Happy Atheist Forum

The science has been there to prove evolution , the age of the earth etc for years now .
And yet places like America are still entrenched in the dark ages of superstition and religion.
The world is still in most parts lost in illusion , floundering in the dark.
How can this be ,?? is religion so big and powerful we can't stop it,??
Are we the Atheists just not stepping up to the plate and letting rip,??
What do we have to do to get through to these people.?
Do we need to form our own political party and lobby to have the laws changed,?
Web sites like this one are certainly a step in the right direction.
I have been doing this Atheist blog thing for about 6 years and have found little support or agreement on any of the sites. I tried expressing my Atheism on the dating sites , and it didn't get me many dates. Atheists are still seen by most societies as extremists,
and are not really welcomed by main stream society.
What can we do to change this.???

From what I have read gen y is practically 50 percent non-religious and the overall percentage of non-religious/atheist people in america is growing quickly too

I don't really see why evolution or the age of the earth should make anyone an atheist but from my experience almost anyone who has made it through college in the last 10 years knows that evolution is valid and the earth is really really old.

All we can do is be ourselves and calmly try to confront those who carry prejudices.

As fro laws...the ACLU and Secular Coalition seem to be doing a pretty good job of combatting areas of the law that need to be brought into public attention.  However, I don't necessarily think there are many laws I'd put at the top of my to do list.

Unless you are in the deep south I'm not sure how you can think America is in the dark ages...sure there are a bunch of nitwits with loud voices but not so many that it's suffocating.  Even Texas has a strong network of freethinkers/atheists who are able to openly interact with their communities.

Welcome Godfree, that is a good name.
I'd like to see some humour aimed at theism such as Monty Python and Douglas Adams did years ago.
Religion is so ridiculous, it should supply libraries of books, armies of comedians and many movies with material.

Why not more atheists?  Perhaps we worry about more important things.  Perhaps we hold our opinions about god(s) close in order to avoid social opprobrium.  Perhaps because we don't tend to be evangelistic (with some sad exceptions) we don't get so noticed.  

I'm pretty sure that there are more atheists in America than the 14% [max] indicated by some polls.

At any rate, hail and well-met.

Thank you for the warm welcome , I'm delighted to be here , I have struggled to find places to express myself as an Atheist , usually resorting to dating site forums and talk back radio.
I was on the Sam Harris "The Reason Project" , which I enjoyed.
I would describe myself as a pro-active Atheist . Here in New Zealand we have about 50% religious . Our previous and current Prime Minister , do not believe in god. So for all of this century NZ has been lead by a non believer. How far away is America from having an Atheist president???, politics and religion are still not separated as the term secular would suggest.
Even here in NZ we have charitable trusts promoting religion using tax payers money.
Millions of $. Probably billions in America if you have the same 60% tax return on charitable donations.
So I get a little suspicious , and wonder just how much we are being deceived. Secular??
I don't know how we can call ourselves secular when government is funding religion??
I'm even suspicious about the "Big Bang" why they keep insisting that "Time " began with this bang makes me think it's a piece of religious propaganda.
I agree religion is laughable , but I tend to use terms like irrational.

Quote from: "Godfree"I agree religion is laughable , but I tend to use terms like irrational.

OK, but thanks for sharing John Clarke anyway.

QuoteOn the other hand Our Lord might just
Have had a Scottish mother. There's a nice
Sardonic touch about creating both
Life and Glasgow in the same week.
The reading today is from the second book of Laing.
Life is a sexually-transmitted disease
With a one hundred per cent mortality rate.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/poetica/featur ... clarke.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/poetica/features/pod/poets/clarke.htm)

Hello, and welcome to HAF, Godfree.  I think that simple sociological inertia is all we need to explain the prevalence of theism in the US.  Things are changing, though, as Whitney pointed out, and as has been documented in recent surveys (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm).

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"...Perhaps because we don't tend to be evangelistic (with some sad exceptions) we don't get so noticed.

There is at least one Atheist Evangelist (http://www.samsingleton.com/Foyer.html) who's no cause for sadness.  (This is for you too, The Magic Pudding!)

 [youtube:1as722qy]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JloO47PZf5k[/youtube:1as722qy]

(EDIT:  Too many videos in this post, so I trimmed it.  You can find more Brother Sam on youtube.)

Quote from: "Recusant"There is at least one Atheist Evangelist (http://www.samsingleton.com/Foyer.html) who's no cause for sadness.  (This is for you too, The Magic Pudding!)  

Ye, he's got my vote.

Why are there not more atheists?  To be simple, I'd say it's in part because there are a lot more idiots (literally).

