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Spirituality:

Started by Rift Zone, April 28, 2019, 12:55:09 AM

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Magdalena

That's good advice, Davin. I hope Rift Zone is able to see it as constructive criticism.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Davin on April 29, 2019, 03:29:46 PM

I didn't like it and I am sorry that I read the whole thing because it was a huge waste of time.

You're a better man than I am.  I starting reading it, and it sounded a bit like "A God That Could Be Real" but I can't say for certain because I wasn't able to finish either one.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Davin on April 29, 2019, 03:29:46 PM
It's difficult to address the general idea of this post because it's very unclear what that point is.

In the first paragraph it says "This perspective is contrary to what humanity has been teaching for millennia." But that's the first sentence and we don't know what the perspective is that it's referencing because the perspective is never described. I suppose we're supposed to just follow along without any references lost and grabbing on to the author to help guide us through this mess... but that's not how a lot of people work. I for one do not like that kind of manipulative rhetoric device. And if we follow the first paragraph, it seems that there is some scolding about not focusing on parts, which given the first sentence seems to imply the kind of perspective taught for "millennia." But then there are two examples of top down and bottom up from the last century. So now we're lost on what this perspective is that runs counter to things taught in a thousand years, but somehow follows things taught in the last 100 years. It's a mess. Even if we try to follow the author lost in vague notions and contrary statements, the author provides nothing stable to hold onto.

If the point of this long thing is what it seems, that the author wants the reader to be lost, to hold onto an apparently confused and rambling author as an authority to guide us through the mess but never actually providing anything of substance... then good job I guess. Reading through the rest of it seems to imply, that we need to look at the "big picture" but I can't be sure since that has been taught a lot in the last thousand years, and the rambling contradicts itself in many other ways. But the "big picture" thing seems to be the most common idea presented. Then things change, and then change again.

You've got to focus better. By the end of reading your first paragraph, we the readers should know what topic or topics you're going to talk about in the rest of it. The rest of it should be arguments and evidence that supports what you're saying that shows us why you're saying it. Then the last paragraph should tie everything together and we should know why you came to the conclusions you did. And you really have to cut out the rambling, just get to the fucking point. There is some value in style and prose, but when most of what you're saying is style and prose and you provide almost nothing in terms of argument and evidence, you're clearly over a line.

I didn't like it and I am sorry that I read the whole thing because it was a huge waste of time.

Thanks for saving me the time.  ;D
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Tank on April 29, 2019, 06:54:32 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 29, 2019, 06:47:33 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on April 29, 2019, 06:32:15 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 29, 2019, 03:29:46 PM

I didn't like it and I am sorry that I read the whole thing because it was a huge waste of time.

That's what these super-long posts usually turn out to be.

8,278 words. If it had a coherent theme then we might be able to discuss something with Rift Zone. But over eight thousand rambling words with unsupported claims and no binding concepts leaves us with nothing to work with.

And he originally posted it in the Science forum. And then got snotty when I moved it to Philosophy.

Yes, you did right. I just scanned the wall of text with my eyes but it doesn't look very scientific to me, just a bunch of subjective assertions and interpretations with no actual evidence.

If it was science we would expect to see:

- at least one hypothesis
- review of previous scientific literature supporting a hypothesis
- evidence supporting a hypothesis
- discussion of the evidence
- conclusion

Even "soft" sciences need a certain rigour to be taken seriously.  ::)

Sorry Rift Zone, but if your text were to go through peer review (which is also important in the scientific process) it would probably get a similar reaction to Davin's...if not worse. 

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Recusant

I think it has potential. A fair percentage of the people who answer "none" when asked to name their religion are in the "spiritual but not religious" camp. Rift Zone's Way of the Cosmos may gain some followers from among them if properly presented. He needs a good editor, but I question whether he'd admit that and subject his project to the untender mercies of an editor.

