Hotel replaces bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey" (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.boston.com/travel/blog/2012/07/hotel_replaces.html%3Fcomments%3Dall&sa=U&ei=RwoQUIy0Esj00gHs8IC4BA&ved=0CAcQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGXLCyn8wNCjtjwHTR4lJsCk6YnMg)
QuoteIt's a natural curiosity many of us have when checking into a hotel. Open the top drawer of your room, and naturally you'll find one of the best-selling books of all time.
The Bible? Uh, no.
"Fifty Shades of Grey?" Well, yes.
According to NBCNews.com, a British hotel has replaced the Bible with the steamy, summer hit by E.L. James in its 40 guest rooms.
Jonathan Denby, owner of the Damson Dene, told NBC he had purchased the hotel form a Methodist group about a decade ago and had been wondering how to replace the Gideons Bibles in each of the room.
"I was thinking originally of putting in a book by Ayn Rand - 'Atas Shrugged' was my first thought," Denby told NBC News.
"(But) because everybody is reading 'Fifty Shades of Grey,' we thought it would be a hospitable thing to do, to have this available for our guests, especially if some of them were a little bit shy about buying it because of its reputation."
Of course, the move hasn't come without controversy. The Rev. Michael Woodcock , the parish priest at a local church recently told the Wesmorland Gazette, "It is a great shame that Bibles have been removed from rooms and very inappropriate to have been replaced by an explicit erotic novel."
Edit: Fixed link. Thanks Tank
That link appears to be dead but this one hits the spot http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9412969/Vicar-condemns-hotel-after-it-replaces-Gideon-Bible-with-50-Shades-of-Grey.html
What a wonderful publicity stunt!!!
It's all over Google!!!
I wonder just how often they will need to replace the books.
Last thing I wanna do on a dirty weekend is READ about sex... :D
Shoulda stuck with Ayn Rand... :-\
I'm kind of put off by the idea of previous guests....um.....getting germs on them. :-\
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 25, 2012, 05:19:23 PM
Last thing I wanna do on a dirty weekend is READ about sex... :D
Shoulda stuck with Ayn Rand... :-\
For me, that would just be two different ways of being bored. I've never understood why hotels have to offer reading matter in the first place -- I realize the Gideon's bible thing is a low level attempt at conversion (which is really not the hotel's business) but people who like to read bring books
with them, they don't turn up bookless and rely on pot luck.
Hotel...or motel?
Seemingly they don't have a paid porn channel on the room TV, or the book'd be losing them revenue.
It is very odd that hotel have a bible in them.
Getting rid of it is a good thing.
I've always wondered what would happen if I dialed reception and asked if I could have the bible replaced with the god delusion.
Would be even funnier if they chucked all of the bibles in the dumpster. :D
Ever since I was a kid, I've always checked every bible I've ever had in a hotel room (and without fail, it has been there in the drawer of EVERY single one. God damn it if those Gideons don't have a monopoly on that), shaking it out to see if anything comes out. Never found anything, but maybe one day. I've heard people have found money in them before.
Although, if I know about it, certainly the cleaning staff knows about it and they check. So my odds decrease drastically because now I have to have the room right after the guy who stashed his cheddar in the bible and forgot it was there when he checked out.
Only seen a bible in one hotel room... But then, I didn't check for religious text at every check-in.
Quote from: Asmodean on July 26, 2012, 07:25:08 AM
Only seen a bible in one hotel room... But then, I didn't check for religious text at every check-in.
I haven't ever seen one either, but I have never looked. Last thing I am going to look for on holiday is a bible.
Quote from: Crow on July 26, 2012, 03:10:51 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on July 26, 2012, 07:25:08 AM
Only seen a bible in one hotel room... But then, I didn't check for religious text at every check-in.
I haven't ever seen one either, but I have never looked. Last thing I am going to look for on holiday is a bible.
Seriously? At least half the hotels I've stayed in have them, usually in the night table right next to the bed, where it's easy to find. Less so in Europe, though. Definitely everywhere in the US, and Jamaica.
I don't think I've ever been to a hotel that did not have a bible in the room.
Quote from: Firebird link=topic=10327.msg183294#msg183294
Seriously? At least half the hotels I've stayed in have them, usually in the night table right next to the bed, where it's easy to find. Less so in Europe, though. Definitely everywhere in the US, and Jamaica.
I just don't look for them when I am on holiday, the hotel is where I sleep and wash that is it. I have been to the States a few times but never noticed one, but I am guessing that they did contain them.
Quote from: Crow on July 26, 2012, 03:10:51 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on July 26, 2012, 07:25:08 AM
Only seen a bible in one hotel room... But then, I didn't check for religious text at every check-in.
I haven't ever seen one either, but I have never looked. Last thing I am going to look for on holiday is a bible.
Every single fucking hotel i've stayed at for an anime or comic convention has had a bible.
Though,i went to a winery once with Mimi, and we found a bible AND the book of Mormon. X_x;....
