July 4th shootings. (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/05/us/chicago-shootings-july-4-weekend/index.html)
The link mentions Chicago but the article mentions other places in the country. It's like people decided that shooting was fun or something. No rationale was given but there were quite a few kids hit, one of them fatally in the head.
QuoteShootings across US
In the nation's capital, 11-year-old Davon McNeal was killed Saturday night after a group of five young men began shooting in the southeast part of the city, Mayor Muriel Bowser and the Metropolitan Police Department said.
Davon was taken to a hospital and pronounced dead. The shooting occurred around 9:30 p.m., MPD Chief Peter Newsham said.
Davon was shot in the head moments after he and his mother stopped in a neighborhood to visit, the boy's grandfather told CNN.
The youngster jumped out of the car to run into his aunt's house to grab a phone charger, said grandfather John Ayala, who founded the DC chapter of the Guardian Angels and has been fighting gun violence for many years.
His mother, sitting in the car, heard gunshots and saw her son duck. She thought he was trying to dodge the bullets, Ayala said, but then noticed he wasn't moving and found he'd been shot in the head.
randy, the world is heading towards heat death.
thats all there is to cosmology, philosophy, morality, and everything else.
entropy.
The shooters all had their reasons. It's nothing new in the US, and no significant change on the horizon. If the "gun-grabbing" Democratic Party gets both houses of the US Congress and the presidency in the next election perhaps a law or two may get passed, or existing laws revised. They'd be immediately challenged in the courts, and with the influx of Trumpist judges in the federal courts (not to mention the US Supreme Court, which has already ruled against "restrictive" gun laws) chances are good that they'd be struck down. God bless America. :eagletear:
yep
thats who we are.
lots of weapons, not much sense.
much like the scythians, maybe.
and with less excuse, i'll say.
one of the things that modern civilization is supposed to have done is to bring us into a greater awareness of the human condition and the stupidity of applying stone age mores to our culture
\but my country has no problem with it. we maintain a facade of comprehensive advances in art, literature, the sciences, and so on
but we kill each other at the water hole just like our ancwestors did 14,000 years ago.
at least the scythians were innocent of pretending to be other than what they were.
The world is fine, it's all those rotten humans that are the problem!
Reportedly there were 67 shootings in Chicago with only 13 fatalities. A similar number in New York City but with fewer fatalities. Is it interesting to observe that not one of those shootings and killings was by a cop? Does that suggest that maybe we should attack the problem at its source, not so much by de-funding police departments.
There are reasons for the madness that these numbers imply. We must address those reasons and work on solutions or at least some mitigations.
Hurrah! The police in the US managed to not murder anybody in the last few days! :jumps:
Or, they just haven't found the bodies. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.stardock.net%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fthemes%2Fdigicons%2FGagged.png&hash=9b545d9c6babbe58bf3eb16c42e338f7edf55876)
All this happened on the American Independence Day. Why? I mean does this always happen or is it just that people like fireworks no matter what the source. In this case, guns. Is there something significant about the day that the news just had to report it?
Quote from: Tom62 on July 09, 2020, 07:38:03 AM
Innocent people being killed by the police is a rather rare event, you are more likely to be killed by lightning (even if you are a black man). Yes, any death caused by the police is awful but we should keep things in perspective and not close our eyes for other causes of death.
I find this kind of reasoning rather odd. What are you trying to lead us to? A type of natural event kills more people than the police murdering people, so care less about the police murdering people and let's start asking lightning to stop killing so many people? Odd, irrational, and quite silly.
Quote from: Randy on July 09, 2020, 03:28:25 PM
All this happened on the American Independence Day. Why? I mean does this always happen or is it just that people like fireworks no matter what the source. In this case, guns. Is there something significant about the day that the news just had to report it?
crowds and alcohol
May have been some calculation involved. A gun-totin' criminal who had an inclination to shoot up somebody or bodies might consider that the general percussive racket on the Fourth would act as sonic camouflage for the operation. Slightly improves the odds for a successful getaway.
