Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 08:05:29 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 06, 2011, 01:33:07 PM
I think it's unfair to conclude that 'us humans created God out of ignorance and need'.
Let's say that religion has been around for over 6,000 years. There are well over 6 billion people on the planet today.
With all this time and all these people, no-one has found any evidence or proof of any of the gods.
Some of the main theistic "proofs" implore the god of the gaps.
e.g. Cosmological Argument, Fine tuning argument, complexity argument.
God 100% completely comes from ignorance. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
Not too insult you, but I think you are very ignorant.
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 08:33:04 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 08:05:29 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 06, 2011, 01:33:07 PM
I think it's unfair to conclude that 'us humans created God out of ignorance and need'.
Let's say that religion has been around for over 6,000 years. There are well over 6 billion people on the planet today.
With all this time and all these people, no-one has found any evidence or proof of any of the gods.
Some of the main theistic "proofs" implore the god of the gaps.
e.g. Cosmological Argument, Fine tuning argument, complexity argument.
God 100% completely comes from ignorance. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
Not too insult you, but I think you are very ignorant.
Oh, I agree. All of us are ignorant when it comes to god. We have no knowledge what so ever about this theoretical entity.
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 08:33:04 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 08:05:29 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 06, 2011, 01:33:07 PM
I think it's unfair to conclude that 'us humans created God out of ignorance and need'.
Let's say that religion has been around for over 6,000 years. There are well over 6 billion people on the planet today.
With all this time and all these people, no-one has found any evidence or proof of any of the gods.
Some of the main theistic "proofs" implore the god of the gaps.
e.g. Cosmological Argument, Fine tuning argument, complexity argument.
God 100% completely comes from ignorance. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
Not too insult you, but I think you are very ignorant.
Oh, I agree. All of us are ignorant when it comes to god. We have no knowledge what so ever about this theoretical entity.
That's not what I meant.
Consider this:
A theist forum discussing the theory of evolution and mocking scientists for their opinion that our ancestors were monkeys.
While not even considering opening a book written by one of these scientists to understand on what this theory stands.
Instead of that, you read books about evolution,
whose author's reject evolution. Convinced that you are right, you continue mocking.
I call that ignorance.
Quote from: Tank on September 06, 2011, 09:24:18 PM
ISoK I have split off your derail into its own thread. Please do not attempt to distupt serious threads with derails.
Split thread can be found here http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8221.0
My apologies, I haven't read the whole thread, but had a reponse for Stevil's post.
(You can delete the other thread)
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
That's not what I meant.
Consider this:
A theist forum discussing the theory of evolution and mocking scientists for their opinion that our ancestors were monkeys.
While not even considering opening a book written by one of these scientists to understand on what this theory stands.
Instead of that, you read books about evolution, whose author's reject evolution.
Convinced that you are right, you continue mocking.
I call that ignorance.
Ignorance in the dictionary means "a lack of knowledge or information" so you could say that the god was formed out of ignorance, as it was created by humanity trying to gain an understanding of the world around them with little understanding of how the world actually worked.
I would say the example you gave is an example of delusion and ignorance.
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:32:40 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 06, 2011, 09:24:18 PM
ISoK I have split off your derail into its own thread. Please do not attempt to distupt serious threads with derails.
Split thread can be found here http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8221.0
My apologies, I haven't read the whole thread, but had a reponse for Stevil's post.
(You can delete the other thread)
No problem with the discussion.
Quote from: Crow on September 06, 2011, 09:33:13 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
That's not what I meant.
Consider this:
A theist forum discussing the theory of evolution and mocking scientists for their opinion that our ancestors were monkeys.
While not even considering opening a book written by one of these scientists to understand on what this theory stands.
Instead of that, you read books about evolution, whose author's reject evolution.
Convinced that you are right, you continue mocking.
I call that ignorance.
Ignorance in the dictionary means "a lack of knowledge or information" so you could say that the god was formed out of ignorance, as it was created by humanity trying to gain an understanding of the world around them with little understanding of how the world actually worked.
I would say the example you gave is an example of delusion and ignorance.
