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General => Ethics => Topic started by: LegendarySandwich on January 02, 2011, 11:10:21 PM

Title: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 02, 2011, 11:10:21 PM
Recently, I've been thinking about the morality of Internet piracy, which is actually just sharing things that the government and companies don't want you to.

Is it the same thing as, say, going into Blockbuster and stealing Jackass from them? I say it isn't. First off, it isn't physical property -- at its core, it's just information. Second, infinite copies can be produced. Third, the Internet is supposed to be open and free. Placing unnecessary restrictions on what people can do is immoral, in my opinion. Fourth, it's really, really hard to enforce anti-sharing laws, so why spend so much money trying to stop it?

I think all laws trying to stop Internet piracy are just plain stupid. Some people might say that without laws like these, everything would be stolen/shared for free, the creators of the content wouldn't get paid, and thus they would stop producing the content. I think this is evidently false. Even in the vast realm of piracy and illegal activity we call the Internet, people are still making money. Take Netflix, for instance. Anyone can go onto ThePirateBay, type in a few words, and get a movie for free, with almost zero threat of consequences. Then why is Netflix so successful? Because they have a business model that works. Netflix is cheap, convenient, and is great quality for the price you pay. This shows that if companies stop clinging to their old, outdated business models and embrace the future, money can be made amidst a world of free sharing.

Your thoughts? Am I wrong? If so, why?
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Whitney on January 02, 2011, 11:37:50 PM
I think that if someone wants to share their own copyrighted material on the internet via a specific medium they should expect that it would not be okay for someone to distribute that material in a manner they haven't agreed to.

It's not just music...it's books, photography, graphic designs, company names etc; I don't see how being on the internet should make copyright and trademark laws any less valid.

I think people pay for netflix, itunes, etc because they don't want to chance being caught downloading pirated data and they can trust the source won't give their computer a virus.  If it weren't for the legal concerns there would probably be a free ad supported site that provided the movies/music for free that we could trust to use (like Napster before it was forced to charge).
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: terranus on January 02, 2011, 11:49:05 PM
The reason internet sharing is mostly considered "wrong" and illegal is because sharing violates core principles of greedy capitalism. In a true Communist state, internet sharing would never be challenged as an illegal or immoral practice. It wouldn't even be a controversial issue at all. Why do you think internet "piracy" is so much higher in countries like China?
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 02, 2011, 11:53:58 PM
Quote from: "Whitney"I think that if someone wants to share their own copyrighted material on the internet via a specific medium they should expect that it would not be okay for someone to distribute that material in a manner they haven't agreed to.

It's not just music...it's books, photography, graphic designs, company names etc; I don't see how being on the internet should make copyright and trademark laws any less valid.

I think people pay for netflix, itunes, etc because they don't want to chance being caught downloading pirated data and they can trust the source won't give their computer a virus.  If it weren't for the legal concerns there would probably be a free ad supported site that provided the movies/music for free that we could trust to use (like Napster before it was forced to charge).
I refer you to the four points I made in the original post.

The Internet is like the ultimate free market -- at least, it would be without these stupid restrictions the Government places on it (that DON'T WORK). The Internet is new and radically different than anything we have ever had before. You can't just place the same laws we have on everything else and think it will work. The Internet needs new business models and laws.

Ultimately, any restrictions or regulations on the Internet slow things down, even if the intentions were good.

I don't think many people choose not to pirate because they're scared of getting caught. The other reasons that people use for refusing to pirate are real reasons, though, I think, and proof that people will still pay for things even if it was legal to pirate.

Also, concerning copyrights, I don't believe they should exist at all, in any way. They stifle innovation and place unnecessary restrictions on our actions, in my opinion.
Quote from: "terranus"The reason internet sharing is mostly considered "wrong" and illegal is because sharing violates core principles of greedy capitalism. In a true Communist state, internet sharing would never be challenged as an illegal or immoral practice. It wouldn't even be a controversial issue at all. Why do you think internet "piracy" is so much higher in countries like China?
In a true libertarian state, it wouldn't be considered controversial either. So we're even.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 03, 2011, 12:05:40 AM
Also, this (http://www.libertarianism.com/content/93/issues).
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Whitney on January 03, 2011, 12:14:08 AM
Without copyrights how would you keep someone from opening up a business in the neighboring town using your name, your logo, your business model, your menu etc?  How would anyone who works with material that is typically copyrighted be able to keep a roof over their heads?  It would kill the arts.

Throwing out copyrights would only be okay if we lived in a utopian communist society where everyone gets an equal cut...unfortunately communism doesn't work in practice.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 03, 2011, 12:18:28 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"Without copyrights how would you keep someone from opening up a business in the neighboring town using your name, your logo, your business model, your menu etc?
It wouldn't. That's the point. Making it illegal for people to do things like that stifles innovation.
QuoteHow would anyone who works with material that is typically copyrighted be able to keep a roof over their heads?  It would kill the arts.
No, it wouldn't. Businesses largely work by taking others' ideas and, hopefully, improving on them. If we eliminated copyright laws, businesses could do this faster and better, producing more innovation and better products.

Of course, I'm not really educated in how business works, or marketing, or anything. This is just what I've observed over the years, and my thoughts.

QuoteThrowing out copyrights would only be okay if we lived in a utopian communist society where everyone gets an equal cut...unfortunately communism doesn't work in practice.
I'm advocating the opposite of communism.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Ultima22689 on January 03, 2011, 12:19:51 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"Without copyrights how would you keep someone from opening up a business in the neighboring town using your name, your logo, your business model, your menu etc?  How would anyone who works with material that is typically copyrighted be able to keep a roof over their heads?  It would kill the arts.

Throwing out copyrights would only be okay if we lived in a utopian communist society where everyone gets an equal cut...unfortunately communism doesn't work in practice.

The internet and the real world are not the same. Copyright was made before the internet existed and this did not plan for the internet. Copyright just stifles the internet, it works in the real world but not online.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Whitney on January 03, 2011, 12:25:23 AM
Quote from: "Ultima22689"Copyright just stifles the internet, it works in the real world but not online.

I'm really just not seeing how there is a difference...the internet is simply another tool for distribution and communication.

What's the difference between a movie being transported to your home via DVD than it being transported to your home via internet.  Why should it be illegal to distribute content off a DVD without permission of the copyright owner but not illegal to distribute the same data over the internet without permission?