Why not both!? ;D In my previous neighborhood, we were just a block from the 3rd highest crime reporting district in the City of LA, in the San Fernando Valley. Essentially in the barrio. We heard gunfire all the time (usually midnight- 2AM after the bars closed), and especially on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Not just the Hispanics, either. We had a crazy white guy living next door that launched fireworks and shot his .45 pistol into the air on those days. It sounded like Armageddon in that neighborhood.
Quote from: Davin on July 09, 2020, 08:06:40 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on July 09, 2020, 07:38:03 AM
Innocent people being killed by the police is a rather rare event, you are more likely to be killed by lightning (even if you are a black man). Yes, any death caused by the police is awful but we should keep things in perspective and not close our eyes for other causes of death.
I find this kind of reasoning rather odd. What are you trying to lead us to? A type of natural event kills more people than the police murdering people, so care less about the police murdering people and let's start asking lightning to stop killing so many people? Odd, irrational, and quite silly.
No, it is not silly. What I am trying to say is that innocent people being killed by the police is a very sad but rare event. We are talking about <1% of all deaths. Solving that particular problem doesn't bring the murder rate much down. The way I see it there are couple of major problems that need to be solve more urgently:
- too many guns in the hand of the "wrong" people and too much gun obsession
- random killings of innocent men, women and children by gangs or thugs
- black on black homicides (90% of all African American homicides are committed by African Americans)
- proper police training. In many European countries it takes several years of training, before one becomes a police officer; in the USA training only last on average slightly more than 600 hours (source: Wikipedia).
The question is about priorities, not about asking lightning to stop killing people.
Yes, a genuine problem of black-on-black murder in the US. Strangely, hardly ever mentioned is white-on-white murder in the US, which tracks very closely if we're going by percentages.
QuoteThe Bureau of Justice statistics data on homicide trends has shown that white-on-white killings are at 88% and the percentage of black-on-black killings is at 91%, yet the perception is that the high level of homicides that occur is just a "black thing."
[source (https://decodedscience.org/white-on-white-crime-the-hidden-truth/)]
Quote from: Recusant on July 10, 2020, 03:06:47 PM
Yes, a genuine problem of black-on-black murder in the US. Strangely, hardly ever mentioned is white-on-white murder in the US, which tracks very closely if we're going by percentages.
QuoteThe Bureau of Justice statistics data on homicide trends has shown that white-on-white killings are at 88% and the percentage of black-on-black killings is at 91%, yet the perception is that the high level of homicides that occur is just a "black thing."
[source (https://decodedscience.org/white-on-white-crime-the-hidden-truth/)]
It has to do with the number of homicides in relation to the population. African Americans are only 13% of the US population, but they are disproportionately represented in the violent crime statistics. So yes, I do see a problem here.
QuoteAccording to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher.
Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States)
Quote from: Tom62 on July 10, 2020, 06:16:10 PMIt has to do with the number of homicides in relation to the population. African Americans are only 13% of the US population, but they are disproportionately represented in the violent crime statistics. So yes, I do see a problem here.
QuoteAccording to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher.
Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States)
Hmm, couldn't have anything to do with poverty and disgusting living conditions, I suppose. The US is a violent place that treats its working poor (and the poor in general) appallingly. Pointing to black-on-black violent crime or the fact that black people are more likely to be convicted of violent crimes is nothing but a distraction from the basic issues.
Quote from: Dark Lightning on July 09, 2020, 11:12:37 PM
Why not both!? ;D In my previous neighborhood, we were just a block from the 3rd highest crime reporting district in the City of LA, in the San Fernando Valley. Essentially in the barrio. We heard gunfire all the time (usually midnight- 2AM after the bars closed), and especially on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Not just the Hispanics, either. We had a crazy white guy living next door that launched fireworks and shot his .45 pistol into the air on those days. It sounded like Armageddon in that neighborhood.
when i lived in san jose gunfire was a traditional way to celebrate christmas and new years. then the police advertised that they had some sort of device that would triangulate the source of the gunfire and then they supposedly would be right there to take you into custody. i assume it was BS but you never know.
the man across the street from me got in trouble after he built a shooting range in his basement. i don't think it was particularly dangerous but if youre going to do that in a residential neighborhood you need to pay attention to soundproofing.
