Happy Atheist Forum

Religion => Creationism/Intelligent Design => Topic started by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 17, 2019, 03:37:28 PM

Title: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 17, 2019, 03:37:28 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/16/us/flat-earth-conference-conspiracy-theories-scli-intl/index.html

This appears to be primarily an outgrowth of complete distrust of those in authority.  Everyone is lying to us - a massive conspiracy is at work.  Hard to see how this happens.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Tank on November 17, 2019, 04:09:26 PM
It's a denial of science as the only valid method of describing reality. It is the result of poor education that that values myths over facts. It is caused in part by apparent equality of one persons opinion over another.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Old Seer on November 17, 2019, 04:40:20 PM
Wouldn't it be obvious that orbiting satellites show clearly that the planet is a globe. Wouldn't orbiting a pancake shape show the other side. One must conclude that the flat earth floks have no physicists to advise them.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: No one on November 17, 2019, 04:48:12 PM
People are stupid.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Siz on November 17, 2019, 05:45:56 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on November 17, 2019, 04:40:20 PM
Wouldn't it be obvious that orbiting satellites show clearly that the planet is a globe. Wouldn't orbiting a pancake shape show the other side. One must conclude that the flat earth floks have no physicists to advise them.

Elon Musk: Why is there no Flat Mars Society?
Flerfer: Hi Elon, thanks for the question. Unlike the Earth, Mars has been observed to be round,"

FSM help us...
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Icarus on November 17, 2019, 10:13:57 PM
I have a rather large lithograph, about 20 x 30 inches, of the flat earth.  It is a sea scene with ships of the 1700s era falling off the edge.  There is one lifeboat like vessel with an outboard motor. That little boat is desperately trying not to be washed off the edge.  It is sort of hilarious

The picture has been popular for many years.  The name of the painting is: I Told You So.  My copy of the pic is nicely framed and hangs proudly on the wall behind a toilet (loo?) An appropriate place in my belief.   You can get your own copy at Amazon, I suspect.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 17, 2019, 10:30:11 PM
flat earth theory is really an interestiung topic to make people think abou what they really know, and what they believe based on what people tell them.

not solipsism.

i have only ever met one man who couild actually prove that th eearth was round, right there, in front of you. he was a sailor, and could show you with a sextant that stellar azimuths were consistent with a spherical earth but not a flat one.

except now i'm wondering about a flat earth and a curved sky.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 17, 2019, 10:36:21 PM
No one is able to personally prove all the things mankind knows. We rely on experts, and we rely on the experts peers to keep them in line.  When people lose faith in experts, then we are in trouble. That's what has happened with Trump - he undermines our agencies and institutions who actually have knowledge, thus encouraging idiocy and conspiracy theories.  Sign of the times. 
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 17, 2019, 10:39:06 PM
well, see, that's the point.

what do physicists and priests have in common?

cassocks and holy writings and lots of people who believe them because they're the experts.

they're not very different to most people.

Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: jumbojak on November 17, 2019, 11:24:49 PM
When an acceptable response to questions about how the Earth could be shown to be flat is, "Look into it" we are in trouble as a species. And that's very common.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Bluenose on November 17, 2019, 11:29:07 PM
The flat earth brigade amuse me no end.  The lines of evidence they have to wilfully ignore in order hold to their "theory" are endless.  As a professional navigator in in a previous life I know from actual experience that charts (maps for all you land-lubbers) simply would not work the way they do if the world was not (more or less) spherical.  When navigating, you have to take into account the properties of the particular type of chart you are using, especially the inherent distortions built in to the particular projection you are using, or you will not end up where you intend to.  Each type of chart has its own peculiarities and its own best uses.  These, for me at least, are something that is embedded in my soul.  It's almost as if I can feel the way the curved surface of the Earth is represented on the flat surface of the chart.  The idea that the Earth is actually flat is a complete nonsense to me.

edit
----
For some cartographical fun, look up the difference between the following projections (there are many others): Mercator's, Transverse Mercator's, Conic, Lambert's conic conformal, Polar
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Magdalena on November 18, 2019, 02:31:12 AM
Quote from: Icarus on November 17, 2019, 10:13:57 PM
I have a rather large lithograph, about 20 x 30 inches, of the flat earth.  It is a sea scene with ships of the 1700s era falling off the edge.  There is one lifeboat like vessel with an outboard motor. That little boat is desperately trying not to be washed off the edge.  It is sort of hilarious

The picture has been popular for many years.  The name of the painting is: I Told You So.  My copy of the pic is nicely framed and hangs proudly on the wall behind a toilet (loo?) An appropriate place in my belief.   You can get your own copy at Amazon, I suspect.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theagitator.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fflat-earth.jpg&hash=829291d59d24229fc6f73454bdbdd6f98183df2a)
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 18, 2019, 11:53:03 AM
yez.

the flat earth theory depends on several things, most unlikely is the necessity for a massive conspiracy to falsify photography and space flight and so on.

but what interests me is that most people accept theories completely on faith, but reject contradictory theoriez that are equally founded on faith.

i am not a navigator, but its easy to zee tbat the usual "proofs" of round earth theory tbat one sees prezented are complete nonsense, but are trotted out as if they were . . . holy writ.

for example, search google for "proofs that the earth is round" i did and have opened the first search rezult, a blind test:

https://www.google.com/amp/crosstalk.cell.com/blog/seven-ways-to-prove-earth-is-round%3fhs_amp=true

take the first three proofs of the seven presented.

1. watch a ship zail off to zea, if the flag zikz below the horizon last the earth is round. if you have ever actually done this, you will find that sometimes the ship sinkz below tbe horizon and sometimez it doesnt, based on temperature interfaces and refraction. the exceptions are generally ignored, which renders this method inconcluzive.

2. watch a lunar eclipse. they zay if the shadow is round, the earth is a sphere. except a flat earth shaped like a disc will also cast a round shadow, and a disc-earth is the common model.

3. climb a tree and you can see more earth than if you were on the ground. this is true. but i have never seen a tree tall enough to give a definitive answer about a spherical earth, and it neglects the disappearance of distant objects due to atmospheric haze. like many, this last proof is just a prediction from tbeory that nobody has ever done.

so just these first three pieces of ordinary evidence dont actually prove anything, as they are dezcribed in this very firzt search rezult.  but they are commonly held to be definitive.


Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Tank on November 18, 2019, 01:05:55 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on November 17, 2019, 04:40:20 PM
Wouldn't it be obvious that orbiting satellites show clearly that the planet is a globe. Wouldn't orbiting a pancake shape show the other side. One must conclude that the flat earth floks have no physicists to advise them.

Satellites are not real. They are a construct of the Devil.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Dark Lightning on November 18, 2019, 07:37:11 PM
Satellites are actually spots on the celestial sphere made by powerful light sources powered by prehistoric gargantuan hamsters. The shape of the satellite is based on how the various sources are pointed, to make a pattern. The stars that appear to be moving are actually kids using laser pointers, sweeping them slowly across said sphere.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Tank on November 18, 2019, 09:21:51 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on November 18, 2019, 07:37:11 PM
Satellites are actually spots on the celestial sphere made by powerful light sources powered by prehistoric gargantuan hamsters. The shape of the satellite is based on how the various sources are pointed, to make a pattern. The stars that appear to be moving are actually kids using laser pointers, sweeping them slowly across said sphere.