Most of the piece was (while not scientific) free from overt woo though it danced on the edge, and stepped over at least once. For example I think that "monks impacting the shape of crystals" may be referring to the pseudoscience of Masaru Emoto. In my opinion, that line of thinking should be dispensed with in order to have a chance of convincing skeptics. On the other hand such dubious evidence is exactly what might prove attractive to the "spiritual but not religious" folks.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Rift Zone

#20
Quote from: Recusant on April 30, 2019, 05:49:25 PM
I think it has potential. A fair percentage of the people who answer "none" when asked to name their religion are in the "spiritual but not religious" camp. Rift Zone's Way of the Cosmos may gain some followers from among them if properly presented. He needs a good editor, but I question whether he'd admit that and subject his project to the untender mercies of an editor.

Most of the piece was (while not scientific) free from overt woo though it danced on the edge, and stepped over at least once. For example I think that "monks impacting the shape of crystals" may be referring to the pseudoscience of Masaru Emoto. In my opinion, that line of thinking should be dispensed with in order to have a chance of convincing skeptics. On the other hand such dubious evidence is exactly what might prove attractive to the "spiritual but not religious" folks.

No question i need a good editor.   Dealing with humans is not exactly my forte.  Understand them? -sure.  But relate to them? -Meh, not so much.   Our psychologies tend to be very different.   Someone wants an abstract?   -it amounts to, irrespective of what we call it, "spirituality" is a real thing.   Leave the term "spirituality" alone, and we still have a very real facet of human psychology that originates in subconscious for the express purpose of directing consciousness to gather information our about our place in the universe so then that understanding can be utilized as basis of our identity, morality, way of being...    Science is gaining and culminating observations into a sensical model that explains the system!   Now we can certainly argue over how well established the science surrounding this is, because it is admittedly lacking.   However, if more of the pieces were in place, the true nature of spirituality wouldn't be such a shock to your systems, now would it?    The facts remain: that understanding was gained purely from observed (and legitimate) traits and behaviors of humanity (psst, that's science!), and I sincerely doubt any of you sincerely doubt these traits exist within humanity.   Where the fuck do you guys think religion gets its power from?   All the shit it pulls?   All the antics of the devout?    Where do you think that comes from?   I answered why this fucked up world is mostly religious, as well as why its fucked up, and how to fix it... and all you guys can do about it is give me shit?   Smh.   Not suprising, I suppose...  not like you recognized physics when you saw it either.
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

Rift Zone

#21
Quote from: Tank on April 29, 2019, 06:54:32 PM
And he originally posted it in the Science forum. And then got snotty when I moved it to Philosophy.
wanna talk about snotty?    Exactly how much of that did you read before you moved it?   I'm fairly certain you moved cuz you didnt like the sound of the thread title, and gave it no chance at all..   -Rather childish of you!    You see, science is when people pull shit straight out of observation alone.   Philosophy is when people pull shit straight out if their ass, cuz it sounds good them, cuz they think so; just like you moving the thread, cuz it sounded good to you, cuz you thought so.  Oh the irony.   The document remains science, irrespective of if you can recognize it or not.   

I petition admin to support their decision involving moving this document into philosophy, or to move it back to science where it belongs!
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

Tank

Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 05:27:27 AM
Quote from: Tank on April 29, 2019, 06:54:32 PM
And he originally posted it in the Science forum. And then got snotty when I moved it to Philosophy.
wanna talk about snotty?    Exactly how much of that did you read before you moved it?   I'm fairly certain you moved cuz you didnt like the sound of the thread title, and gave it no chance at all..   -Rather childish of you!    You see, science is when people pull shit straight out of observation alone.   Philosophy is when people pull shit straight out if their ass, cuz it sounds good them, cuz they think so; just like you moving the thread, cuz it sounded good to you, cuz you thought so.  Oh the irony.   The document remains science, irrespective of if you can recognize it or not.   

I petition admin to support their decision involving moving this document into philosophy, or to move it back to science where it belongs!

Petition noted. Petition rejected.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Rift Zone

Quote from: Tank on May 01, 2019, 06:02:33 AM

Petition noted. Petition rejected.
Out of pure arbitrary determination, I imagine?  -no justification for the move except it sounds good to you, cuz you think so?   

As long as we both know what you are.
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

Tank

Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 06:07:13 AM
Quote from: Tank on May 01, 2019, 06:02:33 AM

Petition noted. Petition rejected.
Out of pure arbitrary determination, I imagine?  -no justification for the move except it sounds good to you, cuz you think so?   

