I'm 19 I was raised a christian (parents aren't particularly extreme) and while I tried to be a good christian church was always a chore for me. I've always had a strong sense of right and wrong which was not really influenced by the bible.
Edit: Interestingly enough while I care about my parents I don't feel I connect very deeply with them, my father has never been a strong figure in my life, more of a close friend. I thought this was interesting and was wondering if any of you had this.
I stopped believing when I was about 14, mainly due to the unfair rules I feel christianity puts on casual sex and gay sex (I realise we've all got our own views about it but to me there's nothing wrong with it), stopping believing hurt at first because I had to redefine how I viewed life but I think it improved my life and opened up a lot more possibilities.
My views haven't really changed since then, except the fact I've now seen the extremists who abuse people in the street and the fear of me being wrong increases. My mind can't help but approach the topic from the idea that god might exist and be pissed off with me right now. There's also the fact if I try to justify my beliefs or my objections to these people I know they'll have some complex answer that I don't know enough to argue with.
My question is this... should I read the bible so that I can argue from a more knowledgeable pov?
Although I try not to be biased, I really do not want to become religious because I know how it will alter my life and my perceptions - will reading the bible make me religious (considering the stories religious people love to tell about how "atheist scum reads the bible sees the truth"?
The idea of reading the bible doesn't really interest me and could turn out to be an enormous waste of time though, and even then there might always be another religious voice telling me "oh you should read our book it has a much better understanding of the true god than the christians".
What do you think?
Quote from: IDontHateBelievers on May 27, 2016, 07:23:08 PM
I'm 19 I was raised a christian (parents aren't particularly extreme) and while I tried to be a good christian church was always a chore for me. I've always had a strong sense of right and wrong which was not really influenced by the bible. I stopped believing when I was about 14, mainly due to the unfair rules I feel christianity puts on casual sex and gay sex (I realise we've all got our own views about it but to me there's nothing wrong with it), stopping believing hurt at first because I had to redefine how I viewed life but I think it improved my life and opened up a lot more possibilities.
My views haven't really changed since then, except the fact I've now seen the extremists who yell in the street and the fear of being wrong increases. My mind can't help but approach the topic but from the idea that god might exist and be pissed off with me right now. There's also the fact if I try to justify my beliefs or my objections to these people I know they'll have some complex answer that I don't know enough to argue with.
My question is this... should I read the bible so that I can argue from a more knowledgeable pov?
Although I try not to be biased, I really do not want to become religious because I know how it will alter my life and my perceptions - will reading the bible make me religious (considering the stories religious people love to tell about how "atheist scum reads the bible sees the truth"?
The idea of reading the bible doesn't really interest me and could turn out to be an enormous waste of time though, and even then there might always be another religious voice telling me "oh you should read our book it has a much better understanding of the true god than the christians".
What do you think?
Hello and welcome to HAF,
IDontHateBelievers.
That's an interesting and worthwhile first post!
If you're not really interested in reading the Bible and are thinking of doing it simply to improve your ability to argue with Christians, I'd say it would very likely be a waste of your time unless you really enjoy arguing with Christians. ;)
However, there are online resources that might interest you. There's the Skeptic's Annotated Bible (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/), in which contradictions and other issues with the Bible are highlighted. For a more entertaining take, there is the Brick Testament (http://www.thebricktestament.com/) (new site here (http://thebrickbible.com/index.php/index.php)), which while not that overtly critical, does have a mildly subversive presentation of the stories in the Bible. There is also the very critical Evil Bible (http://www.evilbible.com/) site.
As for the idea that reading the Bible will result in you converting to Christianity, I doubt there is much chance of that. I've discussed religion and atheism with many people over the years, and have read
thousands of probably more than a thousand intro posts on this site alone. A recurring theme is that reading the Bible was instrumental in a person losing their Christian faith. Evangelists are infamous for their willingness to depart from honesty when they think it will serve their purposes, and the "I used to be an atheist until I read the Bible" trope is a common example of that. I'm not saying it never happens, but several of the people I've encountered who've said that have shown themselves to be deceitful in other ways, so that I doubt whether their "atheist who read the Bible and became Christian" story is real.
I hope you enjoy your time reading and posting here. :welcome:
[Edited to modify possible hyperbole. -- R]
Thank you, I appreciate that!
Reading the Bible as an adult is what made me an atheist. There is some good stuff in there, and there are good cultural references, but there's an awful lot of nonsense and evil too.
Hello, IDontHateBelievers! Bit of a mouthful, that name. :o Don't be surprised if you get a nickname.
