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Abortion, MMCs and political incorrectness

Started by Asmodean, February 05, 2011, 09:14:24 AM

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Asmodean

Quote from: "Existentialist"Your logic is compassionless.
Never pretended it wasn't.

QuoteThat's what makes your approach psychopathic, that's why you didn't mind hurting the woman whose child it was (if the story was even true).  That's why you're playing this game with the rest of us.
No games. Just a rant with a disclaimer at the top, which was there from the start and was an indication to the nature of my post

I don't intend to hurt the woman whos child it is, however, I will not paint the sky pink (or, in less metaphorical terms, alter or ignore the standing truth) just so she can feel good about herself.

QuoteI answered the whole of your post.  I selected just one quote that summed it all up.  There's no need for me to add anything.
Quote from: "Asmodean"If you had one arm and one leg, how would it diminish you if someone pointed the fact out? Or are we all supposed to pretend you are no different from the flock?(This is really a "why"-question if the answer in general is "yes")
I was actually looking for an answer to that. Marked one key word out and expanded a bit.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

LegendarySandwich

I can't really find a problem with your logic, Asmodean. Me, I'd want to know just exactly how disadvantaged this kid is before trying to make any decision. Do you know what problems he has?

Asmodean

Quote from: "Existentialist"Scrap.
A verb in this content. One that works for the purpose. Another one is, for instance, "terminate". Or "kill", should you prefer that one.

QuoteThere is a word for an emotionless individual who treats human life like an inanimate object.  Psychopath.
I'm more of a sociopath, really, and only a near-do-well sociopath at that. And I do not treat living organisms as inanimate objects. However, when I feel it is adequate to compare one to another, I do.

QuoteThere is a lot of truly psychopathic reasoning coming from Asmodean today.  At the moment I am in two minds about whether he is doing it just for attention, or if he really believes it.  It's pretty extreme, pretty sickening, and we seem to be completely powerless to respond to it in this forum on the level we really want to. Some Laid Back Lounge this is turning out to be.
Yeah... I think I actually put it in the wrong forum, which is part of the reason why I disclaimed and heavily edited it. It is a true story. My standing in this case is as described. I can see some mild extremism in my views, but more than mild, I think it's not. In fact, I've found that some people with whom I spoke of this incident agree with me on the points, if not the methods of achieving and ways my points are served. They just don't voice their agreement where political correctness prohibits it.

Me, I tend to say what I mean when voicing of my opinion of someone. And if I thik this woman is a money-sucking deadbeat fool and her kid is little more than a very expensive pet, that is what I call them, with an explanation of why, of course. I don't insult without a reason and explanation and they are always welcome to dispute my claims and in some cases even turn my opinion of them near-completely around. Has been known to happen.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Asmodean

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I can't really find a problem with your logic, Asmodean. Me, I'd want to know just exactly how disadvantaged this kid is before trying to make any decision. Do you know what problems he has?
Multiple conditions, as far as I understand. Which cause what is out of my medical league. Basically, the kid has no use of arms and legs, poor control of respiration and waste disposal (probably among other things), what I believe is called "severe mental retardation" to the point where it affects even the most basic functions and a tube coming out of his stomach region.

Does not make eye contact. Is just largely being a weird-looking lump in a wheelchair.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Existentialist

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I can't really find a problem with your logic, Asmodean. Me, I'd want to know just exactly how disadvantaged this kid is before trying to make any decision. Do you know what problems he has?
Quote from: "Asmodean"Multiple conditions, as far as I understand. Which cause what is out of my medical league. Basically, the kid has no use of arms and legs, poor control of respiration and waste disposal (probably among other things), what I believe is called "severe mental retardation" to the point where it affects even the most basic functions and a tube coming out of his stomach region.

Does not make eye contact. Is just largely being a weird-looking lump in a wheelchair.

Well, your attitude sickens me.  Both of you.

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "Existentialist"Well, your attitude sickens me.  Both of you.
That's fine.

What I really care about is his brain. What is his capacity for human emotion, such as pain and love? What is his intelligence? Et al.

If somebody's brain is damaged beyond the point of basic human functioning, then I see no reason why it should be kept alive; at the least, it should be placed in a special home where it can peacefully live and be taken care of.

Existentialist

Isn't he already at home?  

You said you were looking to make a decision.  What about?

