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What would it take for you (a creationist) to accept evolution as more likely?

And since we may be running short on creationists, feel free to play devil's advocate.
 ;)

Well, I have had a Christian tell me that God would have to tell him evolution was real.  So, for some, it would take divine intervention.  I hope that is not a common answer from the ones who do not currently accept evolution.

It would take them disposing of their usual psychological reactance to overwhelming evidence and lightening up on a literal interpretation of the bible for many along with seeing there as being no conflict between their faith and the scientific theory.  Anything contrary to deeply held beliefs will almost surely be met with defensiveness, anxiety, anger and aggression...it's a fairly natural reaction.  However, many people can make use of our wonderful frontal lobes and use reason to understand the world better rather than see it as we want it to be.

Quote from: "Whitney"Well, I have had a Christian tell me that God would have to tell him evolution was real. So, for some, it would take divine intervention. I hope that is not a common answer from the ones who do not currently accept evolution.

Most if not all creationist are christians or other believers of the God of the Holy Bible so it will be a common answer among us.However as far as Intelligent Design goes you may find some that would switch without a revelation from God.Intelligent Design is not creation,creation came about by the Truine God of the Bible,I.D. is not defined to the exclusiveness of the God of the Bible.

Quote from: "Godschild"

Quote from: "Whitney"Well, I have had a Christian tell me that God would have to tell him evolution was real. So, for some, it would take divine intervention. I hope that is not a common answer from the ones who do not currently accept evolution.

Most if not all creationist are christians or other believers of the God of the Holy Bible so it will be a common answer among us.However as far as Intelligent Design goes you may find some that would switch without a revelation from God.Intelligent Design is not creation,creation came about by the Truine God of the Bible,I.D. is not defined to the exclusiveness of the God of the Bible.

Well, if you ask Behe (one of the biggest proponents of ID), it is the Christian God BUT such an idea is also supported by people like the Raelians since it jives with their alien/genetic engineering idea of creation.  William Paley's ideas are still alive and well in the 21st century....and that's sad.

Quote from: "Godschild"

Quote from: "Whitney"Well, I have had a Christian tell me that God would have to tell him evolution was real. So, for some, it would take divine intervention. I hope that is not a common answer from the ones who do not currently accept evolution.

Most if not all creationist are christians or other believers of the God of the Holy Bible so it will be a common answer among us.However as far as Intelligent Design goes you may find some that would switch without a revelation from God.Intelligent Design is not creation,creation came about by the Truine God of the Bible,I.D. is not defined to the exclusiveness of the God of the Bible.

Yes, that's because the Judeo-Christian-Muslim holy texts seem to be the only religious books that some people have interpreted to be at odds with science.  The Muslims have gotten smart and many are now trying to claim that  there is science in the Koran...those attempts can be interesting to say the least.

Imo, ID is just a fancy way to say that god did it...the intelligent designer could be an alien; but I seriously doubt many proponents of ID want us to mention that fact very often.

I heard a new term the other day...Creatoevolutionist.  I guess that's what some Christians who accept evolution are calling themselves to make sure they aren't mistaken for atheists....pretty silly if you ask me.

99% of the Christians I know in person are not Biblical literalists and have no problem accepting evolution...they don't even bother mentioning ID because they know evolution has nothing to do with origins.

Every creationist I've ever discussed this with treats the subject not as a matter of knowledge or belief but as a matter of morality.

It's rooted deeply in the idea that man is moral because god enforces a moral code, of which god is the source. They see evolution as an attempt to push god out of the picture for the sole purpose of freeing ourselves from that moral code so we don't have to feel guilty about being hedonists (or some variation of that).

I do not think it's a matter of convincing anyone of the validity of the theory, but convincing them that it has no impact on morality.

Quote from: "JillSwift"I do not think it's a matter of convincing anyone of the validity of the theory, but convincing them that it has no impact on morality.

I'm not so sure. It's been suggested that morals in society have come about through a sort of Darwinian evolution as well.

Quote from: "BadPoison"

Quote from: "JillSwift"I do not think it's a matter of convincing anyone of the validity of the theory, but convincing them that it has no impact on morality.

I'm not so sure. It's been suggested that morals in society have come about through a sort of Darwinian evolution as well.

Sure, morals are an extension of our social instincts.

Which is why the theory of evolution itself does not impact the question of mortality.  Evolution simply describes an ongoing process, and in itself does not hold meaning for morals one way or the other - it doesn't even preclude a god as a law-giver. (Plenty of other things do that.)