It is my experience, much like Recusant, that there is too much wrong in the goddamn bible to take it seriously if read from cover to cover. What believers do is they cherry pick a few nice bits to read in church on Sundays. If properly read (picked up at "In the beginning..." and put down at "...the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen!") the contradictions and immorality of the bible is very hard to ignore.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/refuting-the-bible
I tried to read the whole bible at one point when I was trying to be a good little Baptist but honestly I got so bored that I gave up. I feel like unless you are actively trying to win arguments there is no point.
I've read the bible twice and frankly consider it an interesting book, altho yes, the first reading is what helped make me an atheist. I have no interest in arguing with believers, but I do have a love for myths from all cultures. Another big plus of bible reading for me are all the places that are (I assume) unintentionally funny.
I always encourage reading the bible, particularly for Americans since familiarity with it really helps understanding our general culture and politics. After all, this is what a lot of people are using to base their personal and political opinions on. It's also useful in understanding Western literature.
Quote from: Guardian85 on May 28, 2016, 12:14:39 AM
Don't be surprised if you get a nickname.
Fred. So Spaketh The Asmo.
Yes, Fred, I think you should read the Bible. And the Qur'an. And pretty much anything else that has power over so many. Harry Potter... Not so much, no. It really is crap under all the upspin.
When it comes to people and their long-winded lobbying for support of their own bias, you don't
have to engage them in debate. If you find their arguments persuasive, you can fact-check them on your own. You don't have to be able to argue the finer points of the Holy Quadrilateral of Christian apologetics, for instance, not to buy what they are selling outright.
Minor edit: Oh! I don't have
deep emotional attachemnts to my family either, so if you want to psychoanalyze it... I'm game. Also, the no sex before marriage bullshit is an axcellent reason to dump your controlling godfriend. I had casual sex at fourteen (Actually, I was still technically 13, but with days to go to my birthday), if you can call your debut... Casual. You can, and from the height of decades gone by, you should. It just didn't seem so at the time.
My point is, a lot of people screw each other even before mid-teens, and they turn out OK. Also, they are bloody awesome in bed in those late teenage years. Why I used me to demonstrate that point... We can psychoanalyze that too.
So yeah... Welcome and thanks for being interesting in your intro post.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 28, 2016, 10:55:50 AM
My point is, a lot of people screw each other even before mid-teens, and they turn out OK. Also, they are bloody awesome in bed in those late teenage years.
Indeed but I hope you aren't still messing about with them.
Quote from: Crow on May 28, 2016, 11:27:15 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 28, 2016, 10:55:50 AM
My point is, a lot of people screw each other even before mid-teens, and they turn out OK. Also, they are bloody awesome in bed in those late teenage years.
Indeed but I hope you aren't still messing about with them.
With who? 14-year olds? Late-teenagers? People who are good in bed? Too old for a and b, but I certainly do mess about, as you put it, with "appropriately-aged" people who know their way around great sex.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 28, 2016, 10:55:50 AM
Harry Potter... Not so much, no. It really is crap under all the upspin.
Blasphemer!
QuoteShould I read the bible and will it brainwash me?
Swear your self to HAF and you will be gifted an unholy bundle of string which you can use to extricate yourself from unwanted washing, as long as you believe in the string, believe in the string, believe in the string, believe in the string, believe in the string!!!
:this:
I'm using this one, I don't care what anybody says. :sidesmile:
Quote from: Asmodean on May 28, 2016, 10:55:50 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on May 28, 2016, 12:14:39 AM
Don't be surprised if you get a nickname.
Fred. So Spaketh The Asmo.
What's with the naming people Fred lately? I don't object to the name at all and it does simplify things, but why "Fred"?
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 28, 2016, 11:49:20 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 28, 2016, 10:55:50 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on May 28, 2016, 12:14:39 AM
Don't be surprised if you get a nickname.
Fred. So Spaketh The Asmo.
What's with the naming people Fred lately? I don't object to the name at all and it does simplify things, but why "Fred"?
It says why. Because so spake The Asmo. >:(
Quote from: Asmodean on May 28, 2016, 11:50:36 PM
It says why. Because so spake The Asmo. >:(
Fine. But just to let you know, the lack of questioning was why I ditched my last god.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on May 28, 2016, 05:00:57 PM
QuoteShould I read the bible and will it brainwash me?
Swear your self to HAF and you will be gifted an unholy bundle of string which you can use to extricate yourself from unwanted washing, as long as you believe in the string, believe in the string, believe in the string, believe in the string, believe in the string!!!