The quest for God was never fueled by the question of
How?, but always by
Why?, nothing has changed so far.
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
whose author's reject evolution.
Are you refering to Darwin..?
If you are, then the obvious question is: "So effing what?"
He was right, so what does it matter if he rejected it at some point? He paved a way for an understanding of how life got to the point it is at now and some semblance of understanding of where it is going. He was the guy who let the genie out of the bottle, yet the resulting voodoo has been demonstrated beyond his original work.
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
The quest for God was never fueled by the question of How?, but always by Why?, nothing has changed so far.
I stand corrected.
[EDIT] Actually I don't. I agree that God came from a why question rather than a how question so my original sentence still stands.
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
The quest for God was never fueled by the question of How?, but always by Why?, nothing has changed so far.
Why would an all perfect all knowing god create existence?
It makes no sense. This god knows the outcome already, has nothing to learn, nothing to gain. This god is perfect already, no requirements, no deficiencies.
Creation of existence would be superfluous to requirements. There would be no point.
It would be like us reading a single sentence over and over, every minute of our waking lives until we die. We might get something out of it the first couple of reads, but on the 1 millionth read, we are learning nothing, no entertainment, no surprises, just nothing but unrelenting boredom. It would be much worse for an all knowing, all perfect god.
This god has no need for existence.
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
Consider this:
A theist forum discussing the theory of evolution and mocking scientists for their opinion that our ancestors were monkeys.
While not even considering opening a book written by one of these scientists to understand on what this theory stands.
Instead of that, you read books about evolution, whose author's reject evolution.
Convinced that you are right, you continue mocking.
I call that ignorance.
Scientific books offer testable theories, they explain the assumptions and describe the theory they also go into detail with regards to the tests and experiments and math used to substantiate the theory.
Religious scripture offers a bunch of anecdotal stories, stories that the author (generally Anon) was not alive when the alleged event occurred. Stories that often make no sense and require interpretation.
There is a big difference with regards to the usefulness of reading scientific publications as opposed to reading religious scripture.
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 10:13:45 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
The quest for God was never fueled by the question of How?, but always by Why?, nothing has changed so far.
Why would an all perfect all knowing god create existence?
It makes no sense. This god knows the outcome already, has nothing to learn, nothing to gain. This god is perfect already, no requirements, no deficiencies.
Creation of existence would be superfluous to requirements. There would be no point.
It would be like us reading a single sentence over and over, every minute of our waking lives until we die. We might get something out of it the first couple of reads, but on the 1 millionth read, we are learning nothing, no entertainment, no surprises, just nothing but unrelenting boredom. It would be much worse for an all knowing, all perfect god.
This god has no need for existence.
For the sheer pleasure of your own existence, you exist.
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 10:18:14 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
Consider this:
A theist forum discussing the theory of evolution and mocking scientists for their opinion that our ancestors were monkeys.
While not even considering opening a book written by one of these scientists to understand on what this theory stands.
Instead of that, you read books about evolution, whose author's reject evolution.
Convinced that you are right, you continue mocking.
I call that ignorance.
Scientific books offer testable theories, they explain the assumptions and describe the theory they also go into detail with regards to the tests and experiments and math used to substantiate the theory.
Religious scripture offers a bunch of anecdotal stories, stories that the author (generally Anon) was not alive when the alleged event occurred. Stories that often make no sense and require interpretation.
There is a big difference with regards to the usefulness of reading scientific publications as opposed to reading religious scripture.
I was trying to show you that man has empathy and maybe you should search for it too, by trying to place yourself in the thought process of other's.
You refuse to read anything about religion, but complain at the same time that it's ridiculous.
'Atheists are just satan worshippers, they are secretly helping satan and promote the theory of evolution; how can it be true in the first place?
why are there still monkey?!'
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 10:23:01 PM
I was trying to show you that man has empathy and maybe you should search for it too, by trying to place yourself in the thought process of other's.
You refuse to read anything about religion, but complain at the same time that it's ridiculous.
'Atheists are just satan worshippers, they are secretly helping satan and promote the theory of evolution; how can it be true in the first place?
why are there still monkey?!'