i lived down in los gatos for a few years too. rich gringos, so no gunfire. in the barrio you could try to identify what was being shot by the sound and numbers of rounds. everybody always emptied a magazine doing that.
in los banos there was a police shooting range out by one of my beeyards. they would go out there and empty magazines on full auto. i don't know why the los banos police needed submachine guns to deal with the teenagers at the county fair. maybe it helped them gather em up
Quote from: Recusant on July 10, 2020, 08:38:10 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on July 10, 2020, 06:16:10 PMIt has to do with the number of homicides in relation to the population. African Americans are only 13% of the US population, but they are disproportionately represented in the violent crime statistics. So yes, I do see a problem here.
QuoteAccording to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher.
Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States)
Hmm, couldn't have anything to do with poverty and appalling living conditions, I suppose.
Well, I think they are part of the problem. Other important factor is the absence of a father at home (most African American families are now fatherless). All studies (http://fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-consequences-of-fatherlessness/) show that children from fatherless homes are more likely to be poor, become involved in drug and alcohol abuse, drop out of school, and suffer from health and emotional problems. Boys are more likely to become involved in crime, and girls are more likely to become pregnant as teens.
Quote from: billy rubin on July 10, 2020, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on July 09, 2020, 11:12:37 PM
Why not both!? ;D In my previous neighborhood, we were just a block from the 3rd highest crime reporting district in the City of LA, in the San Fernando Valley. Essentially in the barrio. We heard gunfire all the time (usually midnight- 2AM after the bars closed), and especially on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Not just the Hispanics, either. We had a crazy white guy living next door that launched fireworks and shot his .45 pistol into the air on those days. It sounded like Armageddon in that neighborhood.
when i lived in san jose gunfire was a traditional way to celebrate christmas and new years. then the police advertised that they had some sort of device that would triangulate the source of the gunfire and then they supposedly would be right there to take you into custody. i assume it was BS but you never know.
the man across the street from me got in trouble after he built a shooting range in his basement. i don't think it was particularly dangerous but if youre going to do that in a residential neighborhood you need to pay attention to soundproofing.
i lived down in los gatos for a few years too. rich gringos, so no gunfire. in the barrio you could try to identify what was being shot by the sound and numbers of rounds. everybody always emptied a magazine doing that.
in los banos there was a police shooting range out by one of my beeyards. they would go out there and empty magazines on full auto. i don't know why the los banos police needed submachine guns to deal with the teenagers at the county fair. maybe it helped them gather em up
Yes, a device for triangulation of loud noises exists. Been around in some form or another for over a century. Don't know if it existed when you lived in SJ, though this article talks about Palo Alto, which isn't that far away. The armed services have fielded them to take out snipers. They don't operate in automatic return fire though, since someone friendly could walk in front of it when it responded to the sniper fire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfire_locator
Quote from: Tom62 on July 10, 2020, 09:00:56 PM
Quote from: Recusant on July 10, 2020, 08:38:10 PMHmm, couldn't have anything to do with poverty and appalling living conditions, I suppose.
Well, I think they are part of the problem. Other important factor is the absence of a father at home (most African American families are now fatherless). All studies (http://fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-consequences-of-fatherlessness/) show that children from fatherless homes are more likely to be poor, become involved in drug and alcohol abuse, drop out of school, and suffer from health and emotional problems. Boys are more likely to become involved in crime, and girls are more likely to become pregnant as teens.
Yes, single-parent families often don't do as well. The question then arises: "Why so many fatherless homes in the black community?"
"12 charts show how racial disparities persist across wealth, health, education and beyond" |
USA Today (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2020/06/18/12-charts-racial-disparities-persist-across-wealth-health-and-beyond/3201129001/)
QuoteBlack people have long suffered from persistent inequality in the United States due to centuries of racism, discrimination and the long-lasting effects of slavery. This has created conditions that make it difficult for Black Americans to get ahead.
Systemic racism — at times called structural racism or institutional racism — is "the complex interaction of culture, policy and institutions that holds in place the outcomes we see in our lives," says Glenn Harris, president of Race Forward. Systemic racism leads to disparities in many "success indicators," he says, including wealth, health, criminal justice, employment, housing, political representation and education.
