Trayvon Martin: Probe into killing of Florida teenager (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17441277)
QuoteThe US Department of Justice has announced an investigation into the shooting of an unarmed black teenager in Florida in February.
Trayvon Martin, 17, was killed by neighbourhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, 28, while walking through a gated community in a suburb of Orlando.
Mr Zimmerman says he was acting in self-defence.
Benjamin Crump, a lawyer for the Martin family, used a news conference on Tuesday to call for his arrest.
A Florida grand jury will also hear evidence in the case on 10 April, a state prosecutor has said.
A grand jury convenes to determine if there is enough evidence to bring a case to trial.
Florida Governor Rick Scott has also asked the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to assist in the investigation.
In an impassioned speech, Mr Crump said police had a clear duty: "Arrest George Zimmerman."
"He is allowed to come and go as he please, while Trayvon Martin is in a grave," Mr Crump said.
According to Mr Crump, a 16-year-old young woman was on the phone with Martin before he was shot. She said Martin was followed by Mr Zimmerman and she heard the beginning of the confrontation, Mr Crump said...
Racism at its very worst. :'(
Listen to the recording part way down the article. Zimmerman may have shot Trayvon but the system that put the gun in Zimmerman's hand is equally responsible.
What I find most shocking about this case is that Zimmerman wasn't arrested. He shot somebody and killed them, if anything he should have been taken into custody and then presented in court that he was acting in self-defense and let the jury decide if that was the case. There is no self-defense involved in this situation the man shot an unarmed kid.
Quote from: Crow on March 21, 2012, 12:55:20 PM
What I find most shocking about this case is that Zimmerman wasn't arrested. He shot somebody and killed them, if anything he should have been taken into custody and then presented in court that he was acting in self-defense and let the jury decide if that was the case. There is no self-defense involved in this situation the man shot an unarmed kid.
Exactly the point that is being made in America. Self defence isn't a 'get out of jail free' card, it's for a court to decide if Zimmerman acted in self defence.
Quote from: Tank on March 21, 2012, 02:45:43 PM
Quote from: Crow on March 21, 2012, 12:55:20 PM
What I find most shocking about this case is that Zimmerman wasn't arrested. He shot somebody and killed them, if anything he should have been taken into custody and then presented in court that he was acting in self-defense and let the jury decide if that was the case. There is no self-defense involved in this situation the man shot an unarmed kid.
Exactly the point that is being made in America. Self defence isn't a 'get out of jail free' card, it's for a court to decide if Zimmerman acted in self defence.
Yeah, wow. There's such a thing as proper "use of force". This is insane.
This case is truly appalling.
As I understand it, the reason Zimmerman wasn't arrested is that Florida has a "stand your ground" law. Under it, you can shoot or otherwise harm anyone you perceive to be threatening you, whether you're in your home or in public. You don't have an obligation to try to leave the scene/avoid the situation, as is required by many other states' laws. Under a SYG law, if you claim self-defense and there are no witnesses to say otherwise, it would seem that the authorities are going to have a tough go nailing you.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/21/do-stand-your-ground-laws-encourage-vigilantes/what-the-florida-stand-your-ground-law-says (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/21/do-stand-your-ground-laws-encourage-vigilantes/what-the-florida-stand-your-ground-law-says)
http://www.npr.org/2012/03/20/149014228/a-history-of-stand-your-ground-law-in-florida (http://www.npr.org/2012/03/20/149014228/a-history-of-stand-your-ground-law-in-florida)
Quote from: Anne D. on March 22, 2012, 03:00:20 AM
This case is truly appalling.
As I understand it, the reason Zimmerman wasn't arrested is that Florida has a "stand your ground" law. Under it, you can shoot or otherwise harm anyone you perceive to be threatening you, whether you're in your home or in public. You don't have an obligation to try to leave the scene/avoid the situation, as is required by many other states' laws. Under a SYG law, if you claim self-defense and there are no witnesses to say otherwise, it would seem that the authorities are going to have a tough go nailing you.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/21/do-stand-your-ground-laws-encourage-vigilantes/what-the-florida-stand-your-ground-law-says (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/21/do-stand-your-ground-laws-encourage-vigilantes/what-the-florida-stand-your-ground-law-says)
http://www.npr.org/2012/03/20/149014228/a-history-of-stand-your-ground-law-in-florida (http://www.npr.org/2012/03/20/149014228/a-history-of-stand-your-ground-law-in-florida)
What the crap???