I actually understand and empathize with this point,
iSok. It is very true that too often, people on opposing sides of argument do not take the time to adequately educate themselves on the "other" side.
I become equally frustrated at people who argue from ignorance, no matter what their position on subjects. I've been guilty of it in the past myself, but have tried very hard to learn from that and stop myself doing it again.
Atheists, or people who are simply non-theists who ridicule without understanding what it is they are railing against do not impress me. Neither do they help themselves very much. Same holds true for theists who ignorantly argue about atheists without knowing what an atheist is (I was once one of them, and very ignorant, sadly).
Anyway, good point.
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 10:18:47 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 10:13:45 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
The quest for God was never fueled by the question of How?, but always by Why?, nothing has changed so far.
Why would an all perfect all knowing god create existence?
It makes no sense. This god knows the outcome already, has nothing to learn, nothing to gain. This god is perfect already, no requirements, no deficiencies.
Creation of existence would be superfluous to requirements. There would be no point.
It would be like us reading a single sentence over and over, every minute of our waking lives until we die. We might get something out of it the first couple of reads, but on the 1 millionth read, we are learning nothing, no entertainment, no surprises, just nothing but unrelenting boredom. It would be much worse for an all knowing, all perfect god.
This god has no need for existence.
For the sheer pleasure of your own existence, you exist.
If the quest is Why, then this answer you have offered is not very enlightening.
God takes pleasure in my existence? Was god lacking that pleasure before I existed? I feel so special!
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 10:23:01 PM
You refuse to read anything about religion, but complain at the same time that it's ridiculous.
I complain that there is no evidence, I complain that the book of "truths", needs to be interpreted.
Do I need to read the book to know these to be true? Does the book offer evidence? Do many Theist's think their book is not open slather for interpretation?
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 10:42:37 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 10:18:47 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 10:13:45 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
The quest for God was never fueled by the question of How?, but always by Why?, nothing has changed so far.
Why would an all perfect all knowing god create existence?
It makes no sense. This god knows the outcome already, has nothing to learn, nothing to gain. This god is perfect already, no requirements, no deficiencies.
Creation of existence would be superfluous to requirements. There would be no point.
It would be like us reading a single sentence over and over, every minute of our waking lives until we die. We might get something out of it the first couple of reads, but on the 1 millionth read, we are learning nothing, no entertainment, no surprises, just nothing but unrelenting boredom. It would be much worse for an all knowing, all perfect god.
This god has no need for existence.
For the sheer pleasure of your own existence, you exist.
If the quest is Why, then this answer you have offered is not very enlightening.
God takes pleasure in my existence? Was god lacking that pleasure before I existed? I feel so special!
Let's quit the sarcasm.
God wouldn't be God without creating life.
You exist for your own pleasure in this life, the highest form of pleasure is to come near the Source of your existence, every religion
teaches that and it seems that it's true, since religious people seem to live longer and are more happy according to statistics.
Religion teaches that man will return to God, so this life is a preparation for that meeting.
I shall try to explain it in the terms of the Big Bang:
- God is the Center, in the beginning of creation man has been sent away as vicegerent of God with the rest of creation (rapid expansion of the universe).
- The climax of this expansion will be the End as mentioned by religions, man will no longer be conscious of the Center.
- Every thing shall return to God, we will all be in the same place, some of us cannot or have not accepted that Center (Big Crunch).
Then all veils will be lifted and we will all know what the purpose of all of this was and what we all have lost or gained.
A question for you:
What is the strongest argument for the theory of evolution?
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 11:01:46 PM
Let's quit the sarcasm.
God wouldn't be God without creating life.
You exist for your own pleasure in this life, the highest form of pleasure is to come near the Source of your existence, every religion
teaches that and it seems that it's true, since religious people seem to live longer and are more happy according to statistics.
Religion teaches that man will return to God, so this life is a preparation for that meeting.
I shall try to explain it in the terms of the Big Bang:
- God is the Center, in the beginning of creation man has been sent away as vicegerent of God with the rest of creation (rapid expansion of the universe).
- The climax of this expansion will be the End as mentioned by religions, man will no longer be conscious of the Center.