It's really irritating to find that garbage so close to wear i sleep >_>;;
They really should stop that bullshit.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 26, 2012, 04:11:49 PM
Though,i went to a winery once with Mimi, and we found a bible AND the book of Mormon. X_x;....
I've seen some BoMs too... Was it a Marriott?
I guess I don't understand the anger directed towards bibles in hotel rooms. That falls squarely in the "super easy to avoid/ignore" category and gets a little too close to "I don't like it so I don't think it should exist" for my comfort.
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 05:42:24 PM
I guess I don't understand the anger directed towards bibles in hotel rooms. That falls squarely in the "super easy to avoid/ignore" category and gets a little too close to "I don't like it so I don't think it should exist" for my comfort.
It's not necessary for a guest's comfort or convenience and it carries an assumption that Christians are entitled to encroach on anyone's space and to push their message at believers and non- believers alike. At one level it's a non- event, but I can see why it is an irritant for some. I think it's fair enough that if I want to be evangelised, I'll ask for it. I wouldn't be thrilled either if the owner of the hotel chain was a Neo-Nazi and left a copy of Mein Kampf in my room.
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 05:53:22 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 05:42:24 PM
I guess I don't understand the anger directed towards bibles in hotel rooms. That falls squarely in the "super easy to avoid/ignore" category and gets a little too close to "I don't like it so I don't think it should exist" for my comfort.
It's not necessary for a guest's comfort or convenience and it carries an assumption that Christians are entitled to encroach on anyone's space and to push their message at believers and non- believers alike. At one level it's a non- event, but I can see why it is an irritant for some. I think it's fair enough that if I want to be evangelised, I'll ask for it. I wouldn't be thrilled either if the owner of the hotel chain was a Neo-Nazi and left a copy of Mein Kampf in my room.
Yes. It's also another example of Christians pushing their religion in my face and attempting to evangelize, which I resent.
Quote from: Firebird on July 26, 2012, 06:35:33 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 05:53:22 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 05:42:24 PM
I guess I don't understand the anger directed towards bibles in hotel rooms. That falls squarely in the "super easy to avoid/ignore" category and gets a little too close to "I don't like it so I don't think it should exist" for my comfort.
It's not necessary for a guest's comfort or convenience and it carries an assumption that Christians are entitled to encroach on anyone's space and to push their message at believers and non- believers alike. At one level it's a non- event, but I can see why it is an irritant for some. I think it's fair enough that if I want to be evangelised, I'll ask for it. I wouldn't be thrilled either if the owner of the hotel chain was a Neo-Nazi and left a copy of Mein Kampf in my room.
Yes. It's also another example of Christians pushing their religion in my face and attempting to evangelize, which I resent.
I guess I just don't see how leaving a book tucked into a drawer is really pushing their message or shoving it down someone's throat. As respresented on the many people here who have never even noticed it there, it's the easiest thing in the world to not open up and read.
Is leaving 50 Shades of Grey shoving pornography down people's throats, or would you advise them to simply not read it?
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 06:44:38 PM
Quote from: Firebird on July 26, 2012, 06:35:33 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 05:53:22 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 05:42:24 PM
I guess I don't understand the anger directed towards bibles in hotel rooms. That falls squarely in the "super easy to avoid/ignore" category and gets a little too close to "I don't like it so I don't think it should exist" for my comfort.
It's not necessary for a guest's comfort or convenience and it carries an assumption that Christians are entitled to encroach on anyone's space and to push their message at believers and non- believers alike. At one level it's a non- event, but I can see why it is an irritant for some. I think it's fair enough that if I want to be evangelised, I'll ask for it. I wouldn't be thrilled either if the owner of the hotel chain was a Neo-Nazi and left a copy of Mein Kampf in my room.
Yes. It's also another example of Christians pushing their religion in my face and attempting to evangelize, which I resent.
I guess I just don't see how leaving a book tucked into a drawer is really pushing their message or shoving it down someone's throat. As respresented on the many people here who have never even noticed it there, it's the easiest thing in the world to not open up and read.
Is leaving 50 Shades of Grey shoving pornography down people's throats, or would you advise them to simply not read it?
I think the 50SoG book is a bit of a publicity stunt myself. However I do think that a bible in every bedroom is getting past what should be acceptable. Why should two people, the hotel owner and an evangelist theist, feel that it is socially acceptable to proselytise in this manner in this day and age? It may be a small thing, like a grain of sand, but get enough sand in one place and we have a desert a place of cultural and intellectual sterility. Bibles on hotel rooms
can be ignored but
should they be ignored?
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2012, 06:58:32 PM
I think the 50SoG book is a bit of a publicity stunt myself. However I do think that a bible in every bedroom is getting past what should be acceptable. Why should two people, the hotel owner and an evangelist theist, feel that it is socially acceptable to proselytise in this manner in this day and age? It may be a small thing, like a grain of sand, but get enough sand in one place and we have a desert a place of cultural and intellectual sterility. Bibles on hotel rooms can be ignored but should they be ignored?