What about copyrighted material existing prevents the free exchange of ideas any more than it does in the "real world" and what about the internet entitles it to supersede established law?
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 03, 2011, 12:30:59 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"
Quote from: "Ultima22689"Copyright just stifles the internet, it works in the real world but not online.

I'm really just not seeing how there is a difference...the internet is simply another tool for distribution and communication.
Wrong. It is something like we have never had before. It allows everyone to communicate with everyone else, no matter where they are, and share information. Restricting this flow of information is bad.

QuoteWhat's the difference between a movie being transported to your home via DVD than it being transported to your home via internet.  Why should it be illegal to distribute content off a DVD without permission of the copyright owner but not illegal to distribute the same data over the internet without permission?
Refer to my four points in the original post.

QuoteWhat about copyrighted material existing prevents the free exchange of ideas any more than it does in the "real world" and what about the internet entitles it to supersede established law?
While there may not be many real-world examples of copyrights restricting the free exchange of ideas on the Internet, I don't like the Government controlling what we can say, do, or share. It's a slippery slope. It also violates my ideal of free sharing.

Like I said previously, you can't just apply old laws and business models to something completely new and unprecedented like the Internet and expect it to work. It doesn't.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Ultima22689 on January 03, 2011, 12:37:52 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"
Quote from: "Ultima22689"Copyright just stifles the internet, it works in the real world but not online.

I'm really just not seeing how there is a difference...the internet is simply another tool for distribution and communication.

What's the difference between a movie being transported to your home via DVD than it being transported to your home via internet.  Why should it be illegal to distribute content off a DVD without permission of the copyright owner but not illegal to distribute the same data over the internet without permission?

What about copyrighted material existing prevents the free exchange of ideas any more than it does in the "real world" and what about the internet entitles it to supersede established law?

I'm not making a profit off it, that's what.  When they go after people for piracy, it's not the guy in his room streaming some movie, it's the guy burning copies of DVDs and selling them like hotcakes, copyrights aren't some moral thing, it's to keep people from losing out on money made from their product, sharing things on the internet isn't about money because no one profits, to hamper the internet with copyrights is to stifle a flow of information like never before, the whole of human history is a google away. You want to ruin that by copyrighting everything?
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Whitney on January 03, 2011, 12:58:49 AM
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Wrong. It is something like we have never had before. It allows everyone to communicate with everyone else, no matter where they are, and share information.
We could do that with the telephone...only difference is the internet can carry more than just voice data.

QuoteRefer to my four points in the original post.
um..I have...I didn't think they made a very good case.

QuoteWhile there may not be many real-world examples of copyrights restricting the free exchange of ideas on the Internet, I don't like the Government controlling what we can say, do, or share. It's a slippery slope. It also violates my ideal of free sharing.
And taking away the ability to copyright violates my ideal of an artists being fairly confident that someone else won't take their work and present it as their own.  Plus if there aren't any real world examples of copyrights causing a kink in the free sharing of ideas what's the problem?

QuoteLike I said previously, you can't just apply old laws and business models to something completely new and unprecedented like the Internet and expect it to work. It doesn't.
Other than people ignoring the law and it not fitting your ideal for how the internet should be run...how is it not working?
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Whitney on January 03, 2011, 01:03:22 AM
I still lack seeing the difference between watching a cd burned without permission and streaming them without permission...in both cases the owner loses money they would have otherwise gotten had the person watching the moved rented or bought it instead.  Not all movie producers are rich either, even the small movies cost money to make and they just hope they can get it back in sales.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"You want to ruin that by copyrighting everything?

I never said we should copyright everything...
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: terranus on January 03, 2011, 01:05:18 AM
OFFTOPIC:
QuoteThrowing out copyrights would only be okay if we lived in a utopian communist society where everyone gets an equal cut...unfortunately communism doesn't work in practice.

It would work if humans were perfect, incorruptible beings. Unfortunately, we are not perfect - one of the few things the theists got right - and communism is one of those systems that needs to be adminstrated perfectly if it is to run properly.


ONTOPIC:
Quote from: "Ultima22689"I'm not making a profit off it, that's what.  When they go after people for piracy, it's not the guy in his room streaming some movie, it's the guy burning copies of DVDs and selling them like hotcakes, copyrights aren't some moral thing, it's to keep people from losing out on money made from their product, sharing things on the internet isn't about money because no one profits, to hamper the internet with copyrights is to stifle a flow of information like never before, the whole of human history is a google away. You want to ruin that by copyrighting everything?

That is a very good point. The internet isn't some unconquered, foreign land we're talking about here. Its really almost a whole other reality. It's absurd to think that the same rules which exist in the physical world can be transferred over to the virtual world without any significant problems.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 03, 2011, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Wrong. It is something like we have never had before. It allows everyone to communicate with everyone else, no matter where they are, and share information.
We could do that with the telephone...only difference is the internet can carry more than just voice data.
And you can do it on a scope magnitudes larger than anyone could dream to do with just a simple telephone.

Quote
QuoteRefer to my four points in the original post.
um..I have...I didn't think they made a very good case.
Well, I don't think you've made a very good case against them.

Quote
QuoteWhile there may not be many real-world examples of copyrights restricting the free exchange of ideas on the Internet, I don't like the Government controlling what we can say, do, or share. It's a slippery slope. It also violates my ideal of free sharing.
And taking away the ability to copyright violates my ideal of an artists being fairly confident that someone else won't take their work and present it as their own.
With the Internet, that's less likely.

QuotePlus if there aren't any real world examples of copyrights causing a kink in the free sharing of ideas what's the problem?
There probably are, I just don't have any; so I can't use it as an argument.

Quote
QuoteLike I said previously, you can't just apply old laws and business models to something completely new and unprecedented like the Internet and expect it to work. It doesn't.
Other than people ignoring the law and it not fitting your ideal for how the internet should be run...how is it not working?
How is it working in any way? It doesn't stop (many) people from doing it, and almost nobody gets caught, ever. It's just wasted government money. Kind of like the War on Drugs.

Quote from: "Whitney"I still lack seeing the difference between watching a cd burned without permission and streaming them without permission...in both cases the owner loses money they would have otherwise gotten had the person watching the moved rented or bought it instead.
Saying that pirating = loss of sales is way too simplified of a view. In a lot of cases, the pirate wouldn't have bought the item if he hadn't pirated it.