- Every thing shall return to God, we will all be in the same place, some of us cannot or have not accepted that Center (Big Crunch).
Then all veils will be lifted and we will all know what the purpose of all of this was and what we all have lost or gained.
A question for you:
What is the strongest argument for the theory of evolution?
You still haven't addressed the why.
Was god, god before the creation of life?
With regards to the theory of evolution, I haven't studied or investigated this theory. I know little about it. My world view of being an Atheist is not dependent on the strengths of this theory.
QuoteWith regards to the theory of evolution, I haven't studied or investigated this theory. I know little about it. My world view of being an Atheist is not dependent on the strengths of this theory.
I agree with this completely. Religious people assume that evolution is the sole reason for atheist beliefs, but it is not.
Isok. I am ashamed to inform you that everything you said in post #16 is so full of holes - baseless assertions - that I am simply not going to waste my time in countering them.
You may wish to have the sarcasm to stop. I wish you would stay on topic.
Quote from: Asmodean on September 06, 2011, 09:52:00 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 09:13:11 PM
whose author's reject evolution.
Are you refering to Darwin..?
Darwin rejected the theory of evolution? I never heard, or read, anything about that. The only thing I ever heard of Darwin rejecting was organized religion, because it gave him no comfort after his favorite child died young. To the best of my knowledge, he continued to stand by his evolutionary theory, and to believe in god.
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 11:01:46 PM
A question for you:
What is the strongest argument for the theory of evolution?
For me, it would be that anyone who looks can actually see evolution happening -- for instance, in the generations of insects with very brief lifespans or in animals in isolated environments, like islands. By the way, here is the theory of evolution -- all the theory of evolution:
ev·o·lu·tion (v-lshn, v-)
n.
1. A continuing process of change from one state or condition to another or from one form to another.
2. The theory that groups of organisms change with passage of time, mainly as a result of natural selection, so that descendants differ morphologically and physiologically from their ancestors.
You can use different words to describe it, but that's basically it. Personally, I have no use for anyone's god or gods but my opinion about that has nothing to do with evolution. If anyone understands what in the definition above denies the existence of a deity in any way I'd love to hear it because that's always baffled me.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 07, 2011, 05:35:13 AM
Darwin rejected the theory of evolution? I never heard, or read, anything about that.
It's a
really beat-up religious "argument", that. Allegations, as far as I know, but pointless in any case.
Quote from: Asmodean on September 07, 2011, 06:53:35 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 07, 2011, 05:35:13 AM
Darwin rejected the theory of evolution? I never heard, or read, anything about that.
It's a really beat-up religious "argument", that. Allegations, as far as I know, but pointless in any case.
I've heard of this, and that he "accepted" God on his deathbed. Uh,huh.. Whatever theists. ::)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 07, 2011, 07:05:20 AM
Whatever ::)
Precisely. Somehow, some people just don't understand that denying being right, even should a person do that, does not negate the overall rightness in any way.
Quote from: Asmodean on September 07, 2011, 07:56:56 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 07, 2011, 07:05:20 AM
Whatever ::)
Precisely. Somehow, some people just don't understand that denying being right, even should a person do that, does not negate the overall rightness in any way.
Exactly. Whether he did or did not doesn't negate any of his work or theories. I wouldnt hold it against him. Death sucks! It's scary... And no one WANTS to die. So yeah.. Hopefully i'll build my android body and live forever xD buwahaha~
Quote from: iSok on September 06, 2011, 11:01:46 PM
What is the strongest argument for the theory of evolution?
Read this ISoK http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7486.0
I've heard that b.s. story about Darwin rejecting evolution on his deathbed, and there is no evidence whatsoever to prove it happened other than some theist trying to disprove his theory.
Quote from: Xjeepguy on September 07, 2011, 11:52:47 AM
I've heard that b.s. story about Darwin rejecting evolution on his deathbed, and there is no evidence whatsoever to prove it happened other than some theist trying to disprove his theory.
Darwin never changed his mind, it's all BS. And even if he had his theory has never been disproved and all scientifically vaild research carried out since 1859 has validated the core concept of natural selection that drives evolution.