Obviously, it varies from place to place, but do a search on the average IQ by country.  The results are pretty interesting-some of the countries with the higher average IQ's are also countries with higher rates of atheism.  Statistics would also indicate that there are higher rates of atheism among the intelligent and the the educated as well.  When you think about it that way, it does make sense.  The world is populated mostly with people of average or below average intelligence who don't have access to education and who aren't as likely to ask the kind of questions that lead an atheist to arriving at the conclusion that there is no god.

There are loads of atheists, you just have to be in the right place. This survey deals with the UK http://www.vexen.co.uk/UK/religion.html (http://www.vexen.co.uk/UK/religion.html)

... in a word: Marketing.

Think of it like computer operating systems...

Why is Windows so popular?  Why not Unix?

Windows has a concerted marketing effort behind it.  It propagates because there is a focused, driving force.
Unix, while it may be "superior", is splintered and has many different foci.
That is its power, and its downfall.

Ultimately, Unix has found a wide following.  But it is not as well known and didn't experience the meteoric growth that Windows did.  Apple adopting it has helped somewhat.

And speaking of Apple, I think you'll see the same thing happening with the iPad.
There are a slew of better Android based tablets about to hit the market.
They're more powerful, have more features, and potentially cost less.
Yet they have an uphill battle against the focused marketing might of Apple.

... Apple says you don't need Flash, USB, Camera, Replaceable Battery, Reading in Sunlight, Expandable Memory... Things that other tablets had 10 years ago.  But people buy the products in droves.

Why?

Marketing.

(IMHO),
JoeActor

joeactor ,  I am running Linux  Puppy  4.3 , I have a dual boot so I can do windows stuff if I need to , on my other computer I have Ubuntu studio , dual booted with something called tiny xp , I managed to get my xp and tiny xp for free , xp is legal because the old computer had on the box the code for xp , but I don't go online with it .
The IFAD , what a load of rubbish , the introduction of the disposable computer and the world flocks to it like it was gold . Hell people are stupid , it's no wonder religion has such an easy time ripping people off .
So that would be something to take to the human rights commission ,
Surely taking advantage of the ignorance of people and selling them heaven , which is obviously something they can't deliver , should be against the law. Most businesses have to prove their product works. Why not religion , in this secular world , why is it that religion has special laws just for it???, these special laws were given in the time of colonization , which is now illegal , seems like we could challenge those special deals as also being illegal...

Quote from: "Godfree"joeactor ,  I am running Linux  Puppy  4.3

Yeah... Go Linux!
(still using VI to edit my web site - even on Win7)

Quote from: "Godfree"The IFAD , what a load of rubbish , the introduction of the disposable computer and the world flocks to it like it was gold .

Ah, but it does sell, yes?

Quote from: "Godfree"Most businesses have to prove their product works. Why not religion , in this secular world , why is it that religion has special laws just for it???, these special laws were given in the time of colonization , which is now illegal , seems like we could challenge those special deals as also being illegal...

Although religions can't prove their product works, they can easily prove their business model works.  They make enough money to stay in operation (and then some), and have managed to get the laws altered to their favor.  Other businesses have done the same.  Tax breaks, subsidies, and special considerations are everywhere.

It's probably easier in the USA to keep a church afloat than it is to keep a restaurant going.  Amazing since we have to have food on a daily basis.  Seems like some level of the supernatural is seen as a necessity by most of the population.

Dianetics anyone?,
JoeActor

Quote from: "Recusant"[youtube:3onk0hds]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JloO47PZf5k[/youtube:3onk0hds]

Shameless plug...If you want to meet Brother Sam come to the Texas Freethought Convention in October.  

ok..you may carry on now.

So it's all because they're stupid eh.
So Catholics give away those wafers that probably taste crap.
So what should an atheist evangelist give away, a fish oil capsule?

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"So it's all because they're stupid eh.
So Catholics give away those wafers that probably taste crap.
So what should an atheist evangelist give away, a fish oil capsule?

A Catholic acquaintance of the family is gluten intolerant and can't eat the communion wafers so she palms them, pockets them and ives them to her dog when she gets home. So she either doesn't trust God to transmute the wafer or she's feeding God to her doG!

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"armies of comedians

Bill Maher. He's cool.