I want to believe!!!!
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 28, 2016, 11:52:55 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 28, 2016, 11:50:36 PM
It says why. Because so spake The Asmo. >:(
Fine. But just to let you know, the lack of questioning was why I ditched my last god.
Ah, yes, but Asmology is clingier than a two days old soda spill.
Quote from: IDontHateBelievers on May 27, 2016, 07:30:55 PM
My question is this... should I read the bible so that I can argue from a more knowledgeable pov?
Knowing your terrain helps, so to speak. You will certainly argue from a more knowledgeable pov if you do read your Bible. :smilenod:
I've always wanted to read the
whole bible - particularly the King James version - but more for its literary value than actual content. I've never gotten round to it, though. :P
QuoteAlthough I try not to be biased, I really do not want to become religious because I know how it will alter my life and my perceptions - will reading the bible make me religious (considering the stories religious people love to tell about how "atheist scum reads the bible sees the truth"?
The idea of reading the bible doesn't really interest me and could turn out to be an enormous waste of time though, and even then there might always be another religious voice telling me "oh you should read our book it has a much better understanding of the true god than the christians".
I know of more cases in which religious people became atheists after reading the bible than the other way round, I guess it depends a lot more on how your belief system was structured when you were a believer and your epistemological views. What do you value more, objectivity or subjectivity? Have you had any personal experiences involving religious belief or were you just told that those were true?
I doubt you would like the Christian god if you did read your bible. Christians cherry-pick and speak of love but it seems to me like the worst of human nature was also projected onto that deity...
Hi IDHB
Consider this. You read the Bible and become an expert on its contents. I would contend that it would not help you argue with believers because they are 'believers'. They are not rational or sceptical but irrational and gulible. They don't want to hear rebuttals of their emotional comfort blanket. There are so many contradictions in the Bible that for any rational observation you make about some irrational point the contra argument will exist somewhere else.
Welcome to HAF.
Regards
Chris
Quote from: Tank on May 29, 2016, 02:26:52 PM
Hi IDHB
Fred. It's The Asmo's turn to name stuff. :)
You should read the Bible because it is a significant source of what makes up Western culture. In your reading, remember that the "Bible" is not one book. It is a collection of 66 writings, some historical, some non-historical, some literal, some symbolic. Read it and make up your own mind. Why should you be afraid of written words?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 29, 2016, 03:46:37 PM
Why should you be afraid of written words?
Words have power. Look at at how many people believe those words and the words of other non Xian religious texts.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 29, 2016, 09:41:58 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 29, 2016, 03:46:37 PM
Why should you be afraid of written words?
Words have power. Look at at how many people believe those words and the words of other non Xian religious texts.
Doesn't mean he shouldn't read it and make up his own mind. I agree with Ecurb. Then again, I tried reading it front to back and never made it past Genesis, so what do I know? I was an atheist long before I attempted that project.
Quote from: Firebird on May 29, 2016, 11:40:24 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 29, 2016, 09:41:58 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 29, 2016, 03:46:37 PM
Why should you be afraid of written words?
Words have power. Look at at how many people believe those words and the words of other non Xian religious texts.
Doesn't mean he shouldn't read it and make up his own mind. I agree with Ecurb. Then again, I tried reading it front to back and never made it past Genesis, so what do I know? I was an atheist long before I attempted that project.
I'm not saying that I think he shouldn't read it. As I wrote previously, I think that if he wants to argue from a more knowledgeable standpoint then he
should read it.
What I meant by my comment was that words have the power to get people to think certain ways, to form opinions and to manipulate those who are vulnerable for whatever reason. Don't underestimate words, especially not those that cause billions (all the religious that base their beliefs on texts, not just Xians) of people to act certain ways. ;)
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 29, 2016, 11:52:56 PM
Quote from: Firebird on May 29, 2016, 11:40:24 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 29, 2016, 09:41:58 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 29, 2016, 03:46:37 PM
Why should you be afraid of written words?
Words have power. Look at at how many people believe those words and the words of other non Xian religious texts.
Doesn't mean he shouldn't read it and make up his own mind. I agree with Ecurb. Then again, I tried reading it front to back and never made it past Genesis, so what do I know? I was an atheist long before I attempted that project.
I'm not saying that I think he shouldn't read it. As I wrote previously, I think that if he wants to argue from a more knowledgeable standpoint then he should read it.