Gerbils not hamsters!!!
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Sandra Craft on November 18, 2019, 09:50:35 PM
Quote from: Bluenose on November 17, 2019, 11:29:07 PM
The flat earth brigade amuse me no end.  The lines of evidence they have to wilfully ignore in order hold to their "theory" are endless.  As a professional navigator in in a previous life I know from actual experience that charts (maps for all you land-lubbers) simply would not work the way they do if the world was not (more or less) spherical.  When navigating, you have to take into account the properties of the particular type of chart you are using, especially the inherent distortions built in to the particular projection you are using, or you will not end up where you intend to.  Each type of chart has its own peculiarities and its own best uses.  These, for me at least, are something that is embedded in my soul.  It's almost as if I can feel the way the curved surface of the Earth is represented on the flat surface of the chart.  The idea that the Earth is actually flat is a complete nonsense to me.

edit
----
For some cartographical fun, look up the difference between the following projections (there are many others): Mercator's, Transverse Mercator's, Conic, Lambert's conic conformal, Polar

Reading about why flat Earthers become flat Earthers, I read over and over about how a spherical Earth and immense universe (possibly multiverse) made them feel small, insignificant, out of control and frightened.  Basically the idea of a flat Earth at the center of a tiny universe was comforting.  Small wonder to me so many flat Earthers are religious since the need for comfort is also the basis there.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 18, 2019, 10:16:44 PM
flat earth satellites orbit above the flat earth in the same way that the sun doez, i think, with eccentricitiez added to account for peculiar epicyclez and such.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/XEDgcRkFGyTKgdJD9t.gif)

herez a better animation of spotlight sun, with some objections

http://www.nmsr.org/flatter.htm
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Bluenose on November 18, 2019, 10:58:14 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on November 18, 2019, 11:53:03 AM
yez.

the flat earth theory depends on several things, most unlikely is the necessity for a massive conspiracy to falsify photography and space flight and so on.

but what interests me is that most people accept theories completely on faith, but reject contradictory theoriez that are equally founded on faith.

i am not a navigator, but its easy to zee tbat the usual "proofs" of round earth theory tbat one sees prezented are complete nonsense, but are trotted out as if they were . . . holy writ.

for example, search google for "proofs that the earth is round" i did and have opened the first search rezult, a blind test:

https://www.google.com/amp/crosstalk.cell.com/blog/seven-ways-to-prove-earth-is-round%3fhs_amp=true

take the first three proofs of the seven presented.

1. watch a ship zail off to zea, if the flag zikz below the horizon last the earth is round. if you have ever actually done this, you will find that sometimes the ship sinkz below tbe horizon and sometimez it doesnt, based on temperature interfaces and refraction. the exceptions are generally ignored, which renders this method inconcluzive.

2. watch a lunar eclipse. they zay if the shadow is round, the earth is a sphere. except a flat earth shaped like a disc will also cast a round shadow, and a disc-earth is the common model.

3. climb a tree and you can see more earth than if you were on the ground. this is true. but i have never seen a tree tall enough to give a definitive answer about a spherical earth, and it neglects the disappearance of distant objects due to atmospheric haze. like many, this last proof is just a prediction from tbeory that nobody has ever done.

so just these first three pieces of ordinary evidence dont actually prove anything, as they are dezcribed in this very firzt search rezult.  but they are commonly held to be definitive.

1 I served in the Royal Australian Navy and I observed other ships disappearing over the horizon on many occasions.  The refractive effects you describe are not particularly common and all they do is delay, slightly, the eventual disappearance.  They are entirely akin to mirages on a road on a hot day, although those look like pools of water, only a fool would use these mirages as proof that water is actually lying on the road.

2.  If the earth was disc shaped, then only on some occasions would the shadow be circular, most occasions it would be an ellipse and sometime a line (when the earth is edge on).  However since the shadow is always a circle it is reasonable to conclude that the Earth is spherical (or close to it).

3. Except that instead of climbing a tree you could get in an aeroplane.  If the distance disappears because of haze why then is it possible to see for hundreds and even thousands of kilometres from a high flying aeroplane?  In the highest of all aeroplanes or even balloons like those used for the highest parachute jumps, you can actually see the curvature of the Earth.

None of your example stand up to close scrutiny.  You say you're not a navigator, this is obvious.  As I said before, compensating for the distortions of projecting the curved surface of the Earth onto a flat chart is one of the key problems that a navigator has to pay attention to in order to do their job.  I don't care what flat Earthers think  (they don't actually), the Earth is basically spherical.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 18, 2019, 11:27:47 PM


hi bluenose.

i don't believe in a flat earth.

however:


Quote from: Bluenose on November 18, 2019, 10:58:14 PM

1 I served in the Royal Australian Navy and I observed other ships disappearing over the horizon on many occasions.  The refractive effects you describe are not particularly common and all they do is delay, slightly, the eventual disappearance.  They are entirely akin to mirages on a road on a hot day, although those look like pools of water, only a fool would use these mirages as proof that water is actually lying on the road.

one contrary example falsifies the claim.

Quote
2.  If the earth was disc shaped, then only on some occasions would the shadow be circular, most occasions it would be an ellipse and sometime a line (when the earth is edge on).  However since the shadow is always a circle it is reasonable to conclude that the Earth is spherical (or close to it).

you are assuming a solar system that is inconsistent with the model. if i reject that assumption, the objection disappears.

Quote
3. Except that instead of climbing a tree you could get in an aeroplane.  If the distance disappears because of haze why then is it possible to see for hundreds and even thousands of kilometres from a high flying aeroplane?  In the highest of all aeroplanes or even balloons like those used for the highest parachute jumps, you can actually see the curvature of the Earth.

good point, and i agree.  we are also in agreement that the tree example is nonsense. why do people keep claiming that it proves something?

Quote
None of your example stand up to close scrutiny.  You say you're not a navigator, this is obvious.  As I said before, compensating for the distortions of projecting the curved surface of the Earth onto a flat chart is one of the key problems that a navigator has to pay attention to in order to do their job.  I don't care what flat Earthers think  (they don't actually), the Earth is basically spherical.

yes. i agree. but two of your three methods of proof don't prove anything. that's a 66 percent blind spot in this discussion, and is what my point is:

most people believe in things that are not proven, whether it's science or religion.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 18, 2019, 11:54:08 PM
i guess the last four are relevant.

Quote4. Travel through, or even within, different time zones
. . . In the event that you're not high enough, though, you can still experience the curvature of the earth another way. For example, if you were to fly all the way around the world, you'd find that it would be nighttime in part of the world and daytime in another part. In that way, the existence of time zones itself is proof that the Earth is round.

^^^spotlight sun accounts for this.

Quote5. Watch a sunset
Pick a nice spot from which you can watch a sunset (we'll call this point A). Ideally, you'd have a clear horizon in front of you, and behind you would be some sort of elevated point that you can quickly access (a hill, a building with at least two floors, or perhaps the aforementioned tree; we'll call this point B).