I get the feeling you guys are here to have fun , and NOT take over the world,,,what is wrong with you , were is the ruthless desire for world domination , bloody hell ,
I have seen some funny Atheists ,
James Burk did a series called the Neuron Suite
hes a bit like Richard Dawkins and Billy Connoly mixed,
wake me when your ready to launch the ATTACK

Quote from: "Godfree"wake me when your ready to launch the ATTACK

We do have to be careful you know.  
They have guns, are theoretically unafraid to die, and god has put a price on our heads.
And don't underestimate the value of poking fun at the popes hat.
I heard someone suggest his shoes were Prada, "Devil Wears Prada", pretty subversive.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 218136.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4218136.ece)

Quote from: "Godfree"I get the feeling you guys are here to have fun , and NOT take over the world,,,what is wrong with you , were is the ruthless desire for world domination , bloody hell ,
I have seen some funny Atheists ,
James Burk did a series called the Neuron Suite
hes a bit like Richard Dawkins and Billy Connoly mixed,
wake me when your ready to launch the ATTACK

I will attack a steak done medium-rare and a couple of bottles of Newcastle.  I have no interest in convincing anyone that my faithlessness should be their worldview.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Godfree"I get the feeling you guys are here to have fun , and NOT take over the world,,,what is wrong with you , were is the ruthless desire for world domination , bloody hell ,
I have seen some funny Atheists ,
James Burk did a series called the Neuron Suite
hes a bit like Richard Dawkins and Billy Connoly mixed,
wake me when your ready to launch the ATTACK

I will attack a steak done medium-rare and a couple of bottles of Newcastle.  I have no interest in convincing anyone that my faithlessness should be their worldview.

I'm with you on the steak and beer, and a salad please.  But, I actually do want to convince the world that religion is evil and that we would be so much better off without it.  But I seriously doubt that will ever happen in my lifetime.

As for the OP, I think there are a LOT of closet atheists in the world, particularly in America.  A lot of people continue to go to Church as a social event, not because they truly believe.  There is also a lot of pressure on Americans to profess their faith, particularly in the South.  My wife put it best when she was shocked when she moved South from Pittsburgh and the first thing people would ask her is what church she goes to.  She was pissed.... and said so...

Quote from: "Martin TK"There is also a lot of pressure on Americans to profess their faith, particularly in the South.  My wife put it best when she was shocked when she moved South from Pittsburgh and the first thing people would ask her is what church she goes to.  She was pissed.... and said so...

I had the same experience when I moved to the south.  Sales of houses are posted in the local paper.  As soon as one moves in to one's home, the church ladies (and gentlemen) start ringing the door bell.  There is real competition between churches for new members because with members comes an increase in donations and subscription fees.  We have lived here for 7 years now, and the number of people ringing our door bell has decreased from two a week to about one per month.

Quote from: "notself"

Quote from: "Martin TK"There is also a lot of pressure on Americans to profess their faith, particularly in the South.  My wife put it best when she was shocked when she moved South from Pittsburgh and the first thing people would ask her is what church she goes to.  She was pissed.... and said so...

I had the same experience when I moved to the south.  Sales of houses are posted in the local paper.  As soon as one moves in to one's home, the church ladies (and gentlemen) start ringing the door bell.  There is real competition between churches for new members because with members comes an increase in donations and subscription fees.  We have lived here for 7 years now, and the number of people ringing our door bell has decreased from two a week to about one per month.

I swear I could not live in a place like that. It would drive me around the bend! It is useful to understand the differentiation in the US though. I may well end up back there on business at some time in the future and if that is the case you can be sure I'll be asking questions to make sure I don't put my foot in it!

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "notself"

Quote from: "Martin TK"There is also a lot of pressure on Americans to profess their faith, particularly in the South.  My wife put it best when she was shocked when she moved South from Pittsburgh and the first thing people would ask her is what church she goes to.  She was pissed.... and said so...

I had the same experience when I moved to the south.  Sales of houses are posted in the local paper.  As soon as one moves in to one's home, the church ladies (and gentlemen) start ringing the door bell.  There is real competition between churches for new members because with members comes an increase in donations and subscription fees.  We have lived here for 7 years now, and the number of people ringing our door bell has decreased from two a week to about one per month.

I swear I could not live in a place like that. It would drive me around the bend! It is useful to understand the differentiation in the US though. I may well end up back there on business at some time in the future and if that is the case you can be sure I'll be asking questions to make sure I don't put my foot in it!

I love the State and the people are like people everywhere except for the rigid religions and political beliefs.  Stay away from those two subjects and it's fine.  Of course this is hard to do when people occasionally ask you if you are a Christian.  Now I just say that I am not religious but my entire family is.  It's the truth and it seems to satisfy the casual inquiry.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "notself"

Quote from: "Martin TK"There is also a lot of pressure on Americans to profess their faith, particularly in the South.  My wife put it best when she was shocked when she moved South from Pittsburgh and the first thing people would ask her is what church she goes to.  She was pissed.... and said so...