In this manner? It's leaving a book in a drawer. You know what I hate? When they actually bug you...like when they come to your house or try to stop you when you're walking down the street to tell you what all they think about religion. I liken leaving a book in a drawer to having a Christian channel on television. I have zero desire to watch a Christian channel and I'll probably make fun of it if I stumble upon it, but I don't think it is somehow infringing on me because all I have to do is just not watch it. Same with a book. Just don't read it. I would say the same if theists were complaining about an atheist hotelier who left The God Delusion (or 50 Shades of Gray) in the drawer.
I don't really like the idea of having Bibles pushed in my face, so I always remove the hotel ones and bin them. If we all do that the Gideonites will soon be broke.
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 07:05:14 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2012, 06:58:32 PM
I think the 50SoG book is a bit of a publicity stunt myself. However I do think that a bible in every bedroom is getting past what should be acceptable. Why should two people, the hotel owner and an evangelist theist, feel that it is socially acceptable to proselytise in this manner in this day and age? It may be a small thing, like a grain of sand, but get enough sand in one place and we have a desert a place of cultural and intellectual sterility. Bibles on hotel rooms can be ignored but should they be ignored?
In this manner? It's leaving a book in a drawer. You know what I hate? When they actually bug you...like when they come to your house or try to stop you when you're walking down the street to tell you what all they think about religion. I liken leaving a book in a drawer to having a Christian channel on television. I have zero desire to watch a Christian channel and I'll probably make fun of it if I stumble upon it, but I don't think it is somehow infringing on me because all I have to do is just not watch it. Same with a book. Just don't read it. I would say the same if theists were complaining about an atheist hotelier who left The God Delusion (or 50 Shades of Gray) in the drawer.
I don't think that's an equivalent example. What if your hotel tv only allows you to view religious programming? Sure, you can turn your tv off and just not watch it, but would you not feel that the hotel was using its business to proselytize? How is providing a bible, and only a bible, any different?
If the hotel provides a library of different books and one of them happens to be the bible, then I would not have a problem with it.
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2012, 06:58:32 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 06:44:38 PM
Quote from: Firebird on July 26, 2012, 06:35:33 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 05:53:22 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 05:42:24 PM
I guess I don't understand the anger directed towards bibles in hotel rooms. That falls squarely in the "super easy to avoid/ignore" category and gets a little too close to "I don't like it so I don't think it should exist" for my comfort.
It's not necessary for a guest's comfort or convenience and it carries an assumption that Christians are entitled to encroach on anyone's space and to push their message at believers and non- believers alike. At one level it's a non- event, but I can see why it is an irritant for some. I think it's fair enough that if I want to be evangelised, I'll ask for it. I wouldn't be thrilled either if the owner of the hotel chain was a Neo-Nazi and left a copy of Mein Kampf in my room.
Yes. It's also another example of Christians pushing their religion in my face and attempting to evangelize, which I resent.
I guess I just don't see how leaving a book tucked into a drawer is really pushing their message or shoving it down someone's throat. As respresented on the many people here who have never even noticed it there, it's the easiest thing in the world to not open up and read.
Is leaving 50 Shades of Grey shoving pornography down people's throats, or would you advise them to simply not read it?
I think the 50SoG book is a bit of a publicity stunt myself. However I do think that a bible in every bedroom is getting past what should be acceptable. Why should two people, the hotel owner and an evangelist theist, feel that it is socially acceptable to proselytise in this manner in this day and age? It may be a small thing, like a grain of sand, but get enough sand in one place and we have a desert a place of cultural and intellectual sterility. Bibles on hotel rooms can be ignored but should they be ignored?
I think this is the point. There is a symbolic significance that far outweighs the practicalities here, namely an a ceptance that Christianity ishould be allowed to intrude itself even where it may not be wanted. This is symptomatic of a arrogance and sense of entitlement that characterises some elements of the Christian establishment and for those of us who think society would be a healthier place without it, is worth resisting.
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 07:05:14 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2012, 06:58:32 PM
I think the 50SoG book is a bit of a publicity stunt myself. However I do think that a bible in every bedroom is getting past what should be acceptable. Why should two people, the hotel owner and an evangelist theist, feel that it is socially acceptable to proselytise in this manner in this day and age? It may be a small thing, like a grain of sand, but get enough sand in one place and we have a desert a place of cultural and intellectual sterility. Bibles on hotel rooms can be ignored but should they be ignored?
In this manner? It's leaving a book in a drawer. You know what I hate? When they actually bug you...like when they come to your house or try to stop you when you're walking down the street to tell you what all they think about religion. I liken leaving a book in a drawer to having a Christian channel on television. I have zero desire to watch a Christian channel and I'll probably make fun of it if I stumble upon it, but I don't think it is somehow infringing on me because all I have to do is just not watch it. Same with a book. Just don't read it. I would say the same if theists were complaining about an atheist hotelier who left The God Delusion (or 50 Shades of Gray) in the drawer.