Watch the sunset from point A, and once the sun is out of sight, hurry on over to point B. With the added elevation provided by point B, you should be able to see the sun above the horizon. If Earth were flat, the sun would not be visible at any elevation once it had set. Because Earth is round, the sun will come back into your line of sight.

i am skeptical.

the sun subtemds 0.53 degrees. so it takes 1/720 of a day for it to set. thats 2 minutes. if i watch the sun set, and then run up a hill for one minute at the rate the sun sets-- which would expose half a solar diameter if the sun was stationaryr--, the top edge of the sun will be at the horizon, so i won't seeit. i am skeptical that i can run up a hill faster than the sun sets, but maybe i can. someone with better mathematics than me might figure this out.

i suppose you might accompliish this with a high speed elevator, but i have never come across anyone who has tested it, including the author of this particular website.

Quote
6. Measure shadows across the country
Pick two locations that are some distance apart (at least a couple hundred miles from each other and on the same meridian). Grab two sticks or dowels (or other objects) of equal length, two tape measures, and a friend. Each of you will take one stick/dowel/object and one tape measure to your location, stick the object into the ground, and measure the shadow. (For accuracy, you should both take your measurements at the same time of day.)

On a flat Earth, the shadow that is cast by each would be of the same length. However, if you and your friend compare notes, you'll find that one shadow was longer than the other. That's because, due to the curvature of Earth, the sun will hit one part of Earth at one angle and another part of Earth at a different angle even at the same time of day.

This experiment has been around since about 240 B.C., when Greek mathematician Eratosthenes compared the shadows cast in both Syene—now Aswan, Egypt—and Alexandria on the summer solstice. Eratosthenes had learned of a well in Syene where once a year on the summer solstice, the sun would illuminate the entire bottom of the well and tall buildings and other objects would not cast a shadow. However, he noticed that shadows were being cast on the summer solstice in Alexandria, so he measured the angle of the shadow and found it to be an angle of about 7.2°.

this last one is pure nonsense. shadows along the same meridian on a flat earth will vary in length just like on a round earth.

the author is also confused about eratosthenes as well. erastothenes didn't prove the earth to be round, he assumed it to be so that he could measure a circumference.

finally,

Quote7. Google "International Space Station photos"
Seriously, just look at some of the amazing photos you'll find.

can't say anything about this. the only way for this to be false is the secret giant conspiracy.

but i think it's pretty clear that most people believe the earth to be round based on something other than direct evidence. out of these seven, some display an ignorance of flat earth theory, and some are just plain wrong.

many are proofs that could be done, but will not be done, because the flat earth skeptic has a belief system that is immune to the need for testing.


Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 19, 2019, 04:18:28 PM
wait here's the answer

lol

(https://i.imgur.com/so2iumYl.png)
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Magdalena on November 19, 2019, 07:10:11 PM
^^^  :snicker:
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Bluenose on November 19, 2019, 09:32:56 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on November 18, 2019, 11:27:47 PM


hi bluenose.

i don't believe in a flat earth.


Oh, I understand that.  I assumed we were engaging in a discussion of the "proofs" posited by flat Earthers

Quote

however:


Quote from: Bluenose on November 18, 2019, 10:58:14 PM

1 I served in the Royal Australian Navy and I observed other ships disappearing over the horizon on many occasions.  The refractive effects you describe are not particularly common and all they do is delay, slightly, the eventual disappearance.  They are entirely akin to mirages on a road on a hot day, although those look like pools of water, only a fool would use these mirages as proof that water is actually lying on the road.

one contrary example falsifies the claim.

Maybe I'm a bit thick, but what example falsifies which claim?

Quote

Quote
2.  If the earth was disc shaped, then only on some occasions would the shadow be circular, most occasions it would be an ellipse and sometime a line (when the earth is edge on).  However since the shadow is always a circle it is reasonable to conclude that the Earth is spherical (or close to it).

you are assuming a solar system that is inconsistent with the model. if i reject that assumption, the objection disappears.

Again, which model are you talking about?   I am talking about the solar system as it actually exists.

Quote

Quote
3. Except that instead of climbing a tree you could get in an aeroplane.  If the distance disappears because of haze why then is it possible to see for hundreds and even thousands of kilometres from a high flying aeroplane?  In the highest of all aeroplanes or even balloons like those used for the highest parachute jumps, you can actually see the curvature of the Earth.

good point, and i agree.  we are also in agreement that the tree example is nonsense. why do people keep claiming that it proves something?

Who knows, why do conspiracy theorists of any ilk claim the nonsense they do?

Quote

Quote
None of your example stand up to close scrutiny.  You say you're not a navigator, this is obvious.  As I said before, compensating for the distortions of projecting the curved surface of the Earth onto a flat chart is one of the key problems that a navigator has to pay attention to in order to do their job.  I don't care what flat Earthers think  (they don't actually), the Earth is basically spherical.

yes. i agree. but two of your three methods of proof don't prove anything. that's a 66 percent blind spot in this discussion, and is what my point is:

most people believe in things that are not proven, whether it's science or religion.

I did not claim to prove anything, I offered evidence.  Big difference.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 19, 2019, 10:01:23 PM
Get on a ship, follow the equator, going around continents as you meet them, and tell me where you end up.  It's round - or perhaps banana shaped. 
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 19, 2019, 10:23:56 PM
hi bluenose

Quote from: Bluenose on November 19, 2019, 09:32:56 PM
Maybe I'm a bit thick, but what example falsifies which claim?

in any assertion of the truth of a singular condition, if there are exceptions to the condition, it is not demonstrated to be true. you agree that ships do not always sink below the horizon as the simple model i quoted predicts. that is the example of an exception to the rule. therefore that simple model has been falsified.

regarding the round shadow on the moon during an eclipse:

Quote from: Bluenose on November 19, 2019, 09:32:56 PM
Again, which model are you talking about?   I am talking about the solar system as it actually exists.

a flat earth can cast a round shadow. that's all i need to point out to refute the argument.

Quote from: Bluenose on November 19, 2019, 09:32:56 PM
Quote
we are also in agreement that the tree example is nonsense. why do people keep claiming that it proves something?

Who knows, why do conspiracy theorists of any ilk claim the nonsense they do?

yes. that is the point of our conversation.

Quote from: Bluenose on November 19, 2019, 09:32:56 PM
Quote

most people believe in things that are not proven, whether it's science or religion.

I did not claim to prove anything, I offered evidence.  Big difference.

you offered evidence for the appearance of a round earth from an airplane, which is absolutely conclusive, in my opinion. but your evidence for the other two proofs was insufficient.

that's only one for three.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 19, 2019, 10:37:37 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 19, 2019, 10:01:23 PM
Get on a ship, follow the equator, going around continents as you meet them, and tell me where you end up.  It's round - or perhaps banana shaped.

here's a common view of the equator on the flat earth, ecurb:

(https://flatgeocentricearth.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/img_7509.jpg)

if i travel around the flat earth along the equator, i will return to the same place i started. this is the same for either a flat or a round earth.

one thing i've found that flat earthers won't talk about is to what happens when you calculate the distance between two points at the same latitude north of the equator with a distance between two points at the corresponding same latitude south of the equator. obviously rulers are longer as you go south.

that would be super easy to do, but nobody does.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 19, 2019, 11:42:03 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on November 19, 2019, 10:37:37 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 19, 2019, 10:01:23 PM
Get on a ship, follow the equator, going around continents as you meet them, and tell me where you end up.  It's round - or perhaps banana shaped.

here's a common view of the equator on the flat earth, ecurb:

(https://flatgeocentricearth.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/img_7509.jpg)

if i travel around the flat earth along the equator, i will return to the same place i started. this is the same for either a flat or a round earth.

one thing i've found that flat earthers won't talk about is to what happens when you calculate the distance between two points at the same latitude north of the equator with a distance between two points at the corresponding same latitude south of the equator. obviously rulers are longer as you go south.

that would be super easy to do, but nobody does.