And numbers from official sources over decades of time back this up.
Here are one dozen charts, showing how inequities impact not just Black Americans' quality of life, but length of life.
[Continues . . . (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2020/06/18/12-charts-racial-disparities-persist-across-wealth-health-and-beyond/3201129001/)]
Quote from: billy rubin on July 10, 2020, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on July 09, 2020, 11:12:37 PM
Why not both!? ;D In my previous neighborhood, we were just a block from the 3rd highest crime reporting district in the City of LA, in the San Fernando Valley. Essentially in the barrio. We heard gunfire all the time (usually midnight- 2AM after the bars closed), and especially on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Not just the Hispanics, either. We had a crazy white guy living next door that launched fireworks and shot his .45 pistol into the air on those days. It sounded like Armageddon in that neighborhood.
when i lived in san jose gunfire was a traditional way to celebrate christmas and new years. then the police advertised that they had some sort of device that would triangulate the source of the gunfire and then they supposedly would be right there to take you into custody. i assume it was BS but you never know.
the man across the street from me got in trouble after he built a shooting range in his basement. i don't think it was particularly dangerous but if youre going to do that in a residential neighborhood you need to pay attention to soundproofing.
i lived down in los gatos for a few years too. rich gringos, so no gunfire. in the barrio you could try to identify what was being shot by the sound and numbers of rounds. everybody always emptied a magazine doing that.
in los banos there was a police shooting range out by one of my beeyards. they would go out there and empty magazines on full auto. i don't know why the los banos police needed submachine guns to deal with the teenagers at the county fair. maybe it helped them gather em up
Gunfire location systems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfire_locator) have existed for decades. I first heard about them during The Troubles in Northern Ireland.
Quote from: Recusant on July 11, 2020, 04:06:36 AM
Yes, single-parent families often don't do as well. The question then arises: "Why so many fatherless homes in the black community?"
"12 charts show how racial disparities persist across wealth, health, education and beyond" | USA Today (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2020/06/18/12-charts-racial-disparities-persist-across-wealth-health-and-beyond/3201129001/)
QuoteBlack people have long suffered from persistent inequality in the United States due to centuries of racism, discrimination and the long-lasting effects of slavery. This has created conditions that make it difficult for Black Americans to get ahead.
Systemic racism — at times called structural racism or institutional racism — is "the complex interaction of culture, policy and institutions that holds in place the outcomes we see in our lives," says Glenn Harris, president of Race Forward. Systemic racism leads to disparities in many "success indicators," he says, including wealth, health, criminal justice, employment, housing, political representation and education.
And numbers from official sources over decades of time back this up.
Here are one dozen charts, showing how inequities impact not just Black Americans' quality of life, but length of life.
[Continues . . . (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2020/06/18/12-charts-racial-disparities-persist-across-wealth-health-and-beyond/3201129001/)]
There are lots of factors at play here, not only economical but also traditional African influences; the Post-1960s expansion of the U.S. welfare state; decline of black marriages; rise in divorce rates and black male incarnation and mortality rates. Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure).
I wouldn't throw everything on a systemic racism heap, that is an easy cop out. No matter what, people are still responsible for their own deeds. There are many African Americans who are doing very well, even though they grew up under pretty bad circumstances. They should be the role models for African American kids.
Quote from: Dark Lightning on July 10, 2020, 09:47:20 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on July 10, 2020, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on July 09, 2020, 11:12:37 PM
Why not both!? ;D In my previous neighborhood, we were just a block from the 3rd highest crime reporting district in the City of LA, in the San Fernando Valley. Essentially in the barrio. We heard gunfire all the time (usually midnight- 2AM after the bars closed), and especially on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Not just the Hispanics, either. We had a crazy white guy living next door that launched fireworks and shot his .45 pistol into the air on those days. It sounded like Armageddon in that neighborhood.
when i lived in san jose gunfire was a traditional way to celebrate christmas and new years. then the police advertised that they had some sort of device that would triangulate the source of the gunfire and then they supposedly would be right there to take you into custody. i assume it was BS but you never know.
the man across the street from me got in trouble after he built a shooting range in his basement. i don't think it was particularly dangerous but if youre going to do that in a residential neighborhood you need to pay attention to soundproofing.