I totally agree with your right to disagree with me ;D
Religion
should stay in the home and place of worship in my opinion. When it does spill out from there I do do my best to ignore it, but that doesn't mean I like it any more than any other form of advertising (all be it hidden in a drawer).
Quote from: Firebird on July 26, 2012, 07:14:32 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 07:05:14 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2012, 06:58:32 PM
I think the 50SoG book is a bit of a publicity stunt myself. However I do think that a bible in every bedroom is getting past what should be acceptable. Why should two people, the hotel owner and an evangelist theist, feel that it is socially acceptable to proselytise in this manner in this day and age? It may be a small thing, like a grain of sand, but get enough sand in one place and we have a desert a place of cultural and intellectual sterility. Bibles on hotel rooms can be ignored but should they be ignored?
In this manner? It's leaving a book in a drawer. You know what I hate? When they actually bug you...like when they come to your house or try to stop you when you're walking down the street to tell you what all they think about religion. I liken leaving a book in a drawer to having a Christian channel on television. I have zero desire to watch a Christian channel and I'll probably make fun of it if I stumble upon it, but I don't think it is somehow infringing on me because all I have to do is just not watch it. Same with a book. Just don't read it. I would say the same if theists were complaining about an atheist hotelier who left The God Delusion (or 50 Shades of Gray) in the drawer.
I don't think that's an equivalent example. What if your hotel tv only allows you to view religious programming? Sure, you can turn your tv off and just not watch it, but would you not feel that the hotel was using its business to proselytize? How is providing a bible, and only a bible, any different?
If the hotel provides a library of different books and one of them happens to be the bible, then I would not have a problem with it.
I thnk the difference is that most people bring books they want to read with them (if they are readers.) You can't really bring your TV programming with you. Okay, I guess with technology now you can, but I don't know how. ;D It's not like you're not alllowed to read other books in a hotel, they just don't provide other books.
I don't know, the whole thing just seriously reminds me of some of the worst arguments against homosexuality, like "Ugh, I don't want to see it or know it's there." I think in general the world is a better place when we don't take offense at every tiny thing. So, there's a book you don't like in a closed drawer across the room. Just seems like a weird place to get up in arms.
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 08:33:40 PM
Quote from: Firebird on July 26, 2012, 07:14:32 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 07:05:14 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2012, 06:58:32 PM
I think the 50SoG book is a bit of a publicity stunt myself. However I do think that a bible in every bedroom is getting past what should be acceptable. Why should two people, the hotel owner and an evangelist theist, feel that it is socially acceptable to proselytise in this manner in this day and age? It may be a small thing, like a grain of sand, but get enough sand in one place and we have a desert a place of cultural and intellectual sterility. Bibles on hotel rooms can be ignored but should they be ignored?
In this manner? It's leaving a book in a drawer. You know what I hate? When they actually bug you...like when they come to your house or try to stop you when you're walking down the street to tell you what all they think about religion. I liken leaving a book in a drawer to having a Christian channel on television. I have zero desire to watch a Christian channel and I'll probably make fun of it if I stumble upon it, but I don't think it is somehow infringing on me because all I have to do is just not watch it. Same with a book. Just don't read it. I would say the same if theists were complaining about an atheist hotelier who left The God Delusion (or 50 Shades of Gray) in the drawer.
I don't think that's an equivalent example. What if your hotel tv only allows you to view religious programming? Sure, you can turn your tv off and just not watch it, but would you not feel that the hotel was using its business to proselytize? How is providing a bible, and only a bible, any different?
If the hotel provides a library of different books and one of them happens to be the bible, then I would not have a problem with it.
I thnk the difference is that most people bring books they want to read with them (if they are readers.) You can't really bring your TV programming with you. Okay, I guess with technology now you can, but I don't know how. ;D It's not like you're not alllowed to read other books in a hotel, they just don't provide other books.
I don't know, the whole thing just seriously reminds me of some of the worst arguments against homosexuality, like "Ugh, I don't want to see it or know it's there." I think in general the world is a better place when we don't take offense at every tiny thing. So, there's a book you don't like in a closed drawer across the room. Just seems like a weird place to get up in arms.
Would you feel the same if the book was a virulently homophobic tract?
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 09:31:19 PM
Would you feel the same if the book was a virulently homophobic tract?
Isn't it though? ;D
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 09:31:19 PM
Would you feel the same if the book was a virulently homophobic tract?
Isn't it though? ;D
I believe that's where he was going :)
OMG they should just put Twilight in there!!!
I like OldGit's idea of throwing them in the garbage. :P
Quote from: hismikeness on July 26, 2012, 04:22:06 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 26, 2012, 04:11:49 PM
Though,i went to a winery once with Mimi, and we found a bible AND the book of Mormon. X_x;....
I've seen some BoMs too... Was it a Marriott?
Yes, actually, it was!
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 09:31:19 PM
Would you feel the same if the book was a virulently homophobic tract?
Isn't it though? ;D
I was just going to say that xD
I've never liked hotel provided books in hotel rooms anyways. I just think that they are a breeding ground for germs.