OK, then follow the International Dateline and go the other way.  You also end up at the same place, but not if it's a flat earth. 
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Icarus on November 20, 2019, 12:11:47 AM
Bluenose referred to his experience when he observed other ships disappearing over the horizon. I cannot dispute that.  What was really happening is that those other ships were sailing off the edge of the flat earth.  ;D
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 20, 2019, 12:55:02 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 19, 2019, 11:42:03 PM
OK, then follow the International Dateline and go the other way.  You also end up at the same place, but not if it's a flat earth.

the international dateline just connects the north to the south pole. do you mean a meridian?

(https://cf.ydcdn.net/latest/images/main/A5primemeridian-rev.jpg)
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 20, 2019, 01:00:26 AM
Quote from: Icarus on November 20, 2019, 12:11:47 AM
Bluenose referred to his experience when he observed other ships disappearing over the horizon. I cannot dispute that.  What was really happening is that those other ships were sailing off the edge of the flat earth.  ;D

i have never heard of that, but it makes an odd kind of sense. wouldn't work with these, though:

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/16/article-0-129FC49E000005DC-904_634x384.jpg)

Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 20, 2019, 01:36:02 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on November 20, 2019, 01:00:26 AM
Quote from: Icarus on November 20, 2019, 12:11:47 AM
Bluenose referred to his experience when he observed other ships disappearing over the horizon. I cannot dispute that.  What was really happening is that those other ships were sailing off the edge of the flat earth.  ;D

i have never heard of that, but it makes an odd kind of sense. wouldn't work with these, though:

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/16/article-0-129FC49E000005DC-904_634x384.jpg)

The Flying Dutchman.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 20, 2019, 02:52:46 AM
fata morgana, i think. what bluenose was talking about.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Bluenose on November 20, 2019, 03:31:21 AM
What I said about ships disappearing below the horizon was that the phenomenon you referred to only delayed their disappearance, it does not stop it.  Thus my observation was not falsified.  Please do not misquote me, it pisses me off.

And as for the flat Earth sometimes casting a circular shadow, I said that in my original post on the subject.  However I also said that it would not always cast a circular shadow a point you conveniently overlooked.  Again, please be more careful with what you claim I said, I do not appreciate being subject to straw man arguments, the flat Earthers and creationists do that more than enough for my taste.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 20, 2019, 03:40:35 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on November 20, 2019, 12:55:02 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 19, 2019, 11:42:03 PM
OK, then follow the International Dateline and go the other way.  You also end up at the same place, but not if it's a flat earth.

the international dateline just connects the north to the south pole. do you mean a meridian?

(https://cf.ydcdn.net/latest/images/main/A5primemeridian-rev.jpg)

Yeah, just keep going around.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 20, 2019, 04:02:07 PM
hi bluenose

Quote from: Bluenose on November 20, 2019, 03:31:21 AM
What I said about ships disappearing below the horizon was that the phenomenon you referred to only delayed their disappearance, it does not stop it.  Thus my observation was not falsified.  Please do not misquote me, it pisses me off.

my apologies. what i should have zaid was that you had lozt zight of the subject under discussion, and so your comment was not falsified, it was irrelevant. my mistake.

Quote
And as for the flat Earth sometimes casting a circular shadow, I said that in my original post on the subject.  However I also said that it would not always cast a circular shadow a point you conveniently overlooked.  Again, please be more careful with what you claim I said, I do not appreciate being subject to straw man arguments, the flat Earthers and creationists do that more than enough for my taste.

bluenose, let me zuggest an experiment which will help you understand the zubject matter. go downtown, locate a bakery, go inside, and purchase a large baked pie. i suggest a blueberry pie.

take it out on the sidewalk and turn, facing the windowz. arrange yourself so that your reflection in the window is clear. now hold the blueberry pie in your right hand, and then smack the pie into your face. carefully extract the pie pan, leaving the contentz of the pie behind, and extend your arm, holding the pie pan at a right angle to the line between your face and the center of the pie pan.

now imagine that the shop window is the zun, the pie pan is the flat earth, your head is the moon, and the imprint of the pie on your face is the shadow of the flat earth. the shadow of the flat earth in this scenario is always round, just like the imprint of the blueberry pie on your face. alwayz. no exceptionz.

now you are suggesting that the pie pan will not always leave a round mass of blueberries on your face. and if you smack your face with the pie on edge, or at an angle, you would be right. feel free to test this and report back. but i never said that the pie—or the orientation of the flat earth—would vary in any particular way, much less the onez you require. you generated the exceptionz yourself, and then stated that the model fails because it didn't account for an exception that is not in the model.

zo there we are. as i asserted, a single example of how a flat earth can cast a round shadow is enough to indicate that a model exists in which that situation can be normative. you are free to construct other modelz in which that does not occur, but doing so says nothing about the validity of what we were discuzsing.

but thank you


Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 20, 2019, 04:17:32 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 20, 2019, 03:40:35 PM
Yeah, just keep going around.

that would certainly work, if the earth were round. but here's another shape that this method works for as well:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webdesign.org%2Fimg_articles%2F11583%2F40000000.jpg&hash=f525b215ab5fbffeec736ccf143285694bb49cf0)

take this model of the earth, and travel on a the same meridian continuously. you will return to the same spot after travelling some 28,000 miles. yet the earth here is not round, so the method does not prove it to be.

more importantly, i think you've touched on what i pointed out earlier in this discussion, which is that much of the "evidence" people cite for the round earth is not actually evidence, but rather predictions from the theory. until the predictions are successfully tested, they don't become evidence.

and i've never met anybody who has traveled around the world along a meridian, so until someone does and reports his findings, that line of proof is a pie not yet fully baked.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 20, 2019, 04:36:46 PM
shoot, ecurb, i almost forgot.

the common reasoning for why it's fruitless to try to follow a meridian around the globe is due to the curious nature of antarctica:

(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/3iBaKtY4mF4D2VkiYJg5AZ-1024-80.jpg)

in this common depiction, antarctica is made up of a ring around the rim of the earth, a wall o ice.

this predates game of thrones, by the way.

anyway, this ice wall not only holds the oceans in place, it prevents anybody from following a full meridian around the earth. so the test youre describing would be fruitless to attempt.

i've questioned flat earthers extensively on the ice wall, and many explain that it has a toxic influence which prevents investigators from returning. those that do return are members of the round earth conspiracy, with false records, false journals, and false photographs.

anyway, it's not only a flat earth that has an ice wall preventing a circumnavigation along a meridian:

(https://i.imgur.com/cHwwuYgl.png)
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Davin on November 20, 2019, 04:50:53 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xZIVzUuRfKrUE8/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 20, 2019, 09:28:46 PM
Billy Rubin, you seem to know a lot about Flat Earth, which is beginning to make me think that you are one.  Prove that you are not.

