My inclination relative to this topic commences with the understanding that through various phases of my development I donned an absolute certain mindset about some issues. Experience, however, has all but completely stamped out that mentality. The only portion that still exists is that I am certain that I cannot be certain about anything.
I, in my finite mind, could not possibly KNOW the truth. I often wonder what life would be like if I could obtain absolute truth in its purest form. Seems to me it is not life's intention for truth to be within our grasp. The mystery is what keeps us searching. The search is what is so thrilling. Following is what I consider to be one of the most incisive declarations regarding truth:
Truth is a pathless land'. Man cannot come to it through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection. Man has built in himself images as a fence of security – religious, political, personal. These manifest as symbols, ideas, beliefs.
Krishnamurti
Your thoughts?
"Truth is what is left when you stop believing in something." ~ Some smart person whose name I can't remember.
Quote from: Tank on February 28, 2012, 01:00:10 PM
"Truth is what is left when you stop believing in something." ~ Some smart person whose name I can't remember.
Jesus man. That really resonates with me. Top shelf quote Tank.
Quote from: Tank on February 28, 2012, 01:00:10 PM
"Truth is what is left when you stop believing in something." ~ Some smart person whose name I can't remember.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Phillip K Dick
Quote from: Scissorlegs on February 28, 2012, 01:54:26 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 28, 2012, 01:00:10 PM
"Truth is what is left when you stop believing in something." ~ Some smart person whose name I can't remember.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Phillip K Dick
Yes, yes. More, more quotes like this. To much is not enough!
I really don't like the idea of 'absolute truth', the people I've generally heard talk about it are religious nuts who like to capitalise the word as 'Truth' when they refer to their bizarre beliefs. I don't think there's anything wrong with relative truths or approximate models that can be altered as we learn more over time. Maybe there's some absolute truth in mathematics, but I'm no mathematician. I think the whole idea that there is an 'absolute truth' derives from ancient philosophy, religion and mysticism, for me it's also getting awfully close to the idea of 'God'
I'm not even sure what 'absolute truth in its purest form' could actually be, the sum of all information of all the universe(s)? If so, it's way beyond what our brains have evolved to or need to process. I don't really think I need to know quite that much, or how much it would really benefit me if I did. I'm happy with simple relative truths that can be defined as something like 'that which can be verifiably shown to correspond to reality.'
oh, and that Phillip K. Dick quote is brilliant, not bad from a man who used to eat dog food!
Quote from: Scissorlegs on February 28, 2012, 01:54:26 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 28, 2012, 01:00:10 PM
"Truth is what is left when you stop believing in something." ~ Some smart person whose name I can't remember.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Phillip K Dick
That's the one!
Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 28, 2012, 02:25:43 PMI really don't like the idea of 'absolute truth', the people I've generally heard talk about it are religious nuts who like to capitalise the word as 'Truth' when they refer to their bizarre beliefs.[...] I'm happy with simple relative truths that can be defined as something like 'that which can be verifiably shown to correspond to reality.'
I agree with this, this is how I accept things as true. I also recommend that people should only accept things at true when they both understand the concept and the evidential support, because I see no use in someone accepting something they don't understand.
Quote from: Too Few Lionsoh, and that Phillip K. Dick quote is brilliant, not bad from a man who used to eat dog food!
One of my favourite quotes.
the "Truth" is propoganda dressing. Used by people and organisations that know they need to tie in their stories to this word somehow because otherwise it isn't obvious.
When science make discoveries and models, they don't have to dress it up. Have you ever heard E= MC2 being referred to as the truth?
If it comes with dressing and it is not a salad then there is bound to be something fishy.
Truth, such a tricky word.
On that issue I tend to side with the solipists a bit - we can't really know for certain that anything is true, only that we experience things, and even so, we can't know for certain that we're experiencing what we think we're experiencing. ???
Pure and absolute Truth may be a bit beyond our abilities to ever comprehend.
Quote from: Truthseeker on February 28, 2012, 11:57:53 AM
I, in my finite mind, could not possibly KNOW the truth.