QuoteNot all movie producers are rich either, even the small movies cost money to make and they just hope they can get it back in sales.
And having copyrights will fix this?

Quote from: "terranus"That is a very good point. The internet isn't some unconquered, foreign land we're talking about here. Its really almost a whole other reality. It's absurd to think that the same rules which exist in the physical world can be transferred over to the virtual world without any significant problems.
Yes, exactly. We must move on. We must progress. We can't cling on to old rules and business models. THEY. DON'T. WORK.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: TheWilliam on January 03, 2011, 01:15:32 AM
I'm on the fence for just one reason.

I love underground mid 90s hip hop and most........ well all of those albums have been out of print since they were released. and I already paid for all the stuff I had to download but my first apt got robbed,

and i could either download them for free.

or go on ebay and pay an average of 50 dollars an album.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Ultima22689 on January 03, 2011, 02:06:26 AM
Sorry Whitney, I didn't mean to insinuate that you did. All i'm saying is, copyrights don't have much utility on the internet, many people pirate in the first place because they can't afford or are not interested enough in the content to warrant a purchase. If there is no profit to be made in the first place then what is the problem? Government tries to regulate the internet because big lobbies tell them to. Just like how big business keeps raping net neutraility. When the internet is under the censorship we will have handicapped a font of information that is supposed to change the world. The internet is far from done growing, If it is stifled then we will suffer.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Whitney on January 03, 2011, 02:38:38 AM
theoretical situation:

I'm an artist.  I create original works but since I'm not famous I can only sell a large original canvas for about $300.  However it takes me a week to complete a painting so $300 just isn't enough.  However, if I sell digital prints online I can make enough to cover my bills.  Someone who notices the high quality of my work starts buying my digital prints, scans them into CafePress and starts making a lot of money off my work.  While this is illegal if he were selling them on a street corner there is nothing I can do because the government decided digital information can't be protected under my copyright.  Now I have to go work at walmart and no longer have time to produce artwork.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Ultima22689 on January 03, 2011, 02:57:16 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"theoretical situation:

I'm an artist.  I create original works but since I'm not famous I can only sell a large original canvas for about $300.  However it takes me a week to complete a painting so $300 just isn't enough.  However, if I sell digital prints online I can make enough to cover my bills.  Someone who notices the high quality of my work starts buying my digital prints, scans them into CafePress and starts making a lot of money off my work.  While this is illegal if he were selling them on a street corner there is nothing I can do because the government decided digital information can't be protected under my copyright.  Now I have to go work at walmart and no longer have time to produce artwork.


I said the big difference with the internet is making a profit, as long as no profit is being made the internet should be censor free. Someone is making  a profit off your work, nothing is stopping you from copyrighting your painting from being sold by some guy on the street.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 03, 2011, 02:59:20 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"theoretical situation:

I'm an artist.  I create original works but since I'm not famous I can only sell a large original canvas for about $300.  However it takes me a week to complete a painting so $300 just isn't enough.  However, if I sell digital prints online I can make enough to cover my bills.  Someone who notices the high quality of my work starts buying my digital prints, scans them into CafePress and starts making a lot of money off my work.  While this is illegal if he were selling them on a street corner there is nothing I can do because the government decided digital information can't be protected under my copyright.  Now I have to go work at walmart and no longer have time to produce artwork.
Damn.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 03, 2011, 03:18:18 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"theoretical situation:

I'm an artist.  I create original works but since I'm not famous I can only sell a large original canvas for about $300.  However it takes me a week to complete a painting so $300 just isn't enough.  However, if I sell digital prints online I can make enough to cover my bills.  Someone who notices the high quality of my work starts buying my digital prints, scans them into CafePress and starts making a lot of money off my work.  While this is illegal if he were selling them on a street corner there is nothing I can do because the government decided digital information can't be protected under my copyright.  Now I have to go work at walmart and no longer have time to produce artwork.
Maybe you could sell your art with a company that can prevent that from happening.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: The Magic Pudding on January 03, 2011, 04:38:55 AM
Quote from: "terranus"The reason internet sharing is mostly considered "wrong" and illegal is because sharing violates core principles of greedy capitalism. In a true Communist state, internet sharing would never be challenged as an illegal or immoral practice. It wouldn't even be a controversial issue at all. Why do you think internet "piracy" is so much higher in countries like China?

It's more likely they do it because it's not in their interests to do otherwise, not yet anyway.  Dickens fought to have a reluctant USA recognise his intellectual property.  Times change and the USA will now have copyright issues at the top of any international trade agreement.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Wrong. It is something like we have never had before. It allows everyone to communicate with everyone else, no matter where they are, and share information. Restricting this flow of information is bad.

Well maybe, but as Whitney suggests if creators don't get paid they may not create, that would be bad.
It is a difficult problem and it's easy to say content creators should find a new model.
Maybe it's possible to create a model where legitimate providers compete against marginalised illegal competition, but if legal sanctions are removed this seems unlikely.  It's hard to compete with a competitor who doesn't pay for their inputs.
You could fill movies with more product placements, like a big commercial.

There are some things done to protect intellectual property I don't understand:
 
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Heretical Rants on January 03, 2011, 08:36:49 AM
I´m considering a career as an author. Internet piracy could end up being a real threat to my livelihood.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Whitney on January 03, 2011, 03:07:12 PM
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"
Quote from: "Whitney"theoretical situation:

I'm an artist.  I create original works but since I'm not famous I can only sell a large original canvas for about $300.  However it takes me a week to complete a painting so $300 just isn't enough.  However, if I sell digital prints online I can make enough to cover my bills.  Someone who notices the high quality of my work starts buying my digital prints, scans them into CafePress and starts making a lot of money off my work.  While this is illegal if he were selling them on a street corner there is nothing I can do because the government decided digital information can't be protected under my copyright.  Now I have to go work at walmart and no longer have time to produce artwork.
Maybe you could sell your art with a company that can prevent that from happening.

