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General => Philosophy => Topic started by: billy rubin on December 30, 2021, 05:15:15 PM

Title: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on December 30, 2021, 05:15:15 PM
this is an ironic question for me and always has been. i do not believe in good or evil, but live my life as if i did. given that absurdist foundation, the idea of "choosing the lesser evil" has always puzzled me.




this question goes to the heart of right and wrong, or of morality in general. life is always messy, but sometimes absolutes and clear questions appear that require a fundamental examination of assumptions and values. this is one of them.

is it right to perform a wrong to achieve a good?

what is the exchange rate? a minor wrong for a much greater good, or a closer balance?

is it wrong to refuse to do wrong to achieve good?

the devil is in the details.

what are they for you?
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on December 30, 2021, 06:21:48 PM
there is no right or wrong answer to this, by the way

in my opinion
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: No one on December 30, 2021, 06:30:24 PM
Torturing a pedophile to achieve the location of an endangered child is a lesser evil I would accept any day of the week.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on December 30, 2021, 09:39:26 PM
why?
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: No one on December 30, 2021, 10:13:23 PM
Seriously?

If inflicting pain on a subhuman piece of shit, saves a child's life, then so be it.

I wouldn't lose a moments sleep over it.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on December 31, 2021, 12:50:09 AM
yes. seriously.

you obviously believe in right and wrong.

where do they come from?
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: Tank on December 31, 2021, 08:20:28 AM
IMO the problem of good vs evil or right vs wrong is that it's not a clear cut problem. It is beset be issues of context and perspective. Particularly the 'lesser of two evils choice. In that case who choses which is the lesser evil?
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on December 31, 2021, 11:25:03 AM
the whole right and wrong thing is full of complxities. where does jt come from? whose authorities are preeminent of whose?

but people generally obey a set of moral rules, of some sort, so im curious about the hierarchy that people decide to use.

some things most people will say are always wrong, like causing unnrcessary pain. other people will say some things are wrong sometimes and not at others, like lying.

i used to be very black and white about this, not at all anymore.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: No one on December 31, 2021, 12:00:58 PM
It's not about the rights or the wrongs, it's about the way it works.
If you attack a small child, and seriously harm them, then you have no right to complain when someone much bigger and stronger than you returns the favor.


I'm just saying if a person who raped and strangled a 4 year old girl, is found beaten, hanged, with hockey stick full embedded in their ass, I won't lose any sleep over it.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: Tom62 on December 31, 2021, 12:48:27 PM
Interesting discussion. What is right, what is wrong and what is the lesser evil? So many grey zones. Like the discussion about transgender women competing in women sports. Discriminating transgender women by banning them from participating or allowing them to crush women records and making it nearly impossible for other women to compete? Or other discussions about for example Antifa, defunding the police, CRT, Kyle Rittenhouse, etc. where many people are likely to disagree.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: jumbojak on December 31, 2021, 02:28:12 PM
Quote from: No one on December 30, 2021, 06:30:24 PM
Torturing a pedophile to achieve the location of an endangered child is a lesser evil I would accept any day of the week.
I don't consider that evil at all. Then again, not that long ago I was admiring a sticker that read, "Kill Your Local Pedophile" so maybe I'm biased.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: Tank on January 01, 2022, 06:09:00 AM
"is it right to choose the lesser evil?"

Assuming for the sake of discussion we agree that the two actions are evil and that one is less evil than the other.

Given that evil is undesirable then choosing the lesser of the two is to reduce undesirable activity.

Thus choosing the lesser evil should, on the face of it, be the better course.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on January 01, 2022, 01:29:32 PM
thats the old utilitarian view, greatest good for the greatest number.

but then is it okay to oppress a minority to make the majority better off?

oppressing a few is a lesser evil than allowing the many to suffer instead. its the omelas question, which leguine posed but would not answer.

this is the hard question:

QuoteAssuming for the sake of discussion we agree that the two actions are evil and that one is less evil than the other.

when we agree that something is evil, how do we decide that it is lesser?
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on January 01, 2022, 01:49:44 PM
here it is

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://marktomforde.com/academic/miscellaneous/stories/ursula-k-le-guin-the-ones-who-walk-away-from-omelas.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjAxJ_e2JD1AhWzkHIEHcNwDwQQFnoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1iB-qxWIIN9VQ4KM6zb2ao
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: Old Seer on January 01, 2022, 04:01:17 PM
When the universe was created, right and wrong wasn't created. Right and wrong was invented/created  by authoritarians to control the actions of people. To mitigate the harm one can do to others requires regulation, however, control of others has gone beyond harm to manipulate for specific social purposes creating societies to the liking of the authorities, and also to the liking of societies members in general.
Good and evil are automatic consequences of existing in the universe. IE- the sun is both good and evil (helpful vs harmful) being good for life to exist but harmful when in too much sun. There are good and evil consequences with all things and decisions, hence- no good deed goes unpunished, as almost all things have opposites. The universe cannot be right or wrong, it just naturally is---it's nature. A person cannot be right or wrong, but deemed so by peers who agree that something is to be made as such by determination. 
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: No one on January 01, 2022, 06:02:55 PM
If you make the decision to willfully rob someone of their will, you are now worthless. You no longer are considered human. You are expendable.

I have zero pity for anyone who commits such atrocities.

Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on January 01, 2022, 06:29:14 PM
"of their will?"
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: No one on January 01, 2022, 06:35:43 PM
If you do something to someone who doesn't want that something done to them.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on January 01, 2022, 06:49:09 PM
sure

but you said earlier that you would torture pedophiles, which would probably violate their will.

im not disagreeing, just observing that something deeper is going on there
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: No one on January 01, 2022, 06:58:39 PM
I think you are missing my point.