Wow. I've only visited florida once to go to a backstreet boys show when I was 14. (dont judge)
But I have no desire to go back as an adult. That kind of law is scary as shit...
And just when you thought this murder case could not get any clearer audio of the 911 call reveals this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNI5CA5jijw
Seems pretty damning to me.
The Stand Your Ground law is insane! I thought that our Make My Day law was harsh enough (you can shoot someone for tresspassing or threatening you on your property) but atleast we aren't allowed to just shoot anyone walking through our neighborhood.
This case is soooo sad. My heart just breaks for that boy's parents. :'(
This story just breaks my heart, and that 911 tape is especially horrifying. Anyone who believes that racism isn't alive in America is ignorant to these kinds of incidents.
I firmly deserve that Zimmerman deserves to be punished for his actions, but Florida is a capital punishment state and I'm not anymore okay with state mandated murder than I am with people shooting each other on the street. Shit.
Quote from: philosoraptor on March 23, 2012, 01:33:47 AM
This story just breaks my heart, and that 911 tape is especially horrifying. Anyone who believes that racism isn't alive in America is ignorant to these kinds of incidents.
I firmly deserve that Zimmerman deserves to be punished for his actions, but Florida is a capital punishment state and I'm not anymore okay with state mandated murder than I am with people shooting each other on the street. Shit.
He chased down and murdered an innocent teen.
I think he deserves to die.
Quote from: Crow on March 23, 2012, 12:03:14 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 23, 2012, 04:24:16 AM
I think he deserves to die.
Really!?
If my son was gunned down by a rascist, paranoid bastard. And he is crying out for help to 911-- yeah, I do.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 23, 2012, 02:35:54 PM
If my son was gunned down by a rascist, paranoid bastard. And he is crying out for help to 911-- yeah, I do.
...As long as like 30 years don't go by between the death sentence and the actual death.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 23, 2012, 02:35:54 PM
If my son was gunned down by a rascist, paranoid bastard. And he is crying out for help to 911-- yeah, I do.
Personally if that was the case I would prefer to beat the crap out of them whenever I wanted to.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 23, 2012, 04:24:16 AM
Quote from: philosoraptor on March 23, 2012, 01:33:47 AM
This story just breaks my heart, and that 911 tape is especially horrifying. Anyone who believes that racism isn't alive in America is ignorant to these kinds of incidents.
I firmly deserve that Zimmerman deserves to be punished for his actions, but Florida is a capital punishment state and I'm not anymore okay with state mandated murder than I am with people shooting each other on the street. Shit.
He chased down and murdered an innocent teen.
I think he deserves to die.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, to borrow from Gandhi.
From what the news has said about him, it seems like Zimmerman was an extremely paranoid individual. It wouldn't surprise me if he had some kind of mental illness. Imprisonment, yes. Death penalty, no.
http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003--abc-news-topstories.html (http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003--abc-news-topstories.html)
Bumping this thread to post the above link. Recently released video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station after the shooting shows him clean, without any scrapes or bruises. Interesting, given his claims that Martin attacked him first, and the basis for him claiming the SYG law. The more that comes out, the less justified his actions are seeming (not that they were justified anyway).
I think it's disgusting how certain people are trying to smear this kid by pointing out that he had been suspended from school for having marijuana in his backpack, like that is in any way relevant to him getting chased and gunned down by that freaking maniac.
Philosoraptor - I agree with you. I'm against the death penalty. Life in prison is certainly no cake walk.
The court of public opinion's all over this one. I think the public should step back and let the system do its job. None of us really know what happened one way or the other, but that hasn't stopped a few million people from deciding he's guilty all on their own.