Whitney

note: thread moved into the social issues area of the forum

Even though there is no apparent humane way around it, I don't like the idea of my tax dollars going to pay for children and people who have no higher brain function...like in the case of terry shivo (sp) where the poor husband wanted to let his wife's body go because his wife was no longer in it yet the rest of the family wanted to cling onto something that just wasn't there.  When I think of what makes a person a person and it's higher brain function that is the main factor (and may even mean some other animals could qualify for personhood).  So if a baby is going to be born without even the ability to have thoughts I don't really have an emotional connection to the child, past not wanting to cause unnecessary harm to living things.  I'm not a sociopath or a psychopath, I just think there is a line at which I would not provide life support to a human whether it is an adult or a baby because you'd just be keeping an unused body alive after high brain function is inactive.

The above said, I don't think we could claim to live in a civilized society if we didn't provide care to children simply because their mothers chose not to abort (imo too dumb to realize it is for the best and the most humane choice in some cases).  However, in home baby sitting if children who will never even know they are alive seems overboard to me too....group care facilities would be a humane yet cost effective option for those mothers who couldn't afford to raise a child with extremely special needs (like to the point that they aren't even sentient). This would free up resources for those families who do have special needs children but don't get enough help (or in some cases no help) because their kids aren't extreme enough.

No forced abortions.
No refusing to care for severely retarded and deformed babies.
No lack of empathy.
Simply making sure help is offered in a manner that does the most good both ethically and pragmatically.

JoeBobSmith

#38
Quote from: "Whitney"note: thread moved into the social issues area of the forum

Even though there is no apparent humane way around it, I don't like the idea of my tax dollars going to pay for children and people who have no higher brain function...like in the case of terry shivo (sp) where the poor husband wanted to let his wife's body go because his wife was no longer in it yet the rest of the family wanted to cling onto something that just wasn't there.  When I think of what makes a person a person and it's higher brain function that is the main factor (and may even mean some other animals could qualify for personhood).  So if a baby is going to be born without even the ability to have thoughts I don't really have an emotional connection to the child, past not wanting to cause unnecessary harm to living things.  I'm not a sociopath or a psychopath, I just think there is a line at which I would not provide life support to a human whether it is an adult or a baby because you'd just be keeping an unused body alive after high brain function is inactive.

The above said, I don't think we could claim to live in a civilized society if we didn't provide care to children simply because their mothers chose not to abort (imo too dumb to realize it is for the best and the most humane choice in some cases).  However, in home baby sitting if children who will never even know they are alive seems overboard to me too....group care facilities would be a humane yet cost effective option for those mothers who couldn't afford to raise a child with extremely special needs (like to the point that they aren't even sentient). This would free up resources for those families who do have special needs children but don't get enough help (or in some cases no help) because their kids aren't extreme enough.

No forced abortions.
No refusing to care for severely retarded and deformed babies.
No lack of empathy.
Simply making sure help is offered in a manner that does the most good both ethically and pragmatically.

all good points
JoeBobSmith

Asmodean

Quote from: "Existentialist"Isn't he already at home?
Yes. And mommy has a full time job, paid for by our glorious government, taking care of him 24/7. And that state paying part is, in my opinion, just wrong. Have I ever mentioned that before..?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Existentialist

Quote from: "Asmodean"
Quote from: "Existentialist"Isn't he already at home?
Yes. And mommy has a full time job, paid for by our glorious government, taking care of him 24/7. And that state paying part is, in my opinion, just wrong. Have I ever mentioned that before..?

I'm glad she gets that support from the state, and I'm glad people like you who would withdraw the funding are as rare as you are.  Being an atheist doesn't mean having a compassion by-pass.  I think you're mixing up atheism with psychopathy.   But you obviously have some conscience, since you want to soften the blow by calling it sociopathy, which has a more socially-aware ring to it.  That morsel of humanity makes me think you're just making a point to get attention.  Have fun for the rest of the conversation.

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "Whitney"note: thread moved into the social issues area of the forum

Even though there is no apparent humane way around it, I don't like the idea of my tax dollars going to pay for children and people who have no higher brain function...like in the case of terry shivo (sp) where the poor husband wanted to let his wife's body go because his wife was no longer in it yet the rest of the family wanted to cling onto something that just wasn't there.  When I think of what makes a person a person and it's higher brain function that is the main factor (and may even mean some other animals could qualify for personhood).  So if a baby is going to be born without even the ability to have thoughts I don't really have an emotional connection to the child, past not wanting to cause unnecessary harm to living things.  I'm not a sociopath or a psychopath, I just think there is a line at which I would not provide life support to a human whether it is an adult or a baby because you'd just be keeping an unused body alive after high brain function is inactive.

