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What would it take for you (a creationist) to...

Started by BadPoison, June 15, 2009, 10:25:08 PM

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BadPoison

What would it take for you (a creationist) to accept evolution as more likely?

And since we may be running short on creationists, feel free to play devil's advocate.
 ;)

Whitney

Well, I have had a Christian tell me that God would have to tell him evolution was real.  So, for some, it would take divine intervention.  I hope that is not a common answer from the ones who do not currently accept evolution.

Squid

It would take them disposing of their usual psychological reactance to overwhelming evidence and lightening up on a literal interpretation of the bible for many along with seeing there as being no conflict between their faith and the scientific theory.  Anything contrary to deeply held beliefs will almost surely be met with defensiveness, anxiety, anger and aggression...it's a fairly natural reaction.  However, many people can make use of our wonderful frontal lobes and use reason to understand the world better rather than see it as we want it to be.

Godschild

Quote from: "Whitney"Well, I have had a Christian tell me that God would have to tell him evolution was real. So, for some, it would take divine intervention. I hope that is not a common answer from the ones who do not currently accept evolution.

Most if not all creationist are christians or other believers of the God of the Holy Bible so it will be a common answer among us.However as far as Intelligent Design goes you may find some that would switch without a revelation from God.Intelligent Design is not creation,creation came about by the Truine God of the Bible,I.D. is not defined to the exclusiveness of the God of the Bible.

Squid

Quote from: "Godschild"
Quote from: "Whitney"Well, I have had a Christian tell me that God would have to tell him evolution was real. So, for some, it would take divine intervention. I hope that is not a common answer from the ones who do not currently accept evolution.

Most if not all creationist are christians or other believers of the God of the Holy Bible so it will be a common answer among us.However as far as Intelligent Design goes you may find some that would switch without a revelation from God.Intelligent Design is not creation,creation came about by the Truine God of the Bible,I.D. is not defined to the exclusiveness of the God of the Bible.

Well, if you ask Behe (one of the biggest proponents of ID), it is the Christian God BUT such an idea is also supported by people like the Raelians since it jives with their alien/genetic engineering idea of creation.  William Paley's ideas are still alive and well in the 21st century....and that's sad.

Whitney

Quote from: "Godschild"
Quote from: "Whitney"Well, I have had a Christian tell me that God would have to tell him evolution was real. So, for some, it would take divine intervention. I hope that is not a common answer from the ones who do not currently accept evolution.

Most if not all creationist are christians or other believers of the God of the Holy Bible so it will be a common answer among us.However as far as Intelligent Design goes you may find some that would switch without a revelation from God.Intelligent Design is not creation,creation came about by the Truine God of the Bible,I.D. is not defined to the exclusiveness of the God of the Bible.

Yes, that's because the Judeo-Christian-Muslim holy texts seem to be the only religious books that some people have interpreted to be at odds with science.  The Muslims have gotten smart and many are now trying to claim that  there is science in the Koran...those attempts can be interesting to say the least.

Imo, ID is just a fancy way to say that god did it...the intelligent designer could be an alien; but I seriously doubt many proponents of ID want us to mention that fact very often.

I heard a new term the other day...Creatoevolutionist.  I guess that's what some Christians who accept evolution are calling themselves to make sure they aren't mistaken for atheists....pretty silly if you ask me.

99% of the Christians I know in person are not Biblical literalists and have no problem accepting evolution...they don't even bother mentioning ID because they know evolution has nothing to do with origins.

JillSwift

Every creationist I've ever discussed this with treats the subject not as a matter of knowledge or belief but as a matter of morality.

It's rooted deeply in the idea that man is moral because god enforces a moral code, of which god is the source. They see evolution as an attempt to push god out of the picture for the sole purpose of freeing ourselves from that moral code so we don't have to feel guilty about being hedonists (or some variation of that).

I do not think it's a matter of convincing anyone of the validity of the theory, but convincing them that it has no impact on morality.
[size=50]Teleology]

BadPoison

Quote from: "JillSwift"I do not think it's a matter of convincing anyone of the validity of the theory, but convincing them that it has no impact on morality.
I'm not so sure. It's been suggested that morals in society have come about through a sort of Darwinian evolution as well.

JillSwift

Quote from: "BadPoison"
Quote from: "JillSwift"I do not think it's a matter of convincing anyone of the validity of the theory, but convincing them that it has no impact on morality.
I'm not so sure. It's been suggested that morals in society have come about through a sort of Darwinian evolution as well.
Sure, morals are an extension of our social instincts.

