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Creationist wet dream.

Started by Siz, November 14, 2015, 07:40:42 AM

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Siz

http://m.phys.org/news/2015-11-earth.html?utm_content=buffer97cce&utm_medium=social&utm_source=plus.google.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Quote from: Phys.OrgNow researchers from the University of Hawaii at Manoa, using advanced ion-microprobe instrumentation, have found that rocks from Baffin Island in Canada contain evidence that Earth's water was a part of our planet from the beginning. Their research is published in the 13 November issue of the journal Science.

The research team was led by cosmochemist Dr. Lydia Hallis, then a postdoctoral fellow at the UH NASA Astrobiology Institute (UHNAI) and now Marie Curie Research Fellow at the University of Glasgow, Scotland.

The ion microprobe allowed researchers to focus on minute pockets of glass inside these scientifically important rocks, and to detect the tiny amounts of water within. The ratio of hydrogen to deuterium in the water provided them with valuable new clues as to its origins.

Hydrogen has an atomic mass of one, while deuterium, an isotope of hydrogen also known as "heavy hydrogen," has an atomic mass of two. Scientists have discovered that water from different types of planetary bodies in our solar system have distinct hydrogen to deuterium ratios.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Crow

Why would this be a creationist wet dream?
Retired member.

Siz

Why has this been moved? This is a science topic...

The fact that God did, indeed, create the Earth and its water in one go is neither here nor there....

Can it be moved back please.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Recusant

#3
This story is confusing to me. I understand that the water sample is very ancient, and that it shows that water was a component of the Earth when it was first formed. According to the abstract of the paper, the hydrogen/deuterium values "indicate the existence of a component within Earth's interior that inherited its D/H ratio directly from the protosolar nebula" (my emphasis).

All very well. However, according to this site, the protosolar nebula had a markedly different deuterium/hydrogen ratio than is currently found on Earth, and the deuterium/hydrogen ratio found in carbonaceous chondrites is very similar to what is currently found on Earth, while that found in comets is somewhat higher (chart below). So I don't see how this finding in any way precludes an extraterrestrial origin for some portion of the water that is presently on the Earth. I must be missing something, because the Phys.org story quotes one of the scientists as more or less saying that their study shows that the Earth's water has always been here. Certainly it shows that some of the water was always here, but I don't see where it's explained how they ruled out extraterrestrial sources.



Image Credit: Paul Hartogh, Max-Planck-Institut für Sonnensystemforschung
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Recusant

#4
I looked around and turned up an article in Science about this paper. It gives a bit more nuance than the Phys.org article.

QuoteHallis and her colleagues propose that Earth's water came directly from the protosolar nebula—the cloud of gas and dust that eventually clumped together to form the solar system. Based on measurements of Jupiter and the solar wind, which are thought to preserve the hydrogen isotopic ratio of the protosolar nebula, scientists think nebular water had an extremely light hydrogen isotopic signature—much closer to what the Baffin Island lavas suggest about the deep mantle's water.

Traditionally, the main objection to this idea has been that the inner portion of the protosolar nebula, where Earth formed, would have been too hot for water to hang around. But Hallis's team suggests that water floating around in the nebula snuck into our nascent planet by adsorbing to dust particles. They cite previous modeling work suggesting that this mechanism could allow a significant amount of water to survive the brutal temperatures and violent processes by which dust particles coalesced to form planets. Hallis says the discovery of a deep reservoir of material with protosolar isotope ratios supports the idea that the hot, early Earth somehow retained this water.

However, some scientists aren't ready to abandon the asteroid hypothesis just yet. That's because, on top of bringing water, they are also believed to have delivered much of Earth's so-called volatile elements, namely, carbon, nitrogen, and noble gases, says Conel Alexander, a cosmochemist at the Carnegie Institution for Science in Washington, D.C. To explain the abundance of these elements, there would have had to have been enough impacts to also deliver Earth's water, he says. "That still seems to me the simplest and most attractive explanation."

[Continues . . .]