Every hotel that I went to has had bibles in them. It really does not bother me that much. I just choose not to read the bible while I stay at the hotel. I would find the bible in the room bothersome if somebody came and knocked on the door to see if I read "god's word"
Quote from: hismikeness on July 26, 2012, 11:22:35 PM
OMG they should just put Twilight in there!!!
Werewolves and Vampires are probably an improvement over a Zombie.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 27, 2012, 01:02:50 AM
I like OldGit's idea of throwing them in the garbage. :P
We would need a really big bin.
Quote from: markmcdaniel on July 27, 2012, 06:36:38 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 27, 2012, 01:02:50 AM
I like OldGit's idea of throwing them in the garbage. :P
We would need a really big bin.
Reminds me of the "hide the bible" tumblr.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2.moonbuggy.org%2Fimgstore%2Fchristian-fiction.jpg&hash=8be1892cb52486199dc32cc330bfa3c1c9f9e91d)
Quote from: hismikeness on July 26, 2012, 11:22:35 PM
OMG they should just put Twilight in there!!!
What is it, that? The vast majority of fourteen year old girls seem to be talking about it, so I assume it's something to ruin my favourite light setting, but still? Is it that which has a mormon vampire in magic undies?
Quote from: Asmodean on July 27, 2012, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: hismikeness on July 26, 2012, 11:22:35 PM
OMG they should just put Twilight in there!!!
What is it, that? The vast majority of fourteen year old girls seem to be talking about it, so I assume it's something to ruin my favourite light setting, but still? Is it that which has a mormon vampire in magic undies?
I don't know about all that, but vampires ring a bell. I was just being sarcastic.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2012, 02:42:06 AM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 09:31:19 PM
Would you feel the same if the book was a virulently homophobic tract?
Isn't it though? ;D
I was just going to say that xD
Well,certainly all the Christian religions as far as I know do interpret it as classifying the practice of homosexuality as a sin. I suspect homophobia has been almost universal in all cultures until relatively recently. Scotland is due to become the first part of the UK to legalise gay marriages and that may represent a significant breakthrough in this part of the world.
Quote from: En_Route on July 27, 2012, 09:12:27 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2012, 02:42:06 AM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 09:31:19 PM
Would you feel the same if the book was a virulently homophobic tract?
Isn't it though? ;D
I was just going to say that xD
Well,certainly all the Christian religions as far as I know do interpret it as classifying the practice of homosexuality as a sin. I suspect homophobia has been almost universal in all cultures until relatively recently. Scotland is due to become the first part of the UK to legalise gay marriages and that may represent a significant breakthrough in this part of the world.
I seriously thought gay marriage was already legal in the UK. Didn't Elton John marry his partner, or did I dream that up in some sort of magical piano and blingy sunglasses filled fantasy? (I'm not making fun; I freaking love Sir Elton.)
Quote from: Ali on July 27, 2012, 05:56:08 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 27, 2012, 09:12:27 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2012, 02:42:06 AM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 09:31:19 PM
Would you feel the same if the book was a virulently homophobic tract?
Isn't it though? ;D
I was just going to say that xD
Well,certainly all the Christian religions as far as I know do interpret it as classifying the practice of homosexuality as a sin. I suspect homophobia has been almost universal in all cultures until relatively recently. Scotland is due to become the first part of the UK to legalise gay marriages and that may represent a significant breakthrough in this part of the world.
I seriously thought gay marriage was already legal in the UK. Didn't Elton John marry his partner, or did I dream that up in some sort of magical piano and blingy sunglasses filled fantasy? (I'm not making fun; I freaking love Sir Elton.)
Same- sex couples can enter into civil partnerships which generally confer the same legal rights and obligations as marriage.
Quote from: En_Route on July 27, 2012, 09:12:27 AM
I suspect homophobia has been almost universal in all cultures until relatively recently.
Many people point to certain themes in the culture of ancient Greece that seem to them to be accepting of what we describe as homosexuality. I myself find that suspect, because it involves an attempt to impose modern "Western" cultural understanding (which has been formed by many centuries of domination by Christianity) on a culture which is really alien at its heart.
I've seen some mention of traditional Japanese culture's acceptance of homosexuality. From what I've been able to find, most Amerind cultures not only accepted homosexuality, but the "two spirit" or
berdache was generally a well respected and even powerful member of the tribe.
I haven't made a thorough study of this question, because it's only of passing interest to me, but I think it's likely that one could find other cultures in which the supposed "universal" homophobia does not exist.
Quote from: Ali on July 27, 2012, 05:56:08 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 27, 2012, 09:12:27 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2012, 02:42:06 AM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 09:31:19 PM
Would you feel the same if the book was a virulently homophobic tract?
Isn't it though? ;D
I was just going to say that xD
Well,certainly all the Christian religions as far as I know do interpret it as classifying the practice of homosexuality as a sin. I suspect homophobia has been almost universal in all cultures until relatively recently. Scotland is due to become the first part of the UK to legalise gay marriages and that may represent a significant breakthrough in this part of the world.