Michael Palin visited both the North and South Poles - he did not report seeing a wall of ice.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_to_Pole_with_Michael_Palin

Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 20, 2019, 09:29:23 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 20, 2019, 04:50:53 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xZIVzUuRfKrUE8/giphy.gif)

I'm convinced billy rubin is a flat earther.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Bluenose on November 20, 2019, 09:37:54 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on November 20, 2019, 04:02:07 PM
hi bluenose

Quote from: Bluenose on November 20, 2019, 03:31:21 AM
What I said about ships disappearing below the horizon was that the phenomenon you referred to only delayed their disappearance, it does not stop it.  Thus my observation was not falsified.  Please do not misquote me, it pisses me off.

my apologies. what i should have zaid was that you had lozt zight of the subject under discussion, and so your comment was not falsified, it was irrelevant. my mistake.

Quote
And as for the flat Earth sometimes casting a circular shadow, I said that in my original post on the subject.  However I also said that it would not always cast a circular shadow a point you conveniently overlooked.  Again, please be more careful with what you claim I said, I do not appreciate being subject to straw man arguments, the flat Earthers and creationists do that more than enough for my taste.

bluenose, let me zuggest an experiment which will help you understand the zubject matter. go downtown, locate a bakery, go inside, and purchase a large baked pie. i suggest a blueberry pie.

take it out on the sidewalk and turn, facing the windowz. arrange yourself so that your reflection in the window is clear. now hold the blueberry pie in your right hand, and then smack the pie into your face. carefully extract the pie pan, leaving the contentz of the pie behind, and extend your arm, holding the pie pan at a right angle to the line between your face and the center of the pie pan.

now imagine that the shop window is the zun, the pie pan is the flat earth, your head is the moon, and the imprint of the pie on your face is the shadow of the flat earth. the shadow of the flat earth in this scenario is always round, just like the imprint of the blueberry pie on your face. alwayz. no exceptionz.

now you are suggesting that the pie pan will not always leave a round mass of blueberries on your face. and if you smack your face with the pie on edge, or at an angle, you would be right. feel free to test this and report back. but i never said that the pie—or the orientation of the flat earth—would vary in any particular way, much less the onez you require. you generated the exceptionz yourself, and then stated that the model fails because it didn't account for an exception that is not in the model.

zo there we are. as i asserted, a single example of how a flat earth can cast a round shadow is enough to indicate that a model exists in which that situation can be normative. you are free to construct other modelz in which that does not occur, but doing so says nothing about the validity of what we were discuzsing.

but thank you

I have had enough of this.  You use irrelevant arguments and are completely disrespectful.  This is my last response to your nonsense.  To use the vernacular, you can eff off.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 20, 2019, 09:50:15 PM
http://crosstalk.cell.com/blog/seven-ways-to-prove-earth-is-round

https://www.http://crosstalk.cell.com/blog/seven-ways-to-prove-earth-is-roundpopsci.com/g00/10-ways-you-can-prove-earth-is-round/?i10c.ua=1&i10c.encReferrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8%3d&i10c.dv=16



Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: jumbojak on November 20, 2019, 09:52:34 PM
Why is it that new members, and even some older members, have to put up with this? Seriously, this is a good part of the reason why this forum is so inactive aside from the lounge. Billy was perfectly clear and reasonable in the arguments he made, and was belittled for it. When he bit back, just a tiny bit, he was told to fuck off.

That's a great way to keep this place alive guys. Kudos.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Magdalena on November 21, 2019, 12:19:37 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on November 20, 2019, 09:52:34 PM
Why is it that new members, and even some older members, have to put up with this? Seriously, this is a good part of the reason why this forum is so inactive aside from the lounge. Billy was perfectly clear and reasonable in the arguments he made, and was belittled for it. When he bit back, just a tiny bit, he was told to fuck off.

That's a great way to keep this place alive guys. Kudos.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/eeOCVjeNd6oxy/source.gif)
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Icarus on November 21, 2019, 01:55:36 AM
Chill out for crise sake people.  Billy Rubin is being a comedian, that's all.  Me too when I said that ships were sailing off the edge. A little humor please.

There are just about none of us who actually entertain the notion of flat earth.  It is all a big ass joke on the knotheads who believe in conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 21, 2019, 03:19:39 AM
Hmm...I have yet to read this entire thread but all I will say for now is this:

Flat-Earth 'theories' are not valid models of observed reality, in totality. A scientific theory explains all observations as best it can, not simply one or two aspects while leaving out the rest. I don't think the reductionist approach applies here. You can't think of one alternative explanation for one phenomenon and say it proves the "theory" while leaving out all the other phenomenon better explained by the round Earth theory. The whole thing comes as a package and is better seen as a package.

And I won't even go into actual observations of the 3D round Earth, such as photographic evidence. That's just batshit crazy conspiracy theory right there.

Evolutionary Theory for instance. You could go bananas and say, "but god could have intentionally made every species' DNA look like they were connected in the great web of life, doesn't necessarily mean evolution actually happened!" How do we know evolution happens? Besides all the evidence dating back billions of years we see it happen. We've documented it. In addition, we have loads of geological evidence which corroborates biological findings. We have evidence from many different fields that give weight to an elegant explanation for how species and populations of organisms evolve over time.

Strip all that away and say that it was the devil planting bones in different geological strata just to mislead us, and I'll call you crazy. Sure it's internally consistent but it's just ridiculously absurd.

The same can be said for flat Earth explanations. Each one can seem internally consistent but that doesn't make it valid when contextualised in the big picture.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Davin on November 21, 2019, 02:36:35 PM
There's an alright documentary on NetFlix called "Behind the Curve" that follows some flat earthers as they try to prove that the earth is flat.

In one part, this guy places two boards with holes in them at exactly the same height. Then he uses the supposed incorrect spherical earth mathematics and puts them far enough apart that if a light was shone through one hole, a camera would not pick it up in the other. But since the earth is flat, he should totally be able to see the light.

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.


Then another part a guy buys a very expensive gyro, that he took in a plane. If the earth was flat, the gyro would not turn at all because the plane would not have to turn to match the curvature of the Earth.

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.


I think that some of these people are too far into it to be able to back out. It's better to be embarrassing I guess, than to feel embarrassed.

Edit: There were videos, but it looks like they've all been taken down... seems like the Flat Earthers don't want the truth of the spherical Earth to get out!
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Tank on November 21, 2019, 04:16:27 PM
Billy/Nick we are all on the same side here. There is no need whatsoever for any friction nor getting the hump over the smallest of perceived slights. Neither of you are 'flat earthers' so let's have a little better behaviour please.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 21, 2019, 09:06:34 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 20, 2019, 09:28:46 PM
Billy Rubin, you seem to know a lot about Flat Earth, which is beginning to make me think that you are one.  Prove that you are not.

Michael Palin visited both the North and South Poles - he did not report seeing a wall of ice.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_to_Pole_with_Michael_Palin

lol

palin is a genius.



no, ecurb. im not a flat earther. my checkered background includes a graduate degree in geology and a stint as a petroleum geologist, which pretty well prevents me from taking the flat earthers seriously. nonetheless, working through the interesting history of the question and reading the current apologies provides an excellent introduction to just what exactly science is, and what it is not. not everybody is clear on that.

and having said that, i did work with a mormon geophysicist who had no dificulty reconciling young earth theory with paleozoic stratigraphy. but he drank coors light on ice.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 21, 2019, 09:10:54 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on November 20, 2019, 09:52:34 PM
Why is it that new members, and even some older members, have to put up with this?