i lived down in los gatos for a few years too. rich gringos, so no gunfire. in the barrio you could try to identify what was being shot by the sound and numbers of rounds. everybody always emptied a magazine doing that.
in los banos there was a police shooting range out by one of my beeyards. they would go out there and empty magazines on full auto. i don't know why the los banos police needed submachine guns to deal with the teenagers at the county fair. maybe it helped them gather em up
Yes, a device for triangulation of loud noises exists. Been around in some form or another for over a century. Don't know if it existed when you lived in SJ, though this article talks about Palo Alto, which isn't that far away. The armed services have fielded them to take out snipers. They don't operate in automatic return fire though, since someone friendly could walk in front of it when it responded to the sniper fire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfire_locator
shitfire it waz real
i lived in the bay area up to 1993, then moved south to hollister and then out into the valley
i had no idea. i thought it was like the fake television zet detectors that the british drove aroud years ago trying to frighten people into buying a television set licenze
Quote from: Tom62 on July 10, 2020, 06:49:18 AM
Quote from: Davin on July 09, 2020, 08:06:40 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on July 09, 2020, 07:38:03 AM
Innocent people being killed by the police is a rather rare event, you are more likely to be killed by lightning (even if you are a black man). Yes, any death caused by the police is awful but we should keep things in perspective and not close our eyes for other causes of death.
I find this kind of reasoning rather odd. What are you trying to lead us to? A type of natural event kills more people than the police murdering people, so care less about the police murdering people and let's start asking lightning to stop killing so many people? Odd, irrational, and quite silly.
No, it is not silly. What I am trying to say is that innocent people being killed by the police is a very sad but rare event. We are talking about <1% of all deaths. Solving that particular problem doesn't bring the murder rate much down. The way I see it there are couple of major problems that need to be solve more urgently:
- too many guns in the hand of the "wrong" people and too much gun obsession
- random killings of innocent men, women and children by gangs or thugs
- black on black homicides (90% of all African American homicides are committed by African Americans)
- proper police training. In many European countries it takes several years of training, before one becomes a police officer; in the USA training only last on average slightly more than 600 hours (source: Wikipedia).
The question is about priorities, not about asking lightning to stop killing people.
Yes, it is still very silly. Having a state that has an armed force that is allowed to murder people is something we can do something about. Controlling the weather is not. So it's a very silly way to try to minimize the state murdering people.
My priorities are that the state should not be allowed to continue to murder people. It's not simply the loss of life that is the problem with doing nothing about the police being allowed to murder people. It's a huge red flag that leads the country towards all of us losing all our rights and having no peaceful way to resolve societal problems that are rooted in the state. That is a very urgent problem, because it has been going on for a while and it keeps getting worse.
It's also very silly that you act like we can't work on more than one problem at a time.
Quote from: Davin on July 13, 2020, 07:05:37 PM
Yes, it is still very silly. Having a state that has an armed force that is allowed to murder people is something we can do something about. Controlling the weather is not. So it's a very silly way to try to minimize the state murdering people.
My priorities are that the state should not be allowed to continue to murder people. It's not simply the loss of life that is the problem with doing nothing about the police being allowed to murder people. It's a huge red flag that leads the country towards all of us losing all our rights and having no peaceful way to resolve societal problems that are rooted in the state. That is a very urgent problem, because it has been going on for a while and it keeps getting worse.
It's also very silly that you act like we can't work on more than one problem at a time.
I'm with you on that bad cops killing innocent people is a problem. Yes, that problem needs to be solved as well and it can be done in parallel. I never mentioned anywhere that we could not work on one problem at the time. Like I said in my previous post, it is important that your US cops get better training. Badly trained cops is a recipe for disaster. There should also a very good controls in place to keep cops in check. How could for example the cop, who murdered George Floyd, still continue to work after receiving 18 complaints? Three counts and you are out, sounds like a better idea. And while we are at it, why not demilitarise the police as well? The main task of the police is to serve the people; not to start a war against them.