I suppose it depends upon what you mean by truth.
First there are what are known as analytic truths, for example "2+2 = 4", "The morning star is the planet Venus", "a triangle has three angles". In general these kinds of statement are taken to be true
by definition. (Though some thinkers, most noticeably Quine, argue that even these are not certainly true).
More problematic are synthetic truths, that is truths that are not true
by definition, things that may or may not be true. For example: "The acceleration of an object is proportional to its mass and the force applied", "the moon orbits the earth", "God exists" (in fact Kant argues compellingly in
Critique of Pure Reason that all truths relating to the existence of things must be synthetic).
With regard to synthetic truths there are broadly three camps, the realists, the anti-realists and the skeptics.
The skeptics argue that synthetic truths are unobtainable as we can never discount the possibility of errors. The film the Matrix provides a nice example of this; all the
truths accepted by Neo about the world turn out to be a false construction. Reality was something very different. The skeptic points out that we can never prove we are not completely mistaken about the world (we could really be living in something like the Matrix - brains in vats).
A realist, in general, believes that certain propositions
correspond to the world. So if a realist says "the moon orbits the earth", they are making a claim about the actual shape of the universe. Importantly they are making a claim about the universe
independent of human existence. They would argue that even if all intelligent life were to cease tomorrow it would still be that case that "the moon orbits the earth."
The anti-realist, on the other hand, would argue that truth is really
pragmatic. So for the anti-realist the statement "the acceleration of an object is proportional to its mass and the force applied" may or may not correspond to the shape of the universe; what is important is that this proposition has huge utility for humans. For an anti-realist "the moon orbits the earth" is only true in so far as this information is useful; if all intelligent life ceased then "the moon orbits the earth" would no longer have any claim to truth.
It seems to me that there are problems with all these approaches. The skeptic abolishes truth entirely, this is both unhelpful (it has the unpleasant effect of reducing all truth to mere opinion) and to my mind relies upon a bad dictionary definition of truth as requiring
absolute certainty. Realists need to explain how we can know that the universe corresponds to our descriptions of it and so far no compelling account has been offered. Anti-realists, however, are hardly an improvement as truth becomes dependent upon human whim; by their theory Aristotle's idea that worms are made by squeezing mud was true up until the Enlightenment.
peace
Isaac Asimov wrote a great essay about the The Relativity of Wrong. I think it speaks very well to the idea of absolute truth.
C0nc0rdance made a very good Youtube video about it.
The Relativity of Wrong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tcOi9a3-B0&list=FL5pYL0jzMue5TJd-KsojoEQ&index=4&feature=plpp_video)
The full essay can be found here.
The Relativity of Wrong
By Isaac Asimov (http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm)
Crocoduck wrote:
Isaac Asimov wrote a great essay about the The Relativity of Wrong. I think it speaks very well to the idea of absolute truth.
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"The Greeks introduced the notion of latitude and longitude, for instance, and made reasonable maps of the Mediterranean basin even without taking sphericity into account, and we still use latitude and longitude today. "
Asimov knew about the original pytheas
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fuzzy grey areas juxtaposed occasionally, superimposed circumstancially
need and emotion and anxiety dictate our concentration magnitude and our perception resolution
every noteworthy quote from evading belief, to knowing you know nothing, is nonredundant, nessecary and irreplacable
truth is an indicator, a flag of security of stepping on the firmer ground available to human experience
"Truth" on paper and "truth" in how we actually live are two different things. I like a pragmatic approach to truth, personally.
I try not to get too attached to any "what is so," since I am constantly having what I thought were fixed bases for the things I "believe" yanked out from under my feet.
That might just be a consequence of working for a government agency, though. ;D "What is so" changes on a daily basis.
"Truth, that deuce that speaks before the noose, forsooth. How uncouth." -- Me.
The meaning of knowing the truth hinges as much on the meaning of knowing as it does on the meaning of truth. Wise men know cautiously.