The situation I described could happen even if I was selling using the most possibly secure site for selling art.  Some guy buys one copy so that he can scan it in; the only way to prevent that from happening would be the ability to tell the individual and CafePress to cease and desist immediately or face charges (something which the artist could not do if copyright laws were discontinued or didn't apply to digital work on the internet).
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 03, 2011, 04:45:44 PM
I see your point, Whitney. Maybe current copyright laws shouldn't be eliminated completely but revised; make it illegal to profit off of other individuals' works of art, without their explicit permission.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Asmodean on January 03, 2011, 06:18:34 PM
I dislike piracy for a few reasons. Sharing what you have the right to share is not a problem though...

But then again, it's a personal thing, so I don't care a bit whether or not the "pirates" get away with it.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 03, 2011, 06:28:15 PM
Quote from: "Asmodean"Sharing what you have the right to share is not a problem though...
Who gets to say what you have the right to share? If the publisher of a CD says I can't share if with anyone else, does that mean I don't have a right to lend it to my friend for a few days?
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Asmodean on January 03, 2011, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Who gets to say what you have the right to share?
The publisher is usually about right. Basically, the owner of distribution rights to something gets to dictate how it is to be distributed and where.

QuoteIf the publisher of a CD says I can't share if with anyone else, does that mean I don't have a right to lend it to my friend for a few days?
You can lend that CD to your friend. What you can not do, however, is make a copy and give or sell it to him. You can also gift or sell the original to him provided you destroy or include the backup disk if you have created such.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 03, 2011, 08:14:35 PM
Quote from: "Asmodean"
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Who gets to say what you have the right to share?
The publisher is usually about right. Basically, the owner of distribution rights to something gets to dictate how it is to be distributed and where.

QuoteIf the publisher of a CD says I can't share if with anyone else, does that mean I don't have a right to lend it to my friend for a few days?
You can lend that CD to your friend. What you can not do, however, is make a copy and give or sell it to him. You can also gift or sell the original to him provided you destroy or include the backup disk if you have created such.
I don't think that's fair. I bought it; I get to decide what to do with it.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Whitney on January 03, 2011, 09:21:09 PM
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I don't think that's fair. I bought it; I get to decide what to do with it.

It's much the same as if you buy a mp3 song online; you only purchased the right to personal use.  If they had intended to sell you the rights to sell the music the cost associated with purchase would be much higher.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Stevil on January 03, 2011, 09:22:55 PM
Lack of intellictual property rights stifles innovation and removes incentive to produce a quality product.
As file "sharing" gets more and more common we will find movies becoming only b-grade, we will find less and less quality musicians and bands.

The problem I have with the way things are with regards to adhering to the law:
1. Difficult to discover new bands and music. I am not into popular music, I like Heavy Metal, Thrash Metal, Power Metal, Symphonic Metal and some Hard Rock. For the most part these are not broadcast on radio or tv, even when they chart No 1. I am finding that my music is currently limited to the band I discovered when I was young e.g. Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Megadeth, Annihilator etc. Viewing music illegally uploaded on You Tube helps me discover new music.
2. The price of purchasing music. $2 is way too high per song making it hard to accumulate a worthy collection of songs
3. Songs often take quite a few listens to be able to appreciate them, with no radio play and You tube being impracticle with regards to many listens it becomes necessary to download for the sake of trying out a new album or band.
4. Loudness War. Due to the perception that a loud recording sells better, bands are demanding their music volume levels be compressed and volumes pushed out beyond the limitation of the CD storage media, resulting in low dynamic range and introducing distortion with clipping. An extreme example being Metallica's Death Magnetic, the studio released version is attrocious with audible distortion throughout. In this case I don't have a problem with downloading for free the illegally remastered versions sourced from Guitar Hero.
5. I deem that I have purchased the right to a song with my cassette versions, I do not want to pay again to get versions compatible with my mp3 player.

It will be interesting to see what the future holds, maybe bands will release music recordings for free and look to make a living from concerts and merchandise only. I am deeply worried about the future of quality movies.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: TheJackel on January 03, 2011, 09:27:12 PM
Quote from: "terranus"The reason internet sharing is mostly considered "wrong" and illegal is because sharing violates core principles of greedy capitalism. In a true Communist state, internet sharing would never be challenged as an illegal or immoral practice. It wouldn't even be a controversial issue at all. Why do you think internet "piracy" is so much higher in countries like China?

So slavery and working for free to satisfy your wants and needs isn't "greedy" or a bit at all non-selfish? Is that your form of Capitalism? And why are you judging a Company's right to make a profit off a product regardless of how much potential profit there could be? At best you are rationalizing theft.


As far as discovering new Bands, music, or movies.. I wouldn't have a problem with sample material (as in parts of songs, movies, or software) being made available. But never should the full product ever be made for free unless those who made the product allow it.

There is a very easy solution to piracy.. There is no need for prison time either. So since these people think it's ok, we should just make them work for free to lower everyone's taxes. Arrest them all and make them clean our streets, cut lawns, or other various tasks since they think unwilling to work for free to benefit another is ok. Just think of all that free labor out there waiting to be tapped into. Nothing like a good old chain gain to reign in pirates. I'm sure they could even reduce company overhead by making them clean their offices lol.

So who needs DRM when you can have street sweepers?
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Heretical Rants on January 04, 2011, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: "TheWilliam"I'm on the fence for just one reason.

I love underground mid 90s hip hop and most........ well all of those albums have been out of print since they were released. and I already paid for all the stuff I had to download but my first apt got robbed,

and i could either download them for free.

or go on ebay and pay an average of 50 dollars an album.
I don't think it counts as piracy if the work in question is out of print.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Asmodean on January 04, 2011, 03:50:53 PM
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I don't think that's fair. I bought it; I get to decide what to do with it.
You bought the rights to use it, not necessarilly to distribute or modify it.

Buying a bus ticket is not the same as buying the bus, you know  :P
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 04, 2011, 03:55:50 PM
Quote from: "Asmodean"
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I don't think that's fair. I bought it; I get to decide what to do with it.
You bought the rights to use it, not necessarilly to distribute or modify it.
That's what I don't think is fair. It's like buying a pair of shoes, and then told you aren't able to mark them up or modify them in anyway.

QuoteBuying a bus ticket is not the same as buying the bus, you know  :P
Yeah, but if I bought a bus ticket, I would expect to able to do what I want with it.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: joeactor on January 04, 2011, 04:11:43 PM
Ok... I'm of 2 minds on this one...

Side A: the content creator should have rights as to how it is sold/distributed. enforcing those rights may be impossible, but the rights should be there. if the content creator chooses to give it away or allow free copies, that's their right too.

