If you want to panic, look at these live election results.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=elections+2016+results&FORM=ELNTFY
Things aren't looking so good for Hillary.
If Trump wins the US election reality show, then what? The guy can barely articulate a viable solution, let alone put one into action.
Hopefully we all get nuked :zombie:
Looking very interesting. Much more so than people thought.
I think that people are longing for a change. They no longer trust the establishment and career politicians. They like to see "fresh" faces, not elderly people who try to cling to power forever. Problem however is that,by doing so, they may end up in bigger shit. These are scary and dangerous times.
I'm too busy with work to hang out much this week, but just thought I'd pop in and comment on this whole Trump situation.
I don't think it matters much to me who wins the US elections, beyond my overseas stocks taking a dive proportional to Trump's lead. The point I want to make, is that electing Trump would indeed be a very American thing to do, would it not? I don't remember many US presidents. Of those I do, I remember Mr. Clinton as quite competent, then the Americans elected Bush Jr, who was a monkey in a suit. Then Obama, who did try to fix what was broken by his predecessor and will overall be remembered moderately well by me. Now that it's time to drive the USA to shits again, who better to do it than a new suited monkey?
In any case, too bad for you reasonable Americans that Hillary's chances seems to be theoretical only, but I do not lament the potential for pointing and laughing for the next four years.
Speechless.
He just won. It's all over. The ship that is America sunk. It's been an honor. *salutes*
NO NO NOOOOOO
Now the shit begins to deepen. Tom's right - people everywhere are sick of the old gang - but I fear they may change their minds before too long.
Just speechless and fed up with the dumbing down of the world.
My family left Germany in the 30's. Think they'll take me back?
People are tired of the same. Let's give the guy a chance. I think this wasnt really about support for Trump as much as it was not wanting Hillary.
I'm with you on giving him the chance. Now that he has the votes, it would be discourteous not to give him that at least. After all, it is possible that he will get enough good people in all the right positions to help him not to fuck this shit up completely.
I suspect that he will still fuck it up and the next US president will largely be on clean-up duty... Again, but I reserve judgement for a year or so.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 12:30:47 PM
People are tired of the same. Let's give the guy a chance. I think this wasnt really about support for Trump as much as it was not wanting Hillary.
Which just goes to show how Hillary was perceived! To lose against Trump with over twice the budget is quite something.
When I stepped up to vote, I felt I was voting for the future of the scotus. I'm not a big fan of trump, but the thought of Hillary makes me sick. Simply tired of being labeled a racist bigot for not supporting her.
Quote from: Tank on November 09, 2016, 10:57:39 AM
Just speechless and fed up with the dumbing down of the world.
From the movie 'Idiocracy'.
Quote from: Asmodean on November 09, 2016, 06:20:45 AM
I'm too busy with work to hang out much this week, but just thought I'd pop in and comment on this whole Trump situation.
I don't think it matters much to me who wins the US elections, beyond my overseas stocks taking a dive proportional to Trump's lead. The point I want to make, is that electing Trump would indeed be a very American thing to do, would it not? I don't remember many US presidents. Of those I do, I remember Mr. Clinton as quite competent, then the Americans elected Bush Jr, who was a monkey in a suit. Then Obama, who did try to fix what was broken by his predecessor and will overall be remembered moderately well by me. Now that it's time to drive the USA to shits again, who better to do it than a new suited monkey?
In any case, too bad for you reasonable Americans that Hillary's chances seems to be theoretical only, but I do not lament the potential for pointing and laughing for the next four years.
I think it should matter to the rest of the world because Trump's got more potential to screw up than Hillary in international matters. If his future policies only affected the US then it wouldn't matter to me.
I never thought there could be a president more ridiculous than George Bush Jr.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2016, 02:26:30 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 09, 2016, 06:20:45 AM
I'm too busy with work to hang out much this week, but just thought I'd pop in and comment on this whole Trump situation.
I don't think it matters much to me who wins the US elections, beyond my overseas stocks taking a dive proportional to Trump's lead. The point I want to make, is that electing Trump would indeed be a very American thing to do, would it not? I don't remember many US presidents. Of those I do, I remember Mr. Clinton as quite competent, then the Americans elected Bush Jr, who was a monkey in a suit. Then Obama, who did try to fix what was broken by his predecessor and will overall be remembered moderately well by me. Now that it's time to drive the USA to shits again, who better to do it than a new suited monkey?
In any case, too bad for you reasonable Americans that Hillary's chances seems to be theoretical only, but I do not lament the potential for pointing and laughing for the next four years.
I think it should matter to the rest of the world because Trump's got more potential to screw up than Hillary in international matters. If his future policies only affected the US then it wouldn't matter to me.
I never thought there could be a president more ridiculous than George Bush Jr.
The really bad part is, that most of the idiots who voted for Trump, are too stupid to be able to look back in four years and see that they made a mistake when the country gets higher unemployment and an shit economy. Because I would at least like to say, "I told you so" in the future, but it will do no good on people so thick and lacking in mirrors.
Facts don't work on the weak minded.
Maybe that is too harsh against the Trump chumps but they did willfully ignore reality and I don't know any more accurate labels for people that do so.
Well, yes. I did put in a small disclaimer about my overseas stocks, which in larger context points to the global economy going to shits. That would be bad. What I meant by "doesn't matter much to me" is that it doesn't affect me specifically in any profound way. A small and relatively open economy like Norway may as a whole feel some backlash of US isolationism, but how much of it cannot be contained remains to be seen.
So yes, it matters. To what degree, I cannot say for certain, but right here, right now, it doesn't seem to turn my life upside down any time soon.
Ridiculous Trump may be, but that's a judgement of Trump the person, not Trump the office of the president of the United States. For my part, I reserve that until such time as I have at least some facts on which to base it.
Quote from: Davin on November 09, 2016, 02:44:12 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2016, 02:26:30 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 09, 2016, 06:20:45 AM
I'm too busy with work to hang out much this week, but just thought I'd pop in and comment on this whole Trump situation.
I don't think it matters much to me who wins the US elections, beyond my overseas stocks taking a dive proportional to Trump's lead. The point I want to make, is that electing Trump would indeed be a very American thing to do, would it not? I don't remember many US presidents. Of those I do, I remember Mr. Clinton as quite competent, then the Americans elected Bush Jr, who was a monkey in a suit. Then Obama, who did try to fix what was broken by his predecessor and will overall be remembered moderately well by me. Now that it's time to drive the USA to shits again, who better to do it than a new suited monkey?
In any case, too bad for you reasonable Americans that Hillary's chances seems to be theoretical only, but I do not lament the potential for pointing and laughing for the next four years.
I think it should matter to the rest of the world because Trump's got more potential to screw up than Hillary in international matters. If his future policies only affected the US then it wouldn't matter to me.
I never thought there could be a president more ridiculous than George Bush Jr.
The really bad part is, that most of the idiots who voted for Trump, are too stupid to be able to look back in four years and see that they made a mistake when the country gets higher unemployment and an shit economy. Because I would at least like to say, "I told you so" in the future, but it will do no good on people so thick and lacking in mirrors.
Facts don't work on the weak minded.
Maybe that is too harsh against the Trump chumps but they did willfully ignore reality and I don't know any more accurate labels for people that do so.
Fact is, you and I live in different realities. But the difference is, I respect yours.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 01:34:45 PM
When I stepped up to vote, I felt I was voting for the future of the scotus. I'm not a big fan of trump, but the thought of Hillary makes me sick. Simply tired of being labeled a racist bigot for not supporting her.
It's not NOT supporting Hillary... Most people, including myself have reservations about some
of her policies.
It's supporting Trump. You do not get to support a racist, misogynist, xenophobe and then piss and moan about being "disrespected" when someone tells you it's a bullshit move.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 03:02:36 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 09, 2016, 02:44:12 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2016, 02:26:30 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 09, 2016, 06:20:45 AM
I'm too busy with work to hang out much this week, but just thought I'd pop in and comment on this whole Trump situation.
I don't think it matters much to me who wins the US elections, beyond my overseas stocks taking a dive proportional to Trump's lead. The point I want to make, is that electing Trump would indeed be a very American thing to do, would it not? I don't remember many US presidents. Of those I do, I remember Mr. Clinton as quite competent, then the Americans elected Bush Jr, who was a monkey in a suit. Then Obama, who did try to fix what was broken by his predecessor and will overall be remembered moderately well by me. Now that it's time to drive the USA to shits again, who better to do it than a new suited monkey?
In any case, too bad for you reasonable Americans that Hillary's chances seems to be theoretical only, but I do not lament the potential for pointing and laughing for the next four years.
I think it should matter to the rest of the world because Trump's got more potential to screw up than Hillary in international matters. If his future policies only affected the US then it wouldn't matter to me.
I never thought there could be a president more ridiculous than George Bush Jr.
The really bad part is, that most of the idiots who voted for Trump, are too stupid to be able to look back in four years and see that they made a mistake when the country gets higher unemployment and an shit economy. Because I would at least like to say, "I told you so" in the future, but it will do no good on people so thick and lacking in mirrors.
Facts don't work on the weak minded.
Maybe that is too harsh against the Trump chumps but they did willfully ignore reality and I don't know any more accurate labels for people that do so.
Fact is, you and I live in different realities. But the difference is, I respect yours.
That is not in fact a fact. Facts don't change person to person or based on perspectives. I don't care if you respect "my reality," but we'd all be better served if you and everyone else respected actual reality. Instead, America is going to be worse off.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 09, 2016, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 01:34:45 PM
When I stepped up to vote, I felt I was voting for the future of the scotus. I'm not a big fan of trump, but the thought of Hillary makes me sick. Simply tired of being labeled a racist bigot for not supporting her.
It's not NOT supporting Hillary... Most people, including myself have reservations about some
of her policies.
It's supporting Trump. You do not get to support a racist, misogynist, xenophobe and then piss and moan about being "disrespected" when someone tells you it's a bullshit move.
Yeah, I'm getting a lot of this from FB friends. And I'm really sorry about it, but you can't tell me so many people voted for a man who was endorsed by the KKK and the American Nazi Party and there was no racism involved.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 01:34:45 PM
When I stepped up to vote, I felt I was voting for the future of the scotus. I'm not a big fan of trump, but the thought of Hillary makes me sick. Simply tired of being labeled a racist bigot for not supporting her.
Well, my dear,
Steeler, you did vote for a man who said it's OK to grab women by the pussy, who doesn't pay taxes and hates "certain" people.
...how proud you must be. :clapping:
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 01:34:45 PM
When I stepped up to vote, I felt I was voting for the future of the scotus. I'm not a big fan of trump, but the thought of Hillary makes me sick. Simply tired of being labeled a racist bigot for not supporting her.
Look if that's the reason you voted for Trump then that's a bad reason. We should be voting for the best, not the least worse.
Davin, we just use our words differently I suppose.
Pasta and Cats, I hear it, but I don't get the racist thing.
I haven't seen anything about his past that supports him being a racist. So what if a group endorses him. Did he contact them first asking for endorsement? I haven't seen evidence of that.
Hillary's super predator comments are more racist than anything I've heard him say.
Speculate all you like about my motives for voting the anti Hillary ticket.
Tried to be respectful one last time without getting into one of the famous word nitpicking games but oh well.
For the record, his pussy comments mean nothing to me. He's a dude, that's the way dudes talk to other dudes.
Hillary is a crooked mainstream politician, tired of them.
Enjoy.
Okay, so the orange orangutan won. Enough people were fed up with the political status quo to hand supreme executive power off to an unhousebroken buffoon for no other reason than he was something different than business as usual.
Now what?
Well, for myself, I'm going to embrace the upcoming calamity that will be the Trump administration. I'm removing myself from the equation by holding no stake in the outcome so that I can watch the shitstorm that's coming and enjoy it for the entertainment value - like pulling off the road to watch the aftermath of a bad accident.
Hillary was a terrible choice from the start. Like most politicians, she's greedy, corrupt, and deceitful. She was everything nobody wanted. The DNC screwed this country by sabotaging Bernie who also represented a change, something the DNC didn't want. They wanted the status quo so they shoved Hillary down our throats and now we have President-elect Trump to show for it.
Fuck you, DNC.
If you don't see how Trump is racist, you're either filtering out information you don't want to see with stunning ability, or you are racist. And again, I'm not saying anyone is the "string n*****s up in a tree" sort of racist, but that's not the only brand of racism in the world and as America just proved, the subtle, systemic type is absolutely rampant.