So, this is a find that adds interesting new information and likely points to an avenue for further investigation, but it doesn't seem to have settled the origin of Earth's water, despite what the Phys.org article says. It may be that those who support the two alternative hypotheses are invested in promoting their particular view to the exclusion of the other, while the facts may be found to lie somewhere between.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Siz

I had taken from the article that the water-rich dust was given to be the largest component material of Earth. One could then have extrapolated the total volume of water that might be present, less natural losses. Although not explicit, is that not what was inferred? Perhaps I filled in too many blanks myself?!
*must be more critical*

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Ecurb Noselrub

I wouldn't call this a creationist wet dream.  Nothing in the article contradicts the idea of an old universe, old earth, or evolution.  All of those are anathema to the fundamentalist creationist.

Siz

#7
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 15, 2015, 02:53:16 PM
I wouldn't call this a creationist wet dream.  Nothing in the article contradicts the idea of an old universe, old earth, or evolution.  All of those are anathema to the fundamentalist creationist.

Ken Ham would argue that he doesn't need to prove a contradiction to the unverifiable old-universe hypothesis because it is the 'science of the past' and is therefore not a valid submission. The science that CAN be proven (i.e. that rocks contain water) supports creationism in that it is telling us that earth and water may indeed have been created concurrently.

Sorry for the rubbish pun of a thread title...

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Siz on November 15, 2015, 08:52:11 PM
Sorry for the rubbish pun of a thread title...

I thought it was pretty clever, but then again I like puns.  ;D
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Recusant

Further developments on this front.  :daddance:

"Meteorite study suggests Earth may have been wet since it formed" | PhysOrg

QuoteA new study finds that Earth's water may have come from materials that were present in the inner solar system at the time the planet formed—instead of far-reaching comets or asteroids delivering such water. The findings published Aug. 28 in Science suggest that Earth may have always been wet.

Researchers from the Centre de Recherches Petrographiques et Geochimiques (CRPG, CNRS/Universite de Lorraine) in Nancy, France, including one who is now a postdoctoral fellow at Washington University in St. Louis, determined that a type of meteorite called an enstatite chondrite contains sufficient hydrogen to deliver at least three times the amount of water contained in the Earth's oceans, and probably much more.

Enstatite chondrites are entirely composed of material from the inner solar system—essentially the same stuff that made up the Earth originally.

"Our discovery shows that the Earth's building blocks might have significantly contributed to the Earth's water," said lead author Laurette Piani, a researcher at CPRG. "Hydrogen-bearing material was present in the inner solar system at the time of the rocky planet formation, even though the temperatures were too high for water to condense."

The findings from this study are surprising because the Earth's building blocks are often presumed to be dry. They come from inner zones of the solar system where temperatures would have been too high for water to condense and come together with other solids during planet formation.

[Continues . . .]

Only a blurb and the abstract are available, unfortunately. I checked, and a free Science account won't open the full paper.

QuoteAn unexpected source of Earth's water

The abundances of Earth's chemical elements and their isotopic ratios can indicate which materials formed Earth. Enstatite chondrite (EC) meteorites provide a good isotopic match for many elements but are expected to contain no water because they formed in the hot inner Solar System. This would require Earth's water to be from a different source, such as comets. Piani et al. measured hydrogen contents and deuterium/hydrogen ratios (D/H) in 13 EC meteorites (see the Perspective by Peslier). They found far more hydrogen than is commonly assumed, with D/H close to that of Earth's mantle. Combining these data with cosmochemical models, they show that most of Earth's water could have formed from hydrogen delivered by EC meteorites.




Abstract:

The origin of Earth's water remains unknown. Enstatite chondrite (EC) meteorites have similar isotopic composition to terrestrial rocks and thus may be representative of the material that formed Earth. ECs are presumed to be devoid of water because they formed in the inner Solar System. Earth's water is therefore generally attributed to the late addition of a small fraction of hydrated materials, such as carbonaceous chondrite meteorites, which originated in the outer Solar System where water was more abundant. We show that EC meteorites contain sufficient hydrogen to have delivered to Earth at least three times the mass of water in its oceans. EC hydrogen and nitrogen isotopic compositions match those of Earth's mantle, so EC-like asteroids might have contributed these volatile elements to Earth's crust and mantle.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken