Happy Atheist Forum

It's hard to cut through to the truth (at least quickly) on stories like this. By trying to make all abortion practitioners seem evil, the über-Pro-Lifers have made it difficult to identify real corruption. What do you think?

Quote from: "url=http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/philly-doctor-case-shines-light-access-issues]Slate[/url]"]Disturbing news out of Philadelphia today: Abortion provider Dr. Kermit Gosnell and some of his staff members have been charged with eight counts of murder for the death of a patient and the alleged killing of seven babies. It was a little hard to find reliable information on Gosnell in the sea of anti-choice hysterics online, but it appears he was suspended for shady practices in February of last year, and these charges appear to be a follow-up from that first investigation.
Until more information is available, I would advise caution on jumping to conclusions about the charges of murder on the seven babies. The accusation that the babies were delivered and then killed with scissors resemble a fairly routine accusation leveled by anti-choicers at doctors who perform late term abortions. The anti-abortion, anti-contraception activist Jill Stanek rose to prominence accusing a hospital in Chicago of doing this; they were cleared of the charges. She has since accused many people, including Barack Obama, of supporting infanticide as a form of birth control. In other words, it's possible that Gosnell is guilty of the charges, but one should take the history of this particular claim into account before jumping to conclusions.
What seems to not be in dispute is that Gosnell ran a crappy clinic, something that anti-choicers have been using as propaganda to advocate against legal abortion. But it doesn't follow logically. There are 1,800 abortion providers in the country, and the vast majority run clean, professional operations. That there are a few shady characters in the bunch is unsurprising, and the pro-choice community exerts quite a bit of effort trying to improve the quality of abortion care, even under the remarkable constraints on provision.

I think abortions should be easy to get and free of charge... And that is pretty much the end of that line of thought  

Quote from: "Asmodean"I think abortions should be easy to get and free of charge... And that is pretty much the end of that line of thought  

They should probably be extended to the 90th trimester too

ONTOPIC:
You know what they say - it's always one bad apple that ruins the fun for everyone. Wonder how long it will be before these right-wing nutters try and take abortion back to court and use this as an example as to why abortion should be illegal.

OFFTOPIC:
I used to be against abortion because I thought it violated basic human rights.

But then one time I was in a crowded mall (not by choice), and I looked all around me and saw the real America. Fat, abnoxious, "douchebaggish" (for lack of a better word). By coincidence, I began to study population dynamics and demographics in college at almost the exact same time. Quite honestly, there are too damn many people in this world.

Now I think abortion should be required unless you and your partner can adequately pass an IQ test. Of course, your kid still might come out dumber than a box of rocks - but still - better to optimize his/her chances of not being a worthless moron, right?

QuoteNow I think abortion should be required unless you and your partner can adequately pass an IQ test. Of course, your kid still might come out dumber than a box of rocks - but still - better to optimize his/her chances of not being a worthless moron, right?

If you were running for some office, I'd probably vote for you on that alone  

Quote from: "Asmodean"If you were running for some office, I'd probably vote for you on that alone  

LOL...I'm sure I wouldn't last 2 days in a political race before some right-wing conservative found out my views and started calling me Stalin Jr. Or the anti-christ. Or both. In fact, seeing as how I live in the bible belt, I'm pretty sure I'd somehow end up with a negative # of votes.

Quote from: "terranus"I'm pretty sure I'd somehow end up with a negative # of votes.

Ah, but that's not counting the fact that you'd have Asmodean on your side... And he is known to... Well, cheat. So in all probability, the other guy would probably get a negative number  

This story has been all over our local news, but I haven't paid all too much attention. I have to say that I'm against late-term abortion, except when there's a medical need. If this doctor really did kill babies that exhibited signs of life, I think that's disgusting and he should be prosecuted. And I think the mothers who choose to go have a late term or partial birth abortion are either extremely ignorant or horribly selfish. It's a shame that the proper authorities were not doing their job in seeing that this clinic adhered to established standards and laws, because it makes all women's clinics look bad, which could prevent women in need from seeking medical treatment for fear of shoddy practice.

If the doctor ran a poor clinic that resulted in a death(of a patient) due to medical fuck-up, put him on trial for gross negligence or some such.

But don't let anybody use one dumbass doctor to torpedo all the other doctors who perform a, in most cases neccesary, medical procedure.

Quote from: "terranus"

Quote from: "Asmodean"If you were running for some office, I'd probably vote for you on that alone  ;)

The only abortions I'm against are the birth control abortions, but that's more out of a sense of waste.  There are so many people who can't have kids of their own that would love to adopt a baby, but the process is very expensive due to the high demand and low supply.  My wife and I are having extreme difficulty conceiving, and starting to think about adoption.  The idea that we can make SOME abortions illegal, and that it will solve problems, doesn't hold water.  Let's say a law was passed that right now both sides, in principle, can agree upon.  No late term abortions except in cases where it's the life of the mother, rape, or incest.  One day a 16 year old girl goes to a clinic in her 8th month crying because her boyfriend dumped just dumped her because he's not ready for a family.  She feels that she is too young for the responsibility and doesn't want to go through with the pregnancy (again, just because of my personal example, what a waste when some people have so much trouble conceiving).  A doctor or clinic who does not agree with the law may coach the girl to say she was raped.  She has the abortion, and the boyfriend goes to jail and has to register as a sex offender for a crime he didn't commit.  Perhaps the defense lawyer creates enough reasonable doubt based on the circumstances and he's acquitted... his reputation will still remain stained.  There will always be some shady abortion providers, just as there will be lawbreakers in every subsection of society.

Banning some abortions will not completely stop the ones we don't want, and will lead to more problems.  I wouldn't personally agree with banning all abortions, therefore, I think we have to keep them legal and do our best to educate women and girls completely so they can make the right decision for themselves.

QuoteAnd If you guys are going for it, give me a shout when the death threats and hate-speak starts coming in. I work security.

Might have to take you up on that. Would you be up for a little, ah, "pre-emptive" opression on my opposition? Just to let 'em know I mean business  

In Norway you can get an abortion in the first trimester without any dificulty. Ladies choice.
You may also get an abortion in the second trimester, if certain conditions are met (rape, divorces, etc.)
In the third trimester abortion is only an option if there is high risk to the mothers health.

This has worked rather well here in Norway, though of course we have universal health care...

Quote from: "terranus"

QuoteAnd If you guys are going for it, give me a shout when the death threats and hate-speak starts coming in. I work security.

Might have to take you up on that. Would you be up for a little, ah, "pre-emptive" opression on my opposition? Just to let 'em know I mean business  

Well.... I might.
This would not be the place to discuss such things, though.

Quote from: "Guardian85"You may also get an abortion in the second trimester, if certain conditions are met (rape, divorces, etc.)

...And yet some people say no to the golden opportunity to right a few wrongs with one medical procedure.  

Quote from: "Guardian85"In Norway you can get an abortion in the first trimester without any dificulty. Ladies choice.
You may also get an abortion in the second trimester, if certain conditions are met (rape, divorces, etc.)
In the third trimester abortion is only an option if there is high risk to the mothers health.

In the US first term is allowed for any reason.  I think past that it varies by state.

Interesting to find this topic. Backstreet abortion providers are a huge issue in South Africa. Women die all the time because of fake/poor medical care. Everywhere you walk in any SA town or city you see homemade signs up on lampposts saying "safe same-day abortion" or the like. They don't care what trimester you are in or what your medical condition is.