Trump's Long History of Racism (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4r2yxs/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is/?client=safari)
And remember, while the consequences of any "ism" are harmful, individual statements may seem benign or even positive. "Oh, you're Asian? You must be so good at math!" IS an extremely racist statement. Which makes all of Trumps carrying on about how much he likes and hires Jews because they're so great with money really fucking gross.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 05:18:13 PM
....
For the record, his pussy comments mean nothing to me. He's a dude, that's the way dudes talk to other dudes.
...
That's fine if he is just a dumb dude ::), but now he's our president, he represents you around the world. Are you a pussy grabbing dude...like him? Can anyone grab his wife's pussy whenever they feel like it? I can't wait to see what he'll do when he meets Queen Elizabeth II, will he bow down before the queen? Shake her hand? or grab her by the...
~Very classy and educated man you voted for.
I'm sorry I'm taking it out on you,
Steeler, but you did make yourself available for this. :-\
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 05:18:13 PMFor the record, his pussy comments mean nothing to me. He's a dude, that's the way dudes talk to other dudes.
Because men are a bunch of animals who can not control their sexual urges and thus violate women freely, and that's just a-okay, just "boys being boys"?
I hope you realize that's what you're saying. Trump's offenses (both verbal and through action) are not to be taken so lightly, and when someone does brush them off like this, I can't look past it so easily.
Ah, I missed the bit about how all men talk about sexually assaulting women.
They don't. If you think these things are ok, congrats, you've probably contributed to the stat stating 1 in 3 US women have been sexually assaulted at least once.
When I played that tape for BF - the first time heard it - he literally choked, stated that if he heard someone say that he would beat the living shit out of them, and told me I should get my LTC.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 05:18:13 PMFor the record, his pussy comments mean nothing to me. He's a dude, that's the way dudes talk to other dudes.
Just another "dude", hey?
Really? :eyebrow: Some people you surround yourself with!
Quote from: Magdalena on November 09, 2016, 06:08:49 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 05:18:13 PM
....
For the record, his pussy comments mean nothing to me. He's a dude, that's the way dudes talk to other dudes.
...
That's fine if he is just a dumb dude ::), but now he's our president, he represents you around the world. Are you a pussy grabbing dude...like him? Can anyone grab his wife's pussy whenever they feel like it? I can't wait to see what he'll do when he meets Queen Elizabeth II, will he bow down before the queen? Shake her hand? or grab her by the...
~Very classy and educated man you voted for.
I'm sorry I'm taking it out on you, Steeler, but you did make yourself available for this. :-\
He said that 10 years ago. I don't think he knew he would be president then. Mountain out of mole hill. But you're ok with the alternative? Corruption gone wild?
You can take it out on me, my feelings don't get hurt easily.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 09, 2016, 06:27:00 PM
the stat stating 1 in 3 US women have been sexually assaulted at least once.
I haven't seen that stat. Can you please link a credible source?
What I have seen was that in the 2011 survey, done by the CDC, was that roughly 19% of women HAVE been raped or otherwise been contacted or in non contact sexual survivors in that 12 month period when the survey was taken. So I would believe that there is too many people out there like Trump who thinks it's manly to be sexual aggressive.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm?s_cid=ss6308a1_e
EDIT: Extra link here
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/datasources.html
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 06:38:48 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 09, 2016, 06:08:49 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 05:18:13 PM
....
For the record, his pussy comments mean nothing to me. He's a dude, that's the way dudes talk to other dudes.
...
That's fine if he is just a dumb dude ::), but now he's our president, he represents you around the world. Are you a pussy grabbing dude...like him? Can anyone grab his wife's pussy whenever they feel like it? I can't wait to see what he'll do when he meets Queen Elizabeth II, will he bow down before the queen? Shake her hand? or grab her by the...
~Very classy and educated man you voted for.
I'm sorry I'm taking it out on you, Steeler, but you did make yourself available for this. :-\
He said that 10 years ago. I don't think he knew he would be president then. Mountain out of mole hill. But you're ok with the alternative? Corruption gone wild?
You can take it out on me, my feelings don't get hurt easily.
I think it just shows, given what he said about Mexicans, is that he doesn't change.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 09, 2016, 06:27:00 PM
Ah, I missed the bit about how all men talk about sexually assaulting women.
They don't. If you think these things are ok, congrats, you've probably contributed to the stat stating 1 in 3 US women have been sexually assaulted at least once.
When I played that tape for BF - the first time heard it - he literally choked, stated that if he heard someone say that he would beat the living shit out of them, and told me I should get my LTC.
Now I've probably sexually assaulted someone? Really?
Ok, I know you all won't get it but there is obviously a huge disconnect between us. Whether that is due to geographics, or whatever but we just see things differently.
Believe me, I come from a very normal, respectful place, and no one I know sees this hinge way you guys do. Shit even my mother laughs at all this trump is a womanizer stuff. She's as proper as they come.
I'm often amazed at the how things are interpreted here. It doesn't align with anything I've ever been around. Maybe that's why this is such a small group idk.
I understand that most here are radically different from anyone I've ever known, but I respect your opinions.
I just wish for a little in return for us idiots.
As painful as it must be, Hillary and Obama are being very classy about loss and transition of power.
Quote from: Apathy on November 09, 2016, 06:39:39 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 09, 2016, 06:27:00 PM
the stat stating 1 in 3 US women have been sexually assaulted at least once.
I haven't seen that stat. Can you please link a credible source?
What I have seen was that in the 2011 survey, done by the CDC, was that roughly 19% of women HAVE been raped or otherwise been contacted or in non contact sexual survivors in that 12 month period when the survey was taken. So I would believe that there is too many people out there like Trump who thinks it's manly to be sexual aggressive.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm?s_cid=ss6308a1_e
EDIT: Extra link here
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/datasources.html
It's a working average because most statistics are highly specific, and don't always line up with each other. Actual rape is 1 in 5 women, some sources say as many as 1 in 2 women for any sexual assault (http://www.rrsonline.org/?page_id=944). Others go as high as 1 in 20 for non-rape assault but that doesn't make sense when actual rape is so much higher, and 1 in 4 girls are sexually abused before age 18 (http://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf)
And of course, all of it is grossly underreported. Nothing that has happened to me is reflected in those stats. I'd wager it's closer to every woman, but that's purely anecdotal.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 05:18:13 PM
For the record, his pussy comments mean nothing to me. He's a dude, that's the way dudes talk to other dudes.
Yeah, when we're teenagers. Eventually we grow up and start expressing ourselves like civilized men and not hormone engorged little shitheads. Trump was pushing 60 when he made his pussy comments.
He's a buffoon.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on November 09, 2016, 07:07:33 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 05:18:13 PM
For the record, his pussy comments mean nothing to me. He's a dude, that's the way dudes talk to other dudes.
Yeah, when we're teenagers. Eventually we grow up and start expressing ourselves like civilized men and not hormone engorged little shitheads. Trump was pushing 60 when he made his pussy comments.
He's a buffoon.
Never said he wasn't. But his policy closer aligns with my likes.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 05:18:13 PM
Davin, we just use our words differently I suppose.
If you're not using English, then I guess we are. The fact is, that it won't be hurting just me, it will be hurting you and most of the people in the US. The only difference between you and I, is that I'm not willingly blinding myself to reality.
Quote from: Steeler
Pasta and Cats, I hear it, but I don't get the racist thing.
I haven't seen anything about his past that supports him being a racist. So what if a group endorses him. Did he contact them first asking for endorsement? I haven't seen evidence of that.
Maybe you should read what this guy Trump says. https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4r2yxs/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is/
Quote from: SteelerHillary's super predator comments are more racist than anything I've heard him say.
Sure... sure...
Quote from: SteelerSpeculate all you like about my motives for voting the anti Hillary ticket.
Doesn't matter.
Quote from: SteelerTried to be respectful one last time without getting into one of the famous word nitpicking games but oh well.
For the record, his pussy comments mean nothing to me. He's a dude, that's the way dudes talk to other dudes.
No. It's not.
Quote from: SteelerHillary is a crooked mainstream politician, tired of them.
Enjoy.
So now we have someone who is at least 4 times worse. Good work!
You don't like Hillary because she lied, so you voted for someone who almost never tells the truth. Makes sense, sure...
You don't like Hillary because she's crooked, so you voted for someone who swindles, lies, cheats people out of pay, and worked with mobsters. Yeah, that makes sense... I mean if you don't like the smell of shit, then you would put it in your nose, right?
In almost every case that people say they don't like Hillary, so they are voting for Trump, Trump is worse. To say otherwise, is an active denial of reality.
And I'm not even mad at you, because you're hurting yourself along with every other American. It doesn't do any good in the immediate future, but hopefully, in the future, you'll finally stop denying reality and start to making rational well informed decisions. It not just for my good, it's for your own good as well.
Quote from: Davin on November 09, 2016, 07:31:28 PM
No. It's not.
Davin and I agree... Asmos must be turning Orange, or something. :???:
...Which reminds me about this thread about the thing, to which I was meaning to respond... Where was that again? Nevermind, have it bookmarked.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 07:18:07 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on November 09, 2016, 07:07:33 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 05:18:13 PM
For the record, his pussy comments mean nothing to me. He's a dude, that's the way dudes talk to other dudes.
Yeah, when we're teenagers. Eventually we grow up and start expressing ourselves like civilized men and not hormone engorged little shitheads. Trump was pushing 60 when he made his pussy comments.
He's a buffoon.
Never said he wasn't. But his policy closer aligns with my likes.
So you thought it was a good idea to hand the presidency over to a man you admit is a buffoon because you agree with his views?
You agree with the views of a buffoon?
This explains a lot about the entirety of the Trump support base and why we're now stuck with him.
You peeps don't comprehend very well. Or read what I said.
One way, your way.
Davin, your opinion is garbage to me. I'm done here.
If you heard the "lockerroom" tape, and thought "aw gee, boys will be boys! Nothing wrong with that!"
Then you do NOT respect women.
Period.
And yes, I feel that is your normal, I do think there's a good chance you're on the other side of a statistic, and you probably don't even know it.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 09, 2016, 08:16:18 PM
If you heard the "lockerroom" tape, and thought "aw gee, boys will be boys! Nothing wrong with that!"
Then you do NOT respect women.
Period.
And yes, I feel that is your normal, I do think there's a good chance you're on the other side of a statistic, and you probably don't even know it.
Ok I'm back lol. I honestly don't want you thinking that pasta.
This is exactly what I'm talking about, not understanding each other. Shit I know females that say shit as bad as he did. Now if I said that, and food it regularly to women, little different than dudes just talking shit.
Now I know you'll say that he did do it. Ok but I'm not convinced of their stories, what 15 years later? Credibility takes a little hit there with me.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 08:06:19 PM
You peeps don't comprehend very well. Or read what I said.
One way, your way.
Davin, your opinion is garbage to me. I'm done here.
Shame. I like looking at both sides of the coin with somebody who can be bothered to make the effort.
Would you change anything about Trump if you could?
Quote from: Tank on November 09, 2016, 08:40:42 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 08:06:19 PM
You peeps don't comprehend very well. Or read what I said.
One way, your way.
Davin, your opinion is garbage to me. I'm done here.
Shame. I like looking at both sides of the coin with somebody who can be bothered to make the effort.
Would you change anything about Trump if you could?
I do to Tank. That's why I came here. But I can't get one person to simply say You know what, we are just different people from different walks of life and I can respect that.
Zero give. It's seems it's my way is the only way and everybody else is a fucking red neck, idiot, racist, womanizer.
Simply because they are too ignorant to understand there are people in this world who operate differently. And that it's ok.
I'm talking to Asmo in another thread and I can tell he doesn't understand the US gun culture. That's perfectly fine, and I think he understands that it's just a different mindset I guess, nothing bad or wrong, just different.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 06:38:48 PMHe said that 10 years ago. I don't think he knew he would be president then.
First of all, what does that second sentence even mean. It sounds like you're saying that because he didn't know he was running for president yet, it was okay for him to speak publicly about violating women and it shouldn't be held against him.
Second of all, 10 years ago? Is that really that long of an amount of time for you? I mean, I'm 27 and the bad things I did as a teenager still weigh on my conscience, even though the bad things I did back then are minor teenager drama things, not anything like Trump.
News flash: Trump hasn't changed. You don't even have to look past his response to when this was dug up to find that out. He called it "locker-room banter". That kind of utter disregard shows exactly how much he HASN'T changed. And I mean, he was obvious misogynistic during the election long before this. He hasn't changed. And no way would I ever trust a man like that to change.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 09, 2016, 08:40:42 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 08:06:19 PM
You peeps don't comprehend very well. Or read what I said.