I had the same experience when I moved to the south.  Sales of houses are posted in the local paper.  As soon as one moves in to one's home, the church ladies (and gentlemen) start ringing the door bell.  There is real competition between churches for new members because with members comes an increase in donations and subscription fees.  We have lived here for 7 years now, and the number of people ringing our door bell has decreased from two a week to about one per month.

I swear I could not live in a place like that. It would drive me around the bend! It is useful to understand the differentiation in the US though. I may well end up back there on business at some time in the future and if that is the case you can be sure I'll be asking questions to make sure I don't put my foot in it!

Yeah, it got so bad at one time when I was in SC, that I came to the door with a shotgun in hand... Word got around and all the visits ceased.

Religion is actively pushing it's agenda on to society. If we sit back and just watch ,
we will slowly but surely  end up in a world that only knows religion.
It's all very well to think , we have Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris ,
they are doing the Atheist thing for us.
Not good enough .
If we look at all the struggles of people to change society , it has been at great personal cost and risk in many cases to the people pushing for change.
Like the first black woman to refuse to give up her seat on the bus,
Charles Darwin , what would the world be like now if he never wrote"The Origin Of Species"
I have been pushing the Atheist barrow for about ten years.
I wrote to my Prime Minister suggesting we begin the process of demoting religion.
And why.
I have blogged my arse off on as many forums as I could get on , and spoken on our national radio talk back.
For Atheism to have a chance , we have to do the work of ten christians.
because we are greatly outnumbered and out funded.

My entire family are devout Catholics.  My efforts to prevent the take over of our government by the religious is to point out to my family that the separation of church and state is the only thing that prevents the prosecution of Catholics.  I try to instill a bit of history and paranoia into the mix.  To fundamentalist friends I point out that the Catholic Church started out as a combination of government and religion and would like to go back to the good old days.  Therefore, fundamentalist Christians need to support separation of church and state in order for them to maintain their beliefs against the much larger group of Catholics in the world.

Keep the religious tribes wary of each other.  If they ever truly unite, it will be the end of modern civilization.

Quote from: "Godfree"I wrote to my Prime Minister suggesting we begin the process of demoting religion.

You have a Prime Minister, so I assume you are safe to talk reason.
Much of America seems too weird for words.
I have responded to posts where someone says they just keep quiet about religion.
I have suggested they just give the theist a little nudge and they tell a story of religious control and ostracism of unbelievers.
Families reject their children!
It's not easy.

Quote from: "Martin TK"I'm with you on the steak and beer, and a salad please.  But, I actually do want to convince the world that religion is evil and that we would be so much better off without it.  But I seriously doubt that will ever happen in my lifetime.

As for the OP, I think there are a LOT of closet atheists in the world, particularly in America.  A lot of people continue to go to Church as a social event, not because they truly believe.  There is also a lot of pressure on Americans to profess their faith, particularly in the South.  My wife put it best when she was shocked when she moved South from Pittsburgh and the first thing people would ask her is what church she goes to.  She was pissed.... and said so...

I differentiate between faith and religion.  Faith on the individual level is usually, but not always, harmless.  Organized religion has some dangers, and arouses my ire.

So long as a believer leaves me the hell alone, I'm fine.  If they wish to evangelize -- a religious activity -- then I will say something.

Quote from: "Godfree"For Atheism to have a chance , we have to do the work of ten christians.
because we are greatly outnumbered and out funded.

But, why should we evangelize being an atheist?  It's not a religion, some atheists are quite stupid and have beliefs which are equally as crazy as religious people.  

I'd much prefer to spread the good word of tolerance, equality, and rational thought rather than worry over if someone thinks a god exists or not.

I believe that many people believe in a god out of comfort and fear for the nothingness that we reach at our end. I personally believe that religion has been used as a tool of fear to control people and morals way way back in the day, which has only continued to the day, and grown. Intelligent religious people do exist, but sometimes it strikes me how a person can be so intelligent in some ways, but be so naive for a belief in  religion and "god" so they can continue their journey into an afterlife. In my eyes, God is an adult version of Santa Clause that people use as comfort out of fear. Like they say, "You only live once", I'm not wasting time

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Godfree"For Atheism to have a chance , we have to do the work of ten christians.
because we are greatly outnumbered and out funded.

But, why should we evangelize being an atheist?  It's not a religion, some atheists are quite stupid and have beliefs which are equally as crazy as religious people.  

I'd much prefer to spread the good word of tolerance, equality, and rational thought rather than worry over if someone thinks a god exists or not.

There are many problems with this idea of tolerance , for starters , it may just be another way to maintain the status quo , the way I like to rationalize that we shouldn't maintain the status quo is to see religion as a form of mental illness , and shouldn't we the "sane" ones try and help those afflicted with this illness.
Irrational behaviour is not restricted to the religious , however when it is written into the belief system , it's hard not to see it as unhealthy.

Derik ,  I like your post , and think I agree with most of it , as a golfer , I am a 0 handicap , shot 64 , when I play I can't help myself , I just want to help those who don't understand what they are doing , the game is so easy , down the middle , middle of the green and one put if you can , it helps to thump the ball on the par 5's so you have a chance of a two put birdie . I am the same with philosophy , those who can see , should help those who can't.

I think too many people are throwing around the word mental illness in relationship to religion when they are really just looking for some other words...disinformation and misinformation

It's not those who left religion were mentally ill then magically got better when they got the information they needed to realize religion isn't what it claims to be.

Quote from: "Whitney"I think too many people are throwing around the word mental illness in relationship to religion when they are really just looking for some other words...disinformation and misinformation

It's not those who left religion were mentally ill then magically got better when they got the information they needed to realize religion isn't what it claims to be.

Well lets look at it as religion requires them to think irrationally . And using the same irrational thinking processes , they end up believing in or thinking about lots of irrational things . So what they call the "real world" is a bunch of irrational thoughts about things that aren't real. In most cases these thoughts aren't that dangerous , but suicide bombers are a fairly good example of irrational thinking . People can end up trying things like faith healing , psychic surgery , which can have serious health problems result.
Just as alcohol or drug addiction can change a person , irrational behavior can lead them to unhealthy life styles.

I never said religion wasn't irrational...I said it wasn't a mental illness; there is no reason to think there is something physically/chemically wrong with a religious person's brain (at least not for the average religious person).

Quote from: "Whitney"I never said religion wasn't irrational...I said it wasn't a mental illness; there is no reason to think there is something physically/chemically wrong with a religious person's brain (at least not for the average religious person).

I didn't think "physically/chemically" were the only class of cause for mental illness.
I thought it was a problem with thought.
 

QuoteAny disease of the mind; the psychological state of someone who has emotional or behavioural problems serious enough to require psychiatric intervention

I don't know how many experts would classify religious belief as mental illness.
Perhaps it is a matter of degree, the thoughts and behaviours of believers seem weird to me.
Referring to the definition above, if many people share odd thoughts, intervention isn't required, it is the norm.
Atheists shouldn't be too smug about this.
How many people live their lives without some physical illness?
How many people posses a mental process that couldn't be challenged to some degree?

Quote from: "Godfree"There are many problems with this idea of tolerance , for starters , it may just be another way to maintain the status quo , the way I like to rationalize that we shouldn't maintain the status quo is to see religion as a form of mental illness , and shouldn't we the "sane" ones try and help those afflicted with this illness.

I don't have a problem with tolerance.  A strong idea has no need to supress dissentience, and indeed such an attitude of intolerance is indicative of a weak idea, in my mind.  Also, I deeply dislike the attempt to stigmatize religious people with the tag "mental illness," not only because, as Whitney pointed out, being irrational isn't being mentally ill, but because it perpetuates the idea that crazy people are inherently lesser humans.

QuoteIrrational behaviour is not restricted to the religious , however when it is written into the belief system , it's hard not to see it as unhealthy.

Atheists who are irrational can be just as dangerous, even though they don't have a higher authority (either human or divine) dictating their actions via a belief system.

QuoteI am the same with philosophy , those who can see , should help those who can't.

Quote from: "Neil Peart"Those who know what's best for us
must rise and save us from ourselves.

I don't like to think of religion as a mental illness, I believe it has more to do with ignorance (wilful or otherwise...) and a heaping spoonful of wishful thinking.

The way I figure it is that if god/s do exist then it shouldn't matter what you believe so long as you're a good person, and if they're going to punish good people for not believing in them when they've never done very much (If anything) to make their presence known... Then, obviously the gods take douche-baggery to epically new levels.

If they don't exist then it doesn't really matter what you believe. However being a good person becomes even more important because what you do here is the only thing that matters. The world would essentially be governing itself, and we couldn't count on a deity to make a heaven for us... So we'd have to make our own, here.

Lets try and redefine the problem as I see it .
We need to change the system we have , what we in the west call a secular democracy.
What I call a religious dictatorship disguised as a democracy.
Because to leave religion in such a position of power and control ,
means they will be there forever!!!
We will never stop the next generation being fed the same pack of irrational nonsense
if we leave religion in control.
So how are we going to persuade the masses to stop this religious nonsense ,
by teaching "tolerance" how is tolerating what is , going to change it???
we could talk about the good side of religion and how nice some religious people are ,
but thats certainly not going to discourage people from being religious.
So while you may think I'm just being mean or negative,
I think to justify seeking change , we/I must provide reason for the need for change.
Suggesting that we should all just be tolerant may make our lives easier and less stress , but it won't bring us any closer to change.