I would believe in evolution if there was proof of it, but sadly there is not. Plan and simple, the evolution theory lacks the appropriate amount of evidence to propel it into reality. Therefore, I choose to live in reality and accept what good science tells me. If evolution were true (as-in proven without possiblity of denial) then we wouldn't be typing on this forum right now. Does anyone deny gravity? If evolution was as solid as gravity then I would love to join the ranks. Unfortunatly I think to critically to accept something with so many holes blown in it. Something like that can't be the sail of my ship.

Quote from: "perspective"I would believe in evolution if there was proof of it, but sadly there is not. Plan and simple, the evolution theory lacks the appropriate amount of evidence to propel it into reality. Therefore, I choose to live in reality and accept what good science tells me. If evolution were true (as-in proven without possiblity of denial) then we wouldn't be typing on this forum right now. Does anyone deny gravity? If evolution was as solid as gravity then I would love to join the ranks. Unfortunatly I think to critically to accept something with so many holes blown in it. Something like that can't be the sail of my ship.

Dude, do you even try to learn about it? Here's the link I mentioned (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/sex/guppy/) in the other thread about guppies. Evolution is a fact that's just not testable in a lab using a natural timeline. Do you deny what materials make up the sun or other stars too far away for us to take an actual sample? The same sort of science is used. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Ah, the old "If evolution actually happened, I wouldn't be able to say it didn't!"  That doesn't logically follow . . . Trying to understand evolution, a multi-faceted, complex mechanism of nature, is a tad more difficult than understanding that you're tethered to the Earth by gravity.  One is a simple fact.  A person may believe the world is flat until you show them a few pictures of it from orbit, then it's pretty much a done deal they accept it.  Let me illustrate:

Misconception: The Earth is flat.
Method of correction: Demonstrate the singular fact that it is not.

Best part?  Some people still say the Earth is flat.  This is only one fact, that you can observe for yourself if you like (go out to sea and watch ships disappear below the horizon), and yet people can brazenly claim that we're all deceived by a global conspiracy of airline pilots and scientists.  You know why some of them do it?  Because the Earth is described as flat in the Bible, figuratively many Christians would say, but flat nonetheless.  Many more Christians (relatively) will argue that the Earth is stationary in space.  They are literally modern geocentrists.  They believe NASA is trying to use heliocentrism as a base for endorsing all other "corrupt" scientific theory, right up to evolution.  You know this is ridiculous, but they sure don't.  They think they're the few that can see the world as it is.  Anyway, this is what can happen even when you try to tell someone a singular fact that they believe challenges their holy book.  So let's look at what we need you to learn to understand evolution -- it sure isn't coming to you in a nifty snapshot, or personal direct experience with the capacity for lay observation (gravity).

Misconception:  Evolution isn't really happening.
Method of correction:  Teach the capacity of natural selection to act upon inherited genes and mutations.  The person must then realize this is all evolution is.  If they object from a lack of understanding mutation, teach them about that (this is the typical creationist downfall).  If they think it sounds reasonable, but say it didn't ever happen in nature, show them the branching hierarchy of inherited traits, and utilize comparative anatomy to show the similarities between even the most seemingly-unrelated life.  Knowledge of taxonomy helps: the classification is in the order of evolutionary development (it just doesn't describe every last change), and it was created by Carl Linnaeus, a devout Christian creationist (who classified us as primates, and then said we should wonder why God made us so similar to the other primates).  Show them the genetic similarities, including inherited, same-positioned, endogenous retro-viruses.  Show them the atavisms (archaic, ancestral, and only ancestral, features normally absent in the distant descendants:  Chickens with teeth, humans with tails, humans with extreme body-wide hair growth, and so many more.  You'll never see birds growing hair, or dolphins growing feathers because those traits never developed on their evolutionary path.  You will, however, sometimes find whales with hind leg bones, because their ancestors walked on land, same with dolphins.  Incidentally, they're also the only "fish" with nostrils that also lactate, and no other "fish" occasionally manifests atavistic leg bones, though a few lungfish can walk on their flippers even now).  Show them the massive dormant genes that are composed of archaic, now unused, DNA.  Show them the predictions evolutionary theory makes (like where and how deep to dig to find a fossil with certain traits, or what basal forms we should find to give rise to extant life).  Introduce them to botany, because animals aren't the only things that evolve, and plants are evolving all throughout the fossil record, and are absent in strata outside their era, too just like animals (you can't say they ran from the flood waters; they shouldn't be buried in different layers if they all were created in the same 24 hours).  If they don't accept evolution after hearing all the evidence (and they can only admit it accounts for it -- if it doesn't, they should go tear it up in a scientific journal, because scientists are trying to determine how the world works, not construct a fantasy world), and if they just ignore the scientific theory that accounts for it all -- the ERVs, morphologic and genetic similarities, atavisms, layout of the fossil record, massive differences in radiological dating of various fossils, and ongoing mutation and natural selection (evolution) in the world today -- just walk away disappointed.