One way, your way.
Davin, your opinion is garbage to me. I'm done here.
Shame. I like looking at both sides of the coin with somebody who can be bothered to make the effort.
Would you change anything about Trump if you could?
I do to Tank. That's why I came here. But I can't get one person to simply say You know what, we are just different people from different walks of life and I can respect that.
Zero give. It's seems it's my way is the only way and everybody else is a fucking red neck, idiot, racist, womanizer.
Simply because they are too ignorant to understand there are people in this world who operate differently. And that it's ok.
I'm talking to Asmo in another thread and I can tell he doesn't understand the US gun culture. That's perfectly fine, and I think he understands that it's just a different mindset I guess, nothing bad or wrong, just different.
I suppose all types hear what they want to hear and filter out the rest.
Quote from: Harmonie on November 09, 2016, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 06:38:48 PMHe said that 10 years ago. I don't think he knew he would be president then.
First of all, what does that second sentence even mean. It sounds like you're saying that because he didn't know he was running for president yet, it was okay for him to speak publicly about violating women and it shouldn't be held against him.
Second of all, 10 years ago? Is that really that long of an amount of time for you? I mean, I'm 27 and the bad things I did as a teenager still weigh on my conscience, even though the bad things I did back then are minor teenager drama things, not anything like Trump.
News flash: Trump hasn't changed. You don't even have to look past his response to when this was dug up to find that out. He called it "locker-room banter". That kind of utter disregard shows exactly how much he HASN'T changed. And I mean, he was obvious misogynistic during the election long before this. He hasn't changed. And no way would I ever trust a man like that to change.
Sorry, I thought you were saying that he shouldn't say those things add president.
You can't trust him because of sexual stiff. I can't trust Hillary because of illegal activities while in office.
I would like to say something about this.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
I do to Tank. That's why I came here. But I can't get one person to simply say You know what, we are just different people from different walks of life and I can respect that.
This is where it gets funny because your new president, the one you voted for, doesn't agree with you on that.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
Zero give. It's seems it's my way is the only way and everybody else is a fucking red neck, idiot, racist, womanizer.
Yes, it sounds like Trump, doesn't it? Trump's way is the only way and everyone else is a fucking rapist, a drug dealer, a terrorist, or a bitch.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
Simply because they are too ignorant to understand there are people in this world who operate differently. And that it's ok.
So why did you vote for Trump if he disagrees with you? He doesn't think it's ok if there are people who operate differently. "Those people" should not enter the USA, and "those people" who operate differently, who live in the USA, should be kicked out of the country.
You are just like him, so you are safe. Those of us who "operate differently" and are not orange, will be "rounded up and will be deported in a humane way." --His words.
Quote from: Magdalena on November 09, 2016, 10:08:01 PM
I would like to say something about this.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
I do to Tank. That's why I came here. But I can't get one person to simply say You know what, we are just different people from different walks of life and I can respect that.
This is where it gets funny because your new president, the one you voted for, doesn't agree with you on that.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
Zero give. It's seems it's my way is the only way and everybody else is a fucking red neck, idiot, racist, womanizer.
Yes, it sounds like Trump, doesn't it? Trump's way is the only way and everyone else is a fucking rapist, a drug dealer, a terrorist, or a bitch.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
Simply because they are too ignorant to understand there are people in this world who operate differently. And that it's ok.
So why did you vote for Trump if he disagrees with you? He doesn't think it's ok if there are people who operate differently. "Those people" should not enter the USA, and "those people" who operate differently, who live in the USA, should be kicked out of the country.
You are just like him, so you are safe. Those of us who "operate differently" and are not orange, will be "rounded up and will be deported in a humane way." --His words.
No, I'm talking about dialog. People entering the country illegally arguably do harm to the country.
I'm talking more of opinions, or culture, not coming here illegally to milk our system.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 05:18:13 PM
Pasta and Cats, I hear it, but I don't get the racist thing.
I haven't seen anything about his past that supports him being a racist. So what if a group endorses him. Did he contact them first asking for endorsement? I haven't seen evidence of that.
Hillary's super predator comments are more racist than anything I've heard him say.
He didn't reject those endorsements either -- in fact he said he didn't know enough about the KKK to reject their endorsement. As far as things supporting his being a racist, here are a few: Here are 13 Examples of Donald Trump Being Racist (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83)
As to Clinton's super-predator remark, I looked it up. She was talking about violent gangs and I agree with her on that one.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 11:07:58 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 09, 2016, 10:08:01 PM
I would like to say something about this.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
I do to Tank. That's why I came here. But I can't get one person to simply say You know what, we are just different people from different walks of life and I can respect that.
This is where it gets funny because your new president, the one you voted for, doesn't agree with you on that.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
Zero give. It's seems it's my way is the only way and everybody else is a fucking red neck, idiot, racist, womanizer.
Yes, it sounds like Trump, doesn't it? Trump's way is the only way and everyone else is a fucking rapist, a drug dealer, a terrorist, or a bitch.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
Simply because they are too ignorant to understand there are people in this world who operate differently. And that it's ok.
So why did you vote for Trump if he disagrees with you? He doesn't think it's ok if there are people who operate differently. "Those people" should not enter the USA, and "those people" who operate differently, who live in the USA, should be kicked out of the country.
You are just like him, so you are safe. Those of us who "operate differently" and are not orange, will be "rounded up and will be deported in a humane way." --His words.
No, I'm talking about dialog. People entering the country illegally arguably do harm to the country.
I'm talking more of opinions, or culture, not coming here illegally to milk our system.
People entering the country illegally come to work and pay more taxes than Trump ever has and ever will. The government gives them a social security number so that they can report their taxes every fucking single year. Yes, the government wants their work and their taxes, punctually, but they can't become legal residents because, well... :secrets1: "They don't exist. All they do is take our jobs and apply for welfare." Wait! Which one is it?
(For your information, undocumented people don't qualify for welfare and food stamps, so let that one go.) We work and pay taxes.
Your president, and mine, on the other hand, he came from I don't know where and he did milk the system. He found "an opportunity" to not have to pay taxes, and he took advantage of it. But he's orange, so it's OK.
Edit:
It's right here if you don't believe me:
General ITIN Informationhttps://www.irs.gov/individuals/general-itin-information (https://www.irs.gov/individuals/general-itin-information)
From the IRS.
I mean ok, we "reject other people who operate differently". Maybe you just missed the point that we are "operating" with regards to probing reality and drawing conclusions from that. At least some of us. It's not rocket science (or at least this election may prove it to be so) that Donald says and does things that are what we say he is. It's ok if you disagree with our judgement, but take one look at any of the guy's speeches and you see evidence for observations.
Some illegals pay taxes, not denying that. Many don't.
As far as them not being able to get welfare, not true.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal-Immigrant-Households&ved=0ahUKEwjzpZeci53QAhUKNiYKHWgoBJsQFggjMAI&usg=AFQjCNFck7pTpSCfI-4-Dh1AgH1Xtp87mw&sig2=9zGEWuc_LKVzuW1_4yT1vw (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal-Immigrant-Households&ved=0ahUKEwjzpZeci53QAhUKNiYKHWgoBJsQFggjMAI&usg=AFQjCNFck7pTpSCfI-4-Dh1AgH1Xtp87mw&sig2=9zGEWuc_LKVzuW1_4yT1vw)
I don't see anything about them being rapists.
EDIT: Alright so you voted for the one who confirmed your beliefs, I get it. I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, it just seems mad to me that you went with a guy who says things so far out of line just to perpetuate your ideals; no matter how jaded he took them.
A couple personal observations with the immigration thing.
The company I work for does work for a few landscaping companies. One of those companies employees 20 something illegals. They are paid cash, as contracted work. This info came straight from the owner of the company. He straight up told me only 1 is legal, the rest cash their checks and send half of it back to Mexico to family.
Big deal, I don't really care.
This is the one that bothers me. My family physician is also a reserve police officer for a small city not far from me. He was also on the board of the local hospital.
Back in the early 2000's they had a massive influx of Mexicans to town. In a very short period the local police force went from 5 officers/2 cars, to 10 cars/can't remember the exact number of officers. He claims it was a direct result of the higher crime rate in the Mexican area.
The hospital went under around the time of the economy taking a dump in the late 2000's. According to him, the biggest factor in the closing was the increase in unpaid care from the immigrants.
One more quicky. I have a friend who immigrated from Bosnia who owns a trucking company. He has owned the business fire several years but claims he hasn't paid a dime in taxes due to a loophole. I can't remember the exact details but something to do with having a grace period of a couple years to help immigrants get on their feet. All he has to do is change the name of the company when the period is up, and recycle.
Good for him, totally legal. He'd fit in nicely here, big time liberal atheist.
Quote from: Apathy on November 10, 2016, 02:15:36 AM
I don't see anything about them being rapists.
EDIT: Alright so you voted for the one who confirmed your beliefs, I get it. I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, it just seems mad to me that you went with a guy who says things so far out of line just to perpetuate your ideals; no matter how jaded he took them.
He says some crazy shit no doubt. But I think it's a lot of hot air. Let's see how he governs.
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 08:37:03 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 09, 2016, 08:16:18 PM
If you heard the "lockerroom" tape, and thought "aw gee, boys will be boys! Nothing wrong with that!"
Then you do NOT respect women.
Period.
And yes, I feel that is your normal, I do think there's a good chance you're on the other side of a statistic, and you probably don't even know it.
Ok I'm back lol. I honestly don't want you thinking that pasta.
This is exactly what I'm talking about, not understanding each other. Shit I know females that say shit as bad as he did. Now if I said that, and food it regularly to women, little different than dudes just talking shit.
Now I know you'll say that he did do it. Ok but I'm not convinced of their stories, what 15 years later? Credibility takes a little hit there with me.
"-isims" are often internalized. Some of the most sexist people I know are women. Hell I got into with a girl in 8th grade because she claimed women shouldn't be allowed to play sports. One of my female bosses used to stick me on office work rather than handiwork despite my experience because "we hired a guy for that" (not a handyman, or someone with any experience, just someone with a penis) and I'm only "pretty handy for a girl." Being female doesn't negate the sexism
A mass culture telling you from day one to sit pretty and quiet and be desirable to men takes it's toll.
There are many reasons why someone wouldn't report assault. As stated, I didn't report mine. One of the primary ones being no one believes you. Having to relive trauma through the lens of having to justify it to strangers who ultimately tell you not to be such a lying whore over and over and over is horrifying
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:03:29 AM
Some illegals pay taxes, not denying that. Many don't.
As far as them not being able to get welfare, not true.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal-Immigrant-Households&ved=0ahUKEwjzpZeci53QAhUKNiYKHWgoBJsQFggjMAI&usg=AFQjCNFck7pTpSCfI-4-Dh1AgH1Xtp87mw&sig2=9zGEWuc_LKVzuW1_4yT1vw (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal-Immigrant-Households&ved=0ahUKEwjzpZeci53QAhUKNiYKHWgoBJsQFggjMAI&usg=AFQjCNFck7pTpSCfI-4-Dh1AgH1Xtp87mw&sig2=9zGEWuc_LKVzuW1_4yT1vw)
Are you calling me a liar?
Steeler... :smileshake: Don't do that.
We both know you're not into nitpicking, neither am I. Posting such a lengthy link is not your style.
Eligibility and Issuance Requirementshttp://www.calfresh.ca.gov/Pg841.htm#citizen (http://www.calfresh.ca.gov/Pg841.htm#citizen)
QuoteNon-citizens that are in the U.S. temporarily, such as students or tourists are not eligible just as undocumented individuals are not eligible.
I really don't feel like looking for websites, right now. That's for the food stamp program, you can search for the welfare one if you'd like. This topic is very complicated, and I don't feel like talking right now.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:36:30 AM
Quote from: Apathy on November 10, 2016, 02:15:36 AM
I don't see anything about them being rapists.
EDIT: Alright so you voted for the one who confirmed your beliefs, I get it. I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, it just seems mad to me that you went with a guy who says things so far out of line just to perpetuate your ideals; no matter how jaded he took them.
Let's see how he governs.
That's another thing I don't get: how can anyone elect such a wild card. We don't know what he will do because we never seen him govern or hold any public office what so ever. At least Obama had some public service and legislative experience beforehand. With this guy, he hasn't shown what he will do but has shown he is a loose cannon.
Quote from: Magdalena on November 10, 2016, 03:50:54 AM
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:03:29 AM
Some illegals pay taxes, not denying that. Many don't.
