Happy Atheist Forum

Community => Parenting Beyond Belief => Topic started by: April on November 06, 2009, 07:40:38 PM

Title: scouts and kids
Post by: April on November 06, 2009, 07:40:38 PM
I am really not sure where to put this.  I would like some input.

I have never thought my 10 year old about god or Jesus, I figured that it would be best to let him make his own decisions later in life.  What I did not account for was that he is a kid.  Kids will believe what ever they are told when they are young like he is.  I am debating that maybe I should tell him my beliefs.  I am uneasy about telling him that there is no god for a few reasons.  One, because I would still like him to be able to make up his own mind later in life.  Two, that would be like telling him that there is no santa.  That all of his friends are wrong.  I know that he will say something like "my mom says that there is no such thing as god"  It would make him an outcast and I don't want to do that.  Being a parent is hard.

Okay, my son has been in scouts since the first grade.  This is "church based organization".  IMO they teach some valuable skills, life lessons, and builds great bonds.  Religion is not a big focus or anything.  But, it is embedded in the handbook.  The scout promise is "I, ____ promise to do my best, To do my duty to God and my country, to help other people, and to obey the Law of the pack".  I am really uneasy about this. There is a religious requirement as well.  I don't know what to do.  The pack is not strict so they have not said anything other than asking if he has met the requirements yet.  Actually, I think that his tiger den leader asked me , I said no, but he went ahead and marked it as yes.  Not to sure about that.  I have a feeling that the troop will not let me get away with it.

I would hate to pull him out of it just because it is a church base organization because he really enjoys it.  WWYD?
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: Renegnicat on November 06, 2009, 08:59:20 PM
Tough call. But I would have encouraged him to be skeptical of a lot of things from the get go. The fact that you haven't actually encouraged asking questions is not good.

But please, for the love of god, don't sacrifice him on the altar of post-modern parenting techniques. *hint hint* (Ironic, no?) :drool
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: LoneMateria on November 06, 2009, 09:23:12 PM
If you are really concerned about scouts why not just switch extra curricular activities on him.  Try Little League (T-ball?) or some sport like that.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: Wendy on November 06, 2009, 09:39:58 PM
I definitely think it is important to tell our children about god. When mine are a little older (they are 2 and 4 now) I want to tell them what "some people" believe. It's definitely not something I want them to learn from anyone else.

As for scouts...as much as I want them to think for themselves, if they came to me and wanted to be in scouts I would have to say no. In our area there is a big emphasis on god in scouts. It's not something I am comfortable with.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: April on November 06, 2009, 10:15:24 PM
Quote from: "LoneMateria"If you are really concerned about scouts why not just switch extra curricular activities on him.  Try Little League (T-ball?) or some sport like that.
He is in other extra curricular activities.  Scouts has so much more than t-ball (for example) such as camping, fire safety, knife safety, reading a compass, being a good citizen, ect.  Some of those things I would not be good at teaching.  I just learned that scouts has a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies against atheist and agnostics.  Sigh, I may just keep my mouth shut unless they start pushing it.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: Whitney on November 06, 2009, 10:51:04 PM
What about putting him in Camp Fire and sending him to Camp Quest?  Between the two it should cover much of what he is now learning in Boy Scouts minus the inclusion of god.

Personally, I would like Camp Quest to eventually become something like Boy Scouts (only that it would allow girls too); the problem with doing that is there are so few people right now who self describe as non-religious that it would be hard to get a troop together with enough people of a certain age group.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: LoneMateria on November 06, 2009, 11:04:16 PM
Quote from: "April"
Quote from: "LoneMateria"If you are really concerned about scouts why not just switch extra curricular activities on him.  Try Little League (T-ball?) or some sport like that.
He is in other extra curricular activities.  Scouts has so much more than t-ball (for example) such as camping, fire safety, knife safety, reading a compass, being a good citizen, ect.  Some of those things I would not be good at teaching.  I just learned that scouts has a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies against atheist and agnostics.  Sigh, I may just keep my mouth shut unless they start pushing it.