Side B: free is good.  I like free.  and lack of copyright hasn't harmed fashion or comedy - in fact it's allowed them to thrive.  Here's a great Ted Talk on this:
http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakle ... lture.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashion_s_free_culture.html)
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 04, 2011, 04:15:54 PM
Like I said earlier, I've changed my position so that now I think copyright law shouldn't be completely abolished, but I do think it should be revised. How exactly revised, I'm not sure. Anyone care to help me out?
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: TheJackel on January 04, 2011, 05:15:01 PM
Street sweepers! :)
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: terranus on January 04, 2011, 06:45:40 PM
QuoteAt best you are rationalizing theft.

Theft? How is this theft? Last time I checked, internet sharing doesn't involve breaking into some artist's music library and stealing all their music. Internet sharing involves people willing to let other people listen to/watch items that they have already paid for. I'm not seeing how this counts as theft, sorry. I mean, if I buy an apple, and decide to share some of that apple with you, does that mean the owners of the apple orchard get to sue me for copyright infringement/piracy? Not hardly. It's my right to share it because I bought it.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: TheJackel on January 04, 2011, 11:50:27 PM
Quote from: "terranus"
QuoteAt best you are rationalizing theft.

Theft? How is this theft? Last time I checked, internet sharing doesn't involve breaking into some artist's music library and stealing all their music. Internet sharing involves people willing to let other people listen to/watch items that they have already paid for. I'm not seeing how this counts as theft, sorry. I mean, if I buy an apple, and decide to share some of that apple with you, does that mean the owners of the apple orchard get to sue me for copyright infringement/piracy? Not hardly. It's my right to share it because I bought it.

Actually it does equivocate as such. It's no different than counterfeiting money or selling knock-off products as the real thing. Duplication of product on that magnitude does not constitute going to someones house and sharing music. Read the license agreements and the copyright laws. It's irrelevant how you want to rationalize it. And if you paid for it, I do believe you are allowed by law to make a back-up copy. And you do realize that most of downloaded content that is pirated is by people who haven't bought a damn thing correct? I use to be a Pirate, and I know the pirate community very well to which stretches all the way back to Tel-netting into BBS boards!. We did it because we could get shit for free, and that is essentially the sum total of the actual truth! We made the same rationalization arguments you are making right now, and they are nonsensical! Besides music, software has taken the road for the worst in terms of quality and studios are closing because of it. Hell COD has over 4 million downloads, and I can probably find over 10,000 iso links myself. It's beyond ridiculous regardless of reasons.

If pirates want to clean up their act.. Make sample-ware that is incomplete.. If you can't discover new music, software, or games via sample, you have a problem.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Sophus on January 05, 2011, 12:33:41 AM
With the Orphan Works Bill only recently dead, this is something very near and dear to me. Artists need to make a living and sell their work just like everyone else. Please don't steal.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: TheJackel on January 05, 2011, 02:17:11 AM
http://www.computerworld.com/comments/n ... 961?page=1 (http://www.computerworld.com/comments/node/9202961?page=1)

I blame the pirates for this kind of crap! Now it' going into Hardware DRM, and worst of all, that crap won't even work!
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 05, 2011, 02:39:53 AM
Quote from: "TheJackel"http://www.computerworld.com/comments/node/9202961?page=1

I blame the pirates for this kind of crap! Now it' going into Hardware DRM, and worst of all, that crap won't even work!
I'd rather blame the companies.

As of right now, I am officially undecided on the whole piracy issue.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: TheJackel on January 05, 2011, 04:09:05 AM
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"
Quote from: "TheJackel"http://www.computerworld.com/comments/node/9202961?page=1

I blame the pirates for this kind of crap! Now it' going into Hardware DRM, and worst of all, that crap won't even work!
I'd rather blame the companies.

As of right now, I am officially undecided on the whole piracy issue.

I don't.. It's just like natural selection in nature that drives evolution. People steal, companies react to protect their intellectual property that keeps them in business. If you want to be blunt, if piracy didn't exist on such a massive scale as it is today or at all, DRM wouldn't exist. This means companies make or break on the quality of their product where people vote with their wallets vs steal with their greed. Theft of this sort stifles innovation, or even makes people less likely to get involved in the industry knowing their pink slips are in order because theft has drained their funds to which include cash in bank that can keep them going when economic times are rough. Pirates like to assume they have no impact when they do regardless of how much they like to use profit margins as an excuse for their theft of intellectual property. I have simply stopped doing that crap and started buying and supporting those that make products I like. If I can't afford it, I simply accept that it is not mine to have!

So why did I buy DCS blackshark, and DCS A-10 Warthog? Because without my support, such amazing products wouldn't exist! I would end up with mass market trash, or nothing at all!

So a simple DRM solution that doesn't hurt everyone else.. Street Sweepers! A perfect idea to bring up in legislation, and town meetings.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: DJAkuma on January 05, 2011, 08:32:12 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"What about copyrighted material existing prevents the free exchange of ideas any more than it does in the "real world" and what about the internet entitles it to supersede established law?

If I remember right the original intent of copyrighting was so that one could have a few years to profit off of their work before others could freely copy and improve on it, walt disney screwed it all up by pushing for copyrights to be extended far beyond what's reasonable. I doesn't prevent the free exchange of ideas but it slows it down some.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: TheJackel on January 05, 2011, 08:52:03 AM
Quote from: "DJAkuma"
Quote from: "Whitney"What about copyrighted material existing prevents the free exchange of ideas any more than it does in the "real world" and what about the internet entitles it to supersede established law?

If I remember right the original intent of copyrighting was so that one could have a few years to profit off of their work before others could freely copy and improve on it, walt disney screwed it all up by pushing for copyrights to be extended far beyond what's reasonable. I doesn't prevent the free exchange of ideas but it slows it down some.

So you are saying that companies ought to be willing to give up their property ownership to you, as well as be limited by your standards as to how much they can make on a  product? I didn't realize this was a Pirate Theocracy.. And far I can tell, a lot of software like games are mod friendly to which come with mod tools. It's irrelevant if you think X-product needs or doesn't need improvement as that is not an argument. I don't see anything beyond reasonable here.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: The Magic Pudding on January 05, 2011, 09:24:01 AM
Quote from: "TheJackel"
Quote from: "DJAkuma"If I remember right the original intent of copyrighting was so that one could have a few years to profit off of their work before others could freely copy and improve on it, walt disney screwed it all up by pushing for copyrights to be extended far beyond what's reasonable. I doesn't prevent the free exchange of ideas but it slows it down some.

So you are saying that companies ought to be willing to give up their property ownership to you, as well as be limited by your standards as to how much they can make on a  product? I didn't realize this was a Pirate Theocracy.. And far I can tell, a lot of software like games are mod friendly to which come with mod tools. It's irrelevant if you think X-product needs or doesn't need improvement as that is not an argument. I don't see anything beyond reasonable here.

Intellectual property is an abstract principle, I don't see why governments shouldn't make laws that encourage and reward creators, but also gives as much benefit as possible to society, by enabling further development and cheaper products.  It's a matter of balance, I suppose a person with an extreme ideology or self interest may declare the whole system unfair.

QuoteGeneric drugs only become available when the original manufacturer’s patent expires. Drug companies are granted “patents” on new drugs they discover or invent. A patent gives the company a monopoly for up to 20 years â€" during that time no one else can sell that drug. This does not mean, however, that drug companies actually get a full twenty years to sell the drug.  They usually apply for a patent early in the process of developing a new drug.  Only after the FDA has approved the drug can the company sell it. This usually takes at least a few years after the company has gotten its patent. So the real amount of time that a drug company can be the only one selling a new drug is less than 20 years.  http://www.genericsarepowerful.org/learn?id=0011 (http://www.genericsarepowerful.org/learn?id=0011)

So the creators of antibiotics, should they still have a stranglehold on its production?
I don't think so, the status quo doesn't seem unreasonable, profits are there to encourage research, but eventually cheap generics will be available and further development of the product is possible. The powers that be do get it right some times, though details can be argued such as the situation in developing countries.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Asmodean on January 05, 2011, 12:15:56 PM
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Yeah, but if I bought a bus ticket, I would expect to able to do what I want with it.
And as a ticket holder is not at liberty to drive the bus or tune it or unscrew things or make blueprints to copy it, so is a CD buyer not at liberty to do those things with the information on the disk. The disk itself, however, is the metaphorical bus ticket, with which you can do what you want.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 05, 2011, 02:42:47 PM
Quote from: "Asmodean"
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Yeah, but if I bought a bus ticket, I would expect to able to do what I want with it.
And as a ticket holder is not at liberty to drive the bus or tune it or unscrew things or make blueprints to copy it, so is a CD buyer not at liberty to do those things with the information on the disk. The disk itself, however, is the metaphorical bus ticket, with which you can do what you want.
Actually, I am at liberty to do those things. The only thing that's stopping me is a law that rarely ever gets enforced.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: hismikeness on January 05, 2011, 02:50:48 PM
Quote from: "Stevil"Lack of intellictual property rights stifles innovation and removes incentive to produce a quality product.
As file "sharing" gets more and more common we will find movies becoming only b-grade, we will find less and less quality musicians and bands.

I believe the exact opposite. Piracy has taken a bite out of the artists' wallet. For years, consumers blindly purchased a CD because of a song they heard on the radio, only to find the rest of the CD was crap, just as an example. Then, along came digital music, mp3's and such, and Napster followed. Now, if I only want one song, I get one song. Then, iTunes and other online stores allowed you to buy just one song. If you remember, some record companies initially refused to allow their artist's materials on iTunes because they didn't like that model. Most have seen that it is a reasonable way for people to purchase material.

I think that piracy has improved the quality of material being released. It seems to me that movies are simply better, music is better, tv shows are better because for people that pirate to purchase, there has to be reasonable incentive.

Myself... if I'm unsure about an artist or a movie or a tv show, I will pirate (usually at a lower digital quality) it first, then if I like it I will purchase it. For too long I spent my money on crap media to blindly drop cash on stuff anymore.

And, I don't think that piracy is as widespread as people believe. More often than not people will ask me how to download, and they know nothing about it. I tell them to google, knowing that they will be routed to many "fake" sites and give up. I don't, however, tell them to google "pirate bay". But even that... you have to have the torrent program as well.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Asmodean on January 05, 2011, 06:21:43 PM
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Actually, I am at liberty to do those things. The only thing that's stopping me is a law that rarely ever gets enforced.
That... And the bus driver with a bus-sized tire iron. I think he'd get him that if you decided you wanted to drive  :pop:
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on January 05, 2011, 06:28:05 PM
Quote from: "Asmodean"You are at liberty to do whatever you want, even be it prohibited by the law, but using that liberty, you also forfeit the right to whine when the enforcers come to collect, no..?  :pop:
Nope. I can still whine if I want to. I'd just look like a damn fool.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Tom62 on January 05, 2011, 06:34:31 PM
My 2cts. Some copyright enforcement measures goes far beyond anything that is reasonable acceptable for the consumers. Examples: outrageous lawsuits against ordinary people, who downloaded just a few songs and now have to pay loads of money in "damages"; content that cannot be viewed or purchased, if you don't happen to live in the USA (like Netflix, E-Books, stuff in the Apple Store and YouTube video's); DVD's that cannot be watched on your DVD player, because of heavy copy protection and regional codes; DRM that cripples your hardware, etc. etc. etc. These types of draconian, consumer unfriendly measures have to stop.

Yes, I believe that piracy should be forbidden and that the artists should continue to make a decent living, selling their stuff on the internet. On the other hand, we should not allow ourselves to be treated as potential criminals. I also expect a fair price for digital content. It is unfair towards the customers, if a digital copy of a product is only marginally cheaper than the physical version (note: some older CD's are cheaper on Amazon than their downloadable versions in the Apple Store!). Once a digital copy is produced, there are barely any storage-, production- or shipping costs. These cost savings should be reflected in the price.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Asmodean on January 05, 2011, 07:15:40 PM
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Nope. I can still whine if I want to. I'd just look like a damn fool.
Indeed. Do what you want, then pay the price. Expecting not to pay the price is kind of foolish.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Gawen on January 15, 2011, 01:41:01 PM
There are two soundtracks I'd like to have. But I'll be damned if I'm going to pay $40 for each one (last time I looked)...coming from two Japanese movies (Onmyoji series) that virtually no one knows about, although they may have been hits in Japan. The soundtracks are not important to me, really, otherwise I would have tried ripping them from somewhere by now.

