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that morality thing

Started by billy rubin, October 21, 2019, 11:41:33 PM

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No one

Morality is what I say is right.
Immorality is what I say is wrong!

Bad Penny II

#16
Quote from: No one on October 24, 2019, 10:47:53 PM
Morality is what I say is right.
Immorality is what I say is wrong!


I don't disagree.
And obscenity is him saying something is immoral because god says so and he knows what god says and you don't, or won't.
Shouldn't there be comma in there?
Na, RANT! mode.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

billy rubin



more people have been to berlin than i have

jumbojak

Force motivated by opinion.

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

Dark Lightning

Quote from: Tank on October 22, 2019, 05:13:07 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on October 22, 2019, 02:50:33 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 22, 2019, 03:50:40 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on October 22, 2019, 02:08:23 AM
as an aside, why do people here put pictures of spoons under their posts?

http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=14281.0

:grin:

Bad Penny makes them for us when we reach 1000 posts. But he has to be asked nicely.  ;D

one discovery generates the next mystery:

why tableware?

:thoughtful:

Ah! You find that our when you get one.

Don't I rate at least a toothpick, by now?  :???:

Bad Penny II

Quote from: Dark Lightning on October 25, 2019, 02:56:17 AM

Don't I rate at least a toothpick, by now?  :???:

Let me see.....

You qualify for the junior spoon, they're good for feeding unwilling young HAFians their gruel.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Recusant

It is so good to have a new example of the silversmith's art!

Even if it appears more a display of digital whittling than silversmithing.  ;)
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


xSilverPhinx

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Bad Penny II on October 25, 2019, 06:40:51 AM
You qualify for the junior spoon, they're good for feeding unwilling young HAFians their gruel.


That's pretty clever!  ;D  Would need a helping hand if it's going to fly, though. ;)
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Davin

Morality is something that concerns trying to cause less harm and increase benefits.

Harm and benefit can in most cases be objectively measured and expressed. This doesn't make morality in total objective morality, but there are solid foundations that rational people will not argue about. The subjective stuff comes mostly from deciding what actions and contexts result in the least harm and/or most benefit. When discussing morality, it doesn't make sense to try to reduce it to only subjective or only objective.

And then we have social contracts, which basically boil down to "treat others as you want to be treated." If you don't want to be murdered in your sleep, then you must agree that murdering people is wrong and at the same time agree to not murder other people. If you want to have private property, then you have to agree to not stealing things that belong to other people. It gets a little more complicated, because not everyone has the same values, but it doesn't have to be complicated at all in most cases.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Siz

Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
Morality is something that concerns trying to cause less harm and increase benefits.
A bit like politics, then?! How's that working out for you?

Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
Harm and benefit can in most cases be objectively measured and expressed. This doesn't make morality in total objective morality, but there are solid foundations that rational people will not argue about.
What are the solid foundations of morality?

Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
The subjective stuff comes mostly from deciding what actions and contexts result in the least harm and/or most benefit. When discussing morality, it doesn't make sense to try to reduce it to only subjective or only objective.
No, of course it doesn't make sense. Not much point in hanging arguments off objective morality if we can't rationalise it's existence. It is, therefore, by necessity that morality be reduced to the subjective.



When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

billy rubin

what about non-social codes of behavior? is it possible to behave immorally all alone on a desert island?

are there such things as non-social codes of behavior in the first place, let alone incorrect ones?


more people have been to berlin than i have

Davin

Quote from: Siz on October 28, 2019, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
Morality is something that concerns trying to cause less harm and increase benefits.
A bit like politics, then?! How's that working out for you?
Not much like politics at all. For me? Great.

Quote from: Siz
Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
Harm and benefit can in most cases be objectively measured and expressed. This doesn't make morality in total objective morality, but there are solid foundations that rational people will not argue about.
What are the solid foundations of morality?
The answer to this question lies in what I've already said and what you've quoted here.

Quote from: Siz
Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
The subjective stuff comes mostly from deciding what actions and contexts result in the least harm and/or most benefit. When discussing morality, it doesn't make sense to try to reduce it to only subjective or only objective.
No, of course it doesn't make sense. Not much point in hanging arguments off objective morality if we can't rationalise it's existence. It is, therefore, by necessity that morality be reduced to the subjective.
"Reducing" morality to only the subjective is equally irrational.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Davin

Quote from: billy rubin on October 28, 2019, 06:26:04 PM
what about non-social codes of behavior? is it possible to behave immorally all alone on a desert island?

are there such things as non-social codes of behavior in the first place, let alone incorrect ones?
Codes of behavior is not the same thing as morality. Codes of behavior can harm people even with the best intentions, which means I would consider those that harm to be immoral.

On a desert island, if there is nothing to harm, I don't see why anyone would try to bring morality into it in the first place.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Siz

Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 08:28:08 PM
Quote from: Siz on October 28, 2019, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
Morality is something that concerns trying to cause less harm and increase benefits.
A bit like politics, then?! How's that working out for you?
Not much like politics at all. For me? Great.
Politics also 'concerns trying to cause less harm and increase benefits'. As does 'kindness', and 'fairness' and a number of other concepts. This description of morality falls short of distinctiveness - it doesn't help me understand what qualities morality has that set it apart from personal politics.

Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
Quote from: Siz on October 28, 2019, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
Harm and benefit can in most cases be objectively measured and expressed. This doesn't make morality in total objective morality, but there are solid foundations that rational people will not argue about.
What are the solid foundations of morality?
The answer to this question lies in what I've already said and what you've quoted here.
Please clarify for me. I can't identify anything in your responses that solidly found much at all.

Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
Quote from: Siz
Quote from: Davin on October 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM
The subjective stuff comes mostly from deciding what actions and contexts result in the least harm and/or most benefit. When discussing morality, it doesn't make sense to try to reduce it to only subjective or only objective.
No, of course it doesn't make sense. Not much point in hanging arguments off objective morality if we can't rationalise it's existence. It is, therefore, by necessity that morality be reduced to the subjective.
"Reducing" morality to only the subjective is equally irrational.
I have provided the rationale for my argument. If you want to bring an objective element of morality to the table, I reasonably ask that you explain its provenance.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!