Quote from: Icarus on November 21, 2019, 01:55:36 AM
Chill out for crise sake people.  Billy Rubin is being a comedian, that's all.

nah. i think maybe i was being a bit too cheeky. but thank you both for the support.

bluenose, i apologiz for presuming on your good nature in this matter. i'll try to be more circumspect in the future.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on November 21, 2019, 09:42:36 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 21, 2019, 03:19:39 AM
Hmm...I have yet to read this entire thread but all I will say for now is this:

Flat-Earth 'theories' are not valid models of observed reality, in totality. A scientific theory explains all observations as best it can, not simply one or two aspects while leaving out the rest. I don't think the reductionist approach applies here. You can't think of one alternative explanation for one phenomenon and say it proves the "theory" while leaving out all the other phenomenon better explained by the round Earth theory. The whole thing comes as a package and is better seen as a package.

And I won't even go into actual observations of the 3D round Earth, such as photographic evidence. That's just batshit crazy conspiracy theory right there.

Evolutionary Theory for instance. You could go bananas and say, "but god could have intentionally made every species' DNA look like they were connected in the great web of life, doesn't necessarily mean evolution actually happened!" How do we know evolution happens? Besides all the evidence dating back billions of years we see it happen. We've documented it. In addition, we have loads of geological evidence which corroborates biological findings. We have evidence from many different fields that give weight to an elegant explanation for how species and populations of organisms evolve over time.

Strip all that away and say that it was the devil planting bones in different geological strata just to mislead us, and I'll call you crazy. Sure it's internally consistent but it's just ridiculously absurd.

The same can be said for flat Earth explanations. Each one can seem internally consistent but that doesn't make it valid when contextualised in the big picture.

silver, you've touched on the great achilles heel of the flat earth discussion. i suggest you visit the current platform and look it over:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5le9136c0bo2var1p5o4rcaki0;wwwRedirect

flat earthers fall into several categories.  the first group are the flat earth trolls, dilettantes who just want to provoke outrage. the second group is far more interesting. these are intelligent, engaged people--often physicists, chemists, or informed sophists, who take the flat earth theory and defend it--intelligently. these people will pick you up and throw you down very quickly if you try to debunk th etheory with anything other than hardcore empiricism. in fact, one of their continual points to skeptics is to ask, have you done the experiements, or are you just quoting conventional wisdom? the last group are th enutjobs, who really believe it. these range in skill, understanding, and point of view all over the map. there are very few of them.

anyway, your point about flat earth being concewrned mostly with small victories is well taken. if you're looking at ships disappearing over the horizon, there are explanations which can be cited-- refraction, wave height, bendy light. if youre concerned about gravity, there's universal acceleration that actually gives you weight. if you want to know the geometry behind the equinoxes, there are maps, diagrams, and calculations.

most any criticism of flat earth theory has a provisional answer. but there is no unified field theory, no evolutionary or tectonic paradigm that can explain everything at once. the model tha explains x is inconsistent with y, and y with z, and so on. there is some kind of an answer for everything, buit not for everything at once.

i'm personally interested in flat earth theory because i hear people quote me all sorts of bullshit that they claim explains away the flat earth. i linked to a single "refutation" earlier in this thread, and pointed out how the round earth apologetics in it were mostly insufficient to refute the theory.

the same criticism obtains for many other cosmologies that people take for granted-- the heliocentric solar system (ever read sherlock holmes's opinion of that? https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/291350-that-any-civilized-human-being-in-this-nineteenth-century-should), young earth/old earth (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Last_Thursdayism), or the skepticism that initially greeted plate tectonics or the theory of organic evolution.

the lesson for me is that people frequently just believe what they're told to believe, and become hostile to challenges. this is the same whether its religion, atheism, the fine tuning of the universe, or whether objects fall faster the heavier they are. for me, these fragile faith bubbles provide an irresistible attraction, although i gauge my persistence depending on circumstances.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Old Seer on June 04, 2020, 05:41:01 PM
If I was a flat earther I'd have to wonder if there's floks on the other side of the disk that makes the planet. Being on this side I can understand that gravity holds things on the surface. So, if I were on the other side would gravity hold me on the surface of that side. Hmmmm. Does anyone know if flat earthers think there's people or another world on the other side. Not having looked into the flat earth idea and always thinking it's absurd dismissed the idea out of hand. Did they ever claim there's another side to this flat disk of theirs and what would be on it.
If there's gravity somewhere below the disk rather than being a factor of the disk itself; the disk would get sucked onto a gravity hole somewhere. Or if the disk has gravity then there wouldn't be enough mass under one's feet to create the same gravity force and one wouldn't weigh as much as they do. Or, how thick do they say the disk is so there's a gravity equivalent. ??? The disk would have to be almost 8000 miles thick. I recall from pics I noted that the ocean is flowing over the edge. There shouldn't be water left on this side.  :-\
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Randy on June 04, 2020, 06:49:42 PM
Old Seer I read somewhere that the planet is constantly pushing upward at 9.8 meters per second giving the illusion of gravity. If that is the model they go by then there wouldn't be anything on the other side of the disk.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 04, 2020, 09:52:17 PM
bingo.

there is no such thing as gravity in the most popular flat earth model. what gives objects weight is the universal upwards acceleration of one gravity of the flat earth and its accompanying solar system.

the earth continues to accelerate forever at 1 g, but to an outside observer the velocity would appear to decrease. so the speed of light can never be reached.

the model gets vague when you look for a source of the energy behind the acceleration.

seer, antarctica holds the water in, as it consists of a circular ice wall around the rim of the earth.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Randy on June 05, 2020, 02:23:48 AM
I wonder why no one has tried to tunnel through the wall instead of going over it. It would be a scientific boon to find out what is on the other side. Surely there has to be enough of their ilk to chip in and launch an expedition.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Old Seer on June 05, 2020, 03:51:21 AM
Quote from: Randy on June 04, 2020, 06:49:42 PM
Old Seer I read somewhere that the planet is constantly pushing upward at 9.8 meters per second giving the illusion of gravity. If that is the model they go by then there wouldn't be anything on the other side of the disk.
If they think that we should be approaching the speed of light soon. Considering that we can't travel the speed of light we should have disintegrated by now. We also would have lost all the air by now also or it should be on the other side of the planet.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Randy on June 05, 2020, 03:56:09 AM
I don't recall what keeps the air from getting out. Is there supposed to be a dome?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Old Seer on June 05, 2020, 04:07:07 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 04, 2020, 09:52:17 PM
bingo.

there is no such thing as gravity in the most popular flat earth model. what gives objects weight is the universal upwards acceleration of one gravity of the flat earth and its accompanying solar system.

the earth continues to accelerate forever at 1 g, but to an outside observer the velocity would appear to decrease. so the speed of light can never be reached.

the model gets vague when you look for a source of the energy behind the acceleration.

seer, antarctica holds the water in, as it consists of a circular ice wall around the rim of the earth.
Well, thats what I mean, the absurdity of their thinking. The farthest distance from the center of the disk would be close to 4000 miles. Some one surely most have gone that far by now. Magellan should have went over the edge or came upon the ice wall.
I got into this because I came across a video on youtube where some scientific type claimed gravity is not a force. That seemed absurd to me (I suppose somehow that may be correct), and shortly after came here to see what's new and came to this subject and got to wondering what the flat earthers idea of gravity is all about.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Old Seer on June 05, 2020, 04:17:07 AM
Quote from: Randy on June 05, 2020, 03:56:09 AM
I don't recall what keeps the air from getting out. Is there supposed to be a dome?
Thats why I haven't cared to deal with this idea. so it's rather new to me even tho I've been aware of this since a teener. It's just as religions, there's always a way to make it work.

If there's a dome then where does it end. If one goes e or w one would have to see more stars or never get to the dome. I thought I would take the short route and now I'm thinking of looking over all the posts to see where You're all wrong. I don't think so.  ;D
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 05, 2020, 11:15:16 AM
Quote from: Randy on June 05, 2020, 02:23:48 AM
I wonder why no one has tried to tunnel through the wall instead of going over it. It would be a scientific boon to find out what is on the other side. Surely there has to be enough of their ilk to chip in and launch an expedition.

no one has ever been there.

this particular point is a sore spot with flat earthers, because it requirez them to invoke conspiracy. no one has ever visited the ice wall and returned. those that claim to have been to the south pole are mistaken or lying. in general southern hemisphere issues dont align well with customary flat earth theory, and people dont like to dizcuzs them.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 05, 2020, 11:20:29 AM
.
Quote from: Old Seer on June 05, 2020, 04:17:07 AM
Quote from: Randy on June 05, 2020, 03:56:09 AM
I don't recall what keeps the air from getting out. Is there supposed to be a dome?
Thats why I haven't cared to deal with this idea. so it's rather new to me even tho I've been aware of this since a teener. It's just as religions, there's always a way to make it work.

If there's a dome then where does it end. If one goes e or w one would have to see more stars or never get to the dome. I thought I would take the short route and now I'm thinking of looking over all the posts to see where You're all wrong. I don't think so.  ;D

the uzeful lesson about flat earth is that it reveals how much of what we think we know actually consizts of just trusting what  tell us.

if you cant prove it yourself then what you believe is faith, whether its a round earth or a lucky rabbits foot.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Randy on June 05, 2020, 11:49:21 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 05, 2020, 11:15:16 AM
Quote from: Randy on June 05, 2020, 02:23:48 AM
I wonder why no one has tried to tunnel through the wall instead of going over it. It would be a scientific boon to find out what is on the other side. Surely there has to be enough of their ilk to chip in and launch an expedition.

no one has ever been there.

this particular point is a sore spot with flat earthers, because it requirez them to invoke conspiracy. no one has ever visited the ice wall and returned. those that claim to have been to the south pole are mistaken or lying. in general southern hemisphere issues dont align well with customary flat earth theory, and people dont like to dizcuzs them.
No one? That sounds like a cop out or a bad B horror movie.
They tried. They visited. And then... they disappeared.
The Ice Wall - Coming this Christmas to a theater near you.


I can't remember why they said it was unapproachable. I found this quote from The Flat Earth Society.
QuoteIf now we sail with our backs continually to this central star, "Polaris," or the centre of the earth's surface, we shall arrive at another region of ice. Upon whatever meridian we sail, keeping the northern centre behind us, we are checked in our progress by vast and lofty cliffs of ice. If we turn to the right or to the left of our meridian, these icy barriers beset us during the whole of our passage. Hence, we have found that there is a great ebbing and flowing sea at the earth's centre; with a boundary wall of ice, nearly a hundred miles in thickness, and three thousand miles in circumference; that springing or projecting from this icy wall, irregular masses of land stretch out towards the south, where a desolate waste of turbulent waters surrounds the continents, and is itself engirdled by vast belts and packs of ice, bounded by immense frozen barriers, the lateral depth and extent of which are utterly unknown.
I emboldened the text about the southern wall. They don't seem to have a reason for not being able to explore it considering all the technology at their disposal.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Asmodean on June 05, 2020, 01:07:40 PM
It's them militaries from all them bad places, like Russia™ and The US Government™ what doesn't let them regular folks to go on a Antarctic cruise (https://www.polarcruises.com/antarctica) and because no-one even knows what a astrolabe is, and sextant sounds like something teenagers do on their mobile phones, and what with the GPS and GLONASS being some shadow government bullshit from them abovementioned ™s, it's absolutely impossible to determine where you are on such a cruise and that, my friends, is further proof that the Earth is flat.  :smilenod:

Trouble is, of course, that that theory does not stand up to even a slight touch of the Gillette Razor (Ba-dum-tissh*)

*Reference to Penn Jillette's interpretation of Hanlon's Razor in Penn and Teller: Bullshit. From memory, "Cockup before conspiracy. Teller prefers the French version; 'Voulez vou coucher avec moi ce soir?'"
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 05, 2020, 01:19:26 PM
Quote from: Randy on June 05, 2020, 11:49:21 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 05, 2020, 11:15:16 AM
Quote from: Randy on June 05, 2020, 02:23:48 AM
I wonder why no one has tried to tunnel through the wall instead of going over it. It would be a scientific boon to find out what is on the other side. Surely there has to be enough of their ilk to chip in and launch an expedition.

no one has ever been there.

this particular point is a sore spot with flat earthers, because it requirez them to invoke conspiracy. no one has ever visited the ice wall and returned. those that claim to have been to the south pole are mistaken or lying. in general southern hemisphere issues dont align well with customary flat earth theory, and people dont like to dizcuzs them.
No one? That sounds like a cop out or a bad B horror movie.
They tried. They visited. And then... they disappeared.
The Ice Wall - Coming this Christmas to a theater near you.


I can't remember why they said it was unapproachable. I found this quote from The Flat Earth Society.
QuoteIf now we sail with our backs continually to this central star, "Polaris," or the centre of the earth's surface, we shall arrive at another region of ice. Upon whatever meridian we sail, keeping the northern centre behind us, we are checked in our progress by vast and lofty cliffs of ice. If we turn to the right or to the left of our meridian, these icy barriers beset us during the whole of our passage. Hence, we have found that there is a great ebbing and flowing sea at the earth's centre; with a boundary wall of ice, nearly a hundred miles in thickness, and three thousand miles in circumference; that springing or projecting from this icy wall, irregular masses of land stretch out towards the south, where a desolate waste of turbulent waters surrounds the continents, and is itself engirdled by vast belts and packs of ice, bounded by immense frozen barriers, the lateral depth and extent of which are utterly unknown.
I emboldened the text about the southern wall. They don't seem to have a reason for not being able to explore it considering all the technology at their disposal.

one expkanation is that its poisonous. but ive never been there, so for all i personally can know from direct evidence, they ckuld be right.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 05, 2020, 01:23:35 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on June 05, 2020, 01:07:40 PM
It's them militaries from all them bad places, like Russia™ and The US Government™ what doesn't let them regular folks to go on a Antarctic cruise (https://www.polarcruises.com/antarctica) and because no-one even knows what a astrolabe is, and sextant sounds like something teenagers do on their mobile phones, and what with the GPS and GLONASS being some shadow government bullshit from them abovementioned ™s, it's absolutely impossible to determine where you are on such a cruise and that, my friends, is further proof that the Earth is flat.  :smilenod:

its not proof the earth is flat so much as it makes it obviouz that the average person is unable to tell, and has to rely on indirect evidence to conclude sphericity.

i know of only one or two methods that i could use, unaided, to disprove the flat earth. azide from those, im like most everybody else and can only recjte the creed.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Randy on June 05, 2020, 01:55:49 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 05, 2020, 01:19:26 PM
Quote from: Randy on June 05, 2020, 11:49:21 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 05, 2020, 11:15:16 AM
Quote from: Randy on June 05, 2020, 02:23:48 AM
I wonder why no one has tried to tunnel through the wall instead of going over it. It would be a scientific boon to find out what is on the other side. Surely there has to be enough of their ilk to chip in and launch an expedition.

no one has ever been there.

this particular point is a sore spot with flat earthers, because it requirez them to invoke conspiracy. no one has ever visited the ice wall and returned. those that claim to have been to the south pole are mistaken or lying. in general southern hemisphere issues dont align well with customary flat earth theory, and people dont like to dizcuzs them.
No one? That sounds like a cop out or a bad B horror movie.
They tried. They visited. And then... they disappeared.
The Ice Wall - Coming this Christmas to a theater near you.


I can't remember why they said it was unapproachable. I found this quote from The Flat Earth Society.
QuoteIf now we sail with our backs continually to this central star, "Polaris," or the centre of the earth's surface, we shall arrive at another region of ice. Upon whatever meridian we sail, keeping the northern centre behind us, we are checked in our progress by vast and lofty cliffs of ice. If we turn to the right or to the left of our meridian, these icy barriers beset us during the whole of our passage. Hence, we have found that there is a great ebbing and flowing sea at the earth's centre; with a boundary wall of ice, nearly a hundred miles in thickness, and three thousand miles in circumference; that springing or projecting from this icy wall, irregular masses of land stretch out towards the south, where a desolate waste of turbulent waters surrounds the continents, and is itself engirdled by vast belts and packs of ice, bounded by immense frozen barriers, the lateral depth and extent of which are utterly unknown.
I emboldened the text about the southern wall. They don't seem to have a reason for not being able to explore it considering all the technology at their disposal.

one expkanation is that its poisonous. but ive never been there, so for all i personally can know from direct evidence, they ckuld be right.
How would they know it was poisonous if no one whose been there ever returned?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 05, 2020, 03:19:19 PM
lol

because.

the ice wall is really insolvable, though, randy. ive never seen it or not seen it, and so there isnt anything there to assert or dispute except hearsay.

thats whats interesting about human credulity:

the earth is flat. antarctica is just an icewall.

no its not. antarctica is a continent.

ever been there?

no, but i saw it on a national geographic special.

well, i saw the icewall in a photo from scotts expedition.

thatwas a glacier calving icebergs, not an icewall.

how do you know that?

i read about it in a geography book.

lotta books, huh.

yes. i believe what i read. just not the books i already disagree with.


Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Randy on June 05, 2020, 06:56:47 PM
Here's another hypothesis as to the difficulty, nigh impossibility, of getting to the ice wall.

QuoteHow far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply. All we at present know is, that snow and hail, howling winds, and indescribable storms and hurricanes prevail; and that in every direction "human ingress is barred by unsealed escarpments of perpetual ice," extending farther than eye or telescope can penetrate, and becoming lost in gloom and darkness.

I got this and the last quote I mentioned from here: https://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za22.htm (https://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za22.htm)
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 05, 2020, 10:17:45 PM
if youre reading rowbotham youre gtetting to the foundations of modern flat earth theoory for sure.

robotham was a strange kind of emiricist, which is what the zetitic sort of means. it refers to inquiry by going from observations to theory, without looking for a hypothesis to test. so if all the observations that we have indicates that the earth is flat (and it looks flat), then the conclusion should be that it is flat.

a hard-core occams razor approach that skips falsification.

the problem was that rowbotham became wedded to the idea of a fat earth and persisted in it even after soe serious refutations, and this flaw continues among the flat earthers still.

its very similar to christian biblical creationism, but moreinteresting.

Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Randy on June 06, 2020, 12:19:59 AM
I studied Creationism in private school. They drilled it into our heads. I'm surprised they didn't teach a flat Earth since the bible seems to lead to one. Fortunately they didn't and I only had one thing I had to get out of my head.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 12:27:51 AM
what is there to teach besides chriztian scripture?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Randy on June 06, 2020, 12:40:25 AM
They still teach math, the other sciences, English, social studies, and so-on. They do pepper scriptures throughout the books. They have to teach evolution I think (it's been decades) but they water it down or teach why it is "false".

We taught ourselves. We had cubicles and P.A.C.E (Packet of Accelerated Christian Education) books that we progressed through at our own pace. We had whole sections of the bible to memorize by the end of the month. They made sure we were fully indoctrinated. We were even taught the sins of Rock & Roll.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 09:14:25 AM
i was specifically curious about creationism.

did you mean that they taught it as a specific field of earth history, or assumed it as part of everything else?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Randy on June 06, 2020, 02:11:43 PM
Let me see if I can tell this one straight. In any subject if it disagreed with biblical teachings it was "corrected" with scripture. The flood happened. The universe was created in six days.

I remember reconciling the time line with something along the lines of "with God a thousand days is as one". It's probably not accurate as I've strayed away from my teaching. Any way, I'm pretty sure it was assumed to be a part of everything else. They had to teach what was required to be accredited but that didn't mean they couldn't distort it.

It's a chapter in my life that I'm not proud of and have tried to bury under the real world.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 03:36:15 PM
therez nothing wrong with deciding that you were once wrong. i used to suspend belief in ways that i cannot justify anylonger. i consider it growth.

the thing about christian creationism iz that so many believers and skepticz approach the subject either attempting to reconcile it with science, or attempting to debunk it with zcience.. your school curriculum soundz like one of those.

that isnt possible. there is no biological, geological, or cosmological scientific paradigm that is consistent with a young earth starting from zero points.

but there is likewise no scientific theory that can debunk a young earth created in the likenezs of a young earth, functioning as it doez today.

when you start a clock, the handz have to point somewhere. theres no reason why they need to start out pointing at 12:00:00.00.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Randy on June 06, 2020, 04:31:50 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 03:36:15 PM
therez nothing wrong with deciding that you were once wrong. i used to suspend belief in ways that i cannot justify anylonger. i consider it growth.

the thing about christian creationism iz that so many believers and skepticz approach the subject either attempting to reconcile it with science, or attempting to debunk it with zcience.. your school curriculum soundz like one of those.

that isnt possible. there is no biological, geological, or cosmological scientific paradigm that is consistent with a young earth starting from zero points.

but there is likewise no scientific theory that can debunk a young earth created in the likenezs of a young earth, functioning as it doez today.

when you start a clock, the handz have to point somewhere. theres no reason why they need to start out pointing at 12:00:00.00.
I think a lot of it was pressured by the devil trying to trick us off the beaten path. We didn't have text books, we had workbooks that we wrote in and did tests. Well, the main test was done at a table near the right wall of the room and we couldn't bring our workbooks as references.

The workbooks would "show" how idiotic the fossil records were for instance. Dinosaur bones were placed there by the devil I think. There was always a scripture to ground us fast in ignorance.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: billy rubin on June 06, 2020, 07:39:10 PM
there is such a thing. i once had a creationist geology book that was quite reasonable except for the young earth part. geomorphology, petrology, sedimentology, all reasonable except for the accomodations to the timeline.

Title: Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
Post by: Old Seer on June 06, 2020, 08:28:41 PM
The whole idea is like telling a clergyman where his religion is wrong. First hand experience showed me that they'll admit they are wrong on some things but they don't know about what. If they don't know what they're wrong on then how do they know what all they're right on. The Pope has to approve what they're wrong about.