And that's my 4 halfpence...
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Event_Horizon on February 24, 2011, 04:01:26 PM
F***! Why didn't I find this thread sooner? I am actually in a debate with someone on another forum regarding copyright, piracy, and file sharing. I'll put my abbreviated argument here.

My first point is this: in capitalism we have personal property rights which allows us to combine our physical labor to manipulate material objects, making those objects property. You plant an apple tree, the labor (tilling cutting, harvesting) combined with your investment capital (seeds, water) produces fruit, and that fruit is yours. You can sell the fruit, eat the fruit, or whatever you want, because it is yours.

Second point: every human has certain rights, regardless of who or what grants them, and those rights cannot be infringed upon.

Third Point: Creators have certain human rights, and consumers have certain rights, but there is a conflict between the rights of the consumer and the rights of the creator in one central aspect: distribution. Distribution is to spread the work in any manner conceivable, and there is a conflict between who should get that right: the consumer or the creator. My argument would be that distribution rests solely with the creator because only the creator stands to gain or lose from the distribution methods they choose, and anyone who is not the creator, or has a stake in the creation's success, should not get the privilege to distribute work they have no stake in.

Fourth point: any use of force is unethical, no matter where it comes from or what kind of force it is.

Fifth point: our economic system is entirely voluntary, and does not allow for any force or coercion. This ties into my fourth point.

Finally, to define terms, there are two completely independent actions when someone refers to piracy, and I will only address one in the argument, but I'll explain the other. The pirate I focus on is the person who buys a CD, or a book, or a movie and puts it online for free. The other "pirate" is simply a person who finds such media and takes it. I don't have a problem with the latter because if the media is already there, then a completely different set of ethics is present. So with all that out of the way: here's my argument.

I find piracy simply unethical because it violates basic tenets of property, human rights, and uses force. If an author writes a book, they have ownership and distribution privileges. If the pirate then takes that book and puts it on a torrent site, or makes a PDF they are doing several unethical actions.

1: The pirate is infringing on the personal property rights and the right of distribution of the creator in choosing how distribute the media without consent, and since any kind of infringement of rights is unethical, the pirate's actions are therefore unethical.

2: The pirate uses force against the creator to distribute their media in channels that they do not want without consent, and any use of force against someone is unethical, so therefore the pirate's actions are unethical.

3: The pirate is usurping the principles of the voluntary market by involuntarily forcing the creator to compete with their own creation, and since the market MUST be voluntary, the pirate's actions break the fundamental principals of our voluntary economic system and are therefore unethical.

What it all comes down to is consent. If you take a friend's car without consent, it is theft. If you have sex with someone without their consent, it's rape. If you make someone work for you without consent, it is slavery. The logic and ethics do not change when it comes to digital media.

At least those are my thoughts for this particular moment.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on March 04, 2011, 07:33:49 PM
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... cyfaq.com/ (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Rc4tbKU5a1oJ:piracyfaq.com/)
Quote1. What is piracy?
In this context piracy refers to copyright infringement, not to trademark violation,
robbery committed at sea or counterfeiting.

2. Pirates only want content for free!
This is a common misconception about the piracy movement. Pirates are not against
artists getting support by buying their content, but the argument pirates made that
it should not be forced by the law.
Pirates encourage consumers to support content producers, but they also want the sum of human
culture to be freely available to everyone. Information is a special resource in a way, since once
it is made it can be copied to everyone at basically zero cost. This is the reason that it can be
economically shared to everyone, and there is no real reason to use the old scarcity based economical
models. Pirates have noticed that as technologies progress, so must laws, and a law based on the
technological level of the Middle Ages does not make sense in the modern information age.

3. Piracy is a form of communism, which has been "proven not to work".
It is a fallacy to claim that anything which sounds like communism must therefore to be wrong,
but in any case pirates are not generally communists. Pirate ideology attracts support from all sides of the
political spectrum. Pirates are also not against authors receiving compensation for their works,
we actually encourage it! Many content producers have noticed that by supporting piracy
their profits have increased, since piracy is free advertising for them.

The idea of communism is not related to information, since that can be copied to everyone
and no invidividual is losing resources because of this sharing. In a broader sense, communism
is an economic structure where the state owns the means of production, which is not a goal
in the piracy movement.

4. Immaterial rights don't matter.
There is a clear global trend, that information and 'intellectual property' is becoming more
and more important to the economy. Also, the development of technology is enabling people to
to consume and produce more content than ever before. At the same time, various copyright organizations
are trying to fight the piracy movement as a threat to their profits, by throwing students into jail
and sueing single parents.

5. If piracy is legal, content producers won't get paid.
According to a Canadian study, those who illegally download alot of music also buy it more[2].
The study concludes that for every 12 downloaded songs, music purchases increase by
0.44 CDs. Many downloaders have said that they simply want to preview their music
before purchase, and buy it if the CD turns out to be one they like.

6. Piracy is stealing.
Piracy is not technically nor legally stealing. Piracy is about copying information,
it is not taking away anything from anyone. Legally speaking piracy is copyright infringement,
which has no connection to stealing. It is also false that people who pirate never buy content,
since according a recent study people who download a lot of music tend to also buy it a lot[2].

Also, the argument was crafted through the use of propaganda, by calling copyrights and similar
concepts intellectual property. Since people understand the theft of property as morally wrong,
the pro-copyright people wanted to equate piracy as theft,to make it look bad or morally wrong. In reality however,
copyright is not 'intellectual property', but a monopoly created to prevent the freedom to make copies.

7. Art would die if all copying would be legalized.
Content producers can make money using the same exact ways as they used to,
by selling the content, using advertising, selling fan-products and so on.
In the future digital distribution will increase if people are given what they
demand (DRM-free products!), and studies have shown that piracy does not decrease
profits[2].One study found that those who download music illegally buy 10 times more music
than those who don't[7].

Also, there exists millions of artists who do not create art for the purpose
of making profit, but to express themselves, and release it for free for the public
to enjoy. Besides, in many countries (or in the past), internet downloading was
completely legal, and it didn't stop people from buying music and movies, and
increased penalties and legislation has not decreased piracy at all, and when
piracy has gone up profits have not gone down either.