Quote from: Tank on September 07, 2011, 12:37:01 PM
Quote from: Xjeepguy on September 07, 2011, 11:52:47 AM
I've heard that b.s. story about Darwin rejecting evolution on his deathbed, and there is no evidence whatsoever to prove it happened other than some theist trying to disprove his theory.
Darwin never changed his mind, it's all BS. And even if he had his theory has never been disproved and all scientifically vaild research carried out since 1859 has validated the core concept of natural selection that drives evolution.
I've been thinking about this "Darwin rejected evolution" story and have a theory. I know a lot of theists, esp. fundamentalists, are certain that you can't both accept evolution and believe in a god, so when then learn that Darwin
did believe in the existence of a god, they automatically assume he rejected evolution. The fact is many theists accept the theory of evolution, even Dr. Laura accepts it for crying out loud and she's a huge god fan.
I like this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
But there's so many excellent evolutionary parables it's hard to choose.
Are we arguing the validity of the dangerous idea or reminiscing over our favourite bits?
Um...bacteria evolving to eat nylon, which is not a substance found naturally. Examples of observed speciation. Our fused chromossome 2. etc. etc.
To all the other's here.
Since Stevil was talking about proof of religion in the same way as science, I asked him about evolution.
As a theist, I believe evolution is a plausible and currently the best scientific theory for the total spectrum of life.
One of the arguments for evolution is that all species are linked, for example in bone structure or cell structure.
Even if you can't see the process happening live, the fossil record shows a slow change of appearance during millions of years.
I was hoping that Stevil would raise this as evidence, since the same counts for religion.
The great world transforming religions all have basically the same message and some of the details that are found
within their myth's are as clear as daylight and are put forward by nations that were separated by time and space.
This cannot be questioned and many scholars had and still have their own explanation for this phenomenon.
The theist of course says that God revaled this religions, the atheist says that it's the collective human psyche, the need for an answer.
Exactly the same counts for evolution, there are people that stricly reject it, because they don't find the fossil record
very convincing and all the other points that are made are also rejected in some way.
It takes a lot of reading on theology of different religions, that it's not mumbo jumbo that is presented by fallible human beings.
But it is an infallible system that is introduced by different religions, point is whether you are going to believe it or not.
To further answer the question 'Why God?'.
As a believer, I don't know the perfect answer to the question; 'Why do I exist?'.
But I do know what to do in this life, that task fulfills the essence of every human being whatever you believe or wherever you're from; to reach the highest
station of happiness and for every believer that goal can be reached, by growing towards God. It's not like throwing your life away as many people think.
One of the reason why alcohol, premarital sex and so on are forbidden by the Sharia because they are obstacles in the way to true happiness.
Stevil, earlier mentioned that there's no learning process in this life, he's clearly mistaken.
We're blinded by our way of life, especially in the West that we've never looked back or asked ourselves; what type of people were
our ancestors?
I've met a very pious sufi saint in Afghanistan, one of my personal experiences.
He didn't talk much and he wasn't the typical radical idiot that you'll see running around with an Ak-47 shooting infidels.
The sheer presence of this man was just overwhelming, he was rather extremely calm and had a presence of other
worldliness, probably the most majestic human being I've ever seen or ever will see.
Clearly this man had something with him that you cannot learn in books.
At the end of the day it's all about what you choose to believe.
Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
Stevil, earlier mentioned that there's no learning process in this life, he's clearly mistaken.
I meant, for an all knowing god, it knows everything, everything that has happened and everything that will happen.
How can it learn if it knows everything already?
For this god there seems (to me) to be no use , point or purpose for creation. It just doesn't make logical sense why a perfect all knowing god would create existence.
Quote from: Stevil on September 07, 2011, 08:14:21 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
Stevil, earlier mentioned that there's no learning process in this life, he's clearly mistaken.
I meant, for an all knowing god, it knows everything, everything that has happened and everything that will happen.
How can it learn if it knows everything already?
For this god there seems (to me) to be no use , point or purpose for creation. It just doesn't make logical sense why a perfect all knowing god would create existence.