A lot more information has emerged about this since it first made the headlines. Zimmerman is certainly not without blame but fairly good evidence suggests that Martin attacked him, not the other way around. Zim will probably do some hard time for his stupidity and subsequent shooting.
About 50 miles down the road from the Zim/Martin scene (Lake Wales Fl) another episode took place with an entirely different flavor.
Episode one: A nice family of four was awakened, in the night, by the sound of breaking glass. A burglar was invading the home. The father grabbed his 38 and tried to stop the burglar. The burglar attacked the father with a weapon and got himself shot. He was seriously wounded but did not die.
Episode two; Some poor slobs girlfriend broke up with him. He was angry. He had a few drinks then he had some more drinks. He became wildly drunk. He had a friend deliver him to his girlfriends house where he would have it out with her. He selected a house which was on the wrong street. He tried to kick the door down. The occupant of the house went to the door to tell the guy to go away. Drunk pushed his way into the house, home owner who had previously scooped up his 38 backed away. The drunk ripped off his shirt and yelled; "you wanna fight?" Homeowner fired one warning shot into the floor in front of the drunk. The drunk tried to attack. Homeowner shot him one time. Dead.
You guessed it. It was the same house, same father, same peaceful family, in both episodes. The court exhonerated the home owner in both instances. This is an example of the real intent of the stand your ground law. Zimmermans case is far from the same set of circumstances and no where near as justifiable.
You can imagine the trauma for the homeowner and their children. They will live in fear and probably in some guilt for the rest of their lives. This was a decent, middle class, law abiding, family, not some trigger happy bunch of cowboys.
Wait, the same family had random people breaking in to their house on two different occasions?
Anyway, my thought about the whole Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman incident is this: If a grown man were chasing me through my neighborhood, at some point I might get to the point where I felt like my only option was to attack him too (like, I don't want to lead a psychopath back to my house because my family is there and I also don't want him to know where I live, or I can't run anymore, or I feel like he's about to catch me and hurt me) I don't think he should be allowed to then say "She attacked me!" and then shoot me dead and get off. Don't effing chase people and put them in fear of their lives and you won't get attacked!
Quote from: Icarus on July 20, 2012, 07:23:57 PM
. . . fairly good evidence suggests . . .
Don't be shy about citing reputable sources.
Quote from: Icarus on July 20, 2012, 07:23:57 PM
Episode two; Some poor slobs girlfriend broke up with him. He was angry. He had a few drinks then he had some more drinks. He became wildly drunk. He had a friend deliver him to his girlfriends house where he would have it out with her. He selected a house which was on the wrong street. He tried to kick the door down. The occupant of the house went to the door to tell the guy to go away. Drunk pushed his way into the house, home owner who had previously scooped up his 38 backed away. The drunk ripped off his shirt and yelled; "you wanna fight?" Homeowner fired one warning shot into the floor in front of the drunk. The drunk tried to attack. Homeowner shot him one time. Dead.
This is a good case against guns, I think.
A really drunk person should be easy to overcome, or easy to run away from. No-one had to die.
Quote from: Stevil on July 20, 2012, 08:26:12 PM
Quote from: Icarus on July 20, 2012, 07:23:57 PM
Episode two; Some poor slobs girlfriend broke up with him. He was angry. He had a few drinks then he had some more drinks. He became wildly drunk. He had a friend deliver him to his girlfriends house where he would have it out with her. He selected a house which was on the wrong street. He tried to kick the door down. The occupant of the house went to the door to tell the guy to go away. Drunk pushed his way into the house, home owner who had previously scooped up his 38 backed away. The drunk ripped off his shirt and yelled; "you wanna fight?" Homeowner fired one warning shot into the floor in front of the drunk. The drunk tried to attack. Homeowner shot him one time. Dead.
This is a good case against guns, I think.
A really drunk person should be easy to overcome, or easy to run away from. No-one had to die.
Yep. Or how about this one? (http://abcnews.go.com/US/drunk-woman-wanders-colorado-couples-home-shot/story?id=16435998) She didn't die thankfully, but look at her. She looks terrifying, doesn't she? There is no way that the home owners could have possibly dealt with a small blond drunk girl than shooting her.