As far as them not being able to get welfare, not true.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal-Immigrant-Households&ved=0ahUKEwjzpZeci53QAhUKNiYKHWgoBJsQFggjMAI&usg=AFQjCNFck7pTpSCfI-4-Dh1AgH1Xtp87mw&sig2=9zGEWuc_LKVzuW1_4yT1vw (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal-Immigrant-Households&ved=0ahUKEwjzpZeci53QAhUKNiYKHWgoBJsQFggjMAI&usg=AFQjCNFck7pTpSCfI-4-Dh1AgH1Xtp87mw&sig2=9zGEWuc_LKVzuW1_4yT1vw)
Are you calling me a liar?
Steeler... :smileshake: Don't do that.
We both know you're not into nitpicking, neither am I. Posting such a lengthy link is not your style.
Eligibility and Issuance Requirements
http://www.calfresh.ca.gov/Pg841.htm#citizen (http://www.calfresh.ca.gov/Pg841.htm#citizen)
QuoteNon-citizens that are in the U.S. temporarily, such as students or tourists are not eligible just as undocumented individuals are not eligible.
I really don't feel like looking for websites, right now. That's for the food stamp program, you can search for the welfare one if you'd like. This topic is very complicated, and I don't feel like talking right now.
Lol you're right it isn't my style. Just pointing out that illegals do receive welfare. Though not legal for them to directly receive it, they do through their US born children.
I think I copied the wrong link. Here's the one I was looking at.
http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax (http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax)
Quote from: Apathy on November 10, 2016, 04:25:09 AM
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:36:30 AM
Quote from: Apathy on November 10, 2016, 02:15:36 AM
I don't see anything about them being rapists.
EDIT: Alright so you voted for the one who confirmed your beliefs, I get it. I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, it just seems mad to me that you went with a guy who says things so far out of line just to perpetuate your ideals; no matter how jaded he took them.
Let's see how he governs.
That's another thing I don't get: how can anyone elect such a wild card. We don't know what he will do because we never seen him govern or hold any public office what so ever. At least Obama had some public service and legislative experience beforehand. With this guy, he hasn't shown what he will do but has shown he is a loose cannon.
Because we knew exactly what we were getting with the alternative, And it looked like a turd sammich.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 04:25:32 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 10, 2016, 03:50:54 AM
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:03:29 AM
Some illegals pay taxes, not denying that. Many don't.
As far as them not being able to get welfare, not true.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal-Immigrant-Households&ved=0ahUKEwjzpZeci53QAhUKNiYKHWgoBJsQFggjMAI&usg=AFQjCNFck7pTpSCfI-4-Dh1AgH1Xtp87mw&sig2=9zGEWuc_LKVzuW1_4yT1vw (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal-Immigrant-Households&ved=0ahUKEwjzpZeci53QAhUKNiYKHWgoBJsQFggjMAI&usg=AFQjCNFck7pTpSCfI-4-Dh1AgH1Xtp87mw&sig2=9zGEWuc_LKVzuW1_4yT1vw)
Are you calling me a liar?
Steeler... :smileshake: Don't do that.
We both know you're not into nitpicking, neither am I. Posting such a lengthy link is not your style.
Eligibility and Issuance Requirements
http://www.calfresh.ca.gov/Pg841.htm#citizen (http://www.calfresh.ca.gov/Pg841.htm#citizen)
QuoteNon-citizens that are in the U.S. temporarily, such as students or tourists are not eligible just as undocumented individuals are not eligible.
I really don't feel like looking for websites, right now. That's for the food stamp program, you can search for the welfare one if you'd like. This topic is very complicated, and I don't feel like talking right now.
Lol you're right it isn't my style. Just pointing out that illegals do receive welfare. Though not legal for them to directly receive it, they do through their US born children.
I think I copied the wrong link. Here's the one I was looking at.
http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax (http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax)
...Hmm...
:notsure:
Anyways, I'm like you, I say, "Enough!" But I come back for more. ;D
About this:
Though not legal for them to directly receive it, they do through their US born children."They" have tried to pass laws to deny citizenship and all sorts of things to the children born in the USA of undocumented people. They want children born in the USA, US citizens, from undocumented people--deported as well. I believe it's unconstitutional, to "deport your own citizens." And where would you send them if they were born here? :notsure:
The statistics you presented show US born citizens with undocumented relatives taking advantage of a program that is available if they ever need help. It doesn't mean every single person uses it. Some people hate this idea, they hate the idea that US-born children are getting something to eat? :headscratch: Really?
Also, I don't know if the statistics you presented placed
Certain non-citizens such as those admitted for humanitarian reasons, who do qualify for food stamps, as "undocumented." :shrug: Also, I don't know if the laws are the same in every state. I can only speak for California. (Beautiful California) ;)
So as you can see, this is complicated, a lot of nitpicking going on, people using information to their advantage, so...
Please, I want to stop talking about it...and I have a headache. :grin:
Get some sleep Mags. I'll leave you alone now.
WAIT. You're 3 hours behind me, it's early still!!
J/k nite nite ;)
Ok so I never heard of the "Centre For Immigration Studies" from Steelers Google link so I looked it up and this is what I found:
QuoteThe Center for Immigration Studies is a conservative non-profit research organization that advocates immigration reduction in the United States. It was started as a spin-off from the Federation for American Immigration Reform in 1985. The CIS's self-described mission is to "provid[e] immigration policymakers, the academic community, news media, and concerned citizens with reliable information about the social, economic, environmental, security, and fiscal consequences of legal and illegal immigration into the United States."
Now it seems like a noble cause but when it gets to "advocating immigration reduction" I question the legitimacy. And it gives me doubts about the mission statement that follows. If this organization is about providing reliable information, then the base of it's organization is to give out information. And it advocates policy based on said information. So if that's the case, how do we know the organization is not putting out false information to perpetuate it's own goals to influence immigration policy? It would have a lot to gain by doing so if it did. So I'm not saying it's not a credible source, I am saying given the information I put above, it does not satisfy me in a scientific way.
Anyways that's it for me tonight, or rather this morning. It's 3:27 am and I think that's a good time to stop.
EDIT: forgot link
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Immigration_Studies
QuoteOne more quicky. I have a friend who immigrated from Bosnia who owns a trucking company. He has owned the business fire several years but claims he hasn't paid a dime in taxes due to a loophole. I can't remember the exact details but something to do with having a grace period of a couple years to help immigrants get on their feet. All he has to do is change the name of the company when the period is up, and recycle.
Good for him, totally legal.
Quote from: TrumpThat makes him smart!
Quote from: Steeler on November 09, 2016, 08:06:19 PM
You peeps don't comprehend very well. Or read what I said.
One way, your way.
Davin, your opinion is garbage to me. I'm done here.
It's fine if you think my opinion is garbage, but what about the facts I presented?
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:33:40 AM
This is the one that bothers me. My family physician is also a reserve police officer for a small city not far from me. He was also on the board of the local hospital.
Back in the early 2000's they had a massive influx of Mexicans to town. In a very short period the local police force went from 5 officers/2 cars, to 10 cars/can't remember the exact number of officers. He claims it was a direct result of the higher crime rate in the Mexican area.
The hospital went under around the time of the economy taking a dump in the late 2000's. According to him, the biggest factor in the closing was the increase in unpaid care from the immigrants.
One more quicky. I have a friend who immigrated from Bosnia who owns a trucking company. He has owned the business fire several years but claims he hasn't paid a dime in taxes due to a loophole. I can't remember the exact details but something to do with having a grace period of a couple years to help immigrants get on their feet. All he has to do is change the name of the company when the period is up, and recycle.
Good for him, totally legal. He'd fit in nicely here, big time liberal atheist.
Stories like these have been proven to be... inaccurate is the polite word for it, but you wouldn't happen to have any of them facts to support them would you?
The Cato Institute (not a "liberal" organization by any stretch of the imagination) examined the CIS report and found a number of problems (https://www.cato.org/blog/center-immigration-studies-exaggerates-immigrant-welfare-use) with its methodology, which call the conclusions of the report into severe doubt.
Quote from: Recusant on November 10, 2016, 01:55:07 PM
The Cato Institute (not a "liberal" organization by any stretch of the imagination) examined the CIS report and found a number of problems (https://www.cato.org/blog/center-immigration-studies-exaggerates-immigrant-welfare-use) with its methodology, which call the conclusions of the report into severe doubt.
No problem here. I just googled real quick, didn't pay any attention to who it was.
Davin, I'm at work right now, I'll get back to ya.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 06:24:50 PM
Davin, I'm at work right now, I'll get back to ya.
No worries, take your time, review your facts, and make sure you know what you're talking about this time.
Quote from: Davin on November 10, 2016, 01:38:53 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:33:40 AM
This is the one that bothers me. My family physician is also a reserve police officer for a small city not far from me. He was also on the board of the local hospital.
Back in the early 2000's they had a massive influx of Mexicans to town. In a very short period the local police force went from 5 officers/2 cars, to 10 cars/can't remember the exact number of officers. He claims it was a direct result of the higher crime rate in the Mexican area.
The hospital went under around the time of the economy taking a dump in the late 2000's. According to him, the biggest factor in the closing was the increase in unpaid care from the immigrants.
One more quicky. I have a friend who immigrated from Bosnia who owns a trucking company. He has owned the business fire several years but claims he hasn't paid a dime in taxes due to a loophole. I can't remember the exact details but something to do with having a grace period of a couple years to help immigrants get on their feet. All he has to do is change the name of the company when the period is up, and recycle.
Good for him, totally legal. He'd fit in nicely here, big time liberal atheist.
Stories like these have been proven to be... inaccurate is the polite word for it, but you wouldn't happen to have any of them facts to support them would you?
I also find them highly suspect. In this case - having owned my own business - you can't just change your business name every couple of years and maintain clients. Your name is your brand. It's how people find you. The only way this would realistically work is if that business held a strong monopoly over a pretty significant area.
And if they are true - yes, some people are shits who cheat the system. As mentioned, Trump does it and is quite proud of it, which makes voting for him because you disapprove of others doing it pretty hypocritical and also racist since we're talking exclusively about immigrants doing it. In any case those loopholes should be addressed, but isolated anecdotes are not representative of an entire system.
The only proof anyone ever has of this shit is "well I knew this guy once who..." And believe me, I've investigated this shit. The popular one up here is that you can work under $15k a year and file in such a way that the govt gives you $15k back. I was in that bracket for several years but never found any way to actually make that happen despite all the tails.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 10, 2016, 07:08:18 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 10, 2016, 01:38:53 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:33:40 AM
This is the one that bothers me. My family physician is also a reserve police officer for a small city not far from me. He was also on the board of the local hospital.
Back in the early 2000's they had a massive influx of Mexicans to town. In a very short period the local police force went from 5 officers/2 cars, to 10 cars/can't remember the exact number of officers. He claims it was a direct result of the higher crime rate in the Mexican area.
The hospital went under around the time of the economy taking a dump in the late 2000's. According to him, the biggest factor in the closing was the increase in unpaid care from the immigrants.
One more quicky. I have a friend who immigrated from Bosnia who owns a trucking company. He has owned the business fire several years but claims he hasn't paid a dime in taxes due to a loophole. I can't remember the exact details but something to do with having a grace period of a couple years to help immigrants get on their feet. All he has to do is change the name of the company when the period is up, and recycle.
Good for him, totally legal. He'd fit in nicely here, big time liberal atheist.
Stories like these have been proven to be... inaccurate is the polite word for it, but you wouldn't happen to have any of them facts to support them would you?
I also find them highly suspect. In this case - having owned my own business - you can't just change your business name every couple of years and maintain clients. Your name is your brand. It's how people find you. The only way this would realistically work is if that business held a strong monopoly over a pretty significant area.
And if they are true - yes, some people are shits who cheat the system. As mentioned, Trump does it and is quite proud of it, which makes voting for him because you disapprove of others doing it pretty hypocritical and also racist since we're talking exclusively about immigrants doing it. In any case those loopholes should be addressed, but isolated anecdotes are not representative of an entire system.
The only proof anyone ever has of this shit is "well I knew this guy once who..." And believe me, I've investigated this shit. The popular one up here is that you can work under $15k a year and file in such a way that the govt gives you $15k back. I was in that bracket for several years but never found any way to actually make that happen despite all the tails.
Your situation is different than his. He drives a tractor trailer hauling a container with parts for GE. He has a dedicated route, 1 customer. They don't give 2 shits what the name of his company is. Now is he lying to me? Anything is possible, but he has zero reason to.
As far as the others, they are simply personal experiences, take them as you will. I personally saw the increased police force, so the docs story aligns with what I observed. I have no reason to doubt it.