Pink Floyd, Nick Mason ore maybe just some roady who was there:

Quote"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even
if you're not mad..."

I think most of the people I know are mad, and I suspect the rest are up to something.

You can be tolerent yet change things... It really depends on how you phrase somethng.

Religion is evil, and all its practitioners should be killed! = Intolerent, and angry.

Religion is irrational, and unnecessarry. = Tolerent, yet honest.

The religious should have less rights! = Intolerent, and unfair.

The religious shouldn't have any more more rights than I do. = Tolerent, and true.

Also, you seem to be operating under the impression that religion is a bad thing...

I like to think of religion as being a lot like drinking: It dulls the mind, it's powerfully addictive, and children really have no place partaking in it.

However, if you take away people's right be who they are... Well that's just one step closer to a very grim future.

Art, philosophy, music, fun, creatvity, and pretty much any friviaity is irrational... Why should people be watching TV when they can be working!? That doesn't make it bad, just irrational.

The best way to go about changing the world for the better is to support science, and education. To promote tolerence amongst all people, being a good person, and even more importantly teaching the younger generation to be good people!

If the world was filled with educated, tolerent, good people... Well then a lot of the problems we have now will be a thing of the past.

Right now there's a lot of incompetent, selfish religous people in power... But how is that in anyway different from a lot of incompetent, selfish athiests being in charge?

People are people, they'll screw things up one way or another... Trust me, I've known people who were the most reasonable people you'd ever meet... And yet they believe in leprechauns.

I've also met the most closeminded, ignorent people who happened to be athiests... Most people fell between those two extremes however.

I'd vote for an athiest is he or she was the best person for the job, or at least seemed to be anyway.

I'd also vote for a person of any faith if they were the best person for the job.

And really, it doesn't matter all that much.

A good, well educated, reasonable person is just as well off as an athiest or otherwise.

America don't really have it that bad at the moment, compared with countries like Saudi Arabia. You can profess your disbelief in a deity in the US without a religious court sentencing you to death in an afternoon.

"Not one man in ten thousand has goodness of heart or strength of mind to be an atheist."
                                                                               
Samuel Taylor Coleridge

Quote from: "Godfree"What I call a religious dictatorship disguised as a democracy.
Because to leave religion in such a position of power and control ,
means they will be there forever!!!

While I agree that what we have is not a true democracy (nor do I think it was ever intended to be a true democracy, but I digress), I don't think what we have is even close to being rightly described as a religious dictatorship.

Roe V Wade would have never had (what I would call) a favorable outcome if we were under complete control of fundamentalist Christianity.

Prop 8 would have been found constitutionally valid if we were under a fundamentalist Chrsitian dictatorship.

Separation of church and state as we know it would be demeed to only mean that the US can't pick a national church and religious freedom as we know it would be invalidated...if we were under a christian dictatorship.

Don't you think you're being a bit dramatic?

Whitney ,, dramatic , provocative , challenging ,
I would be a fairly boring poster without trying to stimulate debate .
I applied to be a charitable trust here in NZ based on Atheist , the Crown Law Office told me "unlawful" there are zero Atheist charitable trusts in NZ.
But any fundamentalist christian with his own whacky  interpretation of the bible can have a charitable trust , so can a muslim , a buddha , or any other crazy religion , but me , he who was born and raised in this country , can't!!!
Because I'm an Atheist , seems like blatant discrimination to me , or am I being dramatic again???
We are supposed to be a fifty fifty mix here in NZ , Atheists have no charitable trusts , no political parties , and yet we have had plenty of religion based political parties.
Basically there is no support for Atheism , it is discouraged at almost every level , even in NZ,and yet we are supposed to have half the country who don't believe in god.
Seems to me we are being deceived , this is not a secular democracy...

Set up a Secular Humanist Trust.  http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.ph ... =manifesto (http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&page=manifesto)
See how that goes.  If you can't beat the government, chip away at it.  Chip, chip, chip, this is how the fundies are getting control of America and it appears they are doing fairly well in NZ/

Notself , I can see that other organizations have more success . But I'm an Atheist , and would prefer to beself,,

Further to this tolerance,
Are those suggesting tolerance saying you are happy to leave religion in control??
That you don't want or need change??
Does religion in your view tolerate Atheism???
Is religion tolerant,?
Are you trying to be jesus and turning the other cheek???
Are you a religious spy , and here to discourage Atheism???