I seriously thought gay marriage was already legal in the UK. Didn't Elton John marry his partner, or did I dream that up in some sort of magical piano and blingy sunglasses filled fantasy? (I'm not making fun; I freaking love Sir Elton.)
Civil union but not 'marriage' as such which will be the case over the next few years.
Quote from: Tank on July 27, 2012, 06:06:34 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 27, 2012, 05:56:08 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 27, 2012, 09:12:27 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 27, 2012, 02:42:06 AM
Quote from: Ali on July 26, 2012, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 26, 2012, 09:31:19 PM
Would you feel the same if the book was a virulently homophobic tract?
Isn't it though? ;D
I was just going to say that xD
Well,certainly all the Christian religions as far as I know do interpret it as classifying the practice of homosexuality as a sin. I suspect homophobia has been almost universal in all cultures until relatively recently. Scotland is due to become the first part of the UK to legalise gay marriages and that may represent a significant breakthrough in this part of the world.
I seriously thought gay marriage was already legal in the UK. Didn't Elton John marry his partner, or did I dream that up in some sort of magical piano and blingy sunglasses filled fantasy? (I'm not making fun; I freaking love Sir Elton.)
Civil union but not 'marriage' as such which will be the case over the next few years.
Ah! Huzzah for full marriage then! I always did like me some Scottish people.
ER,
homosexual acts as always been accepted in places like Greece, Japan, Sweden...
It has been said that the bonds between a man and a man can be considered sacred.
Even Buddhism accepts homosexual acts.
Samurai, Feudal lords, they all practiced it, even when they had wives and children.
(such as the Recusant mentioned.)
The only time it is not accepted it out of sheer ignorant, fear, and probably closeted self homosexuality.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 28, 2012, 12:57:12 AM
ER,
homosexual acts as always been accepted in places like Greece, Japan, Sweden...
It has been said that the bonds between a man and a man can be considered sacred.
Even Buddhism accepts homosexual acts.
Samurai, Feudal lords, they all practiced it, even when they had wives and children.
(such as the Recusant mentioned.)
The only time it is not accepted it out of sheer ignorant, fear, and probably closeted self homosexuality.
The exceptions are more numerous than I'd originally surmised. Buddhism at least in its original form is extremely compassionate , non- prescriptive and open- minded which is why I personally find much of it very appealing, shorn of any of its inessential mystic trappings such as karma . Given that it does not require belief in a supernatural being, I'm not convinced it should be labelled as a religion but rather as a philosophy of life.
Quote from: En_Route on July 28, 2012, 01:20:02 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 28, 2012, 12:57:12 AM
ER,
homosexual acts as always been accepted in places like Greece, Japan, Sweden...
It has been said that the bonds between a man and a man can be considered sacred.
Even Buddhism accepts homosexual acts.
Samurai, Feudal lords, they all practiced it, even when they had wives and children.
(such as the Recusant mentioned.)
The only time it is not accepted it out of sheer ignorant, fear, and probably closeted self homosexuality.
The exceptions are more numerous than I'd originally surmised. Buddhism at least in its original form is extremely compassionate , non- prescriptive and open- minded which is why I personally find much of it very appealing, shorn of any of its inessential mystic trappings such as karma . Given that it does not require belief in a supernatural being, I'm not convinced it should be labelled as a religion but rather as a philosophy of life.
Well, i suppose its labeled a religion because it follows the belief in a heaven/hell. Even though the idea of reincarnation exists, you can still end up in their version of hell, based on how you lived your life; which is pretty hard core.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 28, 2012, 12:57:12 AM
homosexual acts as always been accepted in places like Greece, Japan, Sweden...
It has been said that the bonds between a man and a man can be considered sacred.
Even Buddhism accepts homosexual acts.
Samurai, Feudal lords, they all practiced it, even when they had wives and children.
The only time it is not accepted it out of sheer ignorant, fear, and probably closeted self homosexuality.
Bisexuality is actually quite common in the animal kingdom. I suspect the reason why modern human sexuality seems to be polarized one way or the other is because of culture than because of anything else and religion definitely has a big part in culture. There of course could be a biologically predisposed normal distribution, i.e. there are men who naturally overwhelmingly prefer men over women or men who overwhelmingly prefer women over men. But it's possible there are a lot more people naturally in the grey area than modern societies might reflect. The idea that human sexuality might be more plastic than we assume is an issue that isn't getting the amount of research attention it deserves.
Anyway, more on topic, shouldn't they provide more classical texts? That way they don't have to change the books every now and then. Or maybe a travel guide on interesting places/ popular hangouts nearby. Although less Bibles is something I can support.
If the Giddy people have real faith in their book, they could subsidise the hotels to lay on a paid Bible channel on the room TVs, and leave porn mags in the drawers. This will obviously work. ;)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 28, 2012, 03:33:56 AM
Quote from: En_Route on July 28, 2012, 01:20:02 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 28, 2012, 12:57:12 AM
ER,
homosexual acts as always been accepted in places like Greece, Japan, Sweden...