I don't know why God created life, other than being God.
God doesn't learn, we learn and we grow.
Predestination and freewill are two issues that are debated a lot within the Muslim community.
Some give a simple answer by saying that God is beyond time and space and we are bounded by time and space, God
already knows what our end station is, for which we are fully responsible. Other's give a complicated answer supported by scripture.
Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:34:09 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 07, 2011, 08:14:21 PM
Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
Stevil, earlier mentioned that there's no learning process in this life, he's clearly mistaken.
I meant, for an all knowing god, it knows everything, everything that has happened and everything that will happen.
How can it learn if it knows everything already?
For this god there seems (to me) to be no use , point or purpose for creation. It just doesn't make logical sense why a perfect all knowing god would create existence.
I don't know why God created life, other than being God.
God doesn't learn, we learn and we grow.
Predestination and freewill are two issues that are debated a lot within the Muslim community.
Some give a simple answer by saying that God is beyond time and space and we are bounded by time and space, God
already knows what our end station is, for which we are fully responsible. Other's give a complicated answer supported by scripture.
God is just god and he/she doesn't learn or grow?
That is seriously your arguement?
And you really think prematrial sex has anything to do with acheiving happiness in life?
Btw: pudding, fascinating article on the evolution of the peppered moths. <3
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 07, 2011, 10:41:16 PMAnd you really think prematrial sex has anything to do with acheiving happiness in life?
I do!
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 07, 2011, 10:55:26 PM
Quote from: Davin on September 07, 2011, 10:47:39 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 07, 2011, 10:41:16 PMAnd you really think prematrial sex has anything to do with acheiving happiness in life?
I do!
Really? :(
If it makes one happy, then how could it not have something to do with happiness in life? I think there is a bit of stigma around sex in general, let alone sex before marriage. I think holding off for marriage simply to hold off for marriage is not good, but I don't advocate that one should do anything that moves. Simply remove both the idea that one should have a lot of sex with a lot of people along with the idea that one should wait until they're married before they have sex (let alone that same sex marriage is not yet legally recognized in many places still which prevents a lot of people from having marital sex).
So I do think that premarital sex can help two people come closer and be happier together, but like everything else, it depends on circumstances. Even though I was being a bit silly in my last post.
@Davin : oh ok!
I had sex with my gf, but I also believe in having serious, and comitted relationships. Our three year anniversary is coming up.this winter, and I could not be happier. I've been in love with her even before we started dating. She wants to get married, and that is ok with me :D
But seriously though, sex is part of any serious relationship. I love the connection I feel to another human being through intamacy.
I actually think that I will be encouraging my daughters to have sex before they get married. I don't want them to marry someone just so that they get to have sex.
If you get the sexual stuff out of the way then you can move on to the more meaningfull stuff.
Quote from: Stevil on September 08, 2011, 10:38:31 AM
I actually think that I will be encouraging my daughters to have sex before they get married. I don't want them to marry someone just so that they get to have sex.
If you get the sexual stuff out of the way then you can move on to the more meaningfull stuff.
I didn't encourage or discourage my kids (2 girls, 1 boy) from having sex once they were old enough. But we did make sure that they appretiated the emotional and physical ramifications of what they got up to. Once they were 16 they could shut the door to their rooms and we knocked before we went in. They last thing I wanted was my kids doing stuff in an unsafe environment where if they said stop there was no where to go and get help.
Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
The great world transforming religions all have basically the same message and some of the details that are found within their myth's are as clear as daylight and are put forward by nations that were separated by time and space.
This cannot be questioned and many scholars had and still have their own explanation for this phenomenon.The theist of course says that God revaled this religions, the atheist says that it's the collective human psyche, the need for an answer.
Exactly the same counts for evolution, there are people that stricly reject it, because they don't find the fossil record very convincing and all the other points that are made are also rejected in some way.
ISok I think you're talking rubbish, not for the first time. Different religions have taught many different things. This atheist has read many religious texts and doesn't see the same message being taught by all religions and 'a collective human psyche' at play behind it all. Religions have taught vastly different things and had vastly different conceptions of gods, goddesses, the universe and man's place in it.