You think I'm lying? You're free to do so, but that's not my thing.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 09, 2016, 06:54:11 PM
As painful as it must be, Hillary and Obama are being very classy about loss and transition of power.
It's sad that their supporters aren't. Especially from a party that peaches tolerance.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 08:08:28 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 10, 2016, 07:08:18 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 10, 2016, 01:38:53 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:33:40 AM
This is the one that bothers me. My family physician is also a reserve police officer for a small city not far from me. He was also on the board of the local hospital.
Back in the early 2000's they had a massive influx of Mexicans to town. In a very short period the local police force went from 5 officers/2 cars, to 10 cars/can't remember the exact number of officers. He claims it was a direct result of the higher crime rate in the Mexican area.
The hospital went under around the time of the economy taking a dump in the late 2000's. According to him, the biggest factor in the closing was the increase in unpaid care from the immigrants.
One more quicky. I have a friend who immigrated from Bosnia who owns a trucking company. He has owned the business fire several years but claims he hasn't paid a dime in taxes due to a loophole. I can't remember the exact details but something to do with having a grace period of a couple years to help immigrants get on their feet. All he has to do is change the name of the company when the period is up, and recycle.
Good for him, totally legal. He'd fit in nicely here, big time liberal atheist.
Stories like these have been proven to be... inaccurate is the polite word for it, but you wouldn't happen to have any of them facts to support them would you?
I also find them highly suspect. In this case - having owned my own business - you can't just change your business name every couple of years and maintain clients. Your name is your brand. It's how people find you. The only way this would realistically work is if that business held a strong monopoly over a pretty significant area.
And if they are true - yes, some people are shits who cheat the system. As mentioned, Trump does it and is quite proud of it, which makes voting for him because you disapprove of others doing it pretty hypocritical and also racist since we're talking exclusively about immigrants doing it. In any case those loopholes should be addressed, but isolated anecdotes are not representative of an entire system.
The only proof anyone ever has of this shit is "well I knew this guy once who..." And believe me, I've investigated this shit. The popular one up here is that you can work under $15k a year and file in such a way that the govt gives you $15k back. I was in that bracket for several years but never found any way to actually make that happen despite all the tails.
Your situation is different than his. He drives a tractor trailer hauling a container with parts for GE. He has a dedicated route, 1 customer. They don't give 2 shits what the name of his company is. Now is he lying to me? Anything is possible, but he has zero reason to.
As far as the others, they are simply personal experiences, take them as you will. I personally saw the increased police force, so the docs story aligns with what I observed. I have no reason to doubt it.
You think I'm lying? You're free to do so, but that's not my thing.
You don't have to be lying to be misrepresenting reality. You could simply be wrong and taking a story that seems to make sense without looking to make sure it's true. Perfectly normal thing, and doesn't mean that you're lying. It just means that you're not a reliable source who relies on unreliable sources.
I'm still trying to figure out why everyone here is all torn up about Trumps past insensitivities, or down right racism if you like. But no problem with Hillary's illegal activities.
I guess that's just small stuff. Nothing to see there huh?
Or how about the real issues, like policy? Is it all hate, policy be damned?
Denial incoming..........
That's silly Davin. I'm simply sharing what I was told by a couple of people I trust. I have no reason or time to contact hospital administration and interrogate them about why they closed. Sorry I brought it up now, I should have known it would be perceived as a bs story. no room for personal experiences here I suppose, unless it fits the agenda.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 08:23:17 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why everyone here is all torn up about Trumps past insensitivities, or down right racism if you like. But no problem with Hillary's illegal activities.
I guess that's just small stuff. Nothing to see there huh?
Or how about the real issues, like policy? Is it all hate, policy be damned?
Denial incoming..........
Sure let's talk about the policies, what are Trump's actual policies? Because as much as I have seen, there isn't much there at all.
Trump thinks that global warming is a hoax, and will open up more coal and green house emitting industries, while taking away clean air regulations. Now in a time where we're already pretty fucked in 50 years time no matter what we do, we could limit the damage done by fixing things now. But instead of that, Trump wants to make things even worse and make it happen sooner. That's stupid policy.
Building a wall. Stupid and expensive. Like Mexicans don't have shovel, ladder, and rope technology. A very stupid policy.
Trump wants to deport all undocumented workers. A very expensive process, that will cost way more than undocumented immigrants are currently costing tax payers. I understand that people want to force people to follow the law, but let's be fiscally responsible about it instead of wasting so much money on something that isn't that big of a problem.
Banning muslims... This is where his racism plays a part in his policies. Banning all the people of a religion is not good, it's discrimination and religious persecution based on what? We didn't do shit to the Christian religion no matter how many Christian terrorists there were. And I don't think we should have. Just like we shouldn't now.
Defeating ISIS... I suppose we'll just have to trust that he has something here and it doesn't end up bullshit like every other time he said, "I have something here, folks. Trust me." Then he comes out and offers to pay someone to bring evidence that Obama's birth certificate was faked.
Nuclear weapons, Trump thinks that if we have them, then we should use them. Well, I hope you have a good jacket because a nuclear winter will last a while.
Minimum wage... well this takes math and statistics, and based on my prior dealings with you, it's probably better for you to just let this one go.
Taxes. Trump is going to lower taxes for the wealthy, and raise it for you and the middle income families. An economy thrives with money flows, but when the wealthy get more money, then tend to save it instead of spend it and when they do spend it, it mostly gets spent in a smaller pool. This means that the more money that wealthy people have, the more stale it becomes. Now I understand that the wealthy don't want to pay taxes, and I too would be against the 90% that it was almost a century ago, but what is good for the economy is to let more people spend more money, than to let a few people horde most of the money. So when a country takes more money from the middle class, they spend less money, and the economy gets worse. This is the policy that Trump wants to enact, and it's stupid.
Guns. I know this is a subject that many people lose their ability think rationally about it. Gun laws are too lax right now. If you make it harder for criminals to get guns, it makes guns more expensive on the black market, that limits the amount of guns that a criminals can afford. But if you continue to let criminals buy guns at normal prices from legal sources, then more criminals will have more guns. I know we will never bring that down to zero, but I'd prefer moving the number down instead of what Trump wants to do and make it even easier for criminals to get low cost access to guns which will make the number go up.
National debt. He wants to get rid of the national debt in eight years. I commend him for wanting it, but with the other things he's proposing, I don't see how reducing the amount of money the government makes and increasing the amount of government spending is going to that. I mean, I know that's math, but I think it's simple enough to understand.
Abortion and women's rights in general. Tough subject, I'll talk about it if you want.
Torture and other breaking of international laws. Trump wants to break the laws. That crooked criminal.
A bunch more, but since you never brought a list, I'll just let that sit there. I'll talk about other ones if you want.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 08:28:47 PM
That's silly Davin. I'm simply sharing what I was told by a couple of people I trust. I have no reason or time to contact hospital administration and interrogate them about why they closed. Sorry I brought it up now, I should have known it would be perceived as a bs story. no room for personal experiences here I suppose, unless it fits the agenda.
That's fine that you want to share the story, good for you. I don't perceive it as BS, I perceive it as unreliable. I can see that basing your beliefs on reality is not as important to you as it is to me, and while that's fine, it would be better for you and the rest of us, if you would base your beliefs on reality rather than baseless hearsay.
Ok. You're impossible. By your logic, you could make a case that the whole world is one big conspiracy. Or that nobody is trustworthy. What if I did find the CEO of that hospital, is he lying too? Any way to prove most of what we hear everyday?
In the doc story, he was a police officer and BOD at the hospital, no agenda, we were just small talking. Add that to personally witnessing the increase in immigrants and the number of police cars parked at the station, it adds up to me. If that's foolish on my part, then I'm foolish.
As far as the business owner. If he lied to me, which I doubt, then it is what it is. If not, it's perfectly legal. Would you pay taxes if you didn't have to? Not this guy.
I won't quote your political opinion post, too long. I'm not going to argue with that. It's mostly your opinion and that's fine. Some of it I agree with you on.
Hear say has nothing to do with lying. It's more like playing a game of telephone with the real world and believing it.
Quote from: Apathy on November 11, 2016, 01:53:40 AM
Hear say has nothing to do with lying. It's more like playing a game of telephone with the real world and believing it.
Yes I understand hearsay. Me telling you guys something I was told would qualify I suppose. But me hearing it directly from the horses mouth world not.
Listen I didn't intend to make this a big debate, I was just sharing a story that didn't really require any further discussion, but I guess I understand. Anything that goes against the grain here will be met with max resistance. It goes the other way on a more right leaning forum, I get it.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 09, 2016, 05:42:14 PM
If you don't see how Trump is racist, you're either filtering out information you don't want to see with stunning ability, or you are racist. And again, I'm not saying anyone is the "string n*****s up in a tree" sort of racist, but that's not the only brand of racism in the world and as America just proved, the subtle, systemic type is absolutely rampant.
Trump's Long History of Racism (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4r2yxs/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is/?client=safari)
And remember, while the consequences of any "ism" are harmful, individual statements may seem benign or even positive. "Oh, you're Asian? You must be so good at math!" IS an extremely racist statement. Which makes all of Trumps carrying on about how much he likes and hires Jews because they're so great with money really fucking gross.
Death by a 1,000 micro-aggressions?
How about maybe our liberals stop grooming all of our non white, non male kids to be so fucking sensitive and instead teach them to not take everything everyone says so personally. I was a sensitive kid. I came home from school many times depressed. I hid from the older kids at the bus stop because they always made fun of me. They were just joking around and thought it was funny.
The advice I received was to ignore them or stand my ground. Tease them right back if I could. I learned how to do both well. As a result, no matter where I am, I am in my safe space.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 08:23:17 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why everyone here is all torn up about Trumps past insensitivities, or down right racism if you like. But no problem with Hillary's illegal activities.
I guess that's just small stuff. Nothing to see there huh?
Or how about the real issues, like policy? Is it all hate, policy be damned?
Denial incoming..........
The problem with the criminal activities claims is that as much as she's been investigated, and usually by her bitterest enemies who have no desire to go easy on her, she's been exonerated. I'm no fan of Clinton's, but if you're hearing these "she's a criminal" claims without an automatic anti-Clinton bias, they sound no end of dodgy.
And the problem with Trump goes well beyond his being "insensitive". We do have a history of actual criminal activity on his part, particularly fraud, and there's that child-rape case coming up. And the fact that he believes not paying taxes in 20 years is a point in his favor, rather than a screwing over of the middle and lower classes who pick up the slack in taxes left by the extremely wealthy.
As far as policies go, yes, there are some things I had problems with Clinton about, but I usually had the same problems (and often to a greater degree) with Trump. On the other hand, I preferred Clinton's acknowledgement of climate change and ideas about tackling it to Trump's "it's a Chinese hoax", I approved of Clinton's keeping the ACA and funding PP to Trump's vow to eliminate both things that are often the only available health care for the poor, I certainly approved Clinton's pro-LGBT stance to Trump's anti-LGBT stance. As someone who lives in CA and knows just how much we depend on undocumented workers, I was behind her promise to sort that out with a quicker, cheaper pathway to citizenship, and not breaking up immigrant families, to Trump's vow to deport 11 million people, to say nothing of his lunatic fantasy about building a wall.
And as much as Clinton's been called a war-mongerer, I vastly preferred to have her hold the nuclear codes than see them in the hands of someone who said "I love war", and "we have nukes, why not use them?".
In short, every argument I've heard against Clinton has sounded to me like "don't vote for that bad person -- vote for this worse one!"
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 05:23:25 AM
Get some sleep Mags. I'll leave you alone now.
WAIT. You're 3 hours behind me, it's early still!!
J/k nite nite ;)
(https://38.media.tumblr.com/34b51eb77cc9fc11fad9f8db4920a008/tumblr_nhb6kxLqrK1ruqqm0o1_500.gif)
OK.
I feel better, now.
We can continue... :grin:
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:33:40 AM
A couple personal observations with the immigration thing.
The company I work for does work for a few landscaping companies. One of those companies employees 20 something illegals. They are paid cash, as contracted work. This info came straight from the owner of the company.
Why don't they hire people who can do the job in a legal way? Because they can't find anyone who can work as hard and for such a small amount of cash? Because when the owner pays cash he doesn't have to pay taxes either? Because he doesn't have to provide their workers with health insurance? This is what I see when they say, "The wealth will trickle down."
This is what I would like you to explain to me since you know people who do this "illegal" transactions:
Undocumented people are unwanted in this country, but undocumented people are hired every day. Why aren't the bosses hiring US-born people who are unemployed? Why aren't the bosses hiring US born people who are on welfare because they can't find a job? --"Could it be because those "illegals", I hate that term, by the way, are offered the jobs and do take them?
Just like you, I hear stories, and what I hear is that people who have the right documents to work in this country don't want to do manual labor and for such small pay.--That makes sense, but someone has to dig a hole, move the equipment, move the material, clean up, etc. Who's willing to do it? We are. :computerwave:
So what is everyone complaining about? Do you want us? No. Do you need us? Yes. So what do you do? Dilemmas...dilemmas. Corruption, I guess it trickles down.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:33:40 AM
He straight up told me only 1 is legal, the rest cash their checks and send half of it back to Mexico to family.
Wait, I thought you said they were paid in cash. :eyebrow:
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:33:40 AM
Big deal, I don't really care.
So why mention it? :shrug:
By the way, you know Trump wants to "intercept" this money? That man is so greedy! I think this will be his downfall. :sadnod:
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:33:40 AM
This is the one that bothers me. My family physician is also a reserve police officer for a small city not far from me. He was also on the board of the local hospital.
Back in the early 2000's they had a massive influx of Mexicans to town. In a very short period the local police force went from 5 officers/2 cars, to 10 cars/can't remember the exact number of officers. He claims it was a direct result of the higher crime rate in the Mexican area.
I think this is called, racism. Show me the crime report, maybe they were US-born people committing misdemeanors who were labeled in the police report as, "illegal Mexicans." After all, they say we all look alike. ::)
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:33:40 AM
The hospital went under around the time of the economy taking a dump in the late 2000's. According to him, the biggest factor in the closing was the increase in unpaid care from the immigrants.
How easily we forget, don't we? Do you remember this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Recession
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Recession)
QuoteCauses of the Great Recession
Many factors directly and indirectly caused the Great Recession (which started in 2007 with the US subprime mortgage crisis), with experts and economists placing different weights on particular causes.
Major causes of the initial subprime mortgage crisis and following recession include: International trade imbalances and lax lending standards contributing to high levels of developed country household debt and real-estate bubbles that have since burst; U.S. government housing policies; and limited regulation of non-depository financial institutions. Once the recession began, various responses were attempted with different degrees of success. These included fiscal policies of governments; monetary policies of central banks; measures designed to help indebted consumers refinance their mortgage debt; and inconsistent approaches used by nations to bail out troubled banking industries and private bondholders, assuming private debt burdens or socializing losses.
Etc., etc., etc.
...Let's see...Nope, don't see anything about immigrants being the biggest factor in the closing of hospitals because of unpaid care for another human being in one of the wealthiest countries of the world.
This bothers people too? That the US-born children, who have undocumented parents, have access to medical care? Really? :headscratch:
Why so much hate for someone who was born in the USA, and loves this country, just like you? And this information, about the hospital closing due to unpaid bills by undocumented people...came from your family physician, who is also a reserve police officer for a small city not far from you, and he was also on the board of the local hospital? That sounds like an intelligent man, with a lot of power. This is the funny thing about being an educated person...it's a double edge sword. One can use their knowledge to help others or one can use all their knowledge to hurt them. I believe the word, "civilized and educated" people use is, "a scapegoat." That's the word. That's what we are...to you, your scapegoat.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 02:33:40 AM
One more quicky. I have a friend who immigrated from Bosnia who owns a trucking company. He has owned the business fire several years but claims he hasn't paid a dime in taxes due to a loophole. I can't remember the exact details but something to do with having a grace period of a couple years to help immigrants get on their feet. All he has to do is change the name of the company when the period is up, and recycle.
Good for him, totally legal. He'd fit in nicely here, big time liberal atheist.
I have no comment.
Wow Mags, where to start. First off, you ask why hate illegals(sorry, that's what they are). I never said I hated them. I do understand their hardships, as well as Syrians, Iraqis, Cubans, all of the problems in Africa, people all over the world. We can't just open the doors and bring everybody in.
With that said, I'm not one that complains about Mexicans taking "our" jobs. The reason they have those jobs is just like you said, we aren't gonna do it for the pay they will. Why in the world would I go out in the heat and dig holes when I can sit here on my lazy ass waiting for my crazy check. He he.
I'll say this, the Mexicans I've seen work twice as hard as many Americans.
When I said the owner paid cash, I meant no taxes deducted. I need to be more precise. People in these parts always call it cash got some reason.
Next, how in the world is what the inflow of illegals did to crime in this town racism? Should the police have let them steal? Are you saying doc is a racist for observing an increase in crime? As far as weather they were illegal or not, they usually don't have a document identifying them as illegal, but when they don't have anything saying they aren't, and don't speak English it's not hard to figure out.
Next, the closing of the hospital. This was one rural hospital, I'm not talking about any other ones, I don't have any info on those.
I personally don't have a problem with a hospital treating someone with life threatening situation btw.
I'm not following you on the scapegoat thing.
So let's recap. If Steeler shares a few personal experiences with the group, all is discarded unless he provides proof of citizenship of the accused, tax documentation, and sworn statements from former hospital staff? I'm being sarcastic if ya couldn't tell.
I did have some more tidbits from the town and crime rate, but forget it. I should've known it would essentially be labeled as BS, simply because it doesn't fit the agenda.
Sorry this is a jumbled up mess, trying to do too many things at once.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AM
I never said I hated them.
Good.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AM
With that said, I'm not one that complains about Mexicans taking "our" jobs.
Good.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AM
I'll say this, the Mexicans I've seen work twice as hard as many Americans.
Good.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AM
I personally don't have a problem with a hospital treating someone with life threatening situation btw.
Good.
You see, we agree on some things. This is good. :smilenod:
One more thing.
When someone says, "Mexicans" they are using that word to refer to people from every Latin American country. It's not fair to have a Salvadoran, like myself, commit a crime and assume he/she is a Mexican, just because he/she looks like a Mexican. Mexico is the last border all of us have to cross to get here, so it looks as if everyone who comes here is from Mexico, but that's not always the case.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AM
Wow Mags, where to start. First off, you ask why hate illegals(sorry, that's what they are).
One more thing, for you, my friend.
http://www.nohumanbeingisillegal.com/Home.html (http://www.nohumanbeingisillegal.com/Home.html)
I try not to label them all"Mexicans". I may slip and be guilty of it at times. I do know that the landscaping workers I referred to are Mexican. Apparently because Guatemalans and Mexicans do not like each other so it was code one or the other. So I'm told.
I think I'll bow out of this thread, I don't see much productivity going forward.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 09:52:57 PM
Ok. You're impossible. By your logic, you could make a case that the whole world is one big conspiracy. Or that nobody is trustworthy. What if I did find the CEO of that hospital, is he lying too? Any way to prove most of what we hear everyday?
I don't know which part in particular you're having trouble understanding, so I'll break the sentence down and ask about specific parts.
"I don't perceive it as BS[...]"
I mean that I don't think you're lying, nor do I think that the hearsay that you say you're hearing are lies. Do you understand this?
"[...]I perceive it as unreliable."
I mean that it is simply not reliable information. Any other inferences about what I think about it will be wrong. Do you understand this?
Please do ask questions about the parts that are confusing you.
Quote from: SteelerIn the doc story, he was a police officer and BOD at the hospital, no agenda, we were just small talking. Add that to personally witnessing the increase in immigrants and the number of police cars parked at the station, it adds up to me. If that's foolish on my part, then I'm foolish.
It's not a foolish thing to do to think that the story might be true. But it's foolish when you're start to make decisions off of the story when you haven't made sure that it was true. And yes, it seems to add up to you, but you can't show it with facts, just what feels good to you. Again, I understand that basing your beliefs on reality is not as important to you as it is to me, and that would be fine in itself. That however doesn't make it OK for you to perpetuate unvetted stories as if they are true, at least not unchallenged.
Quote from: SteelerAs far as the business owner. If he lied to me, which I doubt, then it is what it is. If not, it's perfectly legal. Would you pay taxes if you didn't have to? Not this guy.
Yes, I would pay taxes even if I had the ability to avoid them. I like police, schools, fire departments, roads, hospitals, courts of law, public utilities... etc. And paying my small part to help keep these useful things around, is worth it. I embrace my responsibility for the things that I use, I don't act like a spoiled entitled idiot who expects everyone else to pay for his dinner, so of course, being a responsible adult, I would pay taxes.
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 10:06:46 PM
I won't quote your political opinion post, too long. I'm not going to argue with that. It's mostly your opinion and that's fine. Some of it I agree with you on.
Tell me which parts you think are opinion, and I will back up what I say with facts. I'm not going to write out a 100+ page essay linked to peer reviewed studies and statistics, in response to your extremely low effort post. It's not reasonable to expect someone to put in more effort that you are willing to put in. But I'm willing to discuss it with you and back up the particular points you don't think I can back up with facts and research.
I did notice that you didn't present of his policies, please do offer which of his policies you agree with, with at least a brief explanation.
Edit: I a word or two.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 11, 2016, 03:24:54 AM
In short, every argument I've heard against Clinton has sounded to me like "don't vote for that bad person -- vote for this worse one!"
That is every argument I've seen. Of course they don't word it like that, but that's what it boiled down to.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AM
As far as weather they were illegal or not, they usually don't have a document identifying them as illegal, but when they don't have anything saying they aren't, and don't speak English it's not hard to figure out.
I wouldn't say the other things are racism but this right here is racial profiling. First, "they don't have a document saying they are illegal, but when they don't have anything saying they aren't... it's not hard to figure out". I would hear that same argument from a theist about correlating good things happening and the inability to prove god doesn't exist, therefore god did it. You can't prove a negative.
Next, "and they don't speak English" There are plenty of people in America who don't speak English and have right to be here. Again, I can't prove a negative so to say if they were illegal immigrants or not is not possible.
But I digress, at least you used the evidence at hand to come to a hypothesis.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 01:12:04 PM
I try not to label them all"Mexicans". I may slip and be guilty of it at times. I do know that the landscaping workers I referred to are Mexican.
Thank you. This is why I like talking with you, we come from extreme sides but when we talk, we listen to each other and we acknowledge the things we hear other people say about our people. This is important so that we can solve these problems...well, if we can't solve them, at least we can share this information with those who are stubborn and refuse to see the other side. :-\
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 01:12:04 PM
Apparently because Guatemalans and Mexicans do not like each other so it was code one or the other. So I'm told.
Yes. I'm ashamed to say it, but I also hear this a lot. It's not just Guatemalans who say bad things about Mexicans, Salvadorans do it, Ecuadorians do it, Argentinians do it, etc., etc. They each have their reasons, but the one I hear the most is that they are mistreated as they are crossing Mexico to get here. :shrug: I don't know how true this is. I was brought here as a child, so I didn't experience "crossing the border."
You know a lot of stereotypical comments and that's because you're around our people, a lot--I think this is good. I'm sure they would like to tell you that some of those comments are wrong, but there is that small problem of language that gets in the way. :-\ I also hear Latinos say that the North American bosses are sometimes a lot nicer than our own Latino bosses. Again, because of the language, they can't tell you how thankful they are for that and for the fact that you gave them a job when they needed one.
Davin, since I did ask, I'll respond to your post. I'm gonna fuck it all up since I haven't mastered proper quoting. I'll just bold my responses in your quote.
Quote from: Davin on November 10, 2016, 08:59:11 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 08:23:17 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why everyone here is all torn up about Trumps past insensitivities, or down right racism if you like. But no problem with Hillary's illegal activities.
I guess that's just small stuff. Nothing to see there huh?
Or how about the real issues, like policy? Is it all hate, policy be damned?
Denial incoming..........
Sure let's talk about the policies, what are Trump's actual policies? Because as much as I have seen, there isn't much there at all.
Trump thinks that global warming is a hoax, and will open up more coal and green house emitting industries, while taking away clean air regulations. Now in a time where we're already pretty fucked in 50 years time no matter what we do, we could limit the damage done by fixing things now. But instead of that, Trump wants to make things even worse and make it happen sooner. That's stupid policy.
I think that a lot of people believe global warming is very debatable. Is it short term? Is it a natural event? Have we even been monitoring global climate long enough to know? Beats me, but sounds logical to me that we could be causing climate change. Fact? Both sides would probably claim it as fact, depending on your source.
Building a wall. Stupid and expensive. Like Mexicans don't have shovel, ladder, and rope technology. A very stupid policy.
You say it's stupid. That's opinion. Expensive, you betcha.
Beatable, yup. Stupid again, opinion. Will it ever happen? I highly doubt it, but it's big. MERCA lol
Trump wants to deport all undocumented workers. A very expensive process, that will cost way more than undocumented immigrants are currently costing tax payers. I understand that people want to force people to follow the law, but let's be fiscally responsible about it instead of wasting so much money on something that isn't that big of a problem.
How do you know for a fact how much it will cost to deport everybody? Something that isn't that big of a problem. To who? You? Opinion.
And I'm not disagreeing with you on it.
Banning muslims... This is where his racism plays a part in his policies. Banning all the people of a religion is not good, it's discrimination and religious persecution based on what? We didn't do shit to the Christian religion no matter how many Christian terrorists there were. And I don't think we should have. Just like we shouldn't now.
Banning them all permanently I agree, bad policy. I thought he said it would be temporary until they fixed the background checks.
Defeating ISIS... I suppose we'll just have to trust that he has something here and it doesn't end up bullshit like every other time he said, "I have something here, folks. Trust me." Then he comes out and offers to pay someone to bring evidence that Obama's birth certificate was faked.
Agree, we will have to wait that one out.
Nuclear weapons, Trump thinks that if we have them, then we should use them. Well, I hope you have a good jacket because a nuclear winter will last a while.
I think he's full of hot air, and made a lot of comments never believing he would really be elected.
Minimum wage... well this takes math and statistics, and based on my prior dealings with you, it's probably better for you to just let this one go.
What's that supposed to mean?
Taxes. Trump is going to lower taxes for the wealthy, and raise it for you and the middle income families. An economy thrives with money flows, but when the wealthy get more money, then tend to save it instead of spend it and when they do spend it, it mostly gets spent in a smaller pool. This means that the more money that wealthy people have, the more stale it becomes. Now I understand that the wealthy don't want to pay taxes, and I too would be against the 90% that it was almost a century ago, but what is good for the economy is to let more people spend more money, than to let a few people horde most of the money. So when a country takes more money from the middle class, they spend less money, and the economy gets worse. This is the policy that Trump wants to enact, and it's stupid.
He is going to lower taxes for the rich and raise them for everybody else? Did he say that?
Hrs going to raise taxes for myself and the middle class? I don't recall revealing my income to you, but it looks like you've lumped me with the poor.
Guns. I know this is a subject that many people lose their ability think rationally about it. Gun laws are too lax right now. If you make it harder for criminals to get guns, it makes guns more expensive on the black market, that limits the amount of guns that a criminals can afford. But if you continue to let criminals buy guns at normal prices from legal sources, then more criminals will have more guns. I know we will never bring that down to zero, but I'd prefer moving the number down instead of what Trump wants to do and make it even easier for criminals to get low cost access to guns which will make the number go up.
Gun laws are too lax right now. Opinion.
A criminal buying a gun from a legal source? That's a crime.
National debt. He wants to get rid of the national debt in eight years. I commend him for wanting it, but with the other things he's proposing, I don't see how reducing the amount of money the government makes and increasing the amount of government spending is going to that. I mean, I know that's math, but I think it's simple enough to understand.
Agree
Abortion and women's rights in general. Tough subject, I'll talk about it if you want.
Agree it's tough. But I have a feeling we would agree.
Torture and other breaking of international laws. Trump wants to break the laws. That crooked criminal.
Then him and Hillary have something in common.
A bunch more, but since you never brought a list, I'll just let that sit there. I'll talk about other ones if you want.
I didn't expect you to write an article, and I didn't intend to start a debate. I just like hearing others thoughts, that doesn't mean I need to destroy them. Everyone has opinions.
Told ya I'd Fuck that up. Meant to bold my comments, that's Elkhart I get for rushing. I'll try to fix it in a bit if I get a break
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 08:12:41 PM
Told ya I'd Fuck that up. Meant to bold my comments, that's Elkhart I get for rushing. I'll try to fix it in a bit if I get a break
:secrets1: I think a moderator can help you fix them so that
you don't have to. This has happened to me before.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 08:11:04 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 10, 2016, 08:59:11 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 10, 2016, 08:23:17 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why everyone here is all torn up about Trumps past insensitivities, or down right racism if you like. But no problem with Hillary's illegal activities.
I guess that's just small stuff. Nothing to see there huh?
Or how about the real issues, like policy? Is it all hate, policy be damned?
Denial incoming..........
Sure let's talk about the policies, what are Trump's actual policies? Because as much as I have seen, there isn't much there at all.
Trump thinks that global warming is a hoax, and will open up more coal and green house emitting industries, while taking away clean air regulations. Now in a time where we're already pretty fucked in 50 years time no matter what we do, we could limit the damage done by fixing things now. But instead of that, Trump wants to make things even worse and make it happen sooner. That's stupid policy.
I think that a lot of people believe global warming is very debatable. Is it short term? Is it a natural event? Have we even been monitoring global climate long enough to know? Beats me, but sounds logical to me that we could be causing climate change. Fact? Both sides would probably claim it as fact, depending on your source.
It's not debatable. It's as much as a fact as evolution and gravity. Both sides might claim their claims are facts, but only science is able to back it up with mountains of reliable evidence. We haven't been tracking global temperature for that long, but we have many different methods to determine the history of temperature from different fields of science that confirm and validate each other. It's not a debate any more, and denying global warming as an adult is just as bad as if they went around believing in Santa Claus.
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
Building a wall. Stupid and expensive. Like Mexicans don't have shovel, ladder, and rope technology. A very stupid policy.
You say it's stupid. That's opinion. Expensive, you betcha.
Beatable, yup. Stupid again, opinion. Will it ever happen? I highly doubt it, but it's big. MERCA lol
I don't see how anyone wouldn't think it's a stupid idea. Opinion, sure, as much as it is a conclusion from the facts.
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
Trump wants to deport all undocumented workers. A very expensive process, that will cost way more than undocumented immigrants are currently costing tax payers. I understand that people want to force people to follow the law, but let's be fiscally responsible about it instead of wasting so much money on something that isn't that big of a problem.
How do you know for a fact how much it will cost to deport everybody?
11 million undocumented people. How many people do you think will need to be hired to track them down? How many people do you think you will need to hire to go an collect them? To transport them? I don't know exactly how much it will, no one does, but the estimates (http://www.businessinsider.com/cost-deporting-undocumented-immigrants-study-2016-5) are not good. $400-600 billion dollars? While they cost the federal government net value about $10 billion (http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html) So in 40 to 60years, we might break even on the estimated costs of deporting them.
Quote from: SteelerSomething that isn't that big of a problem. To who? You? Opinion.
Read the study above. Not opinion. Otherwise, you show me with fact that it's a big problem.
Quote from: SteelerAnd I'm not disagreeing with you on it.
Well, you could at least look at the available information.
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
Banning muslims... This is where his racism plays a part in his policies. Banning all the people of a religion is not good, it's discrimination and religious persecution based on what? We didn't do shit to the Christian religion no matter how many Christian terrorists there were. And I don't think we should have. Just like we shouldn't now.
Banning them all permanently I agree, bad policy. I thought he said it would be temporary until they fixed the background checks.
Fix them to what accuracy? What is the accuracy that they are at now, what level of accuracy would you find acceptable?
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
Defeating ISIS... I suppose we'll just have to trust that he has something here and it doesn't end up bullshit like every other time he said, "I have something here, folks. Trust me." Then he comes out and offers to pay someone to bring evidence that Obama's birth certificate was faked.
Agree, we will have to wait that one out.
I think that the generals will take care of it, I trust them more with military theory than presidents.
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
Nuclear weapons, Trump thinks that if we have them, then we should use them. Well, I hope you have a good jacket because a nuclear winter will last a while.
I think he's full of hot air, and made a lot of comments never believing he would really be elected.
You think he's full of hot air? Which parts? Is it one of those bible things where the parts you disagree with are "hot air" and the parts you agree with are not?
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: DavinMinimum wage... well this takes math and statistics, and based on my prior dealings with you, it's probably better for you to just let this one go.
What's that supposed to mean?
When I tried to explain how you misrepresented the statistics about unarmed black people getting shot by police, you didn't take to it and kept on being wrong about it. If you're not going to be serious about this, then I'm not going to do all the work required. To discuss one of the more technical and complicated topics.
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
Taxes. Trump is going to lower taxes for the wealthy, and raise it for you and the middle income families. An economy thrives with money flows, but when the wealthy get more money, then tend to save it instead of spend it and when they do spend it, it mostly gets spent in a smaller pool. This means that the more money that wealthy people have, the more stale it becomes. Now I understand that the wealthy don't want to pay taxes, and I too would be against the 90% that it was almost a century ago, but what is good for the economy is to let more people spend more money, than to let a few people horde most of the money. So when a country takes more money from the middle class, they spend less money, and the economy gets worse. This is the policy that Trump wants to enact, and it's stupid.
He is going to lower taxes for the rich and raise them for everybody else? Did he say that?
Not in those words of course. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/analysis-donald-trumps-tax-plan/full
Quote from: SteelerHrs going to raise taxes for myself and the middle class? I don't recall revealing my income to you, but it looks like you've lumped me with the poor.
It's been the trend of Republican tax policy changes over the last 30 years, and doesn't look like Trump is varying from that... tradition.
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
Guns. I know this is a subject that many people lose their ability think rationally about it. Gun laws are too lax right now. If you make it harder for criminals to get guns, it makes guns more expensive on the black market, that limits the amount of guns that a criminals can afford. But if you continue to let criminals buy guns at normal prices from legal sources, then more criminals will have more guns. I know we will never bring that down to zero, but I'd prefer moving the number down instead of what Trump wants to do and make it even easier for criminals to get low cost access to guns which will make the number go up.
Gun laws are too lax right now. Opinion.
No, it's not an opinion. They are. Here in Arizona, a criminal can buy a gun without a background check for the normal price, no questions asked. Is that not too lax? Is that an opinion? Maybe you they're not too lax until people are handing criminals guns for free.
Quote from: SteelerA criminal buying a gun from a legal source? That's a crime.
Yes, it is illegal. Too bad Trump and other gun rights people don't want to prevent it. They'd rather just trust criminals won't go and buy a gun because it's illegal and we all know that criminals don't do things that are illegal.
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
National debt. He wants to get rid of the national debt in eight years. I commend him for wanting it, but with the other things he's proposing, I don't see how reducing the amount of money the government makes and increasing the amount of government spending is going to that. I mean, I know that's math, but I think it's simple enough to understand.
Agree
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
Abortion and women's rights in general. Tough subject, I'll talk about it if you want.
Agree it's tough. But I have a feeling we would agree.
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
Torture and other breaking of international laws. Trump wants to break the laws. That crooked criminal.
Then him and Hillary have something in common.
Except that Hillary had been exonerated time and time again, making her, technically, legally, and according to our constitution, not a criminal. Unless you want to go against the constitution and start the whole "guilty until proven innocent" stuff that the founding fathers were against? Plus, Hillary never boasted that she would break laws as a matter of her political policies. So not much in common with Hillary.
Quote from: Steeler
Quote from: Davin
A bunch more, but since you never brought a list, I'll just let that sit there. I'll talk about other ones if you want.
I didn't expect you to write an article, and I didn't intend to start a debate. I just like hearing others thoughts, that doesn't mean I need to destroy them. Everyone has opinions.
Not a problem, you wanted to talk about the policies, so I did.
And you back up your "facts" with more opinion and speculation. That's fine, like I said, I don't care to get into a serious in depth discussion about every detail.
These things could easily be busted up into their own threads, quick world be cool to hear everybody else's views add well.
Have a good day.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 09:21:36 PM
And you back up your "facts" with more opinion and speculation. That's fine, like I said, I don't care to get into a serious in depth discussion about every detail.
Did you not see the links to the available data? You're free to ignore the data all you want, but calling it "opinion" is just silly.
Quote from: SteelerThese things could easily be busted up into their own threads, quick world be cool to hear everybody else's views add well.
Have a good day.
Yes, they could. It would be great if you actually took the effort to read the available data instead of this broad, "just your opinions, man," stuff. I get it, you don't base your beliefs in reality, but I do. Our "opinions" are not equal.
I accept that you concede. Have fun.
One more thing. You asked about whether I discredit dine bible passages as hot air and accept others. I believe the bible is horse poopy, I am an atheist after all.
No concession here.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AMFirst off, you ask why hate illegals(sorry, that's what they are).
Calling people "illegals" dehumanizes them. A person who is in the US without proper documents is not a criminal. The civil law procedure that leads to deportation of an undocumented resident of the United States is not a criminal prosecution. The fact is that there undoubtedly are undocumented people serving in the US military (https://nllsa.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/illegal-immigration-and-the-u-s-military-the-challenge-of-reconciliation/) right now. You may not be ignorant and prejudiced, but continuing to use the term bespeaks ignorance and prejudice. It's a slur, plain and simple (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants).