Wait. So meaning and knowing can't be known? Oh god, we're fucked. ;D
Quote from: The Semaestro on March 25, 2012, 05:38:50 AM
Wait. So meaning and knowing can't be known? Oh god, we're fucked. ;D
Nope. Not at all what I said.
I suppose this is one of those times when a [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tag would have been beneficial. :-\
Quote from: Truthseeker on February 28, 2012, 11:57:53 AM
My inclination relative to this topic commences with the understanding that through various phases of my development I donned an absolute certain mindset about some issues. Experience, however, has all but completely stamped out that mentality. The only portion that still exists is that I am certain that I cannot be certain about anything.
I, in my finite mind, could not possibly KNOW the truth. I often wonder what life would be like if I could obtain absolute truth in its purest form. Seems to me it is not life's intention for truth to be within our grasp. The mystery is what keeps us searching. The search is what is so thrilling. Following is what I consider to be one of the most incisive declarations regarding truth:
Truth is a pathless land'. Man cannot come to it through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection. Man has built in himself images as a fence of security – religious, political, personal. These manifest as symbols, ideas, beliefs.
Krishnamurti
Your thoughts?
The idea that life has an intention is an empty abstraction, with respect. If the truth is ungraspable, then the search is futile from the start and you might be better off devoting your energies elsewhere.
Quote from: En_Route on April 18, 2012, 08:32:20 AM
The idea that life has an intention is an empty abstraction, with respect. If the truth is ungraspable, then the search is futile from the start and you might be better off devoting your energies elsewhere.
This is actually the central message of my post. Even though the truth may be "ungraspable", the search can be (has been) quite fulfilling and enlightening. I may want to arrive in Alaska but have no idea how to get there. Assuming all I know is the general direction sans any type of guide to get me there I may never arrive. That does not mean, however, that the "search is futile". My travel experiences could (will most likely) lend to events that enrich my life.
Quote from: Truthseeker on April 18, 2012, 11:12:16 AM
Quote from: En_Route on April 18, 2012, 08:32:20 AM
The idea that life has an intention is an empty abstraction, with respect. If the truth is ungraspable, then the search is futile from the start and you might be better off devoting your energies elsewhere.
This is actually the central message of my post. Even though the truth may be "ungraspable", the search can be (has been) quite fulfilling and enlightening. I may want to arrive in Alaska but have no idea how to get there. Assuming all I know is the general direction sans any type of guide to get me there I may never arrive. That does not mean, however, that the "search is futile". My travel experiences could (will most likely) lend to events that enrich my life.
I've always liked this quote from
The Last Samurai:
QuoteThe perfect blossom is a rare thing. You could spend your life looking for one, and it would not be a wasted life
QuoteThe perfect blossom is a rare thing. You could spend your life looking for one, and it would not be a wasted life
Precisely HG!
Quote from: Truthseeker on April 18, 2012, 11:12:16 AM
Quote from: En_Route on April 18, 2012, 08:32:20 AM
The idea that life has an intention is an empty abstraction, with respect. If the truth is ungraspable, then the search is futile from the start and you might be better off devoting your energies elsewhere.
This is actually the central message of my post. Even though the truth may be "ungraspable", the search can be (has been) quite fulfilling and enlightening. I may want to arrive in Alaska but have no idea how to get there. Assuming all I know is the general direction sans any type of guide to get me there I may never arrive. That does not mean, however, that the "search is futile". My travel experiences could (will most likely) lend to events that enrich my life.
Setting off for Alaska knowing you can never get there is a slightly different matter. I'm also not sure what "Truth" it is that you are seeking and what you would do with it if you ever did find it. Again truth is not an abstraction or some mystical holy grail waiting to be uncovered (or secreted eternally from human gaze in your version)- it is a quality attributable to observations about the world which are either true or not-true.
Quote from: En_Route on April 18, 2012, 11:45:00 AM
Setting off for Alaska knowing you can never get there is a slightly different matter. I'm also not sure what "Truth" it is that you are seeking and what you would do with it if you ever did find it. Again truth is not an abstraction or some mystical holy grail waiting to be uncovered (or secreted eternally from human gaze in your version)- it is a quality attributable to observations about the world which are either true or not-true.