As long as we both know what you are.

I thought you'd left?

QuoteGiving you guys the benefit of the doubt was apparently too much benefit.  Fare well.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 30, 2019, 02:15:52 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 29, 2019, 06:54:32 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 29, 2019, 06:47:33 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on April 29, 2019, 06:32:15 PM
Quote from: Davin on April 29, 2019, 03:29:46 PM

I didn't like it and I am sorry that I read the whole thing because it was a huge waste of time.

That's what these super-long posts usually turn out to be.

8,278 words. If it had a coherent theme then we might be able to discuss something with Rift Zone. But over eight thousand rambling words with unsupported claims and no binding concepts leaves us with nothing to work with.

And he originally posted it in the Science forum. And then got snotty when I moved it to Philosophy.

Yes, you did right. I just scanned the wall of text with my eyes but it doesn't look very scientific to me, just a bunch of subjective assertions and interpretations with no actual evidence.

If it was science we would expect to see:

- at least one hypothesis
- review of previous scientific literature supporting a hypothesis
- evidence supporting a hypothesis
- discussion of the evidence
- conclusion

Even "soft" sciences need a certain rigour to be taken seriously.  ::)

Sorry Rift Zone, but if your text were to go through peer review (which is also important in the scientific process) it would probably get a similar reaction to Davin's...if not worse.

Thank you for pointing out the singular lack of 'science' in the post.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Rift Zone

Quote from: Tank on May 01, 2019, 07:48:19 AM
Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 06:07:13 AM
Quote from: Tank on May 01, 2019, 06:02:33 AM

Petition noted. Petition rejected.
Out of pure arbitrary determination, I imagine?  -no justification for the move except it sounds good to you, cuz you think so?   

As long as we both know what you are.

I thought you'd left?

QuoteGiving you guys the benefit of the doubt was apparently too much benefit.  Fare well.

You're in the wrong and you know it.   And that's the best you can do for yourself?   🤦🏻‍♂️
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

Rift Zone

- at least one hypothesis
Like all the psychological traits mentioned?   From subconsciousness, mingle with world, back to subconsciousness, kind of stuff?   

- review of previous scientific literature supporting a hypothesis
"Interpreter module of the brain"  -Michael Gazzaniga   There's more in there.

- evidence supporting a hypothesis
You'd have to actually read it,  it if you did, you'd find it was very well supported.

- discussion of the evidence
Ample amount of that in there.   

-conclusion
Spirituality is a fundamental human trait that seeves to provide existence with context, meaning, and direction.    ...and its being used against humanity to fuck off our species and world.

if you guys were actually interested in science rather than being the willfully cognitive dissidents you are, you would see this actually has something worth listening to.   You are exactly the types who would have burned Giordano Bruno at the stake, and Galileo too, if he wasn't friends with church admin.  -you guys know that, right?
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

xSilverPhinx

 :fingertap: So...if it's science what's your methodology for obtaining these 'observations'?

What controls are in place to control for your own observational biases? This is important.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 08:06:10 AM
- at least one hypothesis
Like all the psychological traits mentioned?   From subconsciousness, mingle with world, back to subconsciousness, kind of stuff?   

- review of previous scientific literature supporting a hypothesis
"Interpreter module of the brain"  -Michael Gazzaniga   There's more in there.

- evidence supporting a hypothesis
You'd have to actually read it,  it if you did, you'd find it was very well supported.

- discussion of the evidence
Ample amount of that in there.   

-conclusion
Spirituality is a fundamental human trait that seeves to provide existence with context, meaning, and direction.    ...and its being used against humanity to fuck off our species and world.

if you guys were actually interested in science rather than being the willfully cognitive dissidents you are, you would see this actually has something worth listening to.   You are exactly the types who would have burned Giordano Bruno at the stake, and Galileo too, if he wasn't friends with church admin.  -you guys know that, right?

...that's not a hypothesis. What is the question you want to answer and what experimental design do you have in place to answer it?

Oh my god, you're gonna make me read the entire thing, aren't you? :picard facepalm:
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey