Happy Atheist Forum

God wanted stars to be in the sky. He wanted so desperately for us to see them that at the day of creation he deliberately made the universe look billions of years old so Adam and Eve could see the stars in the sky (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove). (Warning it's AnswersInGenesis. If ou prefer there's this Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis))

Every time I hear such an absurd excuse like this I think that surely it must weaken the faith of other Creationists. Saying "God Works in Mysterious Ways" actually seems vastly superior ridiculousness like this when it comes to convincing other Creationists. Do we have any ex-Creationists here that confirm this little theory of mine?  

Quote from: "Sophus"God wanted stars to be in the sky. He wanted so desperately for us to see them that at the day of creation he deliberately made the universe look billions of years old so Adam and Eve could see the stars in the sky (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove). (Warning it's AnswersInGenesis. If ou prefer there's this Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis))

Every time I hear such an absurd excuse like this I think that surely it must weaken the faith of other Creationists. Saying "God Works in Mysterious Ways" actually seems vastly superior ridiculousness like this when it comes to convincing other Creationists. Do we have any ex-Creationists here that confirm this little theory of mine?  

This is actually The single piece of misinformation that caused me to take my journey away from faith. Or at least away from fundamentalist churches in the US. As a lifelong amateur astronomer, I taught lots of classes in general astronomy and while teaching a church group about the distances involved in space, I was taken to task by some dipshit at their church for telling them that the light from the Andromeda Galaxy left there over 2 million years ago. Long story.

A church I belonged to at the time got a new pastor who believed the Earth was 6000 years old, and he wanted me to teach the church youth the new theory of Creationism to them in Sunday school ( yeah, I was a youth Sunday school teacher).

Those things were my cue to get the fuck out of the church. When I realized that biblical apologists were liars and frauds in the name of their so-called god, I knew I'd never reconcile that with my beliefs.

But it was the whole age of the universe and how it was made to look old thing that was the claxon alarm for me.

I think that this not only weakens other more moderate creation arguments, but that it also dilutes them, causes confusion, and causes infighting among church denominations. Quite frankly, it's more harmful to (at least, in my opinion) American churches than it is to science. But the bigger problem is that it becomes tied to politics somehow, and then fucks everyone!

Why doesn't it make any sense to me that a god who wants us to know about him and worship him would intentionally create everything in a way that's designed to deceive us? e.g. fossils planted to fool scientists, the speed of light being faster in the past, etc...

Quote from: "DJAkuma"Why doesn't it make any sense to me that a god who wants us to know about him and worship him would intentionally create everything in a way that's designed to deceive us? e.g. fossils planted to fool scientists, the speed of light being faster in the past, etc...

Free will, dude.  :hide:

I think once you accept one impossible thing and you are determined to believe it no matter what, you can be willing to believe a thousand other impossible things in order to support the first impossibility!

Dogma for example!

Quote from: "Sophus"God wanted stars to be in the sky. He wanted so desperately for us to see them that at the day of creation he deliberately made the universe look billions of years old so Adam and Eve could see the stars in the sky (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove). (Warning it's AnswersInGenesis. If ou prefer there's this Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis))

Every time I hear such an absurd excuse like this I think that surely it must weaken the faith of other Creationists. Saying "God Works in Mysterious Ways" actually seems vastly superior ridiculousness like this when it comes to convincing other Creationists. Do we have any ex-Creationists here that confirm this little theory of mine?  

I am particularly offend by any notion that proclaims the universe was made solely for humans. It disturbs me if any satisfaction is obtained from rubbish like this.

Quote from: "Sophus"God wanted stars to be in the sky. He wanted so desperately for us to see them that at the day of creation he deliberately made the universe look billions of years old so Adam and Eve could see the stars in the sky (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove).

What are you talking about? The linked article rejects that position.

Quote from: "Voter"

Quote from: "Sophus"God wanted stars to be in the sky. He wanted so desperately for us to see them that at the day of creation he deliberately made the universe look billions of years old so Adam and Eve could see the stars in the sky (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove).

What are you talking about? The linked article rejects that position.

The article explains the position ("Some Christians have proposed that God created the beams of light from distant stars already on their way to the earth...."). Answers in Genesis' own "explanation" is much more banal and not as comical.

In reading the article it was interesting to find that science has to invent weird stuff to explain cosmic distances.

Quote from: "Voter"In reading the article it was interesting to find that science has to invent weird stuff to explain cosmic distances.

Don't trust anything you read in Answers in Genesis. They're not known for their honesty.

Quote from: "Voter"What are you talking about? The linked article rejects that position.

The AiG page which Sophus linked is not explicit on what age of the universe it supports.  However, it does seem to be supporting a "young creation":

QuoteFrom Does Distant Starlight Prove the Universe Is Old? (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove):

When we consider all of the above, we see that distant starlight has never been a legitimate argument against the biblical timescale of a few thousand years.

In fact, the Answers in Genesis position as I understand it is one of Young Earth Creationism.

Quote from: "Voter"In reading the article it was interesting to find that science has to invent weird stuff to explain cosmic distances

Anything in particular which struck you?  Cosmology is an exciting field, and new developments have been appearing every year recently.  None of those developments has pointed to a supernatural explanation of the universe, unless somebody chooses to interpret them that way.  Why even bother though?  As the organization's name makes explicit, it is not looking to science, but the Bible for answers.  In their view, if science contradicts Genesis, then science is wrong.

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "Voter"What are you talking about? The linked article rejects that position.

The AiG page which Sophus linked is not explicit on what age of the universe it supports.  However, it does seem to be supporting a "young creation":

QuoteFrom Does Distant Starlight Prove the Universe Is Old? (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove):

When we consider all of the above, we see that distant starlight has never been a legitimate argument against the biblical timescale of a few thousand years.

In fact, the Answers in Genesis position as I understand it is one of Young Earth Creationism.

Yes, it's certainly YEC, but that article rejected the specific explanation mentioned in the OP.

Quote from: "Voter"Anything in particular which struck you?

Yes, that the universe is too young even at 14 billion years according to Bib Bang theory, and so a period of huge expansion in a fraction of a second was invented by science to make the age work.

QuoteCosmology is an exciting field, and new developments have been appearing every year recently.  None of those developments has pointed to a supernatural explanation of the universe, unless somebody chooses to interpret them that way.  Why even bother though?  As the organization's name makes explicit, it is not looking to science, but the Bible for answers.  In their view, if science contradicts Genesis, then science is wrong.

Key point bolded. It's a matter of interpretation. One can interpret the existence of comets as evidence limiting the possible age of the solar system, or interpret them as evidence of the existence of the Oort cloud and passing stars of some sort. Same with the size/age of the universe and the speed of light.

QuoteKey point bolded. It's a matter of interpretation. One can interpret the existence of comets as evidence limiting the possible age of the solar system, or interpret them as evidence of the existence of the Oort cloud and passing stars of some sort. Same with the size/age of the universe and the speed of light.

It's interesting how religion believes in an absolute objective truth until it comes to science, then everything is conveniently relative. Facts are somehow not facts and all opinions are "equal".

And they call me a nihilist....

Quote from: "Sophus"It's interesting how religion believes in an absolute objective truth until it comes to science, then everything is conveniently relative. Facts are somehow not facts and all opinions are "equal".

No they don't. Have you read the AIG article? It discusses the pros and cons of several positions before settling on one. They do not consider all opinions to be equally valid.

Hey there Voter

Which assumptions do you disagree with?
The Constancy of the Speed of Light
The Rigidity of Time
Synchronization
Naturalism
Light Travel-Time: A Self-Refuting Argument

I've read through the article and have concluded to myself that the author knows that they are misleading and confusing their audience.
The two most rediculous (to me) explainations are the idea that Speed of light is not constant and that guff in the section titled "Light Travel-Time: A Self-Refuting Argument" which is a very, very silly section.

Naturalism obviously. Haven't thought much about the others.

Quote from: "Voter"Naturalism obviously. Haven't thought much about the others.

"The Bible makes it clear that God is not bound by natural laws (they are, after all, His laws). Of course God can use laws of nature to accomplish His will; and He usually does so. In fact, natural laws could be considered a description of the way in which God normally upholds the universe. But God is supernatural and is capable of acting outside natural law."

OK, so it seems the Christian god can work within the natural laws (which is the usual case) in which case we wouldn't be able to tell the difference and one could argue that since the natural laws are in place then there is no need for a god because these laws will dictate the course of events regardless.

But it also seems that the Christian god can operate outside these laws. This is potentially what could be used to prove the existence of the Christian god. If scientist see discrepencies and non conformance to these well defined, proven laws then these could show the work of the Christian god potentially, unless it was maybe a different god or something else supernatural that caused it.

But of course the Christian god knowing the future could always ensure efforts are done in a manner whereby people will never look for them, in this way god could remain hidden.

Also scientists looking at these discrepencies and non conformance will assume the model depicting the natural laws is incorrect and will look to redefine the model.

This is most likely an entirely unprovable theory. But a valid theory none the less for those who do not expect theories to be proveable.

Quote from: "Sophus"God wanted stars to be in the sky. He wanted so desperately for us to see them that at the day of creation he deliberately made the universe look billions of years old so Adam and Eve could see the stars in the sky (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove). (Warning it's AnswersInGenesis. If ou prefer there's this Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis))

Every time I hear such an absurd excuse like this I think that surely it must weaken the faith of other Creationists. Saying "God Works in Mysterious Ways" actually seems vastly superior ridiculousness like this when it comes to convincing other Creationists. Do we have any ex-Creationists here that confirm this little theory of mine?  

my favorite when we were little teenage church kid robots.

whenever we sinned or whatever with a chick or even commented on a chick or something we'd say

"The lord knows what's in my heart"

it takes the bullshit to another level of which we're insinuating that we don't even have to repent anymore.

know the rules of the religion > knowingly break the rules > assume "god" knew we didn't really want to, and still go to heaven....

awesome.

I can remember being told in a bible study when i was aged 19 that the earth may have been constructed by God to look like it was millions of years old - at least, an omnipotent God could do that - kinda like your astronomical puzzler - however, freeing oneself from religion isnt about just disproving one lie which any intelligent person knows is controversial anyway-its about shaking off the whole set.
Christianity is something taught to you by people you trust, pillars of your family or church.  By definition you find these people wise. In addition, there are books on christian apologetics (ie christian theory) written by christians.  I read two of these written by christians with phd's'. (One was called 'Evidence that demands a verdict by josh mcdowell (or maybe Macdowell).  At the time i didnt know anyone with a phd, so i pretty much thought that evidence/theory of Josh's was trustworthy.  Like the 'great ape' in in the book 'the naked ape'-the one more senior than you and who must therefore be reliable.
These kind of people have also told me things like 'well, the baptist church doesnt say to people dont read anything that disagrees with christianity.  But in my experience, the bibles true, so I wouldnt feel the need to go to non-christian sources.'
I have also been told that there were so many holes in evolutionary theory, it couldnt be considered reliable scientific fact and was entirely questionable.  Just a theory full of holes.
The point is, the people who told me this stuff were people i trusted - what shook my belief more than anything else was seeing the diversity of thought - all christians seem to disagree on one matter or another, whether its astronomy, physics, palaentology, evolution, literary history, doctrinal, or whatever.  How can anyone say another person who holds a diffirent position about a central aspect of faith is in possession of the truth? How many versions of 'the truth' can there be?
One of the main things that convinced me christianity was true was when josh mcdowell 'proved' statistically that chritianity was true.   A few years later i read another book, (i think it was called 'Why Believe?', again written by educated christians-part of their book was spent refuting josh's methods in statistical analysis - so in a rather beautiful ironic twist the thing which made me think christianity was rational was itself blown out of the water by other christians.  Ridiculous, but true.

Quote from: "theclassicist"I can remember being told in a bible study when i was aged 19 that the earth may have been constructed by God to look like it was millions of years old - at least, an omnipotent God could do that - kinda like your astronomical puzzler - however, freeing oneself from religion isnt about just disproving one lie which any intelligent person knows is controversial anyway-its about shaking off the whole set.
Christianity is something taught to you by people you trust, pillars of your family or church.  By definition you find these people wise. In addition, there are books on christian apologetics (ie christian theory) written by christians.  I read two of these written by christians with phd's'. (One was called 'Evidence that demands a verdict by josh mcdowell (or maybe Macdowell).  At the time i didnt know anyone with a phd, so i pretty much thought that evidence/theory of Josh's was trustworthy.  Like the 'great ape' in in the book 'the naked ape'-the one more senior than you and who must therefore be reliable.
These kind of people have also told me things like 'well, the baptist church doesnt say to people dont read anything that disagrees with christianity.  But in my experience, the bibles true, so I wouldnt feel the need to go to non-christian sources.'
I have also been told that there were so many holes in evolutionary theory, it couldnt be considered reliable scientific fact and was entirely questionable.  Just a theory full of holes.
The point is, the people who told me this stuff were people i trusted - what shook my belief more than anything else was seeing the diversity of thought - all christians seem to disagree on one matter or another, whether its astronomy, physics, palaentology, evolution, literary history, doctrinal, or whatever.  How can anyone say another person who holds a diffirent position about a central aspect of faith is in possession of the truth? How many versions of 'the truth' can there be?
One of the main things that convinced me christianity was true was when josh mcdowell 'proved' statistically that chritianity was true.   A few years later i read another book, (i think it was called 'Why Believe?', again written by educated christians-part of their book was spent refuting josh's methods in statistical analysis - so in a rather beautiful ironic twist the thing which made me think christianity was rational was itself blown out of the water by other christians.  Ridiculous, but true.

Bloody hell mate, wit part of Glasgow have you been hanging around?

West End, mainly...

Quote from: "theclassicist"West End, mainly...

Thats the last place I would expect you to hear that.  

Well...not always in glasgow.  Ive seen this stuff all over the UK.  Basically when you get UK fundamentalists behind closed doors they can be every bit as extreme as the US excesses you can find on the net.  Happening in a house near you...

Quote from: "theclassicist"Happening in a house near you...

I felt distant from creationist views, in a physical sense, as most of the issues on HA are American issues - not Scottish ones. I do not know a great deal about creationism in Scotland, as incountering it was quite rare. Unless I was not looking hard enough.

Quote from: "theclassicist"Well...not always in glasgow.  Ive seen this stuff all over the UK.  Basically when you get UK fundamentalists behind closed doors they can be every bit as extreme as the US excesses you can find on the net.  Happening in a house near you...

It seems like they know it's crazy sounding and are at least too embarrassed be public about it. Where I am in the states, there are quite a few that seem to think that the embarrassment is more proof that they're right. I used all sorts of "seems like" qualifiers because I don't actually know, that's just my opinion.

I know I will not change your mind on how you believe but let me ask you a question? What makes you know for certain that there is no God? There are things that may support evolution but there are also things that point to special creation. The Bible does say that a day to God is like 1,000 years to us. Is that to say that the earth is Billions of years old? Don't know. The earth may be 6,000 years old or it may be billions of years old. Doesn't really matter. The Bible is not really a science book anyway. The Bible is more of a history book. I will ask a few more questions and then I will stop and let you respond. First: The Bible explains periods of time and catastrophic events, i.e. the flood, that have been confirmed by scientific studies. How is it that a book so old can correctly label the big world events but can't explain creation? The cultures and the people of the Bible are confirmed throughout historic and scientific studies. Jesus Himself is not questioned in His existence. The thing about Christians is we either believe all of the Bible or we believe none of it. History and your own science backs up many portions of the Bible. Creation just happens to be one that is not 100% decided by science because it can never be proven. How is it that certain parts of the Bible, that were inspired by the same God, can be proven right but the parts that can't are automatically considered fallacy?

Congrats Bornagain, never a more deserving recipient have I met.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FyBpIo.jpg&hash=3086af020af2edf884f7d6b50d3a1758fb15e673)

Quote from: "Bornagain"I know I will not change your mind on how you believe but let me ask you a question? What makes you know for certain that there is no God?

I don't, if you're referring to a deistic one. The theistic Abrahamic one however, is thoroughly disproved. Prayer has no effect, Creation is false, he has no intervention in the universe, etc, etc. He's not even falsifiable.

QuoteThere are things that may support evolution but there are also things that point to special creation.

Nope. There is not anything that points toward intelligent design. The evidence for evolution is copious.

QuoteThe Bible does say that a day to God is like 1,000 years to us.

Where?

QuoteIs that to say that the earth is Billions of years old? Don't know. The earth may be 6,000 years old or it may be billions of years old. Doesn't really matter. The Bible is not really a science book anyway.

I disagree. Religion was man's first attempt to answer the questions science now answers. So while you're right that it's not science, it is attempting to answer questions only science can.

QuoteThe Bible is more of a history book.

Not exactly. Some events in there line up with history but a great deal more also it, and natural laws.

QuoteI will ask a few more questions and then I will stop and let you respond. First: The Bible explains periods of time and catastrophic events, i.e. the flood, that have been confirmed by scientific studies.

A flood covering the entire earth has never been confirmed rather just the opposite. It's basically impossible, and moreover it didn't happen. It would've left evidence behind. We talk more about that here (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=105&start=120#p67832).

QuoteHow is it that a book so old can correctly label the big world events but can't explain creation?

Again, it's full of contradictions and nowhere near infallible. Nor is it just one book. It's many books from many different time periods and authors slapped together.

QuoteThe cultures and the people of the Bible are confirmed throughout historic and scientific studies.

And? Do other religions make up science fiction cultures in their texts?

QuoteJesus Himself is not questioned in His existence. The thing about Christians is we either believe all of the Bible or we believe none of it.

No True Scotsman Fallacy. It's your interpretation and no, there are nearly 40,000 sects of Christianity*. They don't all agree. I also like this religion pigeon on the matter:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F30.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lezsfy2Kb31qdmsaho1_500.jpg&hash=0de03b5a20d9df23d6a799a5c0b14166293150b2)

QuoteHistory and your own science backs up many portions of the Bible.

If you're going to assert this so many times you could at least provide some evidence and examples to back it up.

QuoteCreation just happens to be one that is not 100% decided by science because it can never be proven. How is it that certain parts of the Bible, that were inspired by the same God, can be proven right but the parts that can't are automatically considered fallacy?

None of it was inspired by God because he doesn't exist. And I agree, Creation can never be proven because it's not science.

* Edited after being corrected by hackenslash.

Quote from: "Sophus"there are over [strike:t0ihojo6]4,000[/strike:t0ihojo6] 30,000 sects of Christianity.

FIFY.

I would have responded to Bornagain, but Sophus and hackenslash have already done so, and so much better than I could have hoped to.

Quote from: "hackenslash"

Quote from: "Sophus"there are over [strike:3vhpdm77]4,000[/strike:3vhpdm77] 30,000 sects of Christianity.

FIFY.

Ooooh, thanks! I missed a digit. I've always heard 30,000 or 40,000. Wikipedia says 38,000. Guess I should change it to nearly 40,000.

Quote from: "Bornagain"I know I will not change your mind on how you believe but let me ask you a question? What makes you know for certain that there is no God?

Not many here claim to know that for certain. Try asking yourself this quesion: how do you know for certain some other god doesn't exist?

QuoteThere are things that may support evolution but there are also things that point to special creation.

Like what?

QuoteThe Bible does say that a day to God is like 1,000 years to us. Is that to say that the earth is Billions of years old? Don't know. The earth may be 6,000 years old or it may be billions of years old.

1,000 years X 6 [god] days = 6,000 years. So the earth (and the rest of "creation") took all of 6,000 years to form?

QuoteDoesn't really matter.

Then why read it?

QuoteThe Bible is not really a science book anyway.

If only everyone could agree on that, without jumping into...

QuoteThe Bible is more of a history book.

...that. The Bible isn't even a reliable source for the history of itself.

QuoteThe Bible explains periods of time and catastrophic events, i.e. the flood, that have been confirmed by scientific studies.

What studies? Where?

QuoteHow is it that a book so old can correctly label the big world events but can't explain creation?

Which "big world events" does it correctly predict? Even then, how would it follow that it should explain the entirely unrelated subject of "creation"?

QuoteThe cultures and the people of the Bible are confirmed throughout historic and scientific studies.

I take it you mean cultures and peoples, not people. otherwise, you'll have a very difficult time defending that statement. In fact, I'm not sure even all the cultures and peoples of the Bible are confirmed to have existed.

QuoteJesus Himself is not questioned in His existence.

Well you're in for a shock. We have a whole thread [initially intended to be] devoted to that very topic. It sucked. People on both sides get really snippy whenever the historicity of Jesus is challenged. Personally, I think he was completely fictional.

QuoteThe thing about Christians is we either believe all of the Bible or we believe none of it.

Tell that to the Christians here.

QuoteHistory and your own science backs up many portions of the Bible.

Such as?

QuoteCreation just happens to be one that is not 100% decided by science because it can never be proven.

That depends on what you mean by "creation". Science neither looks for, nor seeks to refute, creator gods. That just isn't a part of what science does or can do. That isn't a failing of science, it just isn't science's job. So whose job is it? Nobody's, it's a silly question. Evolution, on the other hand, is proven.

QuoteHow is it that certain parts of the Bible, that were inspired by the same God, can be proven right but the parts that can't are automatically considered fallacy?

1. What parts of the Bible are proven right?
2. How do you know all those parts of the Bible were inspired by the same god?
3. How do you know any part of the Bible was inspired by any god?
4. How do you know the god/gods in question was/were telling the truth?
5. How do you know the Bible, in part or in whole, wasn't made up to trick you by some other god?
6. How do you know the Bible, in part or in whole, wasn't made up to trick you by some ancient, power-hungry humans.
7. How do you know the whole thing isn't based on the hearsay and primitive folklore of bored, bronze-age goat herders with a penchant for drama?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I would have responded to Bornagain, but Sophus and hackenslash have already done so, and so much better than I could have hoped to.

You do yourself an injustice. I have read your posts with interest, and you do a good job of debunking nonsense, and in a very direct and unambiguous way. Sometimes, I know I am guilty of being over-sensitive to semantics (which I don't concede as a failing) and often being too wordy and indirect. You seem to get straight to the point, and I would enjoy readin your rebuttal, as I would undoubtedly learn something of value.

Besides, There has never been a case of somebody else providing a rebuttal in which something I missed wasn't picked up on. I don't usually miss much, but I ALWAYS miss something. Do it for my benefit, please.

I'm going to do it anyway.

Quote from: "Bornagain"I know I will not change your mind on how you believe but let me ask you a question? What makes you know for certain that there is no God?

I know for certain that the traditional Abrahamic god doesn't exist because of logical contradictions -- i.e. the contradictions between his supposed powers and the problem of evil, for example (I'm sure there more that I don't know of). Now, I don't deny that any deistic type god exists, but I don't believe in any because I have no reason to do so.

QuoteThere are things that may support evolution but there are also things that point to special creation.

Every piece of evidence we've found supports evolution. Nothing we've found supports the Bible, or "special creation".

QuoteThe Bible does say that a day to God is like 1,000 years to us.

So he could have deliberately fooled us by saying that he created the universe in six days? Why would he do that?

QuoteIs that to say that the earth is Billions of years old? Don't know.

All the related evidence says that the Earth is billions of years old, so you should know with reasonable certainty.

QuoteThe earth may be 6,000 years old or it may be billions of years old. Doesn't really matter.

It matters in the sense that God could have been purposefully misleading us or not. Admitting that the Earth is billions of years old just reduces the credibility of the Bible that much more.

QuoteThe Bible is not really a science book anyway.

Too bad. A lot of good could have come out of it if it had been.

QuoteThe Bible is more of a history book.

If I'm correct, many of the events "recorded" in the Bible don't have extra-biblical evidence supporting them, or even have evidence against them. Take the Jesus story, for instance.

QuoteI will ask a few more questions and then I will stop and let you respond. First: The Bible explains periods of time and catastrophic events, i.e. the flood, that have been confirmed by scientific studies.

No.

QuoteHow is it that a book so old can correctly label the big world events but can't explain creation?

The answer: it doesn't do either.

QuoteThe cultures and the people of the Bible are confirmed throughout historic and scientific studies.

If I'm right, only some cultures and peoples have.

QuoteJesus Himself is not questioned in His existence.

Yes, he is.

QuoteThe thing about Christians is we either believe all of the Bible or we believe none of it.

It's bad logic to assume that you either have to believe all of something or believe none of it, although I agree that in this instance it's a bit foolish to only believe some parts of the Bible and not others, as there's no way of knowing what parts are true and which aren't if you do that. In any case, you're wrong though, as some Christians do only believe in some parts of the Bible and not others. Take Achronos, for instance, who's an Orthodox Christian and doubts the validity of many parts of the Bible (he considers a lot of it to be allegorical).

QuoteHistory and your own science backs up many portions of the Bible.

No.

QuoteCreation just happens to be one that is not 100% decided by science because it can never be proven.

It's been proven many times over that a literal interpretation of Genesis is false. Period.

QuoteHow is it that certain parts of the Bible, that were inspired by the same God, can be proven right but the parts that can't are automatically considered fallacy?

The only parts of the Bible that can be proven correct are some of the historical accounts. And what do you mean by "considered fallacy"? Do you know what a logical fallacy is?

EDIT: Wow, thanks for the encouragement, hackenslash   I wrote my post before I saw that.

Hello and welcome to HAF, Bornagain.

 :P

QuoteEDIT: Wow, thanks for the encouragement, hackenslash   I wrote my post before I saw that.

Only for my own edification, and I am about to show the vallue of that, in the form of something that you pointed out, and which I will elaborate on...

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"It matters in the sense that God could have been purposefully misleading us or not.

This raises another interesting point, which I missed:

The babble shows god as good and honest, and Satan as bad and dishonest. Only thing is, when you look at the story of Adam and Eve (who didn't exist, as the evidence shows, and upon whose actions the entire myth of Judeism and Christianity are predicated, in the form or original sin), there is a bit of a problem.

Magic man says, and I quote:

Quote from: "Genesis"2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Whle the serpent (generally taken to be Satan) says:

Quote from: "Genesis"3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Now clearly, according to the tome, Neither Adam nor Eve (who didn't exist) died on that day. On the other hand, the serpent told them, quite correctly, according to this guff, that they would not die but would receive the knowledge of good and evil.

This presents two problems, which I am sure are fairly obvious to anybody with more than two functioning neurons:

1. God is supposed to be good, and Satan bad, yet god lied to them, while Satan told the truth.
2. How were Adam and Eve (who did not exist, which anybody remotely conversant with evolution, which is a demonsrable fact, knows) supposed to know the difference between good and evil before partaking ot he fruit of the tree? How could they have been aware that their defiance of god in this matter was wrong?

As Hitchens puts it so beautifully, we are created sick and commanded to be well. This is not only deeply immoral, but absolutely absurd.

Quote from: "Recusant"Hello and welcome to HAF, Bornagain.

 :)

Quote from: "hackenslash"

QuoteEDIT: Wow, thanks for the encouragement, hackenslash   I wrote my post before I saw that.

Only for my own edification, and I am about to show the vallue of that, in the form of something that you pointed out, and which I will elaborate on...

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"It matters in the sense that God could have been purposefully misleading us or not.