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 09:21:36 PM
And you back up your "facts" with more opinion and speculation. That's fine, like I said, I don't care to get into a serious in depth discussion about every detail.
These things could easily be busted up into their own threads, quick world be cool to hear everybody else's views add well.
Have a good day.
The best way to argue with Davin is not to argue with Davin. I gave up years ago. ;D
Quote from: Recusant on November 11, 2016, 10:21:15 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AMFirst off, you ask why hate illegals(sorry, that's what they are).
Calling people "illegals" dehumanizes them. A person who is in the US without proper documents is not a criminal. The civil law procedure that leads to deportation of an undocumented resident of the United States is not a criminal prosecution. The fact is that there undoubtedly are undocumented people serving in the US military (https://nllsa.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/illegal-immigration-and-the-u-s-military-the-challenge-of-reconciliation/) right now. You may not be ignorant and prejudiced, but continuing to use the term bespeaks ignorance and prejudice. It's a slur, plain and simple (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants).
:thumbsup:
Nice.
Quote from: Recusant on November 11, 2016, 10:21:15 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AMFirst off, you ask why hate illegals(sorry, that's what they are).
Calling people "illegals" dehumanizes them. A person who is in the US without proper documents is not a criminal. The civil law procedure that leads to deportation of an undocumented resident of the United States is not a criminal prosecution. The fact is that there undoubtedly are undocumented people serving in the US military (https://nllsa.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/illegal-immigration-and-the-u-s-military-the-challenge-of-reconciliation/) right now. You may not be ignorant and prejudiced, but continuing to use the term bespeaks ignorance and prejudice. It's a slur, plain and simple (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants).
Well well, see, ya learn something new every day. I'll read up on that. Thanks Recusant. And you didn't even have to sound condescending. Lol
When I use that term, it really isn't meant to dehumanize them. Just part of the local speak. I knew one once, Hector. Hell of a nice guy. Fired of stomach cancer several years ago. That's another story though.
Quote from: Tank on November 11, 2016, 10:23:03 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 09:21:36 PM
And you back up your "facts" with more opinion and speculation. That's fine, like I said, I don't care to get into a serious in depth discussion about every detail.
These things could easily be busted up into their own threads, quick world be cool to hear everybody else's views add well.
Have a good day.
The best way to argue with Davin is not to argue with Davin. I gave up years ago. ;D
And you know that I knew that already! :o ;D
Not trying to start another deep discussion but I did find this on a quick Google search.
http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal (http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal)
Quote from: Steeler on November 12, 2016, 12:22:31 AM
Not trying to start another deep discussion but I did find this on a quick Google search.
http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal (http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal)
I found this, there, is this what you want us to read?
QuotePresident-Elect Donald Trump's Stance on Immigration
President-elect Donald J. Trump's immigration plan is based on three core principles: that the U.S. must build a wall across the southern border, that current immigration laws must be fully enforced, and that the interests of American citizens must be put first. In crafting his plan, Trump sought advice from true immigration reformer Senator Jeff Sessions, Chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Immigration and the National Interest.
FAIR disclaimer: Since securing the GOP nomination in late July, Trump has made a series of remarks that suggest he is open to changing his original positions on several immigration issues, including amnesty. However, his rhetoric has been extremely contradictory, raising serious questions about what he would actually do if elected.
...
"...and that the interests of American citizens must be put first..."
I hope Trump knows that there's a lot of Latino looking people in that group.
:grin:
Quote from: Steeler on November 12, 2016, 12:22:31 AM
Not trying to start another deep discussion but I did find this on a quick Google search.
http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal (http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal)
I think you meant to link to this page (http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-alien-the-proper-terminology). It's striking that your "quick Google" searches on this topic bring up pages from organizations that have rather dubious backgrounds. I don't think this is something you're doing on purpose, rather to me it's an indication that those who are attempting to drive the narrative in a negative way have managed to get their approach into the discussion, and many don't really question that approach.
I don't support open borders, but neither do I support the xenophobia (and unthinking reactionary rejection of those who have come to the US without following the proper channels) that Trump cynically popularized. It is no coincidence that he is supported by openly racist groups. If you can read the article that I linked and still believe it's fine to use that term because an organization like FAIR says so, then it's on you.
Ahhh! My linky no worky! Let me try this one. Everything I'm finding is that it is a crime to enter the US by evading immigration officials.
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter (http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter)
I posted that without reading your post Recusant. No, I didn't pay any attention to who FAIR was. I did have a page full of sites stating the same thing, that it is a misdemeanor first offense, felony for second, but I will read further..
Ok I'm understanding better. I see there is a legal difference between over staying a visa vs crossing without one. So it would depend on how you got here if I'm understanding.
Quote from: Steeler on November 12, 2016, 01:43:37 AM
Ahhh! My linky no worky! Let me try this one. Everything I'm finding is that it is a crime to enter the US by evading immigration officials.
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter (http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter)
Yes, and there's the basic concept of "innocent until proven guilty." Have you bothered to read the article I linked?
Quote from: Steeler on November 12, 2016, 01:43:37 AM
Ahhh! My linky no worky! Let me try this one. Everything I'm finding is that it is a crime to enter the US by evading immigration officials.
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter (http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter)
I found this, there:
4 States Pass Recreational Marijuana Laws(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fplayer.hu%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2F4535272-dfsw.gif&hash=863bc2c1f0674e045850acbebb2d0b011dc7fcd1)
Steeler, my man!
:grin:
Quote from: Recusant on November 12, 2016, 01:48:21 AM
Quote from: Steeler on November 12, 2016, 01:43:37 AM
Ahhh! My linky no worky! Let me try this one. Everything I'm finding is that it is a crime to enter the US by evading immigration officials.
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter (http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter)
Yes, and there's the basic concept of "innocent until proven guilty." Have you bothered to read the article I linked?
Easy there man, I'm not as fast as you guys. Plus I was driving home from work, I know, I know. Don't text and drive.
I edited my last post after reading you links.
Quote from: Magdalena on November 12, 2016, 01:52:47 AM
Quote from: Steeler on November 12, 2016, 01:43:37 AM
Ahhh! My linky no worky! Let me try this one. Everything I'm finding is that it is a crime to enter the US by evading immigration officials.
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter (http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter)
I found this, there:
4 States Pass Recreational Marijuana Laws
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fplayer.hu%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2F4535272-dfsw.gif&hash=863bc2c1f0674e045850acbebb2d0b011dc7fcd1)
Steeler, my man!
:grin:
I gave it up years ago Mags. It makes me feel all paranoid for some reason lol.
Quote from: Steeler on November 12, 2016, 01:57:50 AM
Easy there man, I'm not as fast as you guys. Plus I was driving home from work, I know, I know. Don't text and drive.
I edited my last post after reading you links.
It really is dangerous to text and drive. If nothing else, think of your family, and how you being in an accident would affect them.
I understand you will probably continue to use the term as "local speak" but if you read the article (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants), maybe you'll think twice about using it otherwise. It is not a neutral term, no matter that FAIR and others promote its use.
Fair enough Recusant. Thank you sir.
Quote from: Steeler on November 12, 2016, 01:59:13 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 12, 2016, 01:52:47 AM
Quote from: Steeler on November 12, 2016, 01:43:37 AM
Ahhh! My linky no worky! Let me try this one. Everything I'm finding is that it is a crime to enter the US by evading immigration officials.
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter (http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter)
I found this, there:
4 States Pass Recreational Marijuana Laws
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fplayer.hu%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2F4535272-dfsw.gif&hash=863bc2c1f0674e045850acbebb2d0b011dc7fcd1)
Steeler, my man!
:grin:
I gave it up years ago Mags. It makes me feel all paranoid for some reason lol.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3mU1hK2.gif&hash=52c9674cda4d528f19d34dcba02f0d31993a1fe3)
I was telling you!!! Legal weed at my place starting mid Dec!!
But still none in Michigan... sigh
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 12, 2016, 03:00:13 AM
I was telling you!!! Legal weed at my place starting mid Dec!!
:smokin cool: :cheerful dance 2: :smokin cool:
:hug:
You can still get fired for smoking, tho. Not worth it.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 12, 2016, 04:58:23 AM
You can still get fired for smoking, tho. Not worth it.
I did not know that. :eyebrow:
Thank you for letting me know.
No, not worth it.
Unless your company doesn't drug test for some reason even though you handle controlled opioids daily.
I wouldn't smoke weed anyways. Or do any other drug for that matter. I just think it's shit that people will get fucked up on these things AND get sent to jail. If you get fucked up, that should be your lesson there; you don't need to be sent to prison as well.
Quote from: Magdalena on November 12, 2016, 05:05:21 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 12, 2016, 04:58:23 AM
You can still get fired for smoking, tho. Not worth it.
I did not know that. :eyebrow:
Thank you for letting me know.
No, not worth it.
My employer drug tests, so even if it were legal in TX, if I tested positive I could get sacked.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 12, 2016, 06:33:05 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 12, 2016, 05:05:21 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 12, 2016, 04:58:23 AM
You can still get fired for smoking, tho. Not worth it.
I did not know that. :eyebrow:
Thank you for letting me know.
No, not worth it.
My employer drug tests, so even if it were legal in TX, if I tested positive I could get sacked.
I think that's crap. If you're not under the influence, what's the big deal.
Quote from: Recusant on November 11, 2016, 10:21:15 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AMFirst off, you ask why hate illegals(sorry, that's what they are).
Calling people "illegals" dehumanizes them. A person who is in the US without proper documents is not a criminal. The civil law procedure that leads to deportation of an undocumented resident of the United States is not a criminal prosecution. The fact is that there undoubtedly are undocumented people serving in the US military (https://nllsa.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/illegal-immigration-and-the-u-s-military-the-challenge-of-reconciliation/) right now. You may not be ignorant and prejudiced, but continuing to use the term bespeaks ignorance and prejudice. It's a slur, plain and simple (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants).
How is it possible that undocumented people could serve in the US military? Does the US have a foreign legion, like the French?
Quote from: Tom62 on November 13, 2016, 06:39:48 PM
Quote from: Recusant on November 11, 2016, 10:21:15 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 05:37:27 AMFirst off, you ask why hate illegals(sorry, that's what they are).
Calling people "illegals" dehumanizes them. A person who is in the US without proper documents is not a criminal. The civil law procedure that leads to deportation of an undocumented resident of the United States is not a criminal prosecution. The fact is that there undoubtedly are undocumented people serving in the US military (https://nllsa.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/illegal-immigration-and-the-u-s-military-the-challenge-of-reconciliation/) right now. You may not be ignorant and prejudiced, but continuing to use the term bespeaks ignorance and prejudice. It's a slur, plain and simple (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants).
How is it possible that undocumented people could serve in the US military? Does the US have a foreign legion, like the French?
Many processes in America are done by people. Even the recruitment process in the military has a human element. They make mistakes.
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 09:35:48 PM
One more thing. You asked about whether I discredit dine bible passages as hot air and accept others. I believe the bible is horse poopy, I am an atheist after all.
No, I didn't. Look again at what I asked.
Quote from: SteelerNo concession here.
Oh? You didn't respond to anything I said in the conversation, which is conceding by definition.
I also feel like I should specify what I mean by the opinion thing because it would be an easy thing to take that the wrong way. Of course, by definition, everything a person says is an opinion, what I object to is the "just" modifier. And my opinion these matters being better has little to do with me, it has to do with me basing my opinion on facts, statistics, and data, while you base your opinion, as far we can see, on hearsay and the first google link you find that supports your preconceived ideas.
I have two questions I'd to know the answer to:
Which do you think is the better opinion, one based on people just saying things or one based on reliable evidence?
And if you answer that the way I think a rational person should, if you find the latter to be better, why don't you base your own opinions on reliable evidence?
Edit: I a word.
Quote from: Tank on November 11, 2016, 10:23:03 PM
Quote from: Steeler on November 11, 2016, 09:21:36 PM
And you back up your "facts" with more opinion and speculation. That's fine, like I said, I don't care to get into a serious in depth discussion about every detail.
These things could easily be busted up into their own threads, quick world be cool to hear everybody else's views add well.
Have a good day.
The best way to argue with Davin is not to argue with Davin. I gave up years ago. ;D
The best way to argue with me, is to not misrepresent me and to engage honestly. I do agree that you never learned that and gave up on it.