8. How does legalizing copying help arts?
It helps the culture, since the more it is shared the more people can enjoy it,
because currently they can afford only limited amount of it. It also makes it possible
for the masses to use this content, create new remixes and mash-ups from it and therefore
create new culture.

9. Internet piracy costs the industry billions of dollars every year.
Large corporations tend to calculate how many copies of their work has been downloaded,
then simply claim that each of those downloads is counted as a "lost sale". This has two
problems. Firstly, many people preview something by first downloading it, and then buying
it if they like the product. Secondly, most of these downloads are by people who wouldn't
have bought them in the first place. Hollywood profits have been steadily increasing even
when internet piracy has increased.

10. Copyright is a form of human right.
No it isn't: the freedom to earn money from your work is a human right, but you don't need copyright
for that. Copyright restricts your right to do what you want with things you've bought - it's not a
right, it's a restriction of rights.

11. Without copyright there is no incentive to create content.
Open source, mash-ups, youtube, community projects, Star Wreck, creative commons, etc.
It is absolutely wrong to say that people wouldn't produce content without profiting,
and besides, getting rid of copyright does not mean the end of commercial content producing.
The western world produces about 1000 free songs per day, which is probably comparable
to the amount of commercial music produced, if not more.

12. Pirates are freeloaders who do not buy content.
Studies [2] have shown that those who download a lot of music, also tend to buy it a lot.
The myth that pirates are criminals who only 'steal' content has been constructed by
various copyright organizations out of fear from piracy.

13. Pirates are the reason Hollywood has declining profits.
People often assume that piracy is the reason for declining profits
in the entertainment industry, but the facts tell a different story.
In fact, in the year 2007 Hollywood reported a record breaking year for the movie industry[1].

14. Piratism is illegal, therefore it is wrong.
It is a fallacy to claim that if something is illegal, therefore it is morally wrong.
There has been laws against freedom of speech, against blasphemy or homosexuality, but
a modern society generally accepts these things. Even if it were the case that breaking the law
in itself is wrong, it is not an argument against the piracy movement. Our aim is not to encourage
law-breaking, but to change the laws itself.

15. Pirates are young people who don't understand how the society really works.
Piracy movement is mainly supported by youth for the simple reason that they are the people
most affected by the copyright legislation. Older people use new technology less, and the youth
have also grown-up during the Internet age, where people took it for granted that information could
be shared and edited to create new information.

16. Pirates just consume content but never produce it.
A main point in the piracy ideology is that it is not acceptable to protect the "rights" of the minority
of content producers by breaking the rights like privacy and freedom of speech from the majority.
However, the assumption that no content producers support piracy is wrong. Content producers from
musicians like Trent Reznor[3] to the creators of South Park[4] support piracy.
There also exists a huge indie community of video,music and game/software creators that releases their content
for free.

17. Analyzing internet traffic to detect piracy is okay if you don't break the law.
In every case when a new privacy breaching law is proposed, the argument is always
presented that if you don't break the law you have nothing to fear. The problem with
this argument is that it allows the state to monitor everything from private communications
to private life. A core argument for piracy is that to prevent it, in practice a totalitarian
Big-Brother state is needed, and we are obviously against that. "The rights of" the copyright holders
must never interfere with basic human rights such as the right to privacy. If the ISP's are forced
to install some basic packet inspecting technology at a high cost, pirates simply move to an encrypted
P2P-network in an never-ending arms-race.

18. New technology is not a reason to change laws.
New technology has been a powerful force in changing laws in the past.
For example, it used to be the case that property extented infinitely upwards from the land,
but since the introduction of airplanes that law was obviously has to be changed, since it would've
been impractical to ask permission from the thousands of landowners every flight.

We can use Moore's law to project the development of technology in the future, and it a few decades
you can buy an mp3-player that has enough disk space to hold every single song ever made, and wirelessly
transmit it to everyone around you. In this situation the only real way to prevent copyright infringement
is to implement a totalitarian big brother society, and even that will make it difficult to prevent piracy
in the future. The next generation of p2p-networks like Freenet [5] will be totally encrypted,
completely decentralized and it will be difficult to know who is sending what, or
where the files are even coming from.

19. Why don't you create a political party then?
We have done that with great frequency. Also check PP-International.

20. Artists should have rights too.
The current copyright law is effective at restricting the creation of new art,
since remixes and mash-ups can be illegal. One example is the illegal album The Grey Album,
made by Danger Mouse (of Gnarls Barkley). In a free society, people would have the right to
create new content by using old content.

21. No artist supports piracy.
Content producers from musicians like Trent Reznor[3]and novelist Paulo Coelho[6] to the creators of South Park[4] support piracy.
Alex Jones, an American radio host also advocates his fans to burn DVDs and distribute them for free. [8]
Michael Moore said after the leak of his movie: "I'm just happy that people get to see my movies.
I'm not a big supporter of the copyright laws in this country...I don't understand bands or filmmakers...
who oppose sharing, hav[ing] their work being shared by people, because it only increases your fanbase" [9].


Sources:
1. EFF: Hollywood's Record Year Shows MPAA's Piracy Folly
2. The Impact of Music Downloads and P2P File-Sharing on the Purchase of Music: A Study for Industry Canada
3. Nails frontman urges fans to steal music
4. South Park Libertarians
5. The Freenet Project
6. Alchemist Author Pirates His Own Books
7. Study: Free Music Downloaders Buy 10 Times More Music
8. Alex Jones Tv 1/5:Open Phone Lines, 2:00
9. MTV.com, Michael Moore Brushes Off 'Sicko' Leakbh, retrieved 2007-07-12

Last updated on 12.4.2010
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Thoughts?
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on March 04, 2011, 08:08:22 PM
Also, this (http://questioncopyright.org/faq).
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: Asmodean on March 04, 2011, 08:39:50 PM
Point 21: Yeah... And I can find a dozen names of artists who do NOT support piracy. You can not show a general trend with a few examples. You need statistics, the verified variety.

Other points: might get back to later.
Title: Re: Internet Piracy/Sharing: Your Thoughts?
Post by: LegendarySandwich on March 04, 2011, 08:41:58 PM
Quote from: "Asmodean"Point 21: Yeah... And I can find a dozen names of artists who do NOT support piracy. You can not show a general trend with a few examples. You need statistics, the verified variety.
The point wasn't to show that the majority of artists support piracy, the point was to show that some artists do indeed support it.