True, you don't have to do all of that, if the person is willing to tentatively accept it and continue research on their own.  I was, if you prefer, gullible:  When I first learned of evolution, it wasn't so much as mentioned that our species evolved.  My 6th grade teacher actually went so far as to imply we didn't, only everything else.  I left the class thinking "Wow, so that's why so many plants are green.  That's why we look like apes.  That's why all the breeds of dog look alike."  I was still full of misconceptions at the time, but it made sense, intuitively.  I always had difficulty with how God made the universe in 144 hours.  I could not understand how.  Evolution was a method which he could have used to diversify life that I could understand.  I couldn't begin to imagine a method of near-instantaneous creation, and I wasn't witnessing the ongoing presence of a power like that;  new things were not popping into existence each day, even new planets and stars were not created on the fly.  I was seeing the presence of a genius God, who had a system for doing things.  A universe that created what he required, as surely as he created it.  Incidentally, I never found a refutation of this belief in the Bible.  Genesis says that God commanded the earth to bring forth life, and that we were created in the joint image of God and nature.  It explicitly said to me that God liked his naturally-ordered universe.  After all, why would he bother with methods of natural creation if he was then gonna do it all himself?  I figured God would like it better like this, like we see it happen now, and that he had the capacity to make such a system, so he would!  I mean, he's God, right!  

Anyway, I've gotten a tad off-topic.  Your skepticism in regards to evolution is as good as skepticism toward anything else, but if the only way you would accept it is if God came and told you in person, you're doing it wrong.  Even if there is a biblical God, he never operated like that, telling people the answer to any arbitrary query.  He created a universe that gave rise to life, and intelligence, and language, and books for you to read so that he wouldn't have to do it in person.  That's the way I saw it.  Evolution is far too deep, too complex, for me to give you a hammer-time stop, especially if you don't want to accept it.  That is why you can still claim that it's hogwash.  You think it clashes with Christianity, and you haven't been given a deep review over it.  If you asked me how to factor a trig problem without just claiming there was an answer, but we weren't meant to understand it, and I worked it out for you and gave the answer, and you then asked me to prove that each step in the factorization was legitimate and you told me I had to reduce math to its logical proofs for each operation, then we'd be in the same place.  I'm not trying to answer 2 + 2 for you, here.  We're factoring trig and you're free to doubt every step of the factorization.  That is how you can continue telling us that we don't know, because you cannot readily see that we do.  Incidentally, you don't believe that trig should be unknowable, but you do believe our origin should be ineffable, and you're not alone, you have lots of support from other people who feel the same way.  That's OK, I'll keep offering you all the evidence I can.

Peace.

Quote from: "PipeBox"Ah...

Beautiful post, sir!
I commend your eloquence, and the thought you put into it.  It may just be "alot of words, not really convincing" to some, but I think it's well written, and even if the person I quoted just now has stopped his ears, there may be others who are willing to listen.  Thus, in my opinion, it was well worth the effort.  

 :livelong:

Thank you, it's good to know someone reads the wall-sized paragraphs.  I'd make 'em shorter, but I don't know where to break to keep 'em smaller.  Anyway, I'm sure it's worth the effort, and even if it weren't, I have a really comfortable keyboard.  

This topic in general really bothers me.  It's definitely possible to believe in evolution and still be Christian.  The two are not against each other AT ALL, except in people's minds.  I am a Christian majoring in biology and I know a lot of Christians who are majoring in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology.  The beliefs do not contradict each other, though people who are close-minded and uneducated might not understand.
I have you confused now, but let me explain.  I know science.  Science is all about explaining the HOW of things; explaining observations of the world around us.  Religion answers the WHY.  I believe that all creatures evolved from a single multi-celled organism because of the evidence.  I believe that God facilitated that evolution, whereas many other scientists aim to explain why sudden "random" mutations occurred.  

I'm actually reading about the prebiotic soup where molecules for some reason came together to form amino acids and it has been found that the only way this could have happened was forthe monomers to be incubated with mineral particles found in clay and mud in order to avoid hydrolysis.  And this reminded me of a story I had heard many times that was familiar to me.
Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostril the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
When I began studying evolution I thought that it was going to try and destroy my beliefs and instead it complimented them. I believe in my heart (brain if we're being scientific) that God created everything and science shows me HOW.