This raises another interesting point, which I missed:

The babble shows god as good and honest, and Satan as bad and dishonest. Only thing is, when you look at the story of Adam and Eve (who didn't exist, as the evidence shows, and upon whose actions the entire myth of Judeism and Christianity are predicated, in the form or original sin), there is a bit of a problem.

Magic man says, and I quote:

Quote from: "Genesis"2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Whle the serpent (generally taken to be Satan) says:

Quote from: "Genesis"3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Now clearly, according to the tome, Neither Adam nor Eve (who didn't exist) died on that day. On the other hand, the serpent told them, quite correctly, according to this guff, that they would not die but would receive the knowledge of good and evil.

This presents two problems, which I am sure are fairly obvious to anybody with more than two functioning neurons:

1. God is supposed to be good, and Satan bad, yet god lied to them, while Satan told the truth.
2. How were Adam and Eve (who did not exist, which anybody remotely conversant with evolution, which is a demonsrable fact, knows) supposed to know the difference between good and evil before partaking ot he fruit of the tree? How could they have been aware that their defiance of god in this matter was wrong?

As Hitchens puts it so beautifully, we are created sick and commanded to be well. This is not only deeply immoral, but absolutely absurd.

When I said that, I was thinking more along the lines of misleading the Christians into believing in creationism, but you bring up a far better point. It just further proves that the traditional Abrahamic god cannot exist, as he is clearly not omnibenevolent or even good.

Quote from: "Recusant"Hello and welcome to HAF, Bornagain.

 :P

Ditto, and best of luck to you bornagain.

Wow! Lot's of responses! As I am still new to this site it may take me a while to answer all of them. Next time, if you don't mind, could you reply in less numerous amounts of questions? That will allow me to gather adequate support for my beliefs. Most of you posted that the Abrahamic God has been PROVED wrong. How and by whom? Some of you have said that the very existence of Jesus is in question. I can understand if you want to question His deity but his very existence? And lastly you say the Bible is full of contradictions. I have yet to find one. Let's answer these questions first and then we can discuss the others!

Quote from: "Bornagain"Wow! Lot's of responses! As I am still new to this site it may take me a while to answer all of them. Next time, if you don't mind, could you reply in less numerous amounts of questions? That will allow me to gather adequate support for my beliefs.

Ah, I thought you were a hit-and-run poster. Good thing you're not. Welcome to the site! Sorry if we overloaded you with responses.

QuoteMost of you posted that the Abrahamic God has been PROVED wrong. How and by whom?

I'll let others tell you about the contradictions between the traditional Abrahamic god's supposed omni traits, and instead post this old, famous quote attributed to Epicurus:

Quote from: "Epicurus"“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Also, it'd be useful if you could check out this (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6552) thread before you respond.

QuoteSome of you have said that the very existence of Jesus is in question. I can understand if you want to question His deity but his very existence?

Yes. I'll let others respond in more detail.

QuoteAnd lastly you say the Bible is full of contradictions. I have yet to find one.

This (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html) and this (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/by_book.html) page are good to skim over if you're looking for contradictions. In fact, the whole site in general is good for that.

QuoteLet's answer these questions first and then we can discuss the others!

Sure.

Quote from: "Bornagain"Next time, if you don't mind, could you reply in less numerous amounts of questions?

Perhaps if you stuck to one assertion at a time, the questions arising therefrom would be less numerous.

QuoteThat will allow me to gather adequate support for my beliefs.

You mean you don't already have all the support for your beliefs that you require? Some would suggest that you're going about this all wrong then. Most of us here tend to think that you should have sufficient support for your beliefs before you hold them.

QuoteMost of you posted that the Abrahamic God has been PROVED wrong. How and by whom?

By me, and by the simple expedient of pointing out that he is, as described in the holy books of Judeism, Christianity and Islam, logically impossible, by virtue of having been given paradoxical and mutually exclusive attributes, such as omnipotence (paradoxical), omniscience (mutually exclusive with omnipotence), etc.

QuoteSome of you have said that the very existence of Jesus is in question. I can understand if you want to question His deity but his very existence?

Not quite. I said that the existence of Jeebus is not accepted by everyone, in response to your assertion that:

QuoteJesus Himself is not questioned in His existence.

I also pointed out that the evidence for Jeebus' existence is sufficient to think that he at least existed, although not as described in the babble. Indeed, I think that the evidence for his existence is more robust than we have any right to expect for a peasant in an occupied land. There are serious and major historical figures for whom we don't have evidence so compelling, such as Alexander the Great, Socrates, etc.

QuoteAnd lastly you say the Bible is full of contradictions. I have yet to find one.

Did you not find the one I pointed out to you? Have a read over my post again, and perhaps you will spot it. It's pretty clear, and is even introduced as a contradiction. I can provide many more, if you wish. The babble is absolutely riddled with them. Indeed, I can think of one source that cites a short list of 456 of them (I see that LS posted a link while I was typing).

QuoteLet's answer these questions first and then we can discuss the others!

How about you address some of the objections put to you first, and then we can discuss any questions you might have.

Quote from: "hackenslash"By me, and by the simple expedient of pointing out that he is, as described in the holy books of Judeism, Christianity and Islam, logically impossible, by virtue of having been given paradoxical and mutually exclusive attributes, such as omnipotence (paradoxical), omniscience (mutually exclusive with omnipotence), etc.

It'd be helpful if you could explain the problems with his attributes in more detail, or link to a page where it's explained.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "hackenslash"By me, and by the simple expedient of pointing out that he is, as described in the holy books of Judeism, Christianity and Islam, logically impossible, by virtue of having been given paradoxical and mutually exclusive attributes, such as omnipotence (paradoxical), omniscience (mutually exclusive with omnipotence), etc.

It'd be helpful if you could explain the problems with his attributes in more detail, or link to a page where it's explained.

I can do that. Let's begin with omnipotence, and a simple question:

Can this omnipotent entity build a stack of bricks so heavy that he can't lift it?

If he can, then he can't lift it, and he isn't omnipotent. If he can't, then he isn't omnipotent. In short, omnipotence is paradoxical and therefore logically impossible.

To address some of the common objections:

1. God can only do what is logically possible.

This is a bit of a poor objection, not least because it places a restriction on god's power. Further, I can build a stack of bricks so heavy that I can't lift it, so there is no logical objection to this action. Further, this also means that this is a power that I possess that this entity does not, so again omnipotence is refuted.

2. He can choose not to be able to lift it, then choose to be able to lift it.

This is the weakest bit of apologetic ever, and can be refuted with a simple sentence: The ability to choose to be able to do something is functionally equivalent to being able to do it, so the ability to lift it was always in the entity's possession.

Moving on to omniscience:

Can this entity do something that he didn't know he'd do?

If he can, then he isn't omniscient. If he can't, then he isn't omnipotent.

Again, this is a power that I possess, because I most certainly can do something that I didn't know I'd do, and I'm not omnipotent.

Omniscience also presents problems in other terms as well, as described in the bibble. For example, we are supposed to have free will. If any entity is omniscient, then the universe is deterministic, and NO will is possible, let alone free will. This becomes a very long-winded topic in its own right, which I am happy to take up in depth if necessary.

The most common objection is that this commits the modal fallacy, in that god's omniscience is not causal. What this objection always manages to evade is that omniscience is 'perfect and infallible knowledge' which, while not being causal, does constitute determinism, which refutes free will, and indeed it refutes the entire concept of will.

Another common objection is that what god actually knows is the possibilities, so that when we are faced with choice A versus choice B, he is aware of both possibilities. This is not omniscience, however. Omniscience means that he actually knows what choice we will make. Since free will is the ability to choose between one or more logically available alternatives, and since he infallibly knows which choice we will make, we do not have unrestricted ability to choose, because we cannot choose that which contrdicts his knowledge of our choice. We are restricted to what he actually knows, so the choice is an illusion, and no free will exists.

I think that will do for now.

Nice deconstruction BTW. Omnibenevolence, omnipotence and the existence of suffering also constitute a contradiction, often described as the problem of evil.

When all the stated attrbutes of this deity are taken together, it constitutes defining the entity out of existence, because all these attributes are either self-refuting or are refuted by one or more of the other stated attributes. Even comic book writers, when devising their superheros, don't make such schoolboy errors.

THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS/VERSES COME FROM ONE OF THE LINKS YOU PROVIDED ABOUT BIBLICAL CONTRADICTION. I HAVE ANSWERED SOME OF THE QUESTIONS IN QUOTATIONS UNDER THE QUESTIONS. PLEASE USE AN ORIGINAL TRANSLATION WHEN READING THE BIBLE. DO NOT TRUST THE MORMON BIBLE OR JEHOVAH'S WITNESS BIBLE.




In the beginning" 1:1
When was the universe created?
"It says in the beginning, aka, beginning of measured time, God created the Heavens and the Earth. The earth was without form. Like a floating mass. So there is the universe. The Heavens is the universe."

# "In the beginning" 1:1-2
The Gap Theory

# "Let the earth bring forth grass ... living creatures." 1:11, 1:24
Does the Bible teach evolution?
"Not sure how you got Evolution from this. Let the earth bring forth grass and creatures on it. Not meaning they derived from the earth."