Whether we agree here or not is immaterial. My point rests is the fact that the search, regardless if the object is found or not will be quite fulfilling and meaningful. If your only aim is to find the object then I suppose the search would be futile - a sad commentary to say the least. But, again, if you read my post you will find that the central message is more relative to the search itself. My personal objective has always been to don an awarness of the elements around me as I make this journey. In this instance the search will not be futile, but enriching.
Quote from: Truthseeker on April 18, 2012, 11:58:01 AM
Quote from: En_Route on April 18, 2012, 11:45:00 AM
Setting off for Alaska knowing you can never get there is a slightly different matter. I'm also not sure what "Truth" it is that you are seeking and what you would do with it if you ever did find it. Again truth is not an abstraction or some mystical holy grail waiting to be uncovered (or secreted eternally from human gaze in your version)- it is a quality attributable to observations about the world which are either true or not-true.
Whether we agree here or not is immaterial. My point rests is the fact that the search, regardless if the object is found or not will be quite fulfilling and meaningful. If your only aim is to find the object then I suppose the search would be futile - a sad commentary to say the least. But, again, if you read my post you will find that the central message is more relative to the search itself. My personal objective has always been to don an awarness of the elements around me as I make this journey. In this instance the search will not be futile, but enriching.
Searching for something you can't find isn't searching stricto sensu. And until you've "searched" in this rather rarefied sense you've no way of knowing whether or not the exercise will be fulfilling or enriching. It could turn out be a forlorn cul-de-sac and in your old age you might look back ruefully to those wasted years spent chasing chimera and wallowing in solipsistic new-agery.
Quote from: En_Route on April 18, 2012, 12:51:23 PM
Searching for something you can't find isn't searching stricto sensu. And until you've "searched" in this rather rarefied sense you've no way of knowing whether or not the exercise will be fulfilling or enriching. It could turn out be a forlorn cul-de-sac and in your old age you might look back ruefully to those wasted years spent chasing chimera and wallowing in solipsistic new-agery.
Wow! All I can say here is that I vehemently disagree with every single sentence. This last post of your's says to me that you and I are to far apart on this issue for any type of coming together. No big deal. What a boring place the world would be if we all agreed and saw things the same way. Thanks for you perspective.
QuoteRe: How Do We Know Something Is True?
Your betters will tell you.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on April 18, 2012, 04:14:27 PM
QuoteRe: How Do We Know Something Is True?
Your betters will tell you.
When I want your opinion I'll give it to you! :D
Read The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch. Based on what you've written about your search for meaning, I think you would like it very much.
His premise is that we create knowledge by developing what he calls good explanations.
Through conjecture, criticism, and testing, our explanations get better and better, but never reach a final truth. Our knowledge will always be imperfect. We are always at the beginning of infinity.
From the final chapter of the book - science moves from misconception to better misconception. So Einstein's misconception of gravity improved on Newton's misconception, which improved on Kepler's.
Deutsch, I think, would say that we can be confident we are approaching (but never reaching) truth when our explanations improve over time.
Quote from: ablprop on April 20, 2012, 01:27:41 AM
Read The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch.
His premise is that we create knowledge by developing what he calls good explanations.
Through conjecture, criticism, and testing, our explanations get better and better, but never reach a final truth. Our knowledge will always be imperfect. We are always at the beginning of infinity....
-ever closer approximation
-ever higher resolution
for intent and purpose on the day it does suffice
essential though is the assurance that it is verifiable, corresponding and attested, communal "make believe"
as good old Soc put it, know that you know nothing, possibly because there may be nothing to be known apart from nothingness
Quote from: Truthseeker on February 28, 2012, 11:57:53 AMI, in my finite mind, could not possibly KNOW the truth. I often wonder what life would be like if I could obtain absolute truth in its purest form.....
Your thoughts?
This is mysticism, don't ya' think? "Absolute Truth in its purest form?" - this sounds like Plato's Theory of Forms.