I was just giving you a suggestion since Renegnicat and now Wendy have represented my view.  I was trying to think of another way to help you ... you know give you some options.  Yes your kid is impressionable ... thats what evolution has dished us.  If you haven't taught your kid about the Christian God and don't feel comfortable doing it then ignoring the problem and hoping it doesn't come up isn't a good option, but if you decide to go that route replacing one activity where it almost certainly will come up with another activity where it might is an option.  At least in t-ball they can't kick your kid out for having atheist parents (i don't want to call your kid an atheist because I subscribe to Dawkins on that issue that the child is not an atheist child or a Christian child although the term atheist does apply to him).   Anyway its a tough decision but I dont advocate keeping my mouth shut in most situations (there are a few ... and only a few).    I know Whitney is associated with Camp Quest which seems like a secular Boy Scouts.  You should get in touch with her for options and locations ^_^

Scouts have had problems for years now with kicking out atheists, agnostics, and homosexuals.  This is because its run by the Mormon Church.  Because they are a private organization they have gotten away with it, however they are getting endorsed by our government which violates our separation of church and state and has been a big issue over the past few years.  What needs to happen is either they stop accepting government money and using government facilities or they need to let everyone who wants to join, join regardless of their affiliations.  Big issue and I can go on about it but I don't want to go OT.  I just saw you said you recently learned about the controversy.  Matt Dillahunty from the Atheist Experience and Non-Prophets Radio has a qualm about it and has some very good rants on the subject.  My siggie should link you there and you can look if you want.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: April on November 06, 2009, 11:40:35 PM
Camp quest looks great!  I wish we had one closer.  The closest one is a few hours away from us :(
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: Whitney on November 06, 2009, 11:44:17 PM
Quote from: "April"Camp quest looks great!  I wish we had one closer.  The closest one is a few hours away from us :(

Where are you located?  I don't know about the other camps, but we were going to try to charter a bus from major cities for the Texas camp (depending on how many people were interested).
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: April on November 07, 2009, 02:21:53 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"
Quote from: "April"Camp quest looks great!  I wish we had one closer.  The closest one is a few hours away from us :(

Where are you located?  I don't know about the other camps, but we were going to try to charter a bus from major cities for the Texas camp (depending on how many people were interested).

I am just out side of Louisville, KY.  The one in Ohio would be the closest for me.  If the money is there this summer we will probably send him.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: Sophus on November 08, 2009, 05:20:31 AM
Teach him to question and how to think (not what to think) but please, please, please... don't take him away from something he enjoys.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: jrosebud on November 08, 2009, 09:05:24 PM
Part of making up one's mind about the big issues is knowing which options are out there.  If the main ones he finds out about are different sects of Christianity from his peers, that might be the direction he will go out of default.

I have an eight-year-old daughter.  We have a family of Hindus next door, she has a boy in her class who is a Muslim, and her best friend is culturally Jewish (though he tells her that he doesn't believe in a god).  Other than that, almost all the kids she knows come from Christian families, as we live in Texas.

We didn't really mention much about the concept of gods to her until she started Kindergarten and it became a topic amongst her peers.  Rather than sheilding her from it, we introduced her to a lot of different religions and philosophies by saying "some people believe..."  I talk about the reasons why they have these beliefs and both the good and not-so-great consequences of such ideas.

I've also emphasized science so that she'lll lknow the natural explanations for the wonders of the universe.  She has the awe and appreciation of how we're all connected without having to resort to supernatural ideas of togetherness.  And she won't be duped by the "god of the gaps" sort of thinking that people who aren't familiar with the scientific way of thinking tend to use.

Most importantly, I think, is how we've guided her moral compass.  We teach her to think through how each of her actions affect those around her.  And that rules aren't always to be followed in all situations.  So far I think it's working.  She's incredibly empathetic.

(will start a new post because this is getting long and the text box is doing something wonky)
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: jrosebud on November 08, 2009, 09:37:04 PM
It's important not to indoctrinate children (that's where we differ from a lot of religious folks), but most parenting for nonbelievers gurus don't say a whole lot on what we should tell our kids about *our* beliefs.  If we don't give them any kind of direction, they feel lost.  Guidance isn't the same as indoctrination.  My best friend grew up in a family with an Atheistic dad and a spiritual I-worship-the-trees kind of mother who didn't say much of anything to their children about religion except for the occasional "That's crap" from the dad.  J is now Agnostic and feels a bit lost.  Her little sister is a born again Christian who told her dad that he's going to Hell some day because of his lack of belief.  She grabbed onto the first bit of structure that came along because she didn't have a philosophy to follow that gave her any sort of direction or meaning that she needed.

I tell my daughter what I think about gods, religion, and various philsophies and why.  And I let other people with whom she's really close tell her about their beliefs.  (Grandma is Catholic.  She and Jessie adore each other.)  I let her know that everyone gets to have their own opinions on the subject, and that people can change their minds as many times as they'd like.  And that I'll always love her, no matter what she thinks.  (And that we can both love Grandma, even if we don't like some of her ideas.)