Quote from: Tom62 on July 11, 2020, 08:21:44 AM
Quote from: Recusant on July 11, 2020, 04:06:36 AM
Yes, single-parent families often don't do as well. The question then arises: "Why so many fatherless homes in the black community?"
"12 charts show how racial disparities persist across wealth, health, education and beyond" | USA Today (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2020/06/18/12-charts-racial-disparities-persist-across-wealth-health-and-beyond/3201129001/)
QuoteBlack people have long suffered from persistent inequality in the United States due to centuries of racism, discrimination and the long-lasting effects of slavery. This has created conditions that make it difficult for Black Americans to get ahead.
Systemic racism — at times called structural racism or institutional racism — is "the complex interaction of culture, policy and institutions that holds in place the outcomes we see in our lives," says Glenn Harris, president of Race Forward. Systemic racism leads to disparities in many "success indicators," he says, including wealth, health, criminal justice, employment, housing, political representation and education.
And numbers from official sources over decades of time back this up.
Here are one dozen charts, showing how inequities impact not just Black Americans' quality of life, but length of life.
[Continues . . . (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2020/06/18/12-charts-racial-disparities-persist-across-wealth-health-and-beyond/3201129001/)]
There are lots of factors at play here
Don't you find it weird that you only acknowledge there being lots of factors and that situations are complicated when you've been shown to be wrong? I think it's weird.
Quote from: Tom62not only economical but also traditional African influences; the Post-1960s expansion of the U.S. welfare state; decline of black marriages; rise in divorce rates and black male incarnation and mortality rates. Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure).
What "traditional African Influences" are you talking about here specifically? Can you source the "traditional African influences?"
For instance:
https://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/05/06/census-bureau-links-poverty-with-out-of-wedlock-births
Quote
Data revealed a significant link between income and out-of-wedlock births. Of women making less than $10,000 who gave birth in the previous year, 68.9 percent were not married. That statistic dropped progressively going up the household income ladder, with a 9 percent rate for households earning more than $200,000 a year.
Blacks tend to be in the lower income level (Source (https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2018/demo/p60-263/figure1.pdf)), due to systematic racism, so maybe it's more to do with income level than it is with whatever these unspecified "traditional African influences" are.
Quote from: Tom62
I wouldn't throw everything on a systemic racism heap, that is an easy cop out. No matter what, people are still responsible for their own deeds. There are many African Americans who are doing very well, even though they grew up under pretty bad circumstances. They should be the role models for African American kids.
No one throws everything into the systematic racism heap, but it is a huge problem that leads to causing a lot of down the line issues. People making it through the cracks of a system is not a good indicator that the system is not corrupt. What is a good sign that systematic racism is less of a problem, is if most of the indicators start to level off in terms of race. For instance: drug use and selling is reported to be about the same percentage in all tracked races, however we incarcerate a larger percentage of blacks for drug offenses than we do whites. We also give harsher sentences to blacks than we do whites. That shows that there is a systematic racism problem.
Quote from: Tom62 on July 13, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Davin on July 13, 2020, 07:05:37 PM
Yes, it is still very silly. Having a state that has an armed force that is allowed to murder people is something we can do something about. Controlling the weather is not. So it's a very silly way to try to minimize the state murdering people.
My priorities are that the state should not be allowed to continue to murder people. It's not simply the loss of life that is the problem with doing nothing about the police being allowed to murder people. It's a huge red flag that leads the country towards all of us losing all our rights and having no peaceful way to resolve societal problems that are rooted in the state. That is a very urgent problem, because it has been going on for a while and it keeps getting worse.
It's also very silly that you act like we can't work on more than one problem at a time.
I'm with you on that bad cops killing innocent people is a problem. Yes, that problem needs to be solved as well and it can be done in parallel. I never mentioned anywhere that we could not work on one problem at the time.
Right, not expressly, but implicitly you have. What else do you mean saying that we need to keep things in perspective because lightning kills more people that cops do? I can't think of anything other than you trying to say because there is a natural event kills more than cops murdering people we shouldn't worry so much about cops murdering people. So your statement, is still quite silly.