The above said, I don't think we could claim to live in a civilized society if we didn't provide care to children simply because their mothers chose not to abort (imo too dumb to realize it is for the best and the most humane choice in some cases).  However, in home baby sitting if children who will never even know they are alive seems overboard to me too....group care facilities would be a humane yet cost effective option for those mothers who couldn't afford to raise a child with extremely special needs (like to the point that they aren't even sentient). This would free up resources for those families who do have special needs children but don't get enough help (or in some cases no help) because their kids aren't extreme enough.

No forced abortions.
No refusing to care for severely retarded and deformed babies.
No lack of empathy.
Simply making sure help is offered in a manner that does the most good both ethically and pragmatically.
I agree with this.

Asmodean

Quote from: "Existentialist"I'm glad she gets that support from the state, and I'm glad people like you who would withdraw the funding are as rare as you are.
It is possible that after the next elections, some of that wrong will be righted.

QuoteBeing an atheist doesn't mean having a compassion by-pass.
True. Your point..?

QuoteI think you're mixing up atheism with psychopathy.
What utter rubbish...  :| Nor are you a psychologist, I suspect. Your diagnosis, as far as professionals are concerned, is incorrect. I am a near-do-well sociopath because I do not even qualify to that title enough to get it. Now I'd LOVE to see you dispute my medical history and fall on your face again... But something tells me you won't.

QuoteThat morsel of humanity makes me think you're just making a point to get attention.  Have fun for the rest of the conversation.
lol That morsel may be there because I am actually a human. Oh, and I have already answered that. I am making the point because I have a point to make. Because the wasting of my taxes on some near-vegetable who was born and will die that way pisses me off.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

terranus

QuoteI'm glad she gets that support from the state, and I'm glad people like you who would withdraw the funding are as rare as you are. Being an atheist doesn't mean having a compassion by-pass. I think you're mixing up atheism with psychopathy. But you obviously have some conscience, since you want to soften the blow by calling it sociopathy, which has a more socially-aware ring to it. That morsel of humanity makes me think you're just making a point to get attention. Have fun for the rest of the conversation

Compassion, having a "conscience" - these things are false realities created by the human imagination. You have to look at the world for what it is - not for what you feel it to be. Looking at the world and explaining from an emotional perspective doesn't work - you have to look at it using logic. The human race is not seperate from nature - we are just as much a part of the world as the dirt beneath our feet. Therefore, you must look at humanity's problems from a logical perspective as well. Being "humane" has nothing to do with it. If it can be proven before a fetus is born that, logically, it will be a drain on the rest of society, an unproductive member or the human race and unable to function at all, then I see no reason not to "scrap" it.

But there is one problem with this argument. How do you logically prove something that hasn't happened yet? Though some "improperly functioning" humans claim to be able to, we cannot predict the future. We can make educated guesses at them - but thats it. Perhaps we could use probability rules to come up with some type of percentage that the fetus in question will be a drain on society and a non-productive member of the human race. But is it really a good idea to base an abortion of a fetus on a percentage? For example, my mother has B+ blood, and my father has O+ blood. If you know anything about blood types and alleles, you would know that the percentage of me inheriting anything other than one of those 2 types of blood was very small. Yet I did - I ended up with O- blood - the universal donor. So, probability rules don't always work. But what then can we use? If there is nothing else out there that can give us a scientific, conclusive answer as to whether or not the fetus in question should be aborted, then the only logical thing left to do is not abort it due to lack of evidence.  :hmm:
Trovas Veron!
--terranus | http://terranus.org--

Existentialist

Quote from: "terranus"Compassion, having a "conscience" - these things are false realities created by the human imagination. You have to look at the world for what it is - not for what you feel it to be. Looking at the world and explaining from an emotional perspective doesn't work - you have to look at it using logic. The human race is not seperate from nature - we are just as much a part of the world as the dirt beneath our feet. Therefore, you must look at humanity's problems from a logical perspective as well. Being "humane" has nothing to do with it. If it can be proven before a fetus is born that, logically, it will be a drain on the rest of society, an unproductive member or the human race and unable to function at all, then I see no reason not to "scrap" it.
All realities are false realities.  We live only by models of the world us, and we have to trust those models as best we can.  The model I most trust is one in which humans acknowledge and respond to their own emotions.  For centuries our predecessors were taught to deny their own emotions and submit instead to the ruthless dominance of the prevailing religion.  In the last two or three decades we have become more acquainted with our feelings and more trusting of our individual emotions - then these logical empiricists come along under the banner of atheism telling us all to put our feelings back in a box again and not take any notice of them.  Just one of many ways in which the new atheism simply replicates the religion of the past.  

All realities are false realities, we just have to decide for ourselves which false reality we prefer.