Evolution is a theory based on scientifically looking at the evidence in the natural world around us, your view on religion and a shared 'quest for god' is an unscientific attempt to shoehorn all religions together based on your own personal beliefs, which I suspect are based on Sufi texts you have read, which in turn are based on Greek and Hindu philosophy. To say that 'religions all have basically the same message' and 'this cannot be questioned' is utter bullcrap! That's a personal assumption and not a scientific fact, and in my personal view it actually flies in the face of all the evidence.
Quote from: iSok on September 07, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
To all the other's here.
Since Stevil was talking about proof of religion in the same way as science, I asked him about evolution.
As a theist, I believe evolution is a plausible and currently the best scientific theory for the total spectrum of life.
One of the arguments for evolution is that all species are linked, for example in bone structure or cell structure.
Even if you can't see the process happening live, the fossil record shows a slow change of appearance during millions of years.
I was hoping that Stevil would raise this as evidence, since the same counts for religion.
The great world transforming religions all have basically the same message and some of the details that are found
within their myth's are as clear as daylight and are put forward by nations that were separated by time and space.
This cannot be questioned and many scholars had and still have their own explanation for this phenomenon.
The theist of course says that God revaled this religions, the atheist says that it's the collective human psyche, the need for an answer.
Exactly the same counts for evolution, there are people that stricly reject it, because they don't find the fossil record
very convincing and all the other points that are made are also rejected in some way.
It takes a lot of reading on theology of different religions, that it's not mumbo jumbo that is presented by fallible human beings.
But it is an infallible system that is introduced by different religions, point is whether you are going to believe it or not.
To further answer the question 'Why God?'.
As a believer, I don't know the perfect answer to the question; 'Why do I exist?'.
But I do know what to do in this life, that task fulfills the essence of every human being whatever you believe or wherever you're from; to reach the highest
station of happiness and for every believer that goal can be reached, by growing towards God. It's not like throwing your life away as many people think.
One of the reason why alcohol, premarital sex and so on are forbidden by the Sharia because they are obstacles in the way to true happiness.
Stevil, earlier mentioned that there's no learning process in this life, he's clearly mistaken.
We're blinded by our way of life, especially in the West that we've never looked back or asked ourselves; what type of people were
our ancestors?
I've met a very pious sufi saint in Afghanistan, one of my personal experiences.
He didn't talk much and he wasn't the typical radical idiot that you'll see running around with an Ak-47 shooting infidels.
The sheer presence of this man was just overwhelming, he was rather extremely calm and had a presence of other
worldliness, probably the most majestic human being I've ever seen or ever will see.
Clearly this man had something with him that you cannot learn in books.
At the end of the day it's all about what you choose to believe.
When Darwin wrote Origin of Species he didn't use the fossil record because he realised that while indicative of evolution at the time it was too full of significant gaps to use. It would be too easy a target for morons to exploit. Since 1859 many of the gaps have been filled in and just as importantly no fossil has ever been found that would contradict the Theory of Evolution. We now have a growing body of data associated with genetics of many different species and I read an estimate that by 2020 it will cost just $1,000 to sequence a genome. This genetic data has for the most part confirmed the cladistic based specification of species, and where there was a difference the cladistic model was modified.
The Theory of Evolution was never based on the fossil record.
Quote from: Stevil on September 08, 2011, 10:38:31 AM
I actually think that I will be encouraging my daughters to have sex before they get married. I don't want them to marry someone just so that they get to have sex.
If you get the sexual stuff out of the way then you can move on to the more meaningfull stuff.
I'm here for ya if they need any help with that.
(needing the duck-behind-computer smiley right about now)
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on September 08, 2011, 04:12:24 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 08, 2011, 10:38:31 AM
I actually think that I will be encouraging my daughters to have sex before they get married. I don't want them to marry someone just so that they get to have sex.
If you get the sexual stuff out of the way then you can move on to the more meaningfull stuff.
I'm here for ya if they need any help with that.
Hmmm, you'll have to wait a while. They are 2.9years and 0.9 years.
Also, they get to choose who and when, I have nothing to do with that.