Quote from: Tom62
Like I said in my previous post, it is important that your US cops get better training. Badly trained cops is a recipe for disaster. There should also a very good controls in place to keep cops in check. How could for example the cop, who murdered George Floyd, still continue to work after receiving 18 complaints? Three counts and you are out, sounds like a better idea. And while we are at it, why not demilitarise the police as well? The main task of the police is to serve the people; not to start a war against them.
The training issue is part of the solution for defunding the police. Instead of trying to get cops to be trained in every kind of situation they might face, have different kinds departments set up to handle different types of situations. Having armed police to go out and handle someone with mental problems is usually a bad idea. It often ends up with the use excessive force because they are not complying with the cops orders fast enough and they really don't like that. Also, yeah, cops need to be held accountable to people outside of the police force.
There is a really popular "training" seminar that teaches cops that they are separate and better than the public. Apart from and superior to. And that they are warriors that need to be prepared to kill at any and all times. Maybe we should defund those training seminars.
Maybe we should listen to the experts instead.
Food for thoughts.... (https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_abt_why_violence_clusters_in_cities_and_how_to_reduce_it)
Quote from: Tom62 on July 14, 2020, 07:02:14 AM
Maybe we should listen to the experts instead.
Food for thoughts.... (https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_abt_why_violence_clusters_in_cities_and_how_to_reduce_it)
Are you not already listening to experts? Who are you listening to then?
https://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/violence
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-0-306-48039-3_4
https://www.keranews.org/post/exploring-connection-between-violent-crime-and-poverty
https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/322568-violence-is-a-symptom-of-poverty-not-a-cause
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/21stC/issue-1.2/Poverty.htm
Appropriate for this thread, I think. If a critique of the study described below has not yet been written by somebody from the Pioneer Fund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Fund) or a similar organization, we can expect one soon. That should be a hoot.
"A Judge Asked Harvard to Find Out Why So Many Black People Were In Prison. They Could Only Find 1 Answer: Systemic Racism" |
The Root (https://www.theroot.com/a-judge-asked-harvard-to-find-out-why-so-many-black-peo-1845017462)
QuoteIt wasn't Black-on-Black crime. Violent video games and rap songs had nothing to do with it; nor did poverty, education, two-parent homes or the international "bootstraps" shortage. When a judge tasked researchers with explaining why Massachusetts' Black and Latinx incarceration was so high, a four-year study came up with one conclusion.
Racism.
It was always racism.
According to 2016 data (https://www.mass.gov/doc/selected-race-statistics/download) from the Massachusetts Sentencing Commission, 655 of every 100,000 Black people in Massachusetts are in prison. Meanwhile, the state locks up 82 of its white citizens for every 100,000 who reside in the state. While an eight-to-one racial disparity might seem like a lot for one criminal justice system, nationwide, African Americans are imprisoned at almost six times the rate of white people. So, in 2016, Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court Chief Justice Ralph Gants asked Harvard researchers to "take a hard look at how we can better fulfill our promise to provide equal justice for every litigant."
After gathering the raw numbers from nearly every government agency in the state's criminal justice system, examining the data, and researching the disparate outcomes, Harvard Law School's Criminal Justice Policy Program found that Black incarcerees received more severe charges, harsher sentences and less favorable outcomes than their white counterparts. They looked at more than a million cases, from the initial charges through the conviction and sentencing, and discovered disparities that could not be explained by logic or reason.
[. . .]
What they found is the criminal justice system is unequal on every level. Cops in the state are more likely to stop Black drivers. Police are more likely to search or investigate Black residents. Law enforcement agents charge Black suspects with infractions that carry worse penalties. Prosecutors are less likely to offer Black suspects plea bargains or pre-trial intervention. Judges sentence Black defendants to longer terms in prison. And get this: The average white felon in the Massachusetts Department of Corrections has committed a more severe crime than the average Black inmate.
The study, "Racial Disparities in the Massachusetts Criminal System (http://cjpp.law.harvard.edu/assets/Massachusetts-Racial-Disparity-Report-FINAL.pdf)" (pdf) unearthed a number of factors that contribute to these significant disparities . . .
[Continues . . . (https://www.theroot.com/a-judge-asked-harvard-to-find-out-why-so-many-black-peo-1845017462)]
Depressingly not unexpected.