Therefore, when I see posts that pit evolution against creationism, it saddens me and actually kind of hurts.  I think its the whole "they" that makes me think people are saying, "they think in their ignorance..." I know nothing is going to change, but it hurts knowing that people attack my faith like this and I'm so sorry that many Christians do attack science and evolution.

I'm sorry that this was a really long post, but its my first one here, and if I stay awhile and you get to know me, you will find that I talk A LOT. And, as its my first post here, I really feel that I should say, it's not a war of beliefs; I'm not going to try and shove Jesus down your throat and I hope that I am not criticized in return. I'd say that the world isn't black and white, but I think Sirius says it better: "The world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters"(Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix). I really look forward to getting to know some of you here and don't be afraid to PM me and introduce yourselves! Peace!

~Amanda~

Thank you, MonstersInsideMe, it's nice to be reminded that not all those with religion are mad as hatters.

Though, I do take a bit of issue with the idea that religion answers the "why". I think that religion grants meaning to the processes science studies, but can not actually answer any questions about it. That's because religion is, by any measure, an essentially random set of value judgments. Because it requires you take certain assumptions on faith alone - not the least of which is the idea of a creator/guider god.

Because it's a matter of faith, and can not be proven true or even granted evidence, it doesn't actually answer questions but readily provides a framework on which to see meaning in one's existence - and it does not require evidence or proof to fill that role.

Quote from: "JillSwift"Thank you, MonstersInsideMe, it's nice to be reminded that not all those with religion are mad as hatters.

Though, I do take a bit of issue with the idea that religion answers the "why". I think that religion grants meaning to the processes science studies, but can not actually answer any questions about it. That's because religion is, by any measure, an essentially random set of value judgments. Because it requires you take certain assumptions on faith alone - not the least of which is the idea of a creator/guider god.

Because it's a matter of faith, and can not be proven true or even granted evidence, it doesn't actually answer questions but readily provides a framework on which to see meaning in one's existence - and it does not require evidence or proof to fill that role.

Right, but that's what I'm saying.  The thing that started the chemical evolution, the spontaneous generation of life if you will, cannot be explained by science, that has to be explained by a persons own beliefs. As a Christian I think that God gave that spark and facilitated random mutation (an essential part of evolution).  What causes the mutations can't be explained by science, science can only say that they happened.  That's the point I'm trying to make. Does that make sense?  I'm trying to clarify and I'm not sure I'm doing that great of a job.

~Amanda~

Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"Right, but that's what I'm saying.  The thing that started the chemical evolution, the spontaneous generation of life if you will, cannot be explained by science, that has to be explained by a persons own beliefs.

Well, here's the thing: To say that something "can not be explained by science" is a big, big claim. I think you would be hard pressed indeed to actually back that claim.

Abiogenesis is being explored by science still, and such research is really still at the starting stages, so there isn't currently any broadly accepted description of how it came about, but that does not mean an explanation isn't forthcoming.

Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"As a Christian I think that God gave that spark and facilitated random mutation (an essential part of evolution).  What causes the mutations can't be explained by science, science can only say that they happened.  That's the point I'm trying to make. Does that make sense?  I'm trying to clarify and I'm not sure I'm doing that great of a job.

~Amanda~

You're positing what is classically labeled as the "God of the gaps". Where there is currently no known or no clear explanation, one posits "God did it."

I was describing something more philosophical: No matter what the explanation, or lack of, the idea of God and a surrounding religion offers not an explanation of the events and processes, but instead offers some context for meaning. It avoids messes that the "God of the gaps" will get into when science fills that gap.

Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"Right, but that's what I'm saying. The thing that started the chemical evolution, the spontaneous generation of life if you will, cannot be explained by science, that has to be explained by a persons own beliefs.

If it cannot be explained then you must conclude: "I don't know." Not, "Therefore the answer is God!"

And for the record.... you're wrong. It can (in theory) be explain. It hasn't yet fully been explained. We do know that organic compounds can come from inorganic compounds.

QuoteReligion answers the WHY.

Why questions presuppose purpose. There's nothing reasonable in asking "Why?" for everything.