It has been said that the bonds between a man and a man can be considered sacred.
Even Buddhism accepts homosexual acts.
Samurai, Feudal lords, they all practiced it, even when they had wives and children.
(such as the Recusant mentioned.)
The only time it is not accepted it out of sheer ignorant, fear, and probably closeted self homosexuality.
The exceptions are more numerous than I'd originally surmised. Buddhism at least in its original form is extremely compassionate , non- prescriptive and open- minded which is why I personally find much of it very appealing, shorn of any of its inessential mystic trappings such as karma . Given that it does not require belief in a supernatural being, I'm not convinced it should be labelled as a religion but rather as a philosophy of life.
Well, i suppose its labeled a religion because it follows the belief in a heaven/hell. Even though the idea of reincarnation exists, you can still end up in their version of hell, based on how you lived your life; which is pretty hard core.
Karma doesn't really work like that, because it is an ongoing process where actions continuously reshape awareness. So it's not a question of being doomed eternally. Bear in mind also that Western notions of the ego or separate, independent self do not apply either. The key insights of Buddhism in any event do not depend on
Karma, and one of the distinguishing marks of Buddhism is that in its original form anyway it is anti- dogmatic. You are free to accept or reject those parts of it you so wish on the basis of your own reflection and experience; what you are urged not to do is to accept anything on trust or rely blindly on authority including that of Buddha himself. So you can regard Karma as a metaphor or as a means of broadening ones perception of the individual as no more than a ripple in an ocean or simply disregard it. I am not evangelising on the part of Buddhism and I don't subscribe to its mystic elements but it is petfectly possible to be a full- on atheist and adopt much or most of its philosophy.
Quote from: Recusant on July 27, 2012, 06:04:21 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 27, 2012, 09:12:27 AM
I suspect homophobia has been almost universal in all cultures until relatively recently.
Many people point to certain themes in the culture of ancient Greece that seem to them to be accepting of what we describe as homosexuality. I myself find that suspect, because it involves an attempt to impose modern "Western" cultural understanding (which has been formed by many centuries of domination by Christianity) on a culture which is really alien at its heart.
I've seen some mention of traditional Japanese culture's acceptance of homosexuality. From what I've been able to find, most Amerind cultures not only accepted homosexuality, but the "two spirit" or berdache was generally a well respected and even powerful member of the tribe.
I haven't made a thorough study of this question, because it's only of passing interest to me, but I think it's likely that one could find other cultures in which the supposed "universal" homophobia does not exist.
It appears that homosexuality was not only practiced, but, was pretty much mandatory in Sparta.
Quote from: markmcdaniel on July 28, 2012, 11:01:35 AM
Quote from: Recusant on July 27, 2012, 06:04:21 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 27, 2012, 09:12:27 AM
I suspect homophobia has been almost universal in all cultures until relatively recently.
Many people point to certain themes in the culture of ancient Greece that seem to them to be accepting of what we describe as homosexuality. I myself find that suspect, because it involves an attempt to impose modern "Western" cultural understanding (which has been formed by many centuries of domination by Christianity) on a culture which is really alien at its heart.
I've seen some mention of traditional Japanese culture's acceptance of homosexuality. From what I've been able to find, most Amerind cultures not only accepted homosexuality, but the "two spirit" or berdache was generally a well respected and even powerful member of the tribe.
I haven't made a thorough study of this question, because it's only of passing interest to me, but I think it's likely that one could find other cultures in which the supposed "universal" homophobia does not exist.
It appears that homosexuality was not only practiced, but, was pretty much mandatory in Sparta.
I wonder if they had a Straight Rights Movement there?
Quote from: En_Route on July 28, 2012, 12:10:30 PM
Quote from: markmcdaniel on July 28, 2012, 11:01:35 AM
Quote from: Recusant on July 27, 2012, 06:04:21 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 27, 2012, 09:12:27 AM
I suspect homophobia has been almost universal in all cultures until relatively recently.
Many people point to certain themes in the culture of ancient Greece that seem to them to be accepting of what we describe as homosexuality. I myself find that suspect, because it involves an attempt to impose modern "Western" cultural understanding (which has been formed by many centuries of domination by Christianity) on a culture which is really alien at its heart.
I've seen some mention of traditional Japanese culture's acceptance of homosexuality. From what I've been able to find, most Amerind cultures not only accepted homosexuality, but the "two spirit" or berdache was generally a well respected and even powerful member of the tribe.
I haven't made a thorough study of this question, because it's only of passing interest to me, but I think it's likely that one could find other cultures in which the supposed "universal" homophobia does not exist.
It appears that homosexuality was not only practiced, but, was pretty much mandatory in Sparta.
I wonder if they had a Straight Rights Movement there?
They were to busy trying to be the biggest, most brutal fighters of there world. Homosexuality was part of building up bonds of brotherhood among fighting men.