# "Let them be for signs." 1:14
Does the Bible condemn astrology?
"Bible does condemn astrology for "psychic" readings and things like that. The Bible uses stars as a means of tracking time mostly for seasons of sowing and reaping crops."

# "And God made the beast of the earth." 1:25
The Christian Identity and Aryan Nations folks say that "beast of the earth" and "beast of the field" refer to all non-human animals and non-white humans. They consider all people of color to be without a soul and on the same level as animals, such as cattle, fish, and birds.
"Ok you may be talking about Mormons on this one; not Christians. Mormons are not accepted as Christianity. Jesus was a person of color. he was not white nor was He black. He is not on the same plane as animals."

# God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26
"Yes He did. Keep in mind this is before mankind fell to sin."

# "And God said, Let us make man in our image ... male and female" 1:26-27
Is God both male and female?
"No. The Bible does not say let us create man and woman in our image. Notice He created Adam first. Eve was formed from one of Adam's ribs. Christians do not take this as we look like God physically. The Bible says that God does not have a physical body but rather is a spirit. Our spirit is made the same way as God is."

# "God created man." 1:27
When was Adam created?
"That is the man he created. He was the first and only man at that time. No women yet."


# "Be fruitful and multiply." 1:28
This verse is used to justify Christian opposition to birth control, concern for the environment, and animal rights. The earth was made for humans, and they can do as they damn well please with it.
"Christians do not oppose birth control. Again I believe there are too many Mormons talking in place of Christians. The earth should be protected not abused. It's good stewardship."

# "I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth."
Is it okay to smoke marijuana?
"The Bible says not to do things to harm your body. It also says to obey the laws of your land as long as they are not against God's law. Marijuana is a tricky subject because it is illegal and harmful. It was grown naturally but so was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil."

# "To tend and keep it"
Some believers claim that this verse requires them to be environmentalists. 2:15
"Not necessarily environmentalists but good stewards. Do I think that everyone should drive big SUVs that get 12 MPG? No. That's wasteful. God is not a God that is frivolous."

# Is polygamy OK? 2:24, 4:19, 16:3, 25:1, 25:6, 26:34, 28:9, 31:17, 32:22
"Poligamy was only used back then to increase the population. God has changed His mind on the issue but it is no longer necessary to increase the numbers. Remember most humans are female. Not enough males to go around."

# In Christian Identity theology, the serpent is a black male ("beast of the field"), possessed by the devil, who seduced Eve. Cain is the child that is born from this union, the evil son of the devil and the first Jew. All Jews are descended from Cain. 3:1
"Where in the world did this come from? Not once have I heard a Christian say that. Please do not consider the Westboro Baptist Church a Christian church. Horrible example."

# "I will put enmity ... between thy seed and her seed." 3:15
The Two Seed Theory
"Enmity between the snake and human. Not different races. Which Bible did all of this come from? Some of the verses are not even accurate. I deleted one about Gen 2:2 and Armageddon? Not even relevant to that actual verse."

# "And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him." 4:15
"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." 9:6
Does God approve of capital punishment?
"Yes, yes, and even more yes. As do I."

# "And the LORD set a mark upon Cain." 4:15
The mark of Cain and Racism
"The mark of Cain was on his forehead. Not his overall skin color."

There are NO, count em, NO contradictions in the actual Bible. The Bible has been tailored to fit certain beliefs but if you get a KJV, NIV, or ESV translation, you will find 0 inaccuracies, and 0 contradictions. I can never prove to you that there is a God. He never asked me to prove that. I accept Him by faith. So you can back off of the contradictions argument.

Quote from: "Bornagain"THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS/VERSES COME FROM ONE OF THE LINKS YOU PROVIDED ABOUT BIBLICAL CONTRADICTION. I HAVE ANSWERED SOME OF THE QUESTIONS IN QUOTATIONS UNDER THE QUESTIONS. PLEASE USE AN ORIGINAL TRANSLATION WHEN READING THE BIBLE. DO NOT TRUST THE MORMON BIBLE OR JEHOVAH'S WITNESS BIBLE.

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible uses the King James translation. Also, the Book of Mormon is an entirely different Bible altogether.

You seem to have not read the links where it explains the problem in more detail.

And don't forget that the contradictions in your holy book are just one part of our counter-argument. Oh, and: you only addressed a couple of the interpretation problems, you answered the interpretation problems with your own interpretation, and you forgot the contradictions part of the site.

QuoteIn the beginning" 1:1
When was the universe created?
"It says in the beginning, aka, beginning of measured time, God created the Heavens and the Earth. The earth was without form. Like a floating mass. So there is the universe. The Heavens is the universe."

That doesn't answer anything.

Quote# "Let the earth bring forth grass ... living creatures." 1:11, 1:24
Does the Bible teach evolution?
"Not sure how you got Evolution from this. Let the earth bring forth grass and creatures on it. Not meaning they derived from the earth."

So, they came forth from the Earth, but weren't derived from the Earth? That's kind of confusing...and contradictory.

Quote# "Let them be for signs." 1:14
Does the Bible condemn astrology?
"Bible does condemn astrology for "psychic" readings and things like that. The Bible uses stars as a means of tracking time mostly for seasons of sowing and reaping crops."

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"You seem to have not read the links where it explains the problem in more detail.

Quote# "And God made the beast of the earth." 1:25
The Christian Identity and Aryan Nations folks say that "beast of the earth" and "beast of the field" refer to all non-human animals and non-white humans. They consider all people of color to be without a soul and on the same level as animals, such as cattle, fish, and birds.
"Ok you may be talking about Mormons on this one; not Christians. Mormons are not accepted as Christianity. Jesus was a person of color. he was not white nor was He black. He is not on the same plane as animals."

Uh, Mormons are Christians. No True Scotsman fallacy.

Quote# God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26
"Yes He did. Keep in mind this is before mankind fell to sin."

So?

Quote# "And God said, Let us make man in our image ... male and female" 1:26-27
Is God both male and female?
"No. The Bible does not say let us create man and woman in our image. Notice He created Adam first. Eve was formed from one of Adam's ribs. Christians do not take this as we look like God physically. The Bible says that God does not have a physical body but rather is a spirit. Our spirit is made the same way as God is."

Fair enough.

Quote# "God created man." 1:27
When was Adam created?
"That is the man he created. He was the first and only man at that time. No women yet."

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"You seem to have not read the links where it explains the problem in more detail.

Quote# "Be fruitful and multiply." 1:28
This verse is used to justify Christian opposition to birth control, concern for the environment, and animal rights. The earth was made for humans, and they can do as they damn well please with it.
"Christians do not oppose birth control. Again I believe there are too many Mormons talking in place of Christians. The earth should be protected not abused. It's good stewardship."

Uh, yeah, some Christians do. And once again, Mormons are Christians.

Quote# "I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth."
Is it okay to smoke marijuana?
"The Bible says not to do things to harm your body. It also says to obey the laws of your land as long as they are not against God's law. Marijuana is a tricky subject because it is illegal and harmful. It was grown naturally but so was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil."

God said not to eat from that darned tree, but he never said not to smoke marijuana, and he said that everything else was for man.

Quote# Is polygamy OK? 2:24, 4:19, 16:3, 25:1, 25:6, 26:34, 28:9, 31:17, 32:22
"Poligamy was only used back then to increase the population. God has changed His mind on the issue but it is no longer necessary to increase the numbers. Remember most humans are female. Not enough males to go around."

I thought God never changes. And, no, most humans are not female.

Quote# In Christian Identity theology, the serpent is a black male ("beast of the field"), possessed by the devil, who seduced Eve. Cain is the child that is born from this union, the evil son of the devil and the first Jew. All Jews are descended from Cain. 3:1
"Where in the world did this come from? Not once have I heard a Christian say that. Please do not consider the Westboro Baptist Church a Christian church. Horrible example."

No True Scotsman fallacy...again.

Quote# "I will put enmity ... between thy seed and her seed." 3:15
The Two Seed Theory
"Enmity between the snake and human. Not different races. Which Bible did all of this come from? Some of the verses are not even accurate. I deleted one about Gen 2:2 and Armageddon? Not even relevant to that actual verse."

This is the King James Bible.

Quote# "And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him." 4:15
"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." 9:6
Does God approve of capital punishment?
"Yes, yes, and even more yes. As do I."

I find that a little disturbing.

Quote# "And the LORD set a mark upon Cain." 4:15
The mark of Cain and Racism
"The mark of Cain was on his forehead. Not his overall skin color."

How do you know?

QuoteThere are NO, count em, NO contradictions in the actual Bible.

Yes, there are. (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html)

QuoteThe Bible has been tailored to fit certain beliefs but if you get a KJV, NIV, or ESV translation, you will find 0 inaccuracies, and 0 contradictions.

Yes, you will. (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html)

QuoteI can never prove to you that there is a God. He never asked me to prove that. I accept Him by faith.

I accept that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists by faith.

QuoteSo you can back off of the contradictions argument.

Wait...are you blatantly telling us that there's no point in arguing with you?

Quote from: "Bornagain"Most of you posted that the Abrahamic God has been PROVED wrong. How and by whom?

As far as I know, I'm the minority there. I'll respond this more in depth when I get the chance but the gist of it is this: when there are no elephants spotted, or their tracks or dung in Yellowstone Park absence of evidence is evidence of absence. There are no elephants in Yellowstone. There is no God intervening in this universe.

QuoteSome of you have said that the very existence of Jesus is in question. I can understand if you want to question His deity but his very existence?

Jesus (actually Yeshua) was a very common name back then. So sure, plenty of Jesus's existed. But the one written about in the gospels have been concluded by numerous historians to be either nonexistent, fictionalized or very very clouded, to say the least.

QuoteAnd lastly you say the Bible is full of contradictions. I have yet to find one. Let's answer these questions first and then we can discuss the others!

I'll start with this one. How did Judas die?  :D

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"God said not to eat from that darned tree, but he never said not to smoke marijuana, and he said that everything else was for man.

Hee hee. Did God make a mistake?

[youtube:2phzw011]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bc1iEzKHVs[/youtube:2phzw011]

Quote from: "Bornagain"THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS/VERSES COME FROM ONE OF THE LINKS YOU PROVIDED ABOUT BIBLICAL CONTRADICTION.

Really?  An overabundance of responses to your first post, and you choose to go to a link provided in one of them and answer that instead?

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "Bornagain"THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS/VERSES COME FROM ONE OF THE LINKS YOU PROVIDED ABOUT BIBLICAL CONTRADICTION.

Really?  An overabundance of responses to your first post, and you choose to go to a link provided in one of them and answer that instead? :D

That Biblical fallacy link you gave proves nothing. Take the first one about the number of people the captain of David killed. Chronicles and Samuel are 2 different stories and time periods. They are not like the Gospels in that they are 2 different accounts of the same event. 2 totally different scenarios. Secondly, I cannot stress enough that Mormons are NOT Christians. They try to be but are not accepted by the Christian Community. Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Pentecostal, and a few other denominations are considered Christianity. Mormonism is not considered Christianity because they have 3 or 4 different works of Scripture: Pearl of Great Price, Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrines and Covenants. Jehovah's Witnesses are not considered Christian's either because they question the deity and God-hood of Jesus. If you read the Bible, all the way through, you would find that everything is supported by other books of the Bible and nothing is contradictory. Look at all of the prophecies in the Bible. Isaiah prophesied about Jesus' coming. John the Baptist said "There is one coming that is greater than I of whom I am not worthy to unloose his sandals." Look at end time prophecy. Giant storms, frequent earthquakes, wars, and rumor of wars, etc. Katrina-Doesn't get much bigger than that. I don't remember a time when we have had so many earthquakes so close together. Wars and Rumor of Wars- U.S./Terrorism, Korea, Iran, Pakistan, are all involved in a war of some sort or are talking about wars. Also, why do you think the Middle East is in such turmoil? The Bible plainly tells us why. Abraham had 2 sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Isaac was the promised son so the Israelites believe they deserve the land. Ishmael was the first son but he was illegitimate and was not what God had in mind so the Arabs believe they own the land. I will say this. If you choose to believe there is no God, you better be 100% sure. If you die and meet God, what will your answer be?

By the way, God didn't say that alcohol is wrong. He didn't say that marijuana is wrong. He said to follow the law of your land, and in this land marijuana is illegal, but He also said not to harm your temple. Therefore I believe excessive alcohol, excessive junk food, tobacco use and all the like are wrong. Just in case you are wondering, I don't tell people not to do something and then go and do it myself. That is hypocritical and that is what gives Christians such a bad name.

Quote from: "Bornagain"He said to follow the law of your land, and in this land marijuana is illegal

Not if you have a prescription. Anything in excess is harmful but otherwise marijuana is not harmful at all. It can actually have benefits. It's nothing like tobacco or even alcohol.

But why are we talking about this?

I also had a typo in the last big post when I said "God has changed His mind about Polygamy." I meant to say that God has NOT changed His mind. It is just no longer necessary.

I was just addressing the issue people had with marijuana use. The Bible doesn't speak against it. Marijuana is hard on your lungs therefore harming your body.

Quote from: "Bornagain"Just in case you are wondering, I don't tell people not to do something and then go and do it myself. That is hypocritical and that is what gives Christians such a bad name.

There are many things that give Christianity a bad name, its followers being hypocritical is only a very minor point.

I really just don't understand how something so intricate as the human body could be an accident. Take the brain for example. There is no reason that should work the way it does. The perfect balance with placement and rotation of the earth. Another thing is the theory of evolution. If monkeys evolved, why are there still monkeys that breed monkeys? Wouldn't the species have already phased out?

Quote from: "Bornagain"I was just addressing the issue people had with marijuana use. The Bible doesn't speak against it. Marijuana is hard on your lungs therefore harming your body.

Well, no, not really. Also, playing football is harmful to your body but I don't see any Christians protesting that. Anyways, I won't pursue this is, it's veering from the original topic.

Stevil what else gives us a bad name?

Quote from: "Bornagain"That Biblical fallacy link you gave proves nothing.

It's not a list of fallacies, it's a list of contradictions.

QuoteTake the first one about the number of people the captain of David killed. Chronicles and Samuel are 2 different stories and time periods. They are not like the Gospels in that they are 2 different accounts of the same event. 2 totally different scenarios.

I can't comment on this, because my Biblical knowledge is weak, but the stories are pretty damn similar.

QuoteSecondly, I cannot stress enough that Mormons are NOT Christians.

Are you aware of what a No True Scotsman fallacy is?

QuoteThey try to be but are not accepted by the Christian Community.

So?

QuoteBaptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Pentecostal, and a few other denominations are considered Christianity.

By who? The majority of people? That's an argumentum ad populum, which is a logical fallacy.

QuoteMormonism is not considered Christianity because they have 3 or 4 different works of Scripture: Pearl of Great Price, Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrines and Covenants.

Again: by who, and so?

QuoteJehovah's Witnesses are not considered Christian's either because they question the deity and God-hood of Jesus.

So?

QuoteIf you read the Bible, all the way through, you would find that everything is supported by other books of the Bible and nothing is contradictory.

That's a blatant lie.

QuoteLook at all of the prophecies in the Bible. Isaiah prophesied about Jesus' coming. John the Baptist said "There is one coming that is greater than I of whom I am not worthy to unloose his sandals."

The fact that one part of your book predicts another part of your book proves nothing.

QuoteLook at end time prophecy. Giant storms, frequent earthquakes, wars, and rumor of wars, etc.

Wow! The Bible predicts that bad things will happen in the future? How could it ever know that? It must be from God!

QuoteI don't remember a time when we have had so many earthquakes so close together.

That's anecdotal evidence, which is considered invalid. Do you have any real evidence that the planet is more dangerous than it ever was before?

QuoteWars and Rumor of Wars- U.S./Terrorism, Korea, Iran, Pakistan, are all involved in a war of some sort or are talking about wars.

We've always had wars and rumors of wars. They are not exclusive to our period of history.

QuoteI will say this. If you choose to believe there is no God, you better be 100% sure. If you die and meet God, what will your answer be?

"You dick."

Also, Pacal's wager. What happens if you die and you meet the Flying Spaghetti Monster? What will you say to him then?

Quote from: "Bornagain"I really just don't understand how something so intricate as the human body could be an accident. Take the brain for example. There is no reason that should work the way it does. The perfect balance with placement and rotation of the earth. Another thing is the theory of evolution. If monkeys evolved, why are there still monkeys that breed monkeys? Wouldn't the species have already phased out?

Don't use the word "accident". That makes it sound like it shouldn't have happened. Evolution is just the opposite.

And we didn't evolve from monkeys or any apes that exist today. The ones we evolved from - like 99% of all species - have gone extinct. The reason why there are still monkeys and apes is because:

A - Humans are not the goal of evolution.
B - Evolution leads to diversity from appropriate adaptations.

Quote from: "Bornagain"If you die and meet God, what will your answer be?

"Oh there you are, you sneaky bastard!!"

Seriously though, If I died and met God (this time... he was a no show last time, and I waited for over half an hour...), how would I know it was him?

And what answer would I need? He'd have a lot more to answer for than I would. Like if he wants us to believe in him, why does he do such a good job of pretending not to be real?

Quote from: "Bornagain"By the way, God didn't say that alcohol is wrong.

Or did he? (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/alcohol.html)

QuoteHe didn't say that marijuana is wrong. He said to follow the law of your land, and in this land marijuana is illegal, but He also said not to harm your temple.

He also said we own the Earth, and that all the plants are ours. Hmm. A contradiction? But that can't be! There are no contradictions in the Bible!

QuoteJust in case you are wondering, I don't tell people not to do something and then go and do it myself. That is hypocritical and that is what gives Christians such a bad name.

Good.

Quote from: "Bornagain"I also had a typo in the last big post when I said "God has changed His mind about Polygamy." I meant to say that God has NOT changed His mind. It is just no longer necessary.

"Hm...this is no longer necessary. Therefore, I shall make it a sin!"
Where's the reasoning behind that?

Quote from: "Bornagain"I was just addressing the issue people had with marijuana use. The Bible doesn't speak against it. Marijuana is hard on your lungs therefore harming your body.

It's my body -- I'll do whatever the hell I want with it.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Bornagain"By the way, God didn't say that alcohol is wrong.

Or did he? (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/alcohol.html)

;)

If you have weak Biblical knowledge then you have no leg to stand on. How on earth can you say there are Biblical contradictions if you don't know the Bible well enough? Guys I just said that God never said alcohol is wrong! Christians choose not to drink it because it can ruin a witness and is associated with the world.

Quote from: "Bornagain"I really just don't understand how something so intricate as the human body could be an accident. Take the brain for example. There is no reason that should work the way it does.

Evolution isn't an accident. The reason it works the way it does is because of millions/billions of tiny, gradual beneficial mutations.

QuoteThe perfect balance with placement and rotation of the earth.

Who says it's perfect?

QuoteAnother thing is the theory of evolution. If monkeys evolved, why are there still monkeys that breed monkeys? Wouldn't the species have already phased out?

Humans didn't evolve from monkeys, we evolved from a common ancestor we have with monkeys.

If you have weak Biblical knowledge then you have no leg to stand on. How on earth can you say there are Biblical contradictions if you don't know the Bible well enough? Guys I just said that God never said alcohol is wrong! Christians choose not to drink it because it can ruin a witness and is associated with the world. Look at all of those references you gave. Take a look at the cultural context. God also told the Jews not to eat pork. Notice that the Scripture references talk about being drunk. Big difference between being drunk and drinking.

Quote from: "elliebean"

Quote from: "Bornagain"If you die and meet God, what will your answer be?

"Oh there you are, you sneaky bastard!!"

Seriously though, If I died and met God (this time... he was a no show last time, and I waited for over half an hour...), how would I know it was him?

And what answer would I need? He'd have a lot more to answer for than I would. Like if he wants us to believe in him, why does he do such a good job of pretending not to be real?

Because he wants us to have faith.

And if we don't have faith, we'll roast in Hell for all eternity. It's totally just and stuff.

Quote from: "Bornagain"If you have weak Biblical knowledge then you have no leg to stand on. How on earth can you say there are Biblical contradictions if you don't know the Bible well enough? Guys I just said that God never said alcohol is wrong! Christians choose not to drink it because it can ruin a witness and is associated with the world.

How would explain those verses contradicting that then? Also, I've read the Bible. I'm familiar with the contradictions. As asked before, how did Judas die?

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Bornagain"By the way, God didn't say that alcohol is wrong.

Or did he? (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/alcohol.html)

;)

Gasp...it couldn't be...a contradiction!?

By the way, the placement of earth and sun is perfect. Any closer and we burn up. Any further and we freeze. Judas killed himself. Please! Guys give me a "contradiction" that YOU know of. Not a link. Weak sauce.

Quote from: "Bornagain"If you have weak Biblical knowledge then you have no leg to stand on. How on earth can you say there are Biblical contradictions if you don't know the Bible well enough?

I know it well enough.

QuoteGuys I just said that God never said alcohol is wrong!

Actually, he did.

QuoteChristians choose not to drink it because it can ruin a witness

...What.

Quoteand is associated with the world.

Do you also not wear shoes then?

QuoteLook at all of those references you gave. Take a look at the cultural context.

I thought the Word of God was supposed to be God's unchanging word, giving wisdom to mankind of all ages, relevant to today's world?

QuoteGod also told the Jews not to eat pork.

Why would he do that?

QuoteNotice that the Scripture references talk about being drunk. Big difference between being drunk and drinking.

...Not really. That's like saying there's a real big difference between being in a car and driving.

The "contradictions" you guys choose are not even close to being contradictions. A contradiction would be if "the Israelites crossed the Red Sea on dry ground while fleeing the Egyptians" and then another account of the story said they crossed over on boats while fleeing the Egyptians.

Quote from: "Bornagain"By the way, the placement of earth and sun is perfect. Any closer and we burn up. Any further and we freeze.

I wonder why.

QuoteJudas killed himself.

...What does that have to do with anything?

QuotePlease! Guys give me a "contradiction" that YOU know of. Not a link. Weak sauce.

How about an obvious one -- the Bible says that God is a good, just, righteous god, but yet, look at the Old Testament.

Also, the Bible says that God is love, love is not jealous, and that God is jealous.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

QuoteAnother thing is the theory of evolution. If monkeys evolved, why are there still monkeys that breed monkeys? Wouldn't the species have already phased out?

Humans didn't evolve from monkeys, we evolved from a common ancestor we have with monkeys.

That might actually amount to the same thing, not that it matters for this discussion...

Species don't get "phased out". Evolution is not an assembly line at a manufacuring plant. Species become extinct if they cannot adapt to their environment well enough to suvive and propagate. The primates that are around today are sufficiently well-suited to live in their current environments.

Using the logic that monkeys shouldn't exist because they evolved into something else, one would have to wonder why more than just one species of any living thing exists.

Quote from: "Bornagain"By the way, the placement of earth and sun is perfect. Any closer and we burn up. Any further and we freeze. Judas killed himself. Please! Guys give me a "contradiction" that YOU know of. Not a link. Weak sauce.

Yes, but how did he kill himself?

Quote from: "Bornagain"The "contradictions" you guys choose are not even close to being contradictions. A contradiction would be if "the Israelites crossed the Red Sea on dry ground while fleeing the Egyptians" and then another account of the story said they crossed over on boats while fleeing the Egyptians.

So, a contradiction is only a contradiction if it's large and obvious enough?

Quote from: "elliebean"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

QuoteAnother thing is the theory of evolution. If monkeys evolved, why are there still monkeys that breed monkeys? Wouldn't the species have already phased out?

Humans didn't evolve from monkeys, we evolved from a common ancestor we have with monkeys.

That might actually amount to the same thing, not that it matters for this discussion...

Species don't get "phased out". Evolution is not an assembly line at a manufacuring plant. Species become extinct if they cannot adapt to their environment well enough to suvive and propagate. The primates that are around today are sufficiently well-suited to live in their current environments.

Using the logic that monkeys shouldn't exist because they evolved into something else, one would have to wonder why more than just one species of any living thing exists.

Yes.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Yes.

Sorry, the main part of that was meant to be directed at BA.  

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Bornagain"The "contradictions" you guys choose are not even close to being contradictions. A contradiction would be if "the Israelites crossed the Red Sea on dry ground while fleeing the Egyptians" and then another account of the story said they crossed over on boats while fleeing the Egyptians.

So, a contradiction is only a contradiction if it's large and obvious enough?

Oh, they're obvious enough. I'm assuming Bornagain may not have been familiar with the huge Judas contradiction and is now trying to find out how to explain it away.

Quote from: "Bornagain"Big difference between being drunk and drinking.

At what point would god consider a drinking person has become drunk? Please define this big difference.

Quote from: "Bornagain"Stevil what else gives us a bad name?

Why does Christianity want millions of humans to suffer in agony?

Quote from: "Stevil"

Quote from: "Bornagain"Big difference between being drunk and drinking.

At what point would god consider a drinking person has become drunk? Please define this big difference.

That's funny because it takes science to determine that.

At least one of those verses doesn't make the distinction though:

QuoteJudges 13:4
Drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing.

Judges 13:4
Drink not wine (from a box) nor strong drink without a chaser, and don't eat things that have been on the floor.


There, fixed it.

Quote from: "Bornagain"If you have weak Biblical knowledge then you have no leg to stand on. How on earth can you say there are Biblical contradictions if you don't know the Bible well enough?

I know the bible a whole hell of a lot better than you do, sonny. In fact, I wouldn't mind betting that you haven't actually read it.

Meanwhile, are you just going to erect the usual ignorant canards, like 'why are there still monkeys', or are you actually going to attempt to address the substantive and valid rebuttals to your OP? Oh, and I will come back and deal with the rest of your guff later when I have time to treat it with the attention that it doesn't deserve, but that is warranted by the other members here. Up to you, of course, but I would spend the next nine hours working on responding properly to those who have taken the time to raise valid and logical objections to the bum-custard you have already posted rather than erecting yet more inane drivel.

Ok guys. After a night's rest I am back! Hope you didn't miss me. Sophus, Judas hanged himself. Hackenslash, when you say God is love and love is never jealous, look at the love Paul was talking about. There are 3 kinds of love; Agape and Phileo, and Eros. Agape meaning perfect love. aka Godly love. Phileo meaning brotherly love. Eros meaning physical love. God is not jealous in the sense you are using it. God is jealous of people serving other "gods". Wouldn't you be jealous if your wife had her eye on some other man all the time? I have come to the conclusion that since you do not read nor believe the Bible, my arguments toward God and creation are pointless. I am not a hater of science. I just hate when people put their entire existence into science. Evolution, just like Creation, is a THEORY. Not fact. Neither one can be proven with science. God gave man the ability to understand certain things and certain things He has chosen to keep hidden. Most everything we need to know is in the Bible. Oh and the whole drinking thing; God told the Judges and certain people in position of leadership not to drink. Drinking is not proven by science. If you drink to the point where you cannot remember where you are, who you are with, or just lose most of control, you are DRUNK. That is excessive. That is like saying only science can prove you are fat from eating junk. If you are 5'5" and 300 pounds, you are overweight. I personally do not drink. When I said earlier about ruining a "witness" some of you seemed confused about it. To Christian's our witness is our reputation or our report with others. How can I call myself a Christian if I am getting drunk, saying something to someone that blows my chances of reaching them, and then waking up beside a girl I don't know? Not something Christ would have done. but then again you guys don't believe the Bible. So I leave you with some advice. Get out of your parents' basement, stop watching Star Trek, and go out and get a life. Science won't save you. Science can't comfort you like my God can.

Evolution is just a theory, controlled breathing everyone.

Quote"That defense is always... 'But evolution is only a theory'. ...Which is true. I mean... it is a theory, and it's good that they say that, I think. It gives you hope, doesn't it? That... That maybe they feel the same way about... the... theory of.......... gravity. ....And they might just float the fuck away."

Thank's Tim

Quote from: "Bornagain"Wouldn't you be jealous if your wife had her eye on some other man all the time?

I may very possibly get jealous, however there are two problems with this equivocation: I doubt my love is a perfect love, and I would not have a problem if my wife had her eye on a fictional person all the time... however I might be worried about her sanity. If god knows all, wouldn't god know that the other gods aren't real?

Quote from: "Bornagain"Evolution, just like Creation, is a THEORY. Not fact. Neither one can be proven with science.

"Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night." -- Isaac Asimov

Also, gravity is a THEORY. Not fact. Do you deny that gravity is real?

Quote from: "Bornagain"So I leave you with some advice. Get out of your parents' basement

Done years ago, they forgot to change the chains after a few months and I was able to break them due to the metal fatigue.

Quote from: "Bornagain"stop watching Star Trek

I'll probably keep watching some of the different series and movies, most episodes are not so bad and some episodes I really liked.

Quote from: "Bornagain"and go out and get a life.

Have done. However I fail to see how this advice is very useful.

Quote from: "Bornagain"Science won't save you.

I guess the new medical techniques, vaccines, food and other advancements that have saved billions of lives doesn't count.

Quote from: "Bornagain"Science can't comfort you like my God can.

I don't need comfort, I have reality.

Also, please stop preaching, it is against forum rules. Please, either acknowledge that you agree with the points made or address them. People put time and effort into addressing your points and telling you why they have an issue with them.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Bornagain"stop watching Star Trek

I'll probably keep watching some of the different series and movies, most episodes are not so bad and some episodes I really liked.

Star Trek teaches us to accept people with strange beliefs and cultures.

Quote from: "Bornagain"Ok guys. After a night's rest I am back! Hope you didn't miss me. Sophus, Judas hanged himself.

Or did he?

Quote from: "The Bible"Acts 1:18
    Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

QuoteHackenslash, when you say God is love and love is never jealous, look at the love Paul was talking about. There are 3 kinds of love; Agape and Phileo, and Eros. Agape meaning perfect love. aka Godly love. Phileo meaning brotherly love. Eros meaning physical love. God is not jealous in the sense you are using it. God is jealous of people serving other "gods". Wouldn't you be jealous if your wife had her eye on some other man all the time?

Maybe I would be jealous if I had a wife that was looking at other guys, but probably not, since I would most likely go for an open marriage (if I even got married). And there's are problems with your analogy -- first, God is perfect, and I am not, and second, the "other gods" are fictional.

QuoteI have come to the conclusion that since you do not read nor believe the Bible,

I actually do read the Bible on a regular basis.

Quotemy arguments toward God and creation are pointless.

I am come to the conclusion that since you read and believe the Bible, my arguments against it and Christianity are pointless.

QuoteI am not a hater of science. I just hate when people put their entire existence into science.

What does that mean?

QuoteEvolution, just like Creation, is a THEORY. Not fact.

The words "theory" and "fact" are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, evolution is a fact. I just realized how weird the word "fact" is.

QuoteNeither one can be proven with science.

Well, yeah, science can never prove anything absolutely (one-hundred percent). But it doesn't need to.

QuoteGod gave man the ability to understand certain things and certain things He has chosen to keep hidden.

Why?

QuoteMost everything we need to know is in the Bible.

roflol

Quote from: "Bornagain"So I leave you with some advice. Get out of your parents' basement, stop watching Star Trek, and go out and get a life. Science won't save you. Science can't comfort you like my God can.

A bit high and mighty aren't we Bornagain?  You assume so much, and know so little about us.  A little advice for you..... don't tell people what to do and quit it with the preaching, it's against forum rules viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1522 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1522) .  Science is what's going to keep you alive when you wind up in the hospital, all those years of research, medical breakthroughs etc.  But knowing your type you'll attribute all those thousands of hours of hard work to a god instead of to the people who actually did it.

An for what it's worth, my parent's don't have a basement, I haven't lived in the same state as they have for 15 years now.  Bite me on the Trek, as I LOVE it, it taught me more about how to live than that thing you call a bible, which I've read several times BTW....  And as for a life?  I own my own home, am mostly self sufficient from my farming and my flock.  I have 6 patents (2 of which are in something like 27 countries), been married 11 years now.  And I'm educated, not some dumb cluck who fell off the turnip truck last week.  Engineer to be exact, ready to be a PE once I actually take that test.

So I'll ask the big question....  Have you actually read your bible cover to cover in it's entirety?  Not a few scriptures here and there, I mean the whole thing, like sitting down and reading a novel or manuscript?  I have.  6 or 7 times, looking for answers and only finding more questions.

Quote from: "bornagain"Sophus, Judas hanged himself.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg708.imageshack.us%2Fimg708%2F2130%2Ffinalanswerlogo.jpg&hash=126632a4b87def7744ba30ec8b90f2dc4be8d3c6)

Really? Are sure he didn't fall headlong and have his guts come burst out? Because that's what a different account of the Bible says.

Quote from: "Acts 1:18"Judas had bought a field with the money he received for his treachery. Falling headfirst there, his body split open, spilling out all his intestines.

Also, how did the Field of Blood get its name? Of course, you already know why this related to the Judas question, right?

Are you going to at least acknowledge these contradictions or is this really the first time you've ever heard of them?

QuoteEvolution, just like Creation, is a THEORY. Not fact.

No. God is a theory, not a fact. Evolution is both fact and theory, similar to Atomic theory. See, that has theory in the name but you don't doubt atomic theory do you? What about gravity? It's just a theory.

QuoteGet out of your parents' basement, stop watching Star Trek, and go out and get a life.

Is this a new atheist smear? That we all live in our parents' basement?  

QuoteScience won't save you.

I like Davin's answer. If science can't save you, then don't ever get that liver transplant.

QuoteScience can't comfort you like my God can.

I have no existential angst.

Quote from: "Bornagain"Blah blah blah

That's the best you've got after a night's sleep?

I've been kind enough to respond to your posts honestly and respectfully thus far, in spite of your lack of effort or willingness to learn or even to examine anything critically, but you've shown you have no respect for anyone here, so I have no more incentive to be charitable to you and your idiotic pestering. Just like Voter, your posts from this point on are worthy of only mockery, as far as I'm concerned, until you've shown otherwise.

Quote from: "Bornagain"Ok guys. After a night's rest I am back! Hope you didn't miss me. Sophus, Judas hanged himself. Hackenslash, when you say God is love and love is never jealous, look at the love Paul was talking about. There are 3 kinds of love; Agape and Phileo, and Eros. Agape meaning perfect love. aka Godly love. Phileo meaning brotherly love. Eros meaning physical love. God is not jealous in the sense you are using it. God is jealous of people serving other "gods". Wouldn't you be jealous if your wife had her eye on some other man all the time? I have come to the conclusion that since you do not read nor believe the Bible, my arguments toward God and creation are pointless. I am not a hater of science. I just hate when people put their entire existence into science. Evolution, just like Creation, is a THEORY. Not fact. Neither one can be proven with science. God gave man the ability to understand certain things and certain things He has chosen to keep hidden. Most everything we need to know is in the Bible. Oh and the whole drinking thing; God told the Judges and certain people in position of leadership not to drink. Drinking is not proven by science. If you drink to the point where you cannot remember where you are, who you are with, or just lose most of control, you are DRUNK. That is excessive. That is like saying only science can prove you are fat from eating junk. If you are 5'5" and 300 pounds, you are overweight. I personally do not drink. When I said earlier about ruining a "witness" some of you seemed confused about it. To Christian's our witness is our reputation or our report with others. How can I call myself a Christian if I am getting drunk, saying something to someone that blows my chances of reaching them, and then waking up beside a girl I don't know? Not something Christ would have done. but then again you guys don't believe the Bible. So I leave you with some advice. Get out of your parents' basement, stop watching Star Trek, and go out and get a life. Science won't save you. Science can't comfort you like my God can.

This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=3&p=99566#p99566 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=99566#p99566) .

part of post you are getting the warning for:  "Get out of your parents' basement, stop watching Star Trek, and go out and get a life. Science won't save you. Science can't comfort you like my God can."

Aside from the above being a gross misrepresentation of pretty much everyone on the board it is just plain uncivil and not becoming of someone who just got done talking about how they can't drink because they need to represent god well.

It would be a good idea if you read the forum rules.

To speak of Trek like that is blasphemy, in some places you'd be dressed in a red shirt and sent to a certain part of compton...