I'm not sure how being intolerant and proselytizing stands to gain atheism any followers, godfree.  There is something to be said about taking the high road.  Just because some religious folk are intolerant assholes, doesn't mean we have to respond in kind.  That has nothing to do with the Christian ideal of turning the other cheek, and everything to do with being a decent and respectful human being.  Religion doesn't have a monopoly on morality and goodness.  If you don't like the religious Golden Rule, look at it from a philosophical viewpoint instead.  Kant, Sartre, and many others have essentially said that we should not do those things that we do not want others doing to us.  If you don't want the religious pushing their views on you, than you have no business pushing atheism on them.  You may not like or agree with what they have to say, but they are still entitled to their opinions, however irrational they may be.  If anything, I think it sheds a much more positive light on those atheists who are tolerant of the religious than those who would push atheism on those who aren't interested.

Quote from: "philosoraptor"If you don't want the religious pushing their views on you, than you have no business pushing atheism on them.  You may not like or agree with what they have to say, but they are still entitled to their opinions, however irrational they may be.  If anything, I think it sheds a much more positive light on those atheists who are tolerant of the religious than those who would push atheism on those who aren't interested.

I don't mind theists sharing their opinions so much as the actions they feel obliged to take because of them.
Do they have to be listed again? birth control, weird middle eastern politics, suppression of science and on and on and on.

Quote from: "Godfree"Notself , I can see that other organizations have more success . But I'm an Atheist , and would prefer to beself

Have you're islands stopped shaking yet?

Quote from: "Godfree"Notself , I can see that other organizations have more success . But I'm an Atheist , and would prefer to beself,,Secular Humanism is agnostic/atheist without shouting about it.  I don't think most government bureaucrats would know it was atheist.  Establish the trust now and re brand it later.

Further to this tolerance,
Are those suggesting tolerance saying you are happy to leave religion in control??  It scares the hell out of me that the fundamentalists are very close to total control of the government.
That you don't want or need change?? I thought Obama was the change but he is doing nothing to keep the government secular.
Does religion in your view tolerate Atheism???Religion says it tolerates non believers but the religious are extremely suspicious and disapproving of atheists.
Is religion tolerant,?They act tolerant and some may be but fundamentalists feel threatened by atheists and some would imprison atheist for their lack of belief.
Are you trying to be jesus and turning the other cheek???I am not turning the other cheek.  I am ducking my head so I don't get socially assasinated.
Are you a religious spy , and here to discourage Atheism???

I am a non-religious spy wandering around my family and friends trying to put a beam of doubt into their belifs.

Asking someone if they are a religious spy, ...seriously?

Quote from: "Whitney"Asking someone if they are a religious spy, :pop:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmediaelites.com%2Ffiles%2F2010%2F04%2Fangry-mob2.jpg&hash=436df21c418de2242da3dcbb5dd45d12a9f640e9)

The South Island earthquake , centered near Christchurch , has stopped apart from small after shocks , the first big one was the only one that did much damage.
Whitney ,
While you may laugh , I wouldn't be at all surprised to find someone here pretending to be an Atheist just to keep an eye on us .
Here in NZ we have a green party , usually left of center , religion is right of center,
our Green party is a bunch of christians , how did that happen , do we have a left anymore?
I joined a Skeptics group , only to find they were a bunch of agnostics , who were more suspicious of my reasoning for being Atheist than they were about religion.
And for philosopher , I was not suggesting we push Atheism on religion ,
I'm suggesting we form our own party and replace religion .
We would need to create an alternative , ie political party , social groups , philosophy.
We need to reinvent society and demote religion , tax it and take away any special
laws that were made for religion , call it a business , and make it comply. or stop taking money for what they do.

I had a skeptics meeting two nights ago . There was a Bahi there and he insisted that christians and muslims are all looking at the same god .?? ,I challenged his assumption but seemed to get nowhere . Then we see in the news the next day , the burning of the koran , a American priest is going to burn 200 korans , and the billboards outside his church say ,Islam is the devil , that certainly doesn't sound like they are looking at the same god , but it does sound like the religious intolerance of each other that I have seen from most religious groups.
The burning of books is  older than the bible , they did it to the library of Alexandria , and history has many examples of the ignorant trying to destroy knowledge that challenges or disagrees with what they believe, I think ideas can't be burnt , they need to be replaced with better ideas . The challenge is to present these ideas in such a way as to appeal to those looking for the impossible , god , heaven , eternal life .
Whatever you offer them will seem like second place , when they are so used to believing in
things that simply are too good to be true.