Which is why the theory of evolution itself does not impact the question of mortality.  Evolution simply describes an ongoing process, and in itself does not hold meaning for morals one way or the other - it doesn't even preclude a god as a law-giver. (Plenty of other things do that.)
[size=50]Teleology]

perspective

I would believe in evolution if there was proof of it, but sadly there is not. Plan and simple, the evolution theory lacks the appropriate amount of evidence to propel it into reality. Therefore, I choose to live in reality and accept what good science tells me. If evolution were true (as-in proven without possiblity of denial) then we wouldn't be typing on this forum right now. Does anyone deny gravity? If evolution was as solid as gravity then I would love to join the ranks. Unfortunatly I think to critically to accept something with so many holes blown in it. Something like that can't be the sail of my ship.

curiosityandthecat

Quote from: "perspective"I would believe in evolution if there was proof of it, but sadly there is not. Plan and simple, the evolution theory lacks the appropriate amount of evidence to propel it into reality. Therefore, I choose to live in reality and accept what good science tells me. If evolution were true (as-in proven without possiblity of denial) then we wouldn't be typing on this forum right now. Does anyone deny gravity? If evolution was as solid as gravity then I would love to join the ranks. Unfortunatly I think to critically to accept something with so many holes blown in it. Something like that can't be the sail of my ship.
Dude, do you even try to learn about it? Here's the link I mentioned in the other thread about guppies. Evolution is a fact that's just not testable in a lab using a natural timeline. Do you deny what materials make up the sun or other stars too far away for us to take an actual sample? The same sort of science is used. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
-Curio

PipeBox

Ah, the old "If evolution actually happened, I wouldn't be able to say it didn't!"  That doesn't logically follow . . . Trying to understand evolution, a multi-faceted, complex mechanism of nature, is a tad more difficult than understanding that you're tethered to the Earth by gravity.  One is a simple fact.  A person may believe the world is flat until you show them a few pictures of it from orbit, then it's pretty much a done deal they accept it.  Let me illustrate:

Misconception: The Earth is flat.
Method of correction: Demonstrate the singular fact that it is not.

Best part?  Some people still say the Earth is flat.  This is only one fact, that you can observe for yourself if you like (go out to sea and watch ships disappear below the horizon), and yet people can brazenly claim that we're all deceived by a global conspiracy of airline pilots and scientists.  You know why some of them do it?  Because the Earth is described as flat in the Bible, figuratively many Christians would say, but flat nonetheless.  Many more Christians (relatively) will argue that the Earth is stationary in space.  They are literally modern geocentrists.  They believe NASA is trying to use heliocentrism as a base for endorsing all other "corrupt" scientific theory, right up to evolution.  You know this is ridiculous, but they sure don't.  They think they're the few that can see the world as it is.  Anyway, this is what can happen even when you try to tell someone a singular fact that they believe challenges their holy book.  So let's look at what we need you to learn to understand evolution -- it sure isn't coming to you in a nifty snapshot, or personal direct experience with the capacity for lay observation (gravity).

Misconception:  Evolution isn't really happening.
Method of correction:  Teach the capacity of natural selection to act upon inherited genes and mutations.  The person must then realize this is all evolution is.  If they object from a lack of understanding mutation, teach them about that (this is the typical creationist downfall).  If they think it sounds reasonable, but say it didn't ever happen in nature, show them the branching hierarchy of inherited traits, and utilize comparative anatomy to show the similarities between even the most seemingly-unrelated life.  Knowledge of taxonomy helps: the classification is in the order of evolutionary development (it just doesn't describe every last change), and it was created by Carl Linnaeus, a devout Christian creationist (who classified us as primates, and then said we should wonder why God made us so similar to the other primates).  Show them the genetic similarities, including inherited, same-positioned, endogenous retro-viruses.  Show them the atavisms (archaic, ancestral, and only ancestral, features normally absent in the distant descendants:  Chickens with teeth, humans with tails, humans with extreme body-wide hair growth, and so many more.  You'll never see birds growing hair, or dolphins growing feathers because those traits never developed on their evolutionary path.  You will, however, sometimes find whales with hind leg bones, because their ancestors walked on land, same with dolphins.  Incidentally, they're also the only "fish" with nostrils that also lactate, and no other "fish" occasionally manifests atavistic leg bones, though a few lungfish can walk on their flippers even now).  Show them the massive dormant genes that are composed of archaic, now unused, DNA.  Show them the predictions evolutionary theory makes (like where and how deep to dig to find a fossil with certain traits, or what basal forms we should find to give rise to extant life).  Introduce them to botany, because animals aren't the only things that evolve, and plants are evolving all throughout the fossil record, and are absent in strata outside their era, too just like animals (you can't say they ran from the flood waters; they shouldn't be buried in different layers if they all were created in the same 24 hours).  If they don't accept evolution after hearing all the evidence (and they can only admit it accounts for it -- if it doesn't, they should go tear it up in a scientific journal, because scientists are trying to determine how the world works, not construct a fantasy world), and if they just ignore the scientific theory that accounts for it all -- the ERVs, morphologic and genetic similarities, atavisms, layout of the fossil record, massive differences in radiological dating of various fossils, and ongoing mutation and natural selection (evolution) in the world today -- just walk away disappointed.