What I meant by my comment was that words have the power to get people to think certain ways, to form opinions and to manipulate those who are vulnerable for whatever reason. Don't underestimate words, especially not those that cause billions (all the religious that base their beliefs on texts, not just Xians) of people to act certain ways. ;)
Still no reason to be afraid of words. Fear of words is the foundation of censorship. The title of this thread shows fear of words, of being brainwashed.
Throwing words around can hurt. Especially if they are written on a brick
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 30, 2016, 06:29:51 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 29, 2016, 11:52:56 PM
Quote from: Firebird on May 29, 2016, 11:40:24 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 29, 2016, 09:41:58 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 29, 2016, 03:46:37 PM
Why should you be afraid of written words?
Words have power. Look at at how many people believe those words and the words of other non Xian religious texts.
Doesn't mean he shouldn't read it and make up his own mind. I agree with Ecurb. Then again, I tried reading it front to back and never made it past Genesis, so what do I know? I was an atheist long before I attempted that project.
I'm not saying that I think he shouldn't read it. As I wrote previously, I think that if he wants to argue from a more knowledgeable standpoint then he should read it.
What I meant by my comment was that words have the power to get people to think certain ways, to form opinions and to manipulate those who are vulnerable for whatever reason. Don't underestimate words, especially not those that cause billions (all the religious that base their beliefs on texts, not just Xians) of people to act certain ways. ;)
Still no reason to be afraid of words. Fear of words is the foundation of censorship. The title of this thread shows fear of words, of being brainwashed.
Not feared, respected. ;)
IDHB, yes do read the bible or at least skim some of the passages in the various books of the bible. Either before or after you do your reading then explore the history of the "bible". When we use that word, bible, we are generally referring to the most widely used one here in the U.S., which is the King James version or KJV. Others bibles are pretty much similar but not exactly the same. You might take note of the fact that so many of the variations of the bible contain words like revised, version, new, and similar words that suggest that the book has been changed from whatever it previously was.
When you have done the most important research, which is the history of the bible, you will have discovered that it is not a reliable source of information. The book is claimed by many to contain the inerrant words of God. It is actually more of a disjointed novel with which you need to become at least marginally familiar.
You need not have any fear that reading such a tome will give you cause to become religious. There are too many places where it contradicts itself, 462 such places by some counts. There is good stuff in the book such as the story of the good samaritan, but there is also some really strange stuff. For example: in Samuel 18, David buys his wife by collecting 200 Philistine foreskins. Really?
Very few of us on the forum hate believers. We don't agree with them in matters of religion but we do hold many believers in high esteem. As a generality we are not much inclined to get into a debate with them although many of us are more than capable of overwhelming them in an intelligent argument. There is simply not much reason to engage in a contest with devout believers so why bother.
I love this contradiction:
Leviticus 20,21
And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.
Deuteronomy 25,5
If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her.
The Leviticus verse was the one on which Henry VIII based his campaign to get his marraige to Catharine of Aragon annulled.
...So what if the other brother fails to perform as well?
Quote from: Asmodean on May 31, 2016, 11:12:21 AM
...So what if the other brother fails to perform as well?
It's not a performance issue, unless by perform you mean live.
It's property rights.
If the other brother dies she goes to the next brother or if there's not one to some toothless uncle probably.
Icarus' advice about learning the history of the Bible is good. However, make sure you are looking at reliable sources. If you have questions, someone here could probably point you in the right direction. Unfortunately, right now I am a bit limited since all I have access to is my tablet and slightly slow WiFi here at the hospital.
If you fear being wrong, you should face your fears by exposing yourself to being wrong instead of running away by trying to avoid being wrong.
Quote from: Apathy on June 01, 2016, 03:24:07 PM
If you fear being wrong, you should face your fears by exposing yourself to being wrong instead of running away by trying to avoid being wrong.
No you're wrong ;D
Quote from: Tank on June 01, 2016, 06:26:13 PM
Quote from: Apathy on June 01, 2016, 03:24:07 PM
If you fear being wrong, you should face your fears by exposing yourself to being wrong instead of running away by trying to avoid being wrong.
No you're wrong ;D
Not The Asmo though. He's perfect. :)
Quote from: Asmodean on June 01, 2016, 07:22:14 PM
Quote from: Tank on June 01, 2016, 06:26:13 PM
Quote from: Apathy on June 01, 2016, 03:24:07 PM
If you fear being wrong, you should face your fears by exposing yourself to being wrong instead of running away by trying to avoid being wrong.
No you're wrong ;D
Not The Asmo though. He's perfect. :)
That is a given. :)