QuoteIt's definitely possible to believe in evolution and still be Christian. The two are not against each other AT ALL,

It is possible but actually less reasonable than fundamentalism. Evolution shows we are not designed. Any creator would have to be merely a chooser of physical laws. He does not posses powers nor the concern of the God in the Gospels. But at any rate: I'm glad you believe in evolution.  :headbang:

When you say " I believe that God facilitated that evolution, whereas many other scientists aim to explain why sudden "random" mutations occurred. " and " God gave that spark and facilitated random mutation "

What do you mean he facilitated random mutation? Mutations are caused, by and large, when strands of DNA are copied incorrectly ( there are many specefic ways in which this can happen ). The copying process is governed by the laws of physics ( molecular dynamics ), due to a multitude of factors involved with molecular dynamics ( the molecules are vibrating and moving about all over the place, they are very pliable, and the process for folding them is not foolproof), errors are bound to occur every now and again.

Errors like this will happen as long as there is DNA like substances and as long as the laws of physics are in effect. Do you mean to say god facilitates these mutations simply in a passive way, by making the laws of physics as they are, or do you mean he deliberatley interferes in a supernatural way, so that if a scientist looked at a mutation taking placing through an implausibly powerful microscope, he would see a little bit of magic?

Also, asking someone to explain why a random event occured is a pretty tough task, scientists tend to be rather clever, but I think you may be asking too much of them.

I'm not trying to convince you guys that this facilitating by God is the truth.  I'm just stating my belief and my personal opinion.  I already told you I'm not trying to make you believe anything I believe, so for the person who asked me to prove it; I can't.  That's what faith is about and I think its unfair to say that it is on me to prove that to anyone but myself.  In my mind I see this correlation. "I see blue." "Well prove to me that the blue you see is the same blue I see or else its not really blue because its not blue for everyone"  Sorry I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed and attacked even though I'm probably not being attacked.

@SSY
According to my beliefs, God is the creator of science and the mechanisms of mutation, etc., so he doesn't need to interfere by using "a little bit of magic".

Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"I'm not trying to convince you guys that this facilitating by God is the truth.  I'm just stating my belief and my personal opinion.  I already told you I'm not trying to make you believe anything I believe, so for the person who asked me to prove it; I can't.  That's what faith is about and I think its unfair to say that it is on me to prove that to anyone but myself.  In my mind I see this correlation. "I see blue." "Well prove to me that the blue you see is the same blue I see or else its not really blue because its not blue for everyone"  Sorry I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed and attacked even though I'm probably not being attacked.

@SSY
According to my beliefs, God is the creator of science and the mechanisms of mutation, etc., so he doesn't need to interfere by using "a little bit of magic".

Ok, glad I am clear now.

Though this still leaves questions. You said scientists can't explain why mutations happen, did you infact mean scientists can't explain why the laws of physics are as they are? When you said "many other scientists aim to explain why sudden "random" mutations occurred" you seem to imply the mutations are not random at all, which is why I asked about the magic, are they random ( as in comply with the laws of physics, but impossible to predict is a causal wa) or has god decided these mutations are going to happen, and they are happening according to his plan?

How would you differentiate between mechanisms and laws of physics put in place by god ( Your god ), put in place by some other god, or that just seemed to be a part of the universe?

Hi everyone,

I'm totally new to this, now that I've finished my exams I'm finding I have WAY too much time on my hands and am beginning to ponder the confusion that is religion, so please be gentle, my brain is still trying to recover from months of revision :)

If you are a Christian who beleives in evolution, I'm assuming this means you believe in death coming before Adam sinned. I thought most Christians believed that God initially created a perfect world, and so obvioulsy death would not be a part of it.  What are your thoughts on this?
If as a Christian you then believe there will be a new heaven and new earth, in the state that God originally intended it to be, from an evolutionist's point of view, wouldn't it contain death and suffering? And why would a perfect God create a world with death etc. in the first place?

Also, at what point do you start believing the rest of the Bible and take it literally?

Thanks

Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"That's what faith is about and I think its unfair to say that it is on me to prove that to anyone but myself.  In my mind I see this correlation. "I see blue." "Well prove to me that the blue you see is the same blue I see or else its not really blue because its not blue for everyone"  Sorry I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed and attacked even though I'm probably not being attacked.

Ah, the wonders of Rayleigh scattering....[/mini-hijack]

Apparently, transitional fossils and the "hobbit" have destroyed whatever credibility evolution had. As well as "dishonesty" in the scientific community and how its not possible we went from fur to sweat.  

Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"What causes the mutations can't be explained by science, science can only say that they happened.

not trying to attack you, but google "what causes genetic mutations" and none of the billion responses will say "god." science does explain what causes mutations.  

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