Quote from: "Godfree"The science has been there to prove evolution , the age of the earth etc for years now .
And yet places like America are still entrenched in the dark ages of superstition and religion.
The world is still in most parts lost in illusion , floundering in the dark.
How can this be ,?? is religion so big and powerful we can't stop it,??
Are we the Atheists just not stepping up to the plate and letting rip,??
What do we have to do to get through to these people.?
Do we need to form our own political party and lobby to have the laws changed,?
Web sites like this one are certainly a step in the right direction.
I have been doing this Atheist blog thing for about 6 years and have found little support or agreement on any of the sites. I tried expressing my Atheism on the dating sites , and it didn't get me many dates. Atheists are still seen by most societies as extremists,
and are not really welcomed by main stream society.
What can we do to change this.???

Why? Beacause in places like America the social system is set up to perpetuate ignorance and division. This is so the 'PEOPLE' will be easier to control. If you are the leader of a country and everyone is on thier toes - it makes it more difficult for you to do what you please. Religion plays an important role is keeping people blindly distracted.
What can one do the change this? Be firm in your convictions. God or god(s) are non-existent and the story tells iself, I think it is a matter of time before people begin to see. All it takes is that first question most believers won't ask: What IF im wrong?

Quote from: "Godfree"Whitney ,, dramatic , provocative , challenging ,
I would be a fairly boring poster without trying to stimulate debate .
I applied to be a charitable trust here in NZ based on Atheist , the Crown Law Office told me "unlawful" there are zero Atheist charitable trusts in NZ.
But any fundamentalist christian with his own whacky  interpretation of the bible can have a charitable trust , so can a muslim , a buddha , or any other crazy religion , but me , he who was born and raised in this country , can't!!!
Because I'm an Atheist , seems like blatant discrimination to me , or am I being dramatic again???
We are supposed to be a fifty fifty mix here in NZ , Atheists have no charitable trusts , no political parties , and yet we have had plenty of religion based political parties.
Basically there is no support for Atheism , it is discouraged at almost every level , even in NZ,and yet we are supposed to have half the country who don't believe in god.
Seems to me we are being deceived , this is not a secular democracy...

Being denied a trust is a far cry from living in a dictatorship.  Not that it's fair that you should be so denied, but Whitney's right: you're being melodramatic.  If you want a dictatorship, move to Central Asia or Rwanda.

Quote from: "Ã¥scertain"Why? Beacause in places like America the social system is set up to perpetuate ignorance and division.

People are already too stupid to require social engineering.

Quote from: "Godfree"I had a skeptics meeting two nights ago . There was a Bahi there and he insisted that christians and muslims are all looking at the same god .?? ,I challenged his assumption but seemed to get nowhere .

It's called Pluralism...pluralists believe that all religions are paths people follow in an attempt to know god.  Most Christians and Muslims aren't Pluralists...they are Exclusivist; that's why fundies act as they do.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "Godfree"Whitney ,, dramatic , provocative , challenging ,
I would be a fairly boring poster without trying to stimulate debate .
I applied to be a charitable trust here in NZ based on Atheist , the Crown Law Office told me "unlawful" there are zero Atheist charitable trusts in NZ.
But any fundamentalist christian with his own whacky  interpretation of the bible can have a charitable trust , so can a muslim , a buddha , or any other crazy religion , but me , he who was born and raised in this country , can't!!!
Because I'm an Atheist , seems like blatant discrimination to me , or am I being dramatic again???
We are supposed to be a fifty fifty mix here in NZ , Atheists have no charitable trusts , no political parties , and yet we have had plenty of religion based political parties.
Basically there is no support for Atheism , it is discouraged at almost every level , even in NZ,and yet we are supposed to have half the country who don't believe in god.
Seems to me we are being deceived , this is not a secular democracy...

Being denied a trust is a far cry from living in a dictatorship.  Not that it's fair that you should be so denied, but Whitney's right: you're being melodramatic.  If you want a dictatorship, move to Central Asia or Rwanda.

In order to qualify as a charitable trust for taxation purposes the objectives of the trust must fall within the following:

    * The relief of poverty
    * The advancement of education
    * The advancement of religion
    * Any other purpose beneficial to the community

That is from NZ gov website. If they told you differently, you should read the rules and not let others interpret them for you .

Yes the "advancement of education" and "of benefit to the community"
My Atheist aims were said to not qualify for either of these.
I tried to explain to the woman on the phone , that science is what an Atheist uses to explain the world . So how could this not be seen as educational???
And quite clearly this government does not see Atheism as being of benefit to the community .
I certainly don't see equality there . Very one sided view of whats good for the community.
Filling our childrens heads with religious nonsense is good for the community , but science and Atheism aren't???