Quote from: markmcdaniel on August 04, 2012, 07:28:23 AM
Quote from: En_Route on July 28, 2012, 12:10:30 PM
Quote from: markmcdaniel on July 28, 2012, 11:01:35 AM
Quote from: Recusant on July 27, 2012, 06:04:21 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 27, 2012, 09:12:27 AM
I suspect homophobia has been almost universal in all cultures until relatively recently.
Many people point to certain themes in the culture of ancient Greece that seem to them to be accepting of what we describe as homosexuality. I myself find that suspect, because it involves an attempt to impose modern "Western" cultural understanding (which has been formed by many centuries of domination by Christianity) on a culture which is really alien at its heart.
I've seen some mention of traditional Japanese culture's acceptance of homosexuality. From what I've been able to find, most Amerind cultures not only accepted homosexuality, but the "two spirit" or berdache was generally a well respected and even powerful member of the tribe.
I haven't made a thorough study of this question, because it's only of passing interest to me, but I think it's likely that one could find other cultures in which the supposed "universal" homophobia does not exist.
It appears that homosexuality was not only practiced, but, was pretty much mandatory in Sparta.
I wonder if they had a Straight Rights Movement there?
They were to busy trying to be the biggest, most brutal fighters of there world. Homosexuality was part of building up bonds of brotherhood among fighting men.
Seems the Uk and US military were missing a trick.
Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another.
Quote from: Will on August 05, 2012, 04:56:44 AM
Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another.
I may use this quote :)
Quote from: Will on August 05, 2012, 04:56:44 AM
Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another.
LOL so true :)
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 08:42:36 AM
Quote from: Will on August 05, 2012, 04:56:44 AM
Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another.
LOL so true :)
At least it's consistent.
Quote from: WillGreat, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi647.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu198%2FRamblingSyd%2FLaughing_RoflSmileyLJ.gif&hash=408f9683dd143fb3e0c4dfb36ccf4b0387222924)
I really, really like the effect 50SoG has had on the ability to discuss sex with women. It's unprecedented in my experience as a legitimate discussion topic. 'Have you read that book yet?' Bloody fantastic!
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 12:37:49 PM
I really, really like the effect 50SoG has had on the ability to discuss sex with women. It's unprecedented in my experience as a legitimate discussion topic. 'Have you read that book yet?' Bloody fantastic!
What you might call a captive audience.
Yes, only yesterday I was asking an old lady on the bus whether she preferred plastic or metal butt-plugs.
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 12:37:49 PM
I really, really like the effect 50SoG has had on the ability to discuss sex with women. It's unprecedented in my experience as a legitimate discussion topic. 'Have you read that book yet?' Bloody fantastic!
Please, i discuss sex all the time without losing my brain cells to bad 'literature.' :P
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 05, 2012, 05:58:28 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 12:37:49 PM
I really, really like the effect 50SoG has had on the ability to discuss sex with women. It's unprecedented in my experience as a legitimate discussion topic. 'Have you read that book yet?' Bloody fantastic!
Please, i discuss sex all the time without losing my brain cells to bad 'literature.' :P
That's not the point. You're of an age and culture and live in a city which is unique in it's liberal attitudes. There's a world outside NYC which is very different.
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 06:52:37 PM
I really, really like the effect 50SoG has had on the ability to discuss sex with women. It's unprecedented in my experience as a legitimate discussion topic. 'Have you read that book yet?' Bloody fantastic!
But what do you do if they look at you blankly and say "Have I read what?" If people on this forum weren't talking about it, I might think
50 Shades of Grey was a minimalist interior design how-to.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on August 05, 2012, 06:59:44 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 06:52:37 PM
I really, really like the effect 50SoG has had on the ability to discuss sex with women. It's unprecedented in my experience as a legitimate discussion topic. 'Have you read that book yet?' Bloody fantastic!
But what do you do if they look at you blankly and say "Have I read what?" If people on this forum weren't talking about it, I might think 50 Shades of Grey was a minimalist interior design how-to.
It depends on the person. Some I'll just say, oh go and have a look the next time you're in Sansbury's or Waterstones. ;D
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 07:08:48 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on August 05, 2012, 06:59:44 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 06:52:37 PM
I really, really like the effect 50SoG has had on the ability to discuss sex with women. It's unprecedented in my experience as a legitimate discussion topic. 'Have you read that book yet?' Bloody fantastic!
But what do you do if they look at you blankly and say "Have I read what?" If people on this forum weren't talking about it, I might think 50 Shades of Grey was a minimalist interior design how-to.
It depends on the person. Some I'll just say, oh go and have a look the next time you're in Sansbury's or Waterstones. ;D
The whole phenomenon is bizarre. It's on prominent display in airports, and people read it openly on the bus. In a country as prudish as we are, that's saying a lot. I've never seen anyone read anything erotica in public here till now.
Also, I read the first chapter and the writing sucked ;) (It was a free download)
Quote from: Firebird on August 05, 2012, 11:31:06 PM
Also, I read the first chapter and the writing sucked ;) (It was a free download)
That's the bad thing about erotica -- writers tend to be lazy with it because they assume sexy writes itself. It doesn't.