Entertaining rant.
The hateful dingbats at AFA aren't just organizing a boycott, though. They're sending brave Christian men to use the women's facilities at Target stores to "test" Target's policies. "Conservative Group 'Testing' Target By Sending Men To Women's Bathrooms" | TPM LiveWire (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/american-family-association-testing-target-bathrooms)
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 04, 2016, 10:21:19 PM
Just found this, and I think I'm in love:
:lol:
There's only three videos on his channel, and I've watched them all and subscribed already.
Quote from: Recusant on May 04, 2016, 10:57:10 PM
:thumbsup: Entertaining rant.
The hateful dingbats at AFA aren't just organizing a boycott, though. They're sending brave Christian men to use the women's facilities at Target stores to "test" Target's policies. "Conservative Group 'Testing' Target By Sending Men To Women's Bathrooms" | TPM LiveWire (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/american-family-association-testing-target-bathrooms)
Yeah, I've seen that as well and, considering they're most likely also Republicans, they will authentically be the most predatory people in the restroom.
Quote from: Firebird on May 04, 2016, 11:09:37 PM
There's only three videos on his channel, and I've watched them all and subscribed already.
:smilenod: Me too.
I'm glad that the video has subtitles ;D.
I posted him a couple of weeks ago in the youtube thread, therefore he's all mine ;)
Quote from: Claireliontamer on April 27, 2016, 09:10:21 PM
This guy maybe my new favourite youtuber.
He is fabulous and it helps that he has the sexiest accent out there :)
Quote from: Tom62 on May 05, 2016, 07:13:43 AM
I'm glad that the video has subtitles ;D.
Silly foreigner!
Quote from: Claireliontamer on May 05, 2016, 07:21:34 AM
I posted him a couple of weeks ago in the youtube thread, therefore he's all mine ;)
Damn. I snoozed and I losed.
He sounds super camp. I need to hear more rednecks to see if they all sound so camp.
I kinda want to end all rants with "And fuck Nancy Grace too" from now on.
http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/meet-the-liberal-redneck-trae-crowder-679646275769 (http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/meet-the-liberal-redneck-trae-crowder-679646275769)
an interview with him :)
Why are so many people suddenly interested in bodily functions and whose facilities are to be used? I suggest that the French have more sensibly addressed the situation. There are community rest rooms right next door in Quebec that seem to work well enough. Not surprisingly there are almost no AFA members or up tight republicans in Quebec
Quote from: Claireliontamer on May 05, 2016, 05:33:50 PM
http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/meet-the-liberal-redneck-trae-crowder-679646275769 (http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/meet-the-liberal-redneck-trae-crowder-679646275769)
an interview with him :)
I do so love him -- and he used the word "succinct" in a sentence!
swoonQuote from: Icarus on May 19, 2016, 05:50:21 AM
Why are so many people suddenly interested in bodily functions and whose facilities are to be used?
This is what I keep wondering. Where do these AFA types think transwomen (and for that matter transvestite men) have been going to pee all this time? Not to the men's room, that's for sure. So why is this suddenly a big deal?
And then there's this: short-haired straight woman harassed as trans in Wal-Mart restroom (http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Woman-mistaken-for-transgender-harassed-in-7471666.php). She posted on FB about it later -- it seems her hair was short because she'd recently donated it to a group that makes wigs for children with cancer. Somehow, I think the idiot who berated her will not feel ashamed of herself if she ever reads that post. As much as that type flogs shame at the rest of us, they rarely feel it themselves.
I've been shocked at the number of women I know who have recently said they get called out for being in the women's bathroom all the time. Not trans- women or women who present as androgynous or "butch" either, but women who clearly have breasts and wear make up and are carrying a purse and so forth. It's like people are looking for people to pick on. Exactly how fucking feminine are we supposed to be? Because I don't even pass by some of these standards.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 05, 2016, 12:21:23 AM
Quote from: Recusant on May 04, 2016, 10:57:10 PM
:thumbsup: Entertaining rant.
The hateful dingbats at AFA aren't just organizing a boycott, though. They're sending brave Christian men to use the women's facilities at Target stores to "test" Target's policies. "Conservative Group 'Testing' Target By Sending Men To Women's Bathrooms" | TPM LiveWire (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/american-family-association-testing-target-bathrooms)
Yeah, I've seen that as well and, considering they're most likely also Republicans, they will authentically be the most predatory people in the restroom.
Indeed, but that seems to be their entire selling point. Remember when Mike Huckabee, back when he was running for the Republican presidential candidate nominee made a 'joke' to a crowd that if he was a teenager in today's age he'd totally claim that he's transgender and invade women's spaces, like locker rooms?
Yup, the crowd that claims to care sooo much about the safety of women and children found this old pervert's claim that he would take advantage of it funny.
They want so bad to prove that there are predators out there who will take advantage of this... by doing it themselves.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on May 05, 2016, 03:28:12 PM
I kinda want to end all rants with "And fuck Nancy Grace too" from now on.
I agree wholeheartedly with this comment PC. (And if you don't I think I may make it part of my signature) ;D