Quote
will not face any charges for shooting Ripple because of Colorado's "Make My Day" law, which allows residents to use deadly force against home intruders.
"Make My Day", I can see the mentality behind the law makers there.
If a Police Officer shoots a person with a stun gun in NZ there is a big inquiry, I couldn't imagine what would happen if a police shot a person with bullets for being drunk and disorderly.
Ordinary citizens are not equipped, skill wise, emotionally, legal knowledge, or experience with regards to gun fights.
Wouldn't it be better to take some basic self defense course rather than simply buy a gun?
Quote from: philosoraptor on March 24, 2012, 02:34:30 AM
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, to borrow from Gandhi.
I think he was wrong. If nothing else, logically, the very last person standing would have an eye left.
Quote from: Asmodean on July 21, 2012, 12:31:53 AM
Quote from: philosoraptor on March 24, 2012, 02:34:30 AM
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, to borrow from Gandhi.
I think he was wrong. If nothing else, logically, the very last person standing would have an eye left.
Unless he was already missing an eye.
Quote from: En_Route on July 21, 2012, 12:35:23 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on July 21, 2012, 12:31:53 AM
Quote from: philosoraptor on March 24, 2012, 02:34:30 AM
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, to borrow from Gandhi.
I think he was wrong. If nothing else, logically, the very last person standing would have an eye left.
Unless he was already missing an eye.
No.
This subject is one that is very close to home for me personally. I lived in Sanford from age 6 to the age of 32 when I moved my family a little closer to Orlando. Kept the house there, and I still rent it out. My wife and I have known Billy Lee (the former Sanfod Chief of Police) and his wife Tina since high school. When I say "know" I mean that Billy and I were both members in a very small Rotaract Club (less than 20 active members) for about 10 years after high school. Of course my opinion is biased, but I will always feel that he is a good man who got a very raw deal when the powers-that-be needed a scapegoat to feed to the mob.
I understand the emotion surrounding this tragedy, but unfortunately emotions that run this high usually begin to create their own "facts" and versions of events because a tragedy of this size demands maximum carnage. We can't believe that an unarmed child was gunned down due to poor judgement and suddenly out of control escalation. Someone has to be guilty of something premeditated and heinous otherwise it's a tragedy that could arbitrarily happen to us or someone we love.
The media carries their own burden of guilt as well, having fanned the flames with sensationalism for the sake of ratings.
I am not a George Zimmerman fan, but neither do I hate him (at least not until the legalities are over). I am not ready to take him out to the nearest tree and string him up, and I wonder if it is possible for him to get a fair trial in Florida or anywhere for that matter. The "events" of that evening, real and imagined have grown so disconnected and wildly speculative that it impossible to piece together what happened that night unless you are a member of the team investigating the incident.
I'm not ready to convict or exonerate anyone based soley on what I've read or heard from the press or punditry. Too often they have their own agenda.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.sharenator.com%2Fseal_of_approval_Rally_Signs_s500x332_102609_580_Whats_your_fave_bandssingers_whatever-s500x332-102733-475.jpg&hash=ffdf407820f4877257ac28a6d19f3cdd9a7f79f8)
Quote from: Non Quixote on July 21, 2012, 02:17:11 AM
{snip}
I'm not ready to convict or exonerate anyone based soley on what I've read or heard from the press or punditry. Too often they have their own agenda.
Hear, hear.
Trial by media is unacceptable. In an ideal world the press should not be able to report or speculate on any crime until after the trial has reached a verdict; because until that point they can not be in full possession of the available facts. The exception being that the police may ask the press for assistance in tracking down a suspect.
Refer to my post #20
The maniacal drunk guy was physically superior to the home owner who used a pistol to equalize his disadvantage. The drunk was a known bad ass by police but not known by the homeowner. The drunk had had previous run ins with the law.
And yes, the same home, the same family, were twice threatened by intruders who had used forced entry. In the aftermath of the first incident, is it not understandable that the innocent family would have been afraid for their lives and willing to take sterm measures to save themselves? Incidentally the home was in a decent neighborhood not at all accustomed to or tolerant of forced intrusions.