True, you don't have to do all of that, if the person is willing to tentatively accept it and continue research on their own.  I was, if you prefer, gullible:  When I first learned of evolution, it wasn't so much as mentioned that our species evolved.  My 6th grade teacher actually went so far as to imply we didn't, only everything else.  I left the class thinking "Wow, so that's why so many plants are green.  That's why we look like apes.  That's why all the breeds of dog look alike."  I was still full of misconceptions at the time, but it made sense, intuitively.  I always had difficulty with how God made the universe in 144 hours.  I could not understand how.  Evolution was a method which he could have used to diversify life that I could understand.  I couldn't begin to imagine a method of near-instantaneous creation, and I wasn't witnessing the ongoing presence of a power like that;  new things were not popping into existence each day, even new planets and stars were not created on the fly.  I was seeing the presence of a genius God, who had a system for doing things.  A universe that created what he required, as surely as he created it.  Incidentally, I never found a refutation of this belief in the Bible.  Genesis says that God commanded the earth to bring forth life, and that we were created in the joint image of God and nature.  It explicitly said to me that God liked his naturally-ordered universe.  After all, why would he bother with methods of natural creation if he was then gonna do it all himself?  I figured God would like it better like this, like we see it happen now, and that he had the capacity to make such a system, so he would!  I mean, he's God, right!  

Anyway, I've gotten a tad off-topic.  Your skepticism in regards to evolution is as good as skepticism toward anything else, but if the only way you would accept it is if God came and told you in person, you're doing it wrong.  Even if there is a biblical God, he never operated like that, telling people the answer to any arbitrary query.  He created a universe that gave rise to life, and intelligence, and language, and books for you to read so that he wouldn't have to do it in person.  That's the way I saw it.  Evolution is far too deep, too complex, for me to give you a hammer-time stop, especially if you don't want to accept it.  That is why you can still claim that it's hogwash.  You think it clashes with Christianity, and you haven't been given a deep review over it.  If you asked me how to factor a trig problem without just claiming there was an answer, but we weren't meant to understand it, and I worked it out for you and gave the answer, and you then asked me to prove that each step in the factorization was legitimate and you told me I had to reduce math to its logical proofs for each operation, then we'd be in the same place.  I'm not trying to answer 2 + 2 for you, here.  We're factoring trig and you're free to doubt every step of the factorization.  That is how you can continue telling us that we don't know, because you cannot readily see that we do.  Incidentally, you don't believe that trig should be unknowable, but you do believe our origin should be ineffable, and you're not alone, you have lots of support from other people who feel the same way.  That's OK, I'll keep offering you all the evidence I can.

Peace.
If sin may be committed through inaction, God never stopped.

My soul, do not seek eternal life, but exhaust the realm of the possible.
-- Pindar

Recusant

Quote from: "PipeBox"Ah...

Beautiful post, sir!
I commend your eloquence, and the thought you put into it.  It may just be "alot of words, not really convincing" to some, but I think it's well written, and even if the person I quoted just now has stopped his ears, there may be others who are willing to listen.  Thus, in my opinion, it was well worth the effort.  

 :livelong:
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


PipeBox

Thank you, it's good to know someone reads the wall-sized paragraphs.  I'd make 'em shorter, but I don't know where to break to keep 'em smaller.  Anyway, I'm sure it's worth the effort, and even if it weren't, I have a really comfortable keyboard.   :)
If sin may be committed through inaction, God never stopped.

My soul, do not seek eternal life, but exhaust the realm of the possible.
-- Pindar

MonstersInsideMe

This topic in general really bothers me.  It's definitely possible to believe in evolution and still be Christian.  The two are not against each other AT ALL, except in people's minds.  I am a Christian majoring in biology and I know a lot of Christians who are majoring in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology.  The beliefs do not contradict each other, though people who are close-minded and uneducated might not understand.
I have you confused now, but let me explain.  I know science.  Science is all about explaining the HOW of things; explaining observations of the world around us.  Religion answers the WHY.  I believe that all creatures evolved from a single multi-celled organism because of the evidence.  I believe that God facilitated that evolution, whereas many other scientists aim to explain why sudden "random" mutations occurred.  

I'm actually reading about the prebiotic soup where molecules for some reason came together to form amino acids and it has been found that the only way this could have happened was forthe monomers to be incubated with mineral particles found in clay and mud in order to avoid hydrolysis.  And this reminded me of a story I had heard many times that was familiar to me.
Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostril the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
When I began studying evolution I thought that it was going to try and destroy my beliefs and instead it complimented them. I believe in my heart (brain if we're being scientific) that God created everything and science shows me HOW.

Therefore, when I see posts that pit evolution against creationism, it saddens me and actually kind of hurts.  I think its the whole "they" that makes me think people are saying, "they think in their ignorance..." I know nothing is going to change, but it hurts knowing that people attack my faith like this and I'm so sorry that many Christians do attack science and evolution.

I'm sorry that this was a really long post, but its my first one here, and if I stay awhile and you get to know me, you will find that I talk A LOT. And, as its my first post here, I really feel that I should say, it's not a war of beliefs; I'm not going to try and shove Jesus down your throat and I hope that I am not criticized in return. I'd say that the world isn't black and white, but I think Sirius says it better: "The world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters"(Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix). I really look forward to getting to know some of you here and don't be afraid to PM me and introduce yourselves! Peace!

~Amanda~