Jessie tells me that she's an Atheist right now.  It's not true - she still believes in Santa.  (Or, at least, she's having doubts, but hanging onto the illlusion.  I'm glad that we did the Santa thing because she knows how it feels to believe something that's not true.  And that stories can have meaning without being true.)  When she encounters death, she likes to think that there's an afterlife.

She's proud about her beliefs because she feels that she owns them.  She's thought about them a lot (at least for a kid).  And when given the choice in school and at Girl Scouts, she leaves out the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegience and replaces the word "God" with "my world" in the Girl Scout Promise.

As for her being an outcast, at this point most of the kids in her class know that she doesn't believe in their god.  And while a few of them are jerks about it, she has a lot of friends.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: jrosebud on November 08, 2009, 09:48:47 PM
So - Boy Scouts.  You're in a tough position.  Your son loves the activies and has made friends there.  Pulling him out would take away both a situation where he can be proud of what he's accomplished and would break some of the bonds he's forged.

Have you asked him what he thinks about the subject of god?  If he doesn't believe in anything supernatural, does he think that it's more important to be honest or to fib to go around an unjust rule?  (He could always pretend that "god" is the sum total of everything in the universe.  There are so many definitions for the world; his wouldn't have to include the personal god aspect.)

How do you feel about supporting a group that discriminates against Atheists and gay people?  Does it bother you?  Or do you feel like you're inadvertantly getting them to support Atheists (because they're spending their time and money on an Atheist's son)?

If leaving the kids in the troup isn't a big deal, is it possible to find a Camp Fire Scouts group in your area?  They welcome both boy and girls of all philosophies.  And they do most of the things that are taught in Boy Scouts.

Good luck with your decision.  It's so tough being a parent.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: April on November 09, 2009, 06:55:05 AM
It does bother me being apart of an organization that discriminates.  Did you all know that they call it the "3gs"?  Girls, gays, and the godless are not welcome to become boy scouts.  The thing is that I did not realize that religion was embedded so deeply when I signed him up.  I learned quickly that God and religion was apart of scouts, but it didn't bother me.  I didn't see it any differently than God being in the pledge of allegiance. I have put forth a lot of effort for them.  I am on the fun raising committee, I am the popcorn kernel, and I am even the den leader for the Bear den.  This year, when I was "voluntold" to become a leader is when I found out about the Declaration of Religious Principle for the leaders.  I asked about it.  I told the him (one of the higher ups) that I am not religious.  He said that was okay.  You do not have to attend church to be a leader.  It did not dawn on me right away that he assumed that I did believe in God, I just didn't go to church.  He has made friends with the boys and enjoys it.  I do not want to pull him out, but I don't want to go threw the leader training saying that I am going to teach them all about God either.  

There is a Camp Fire group in Louisville (I am in Southern Indiana).  I was talking to my DH about it, but he does not think it is a good idea.  We barely have time to get him to the meetings when they are held within walking distance from my house.  Plus, all of his friends are in his pack.  I am going to look into it more when it is time to graduate from the cub scouts to the boy scouts.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: Tanker on November 09, 2009, 01:24:23 PM
I'm not a parent but I was a boy once...and in the scouts even. I can tell you what my mom did. My mom never told my brother or I what or how to believe. She would answer any and all of our questions openly and honestly and never tried to talk us out of anything that was not overtly unhealty or dangerous. I was a scout when I was a kid, even vaguely a christian and all I can remember was  her being supportive and again answering any questions I had. In fact my mother was so noncomital about religion I didn't learn she was an Atheist until I was 21 or 22 (im 26 now). I had always figured she belived in a god just not a religion. The end result of my brother and I being left in a religious vacume when we were growing up was we were forced to think for ourselves and use our own unbiased (as far as that goes anyhow) opinions regarding religion. Independently, as my brother and I weren't close, we found Atheism to be the most reasonable and logical position.

Go figure when left to decide for ourselves without indoctrination Atheism was the most reasonable.

As for the dealing with the overt Christian nature of the scouts I would go with the old Atheist standard and not volunteer inforamation on you beliefs and be as vague as possible when asked.
Title: Re: scouts and kids
Post by: TheOGMamaBear on November 14, 2009, 03:18:56 AM
Tough call.

I have no answers. All I know is that my outdoorsman hubby thinks the scouts are a joke.

lol. But he's weird.