Once you make a conscious decision to harm another human being, you forfeit any and all rights to complain if you are now purposely harmed.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on January 01, 2022, 08:31:35 PM
no, i understand your position. equal treatment and equal responsibility.

but all moral systems like that rely on a system of values of some sort. if two people agree that the system applies to both of them, then you can have a relationship on that basis. anything else results in either just disagreement, or somebody getting forced.

in the country of pedophiles, for example, you might spend most of your time in jail for objecting to pedophilia. child marriage is legal and acceptable in places like iran, afghanistan, india, massachusetts (12), new hampshire (13), hawaii (15) and missouri (15).

you might consider it pedophilia, but there its considered normal.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: Old Seer on January 01, 2022, 11:06:29 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2022, 08:31:35 PM
no, i understand your position. equal treatment and equal responsibility.

but all moral systems like that rely on a system of values of some sort. if two people agree that the system applies to both of them, then you can have a relationship on that basis. anything else results in either just disagreement, or somebody getting forced.

in the country of pedophiles, for example, you might spend most of your time in jail for objecting to pedophilia. child marriage is legal and acceptable in places like iran, afghanistan, india, massachusetts (12), new hampshire (13), hawaii (15) and missouri (15).

you might consider it pedophilia, but there its considered normal.
Create a common denominator. Go back to a time of no cognitive beings (people), Would there be right and wrong, no. Lions, tigers, bears and zebras have little concept of right and wrong, but they are susceptible to good and evil. Lions do evil upon Zebras by killing for sustenance. The Lion does what's "good" for itself by an evil upon the Zebra. The Zebra eats grass which is good for the Zebra but harmful to the grass. Evil and good then relates to bio-structures. Breaking a rock cannot be evil to a rock, the rock has no concept of good and evil or right and wrong. That makes good and evil right and wrong relative only to bio-structures. Plants for the most part have no nervous system to experience pain, so they don't comprehend good and evil, or right and wrong.

The universe cannot be evil or good to itself, but from it's resources bio-structures were created---it's the bio-structures that experience good and evil because of painful experience or loss , but that doesn't make right or wrong. Right and wrong has been reserved for cognitive beings to decide for themselves, but good and evil rules in all cases. Good is derived from and evil upon someone else, and evil can be derived from good, the two are a universal constant---one cannot be without without the other, it's universal law that all are subject to.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 18, 2022, 01:07:29 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 01, 2022, 01:29:32 PM
thats the old utilitarian view, greatest good for the greatest number.

but then is it okay to oppress a minority to make the majority better off?

But where is the choice between two evils there? Don't oppress the minority and there is no "evil" at all. It is not a choice between two evils.

If you have two evils that we agree are evil, then I agree with Tank that the lesser evil is better. How to decide what is "lesser" can be a problem. That will all depend on how much weight you place on the consequences of each evil. For example, if the choice is Donald Trump for President or some incompetent Democrat, then the choice for me is clear - I am voting for the Dem, as I consider Trump to be a much greater evil.

But whether to silence a crying baby by killing it or reveal the location of the whole group who are trying to escape the Nazis might be a more difficult situation. If they are revealed, the Nazis would probably kill the baby along with the whole group. So there it may come down to a simple utilitarian calculation.
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: Icarus on January 19, 2022, 01:08:11 AM
 ^ :beer:
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 19, 2022, 08:32:50 AM
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on January 21, 2022, 05:16:51 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 18, 2022, 01:07:29 AM

But whether to silence a crying baby by killing it or reveal the location of the whole group who are trying to escape the Nazis might be a more difficult situation. If they are revealed, the Nazis would probably kill the baby along with the whole group. So there it may come down to a simple utilitarian calculation.

i am always skeptical of utilitarianism, because it so often seems to be th eeasy way out: don't think, don't look deeply, just do whatever it takes to make everybody superficially happy in the moment . . .

because its the nature of utilitarianism to deny meaning, and if meaning is true then utilitarianism is superficial. in the discussion of nihilism/existientialism/absurdism, utilitarianism is the simple rejection of the question itself. faced with the dilemma of acting according to an underlying moral framework, the utilitarian will seek a situational resolution,

im bemused by the question, personally, because i reject meaning in any context other than an absurdist acceptance of something i dont believe in as a guide to my actions.

so the question is still there for me. in the end it doesnt matter, but what if it did?
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 21, 2022, 09:30:37 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on January 21, 2022, 05:16:51 PM

so the question is still there for me. in the end it doesnt matter, but what if it did?

If it did matter, what meaning or significance would you attach to it, and why?  Kill the baby and save the group, or let the baby cry and cause the whole group, including the baby, to die. What choice would you make, assuming it mattered?
Title: Re: is it right to choose the lesser evil?
Post by: billy rubin on January 22, 2022, 03:23:49 AM
i dont see a moral difference between killing the baby and allowing the group to die.

causing one death is the same as causing a million deaths, insofar as making a decision to kill is concerned. there is no lesser evil, unless right and wrong is additive, like football scores. is stealing one dollar less wrong than stealing two dollars? or is the important thing making a decision to steal?

i see no meaning or significance to either choice.

i honestly dont know what i would do. being hardwired by evolution is one thing, but i am free to depart from its constraints if i choose.

back when i was religious questions like yours were easier for me, because i believed in right and wrong.