Happy Atheist Forum

America has a problem and it isn't Trump.

In 2016 62,984,828 people voted for Trump.
In 2020 72,609,925 people voted for Trump (so far).
That's almost 10 million more.
That is the second highest number of votes in the history of presidential elections. Obama got 70 million.
That is 30% of the electoral population.
Trumps vote grew by 16%.

Trump is the symptom of American arrogance and ignorance, he is not the cause. He simply gave voice to 72 million people. What Trump has done is illustrate that the American Dream can also be the American Nightmare.

You know revolutions..?

Those things where the plebs pick up their pitchforks and usually end up slaughtered in their thousands for years and decades after?

I have nothing against president Trump (The office, as opposed to the man) but I think your analysis is incomplete.

Arrogance and ignorance, perhaps. However, there is also a large Populist (specifically, anti-elitist/anti-System™) component here. How Donald Trump is not one of the elites, or is "one of the good ones," I honestly struggle to understand. Maybe it's the way he talks and walks and tweets..? Regardless, the sentiment was there in 2016, and is still very much so.

One must also consider that economically, Trump's term in office has been kind to a lot of people until the zombie flu, and it's possible that they do not attribute the subsequent fall to the president.

America has always had a problem.  We never did fully live up to our creed (as Obama says) in that we never truly believed that all men were created equal and that all men had liberty.  We really meant "all white males who own property" at the very beginning, and only gradually and grudgingly did we extend those rights to other races and females. Now that the white majority-minority sees the prospect of losing its privileged position in our society, they are lashing out against that.  It's not always arrogance or ignorance. Sometimes it's primal fear.  The prospect of being equal with "the other" horrifies them. Trump is their middle finger pointed at societal change. They don't want that kind of change, and they just can't believe it's happening.  Tribalism and its resulting racism are as American as apple pie. We enslaved blacks, annihilated Native Americans, incarcerated Japanese Americans, and kept other groups isolated as possible.  Even Irish and Italians had problems fitting in. And women - that's a whole different story.  So, whites, especially white males, are holding on to their privileged position as much as possible, and Trump is their chieftan.  That is our problem.

Sadly we have a bad history of racism in this country and it's still there. I think that the white male in general (not all of course) is afraid of getting the same treatment handed to them should equality finally arrive.

Quote from: Randy on November 13, 2020, 04:32:49 PM
Sadly we have a bad history of racism in this country and it's still there. I think that the white male in general (not all of course) is afraid of getting the same treatment handed to them should equality finally arrive.

There has been major improvements made in the last four decades. The sixties and seventies of the last century were pretty bad in comparison, unless you believe in that critical racism crap.

No doubt, there have been improvements.  We don't have slavery, we don't have Jim Crow, we have or have had a black President, black Congressmen and Senators, black Supreme Court justices, and we just elected a black woman as VP.  But if you lived here, you would see that racism is still alive.

Quote from: Tom62 on November 13, 2020, 04:52:45 PM

Quote from: Randy on November 13, 2020, 04:32:49 PM
Sadly we have a bad history of racism in this country and it's still there. I think that the white male in general (not all of course) is afraid of getting the same treatment handed to them should equality finally arrive.

There has been major improvements made in the last four decades. The sixties and seventies of the last century were pretty bad in comparison, unless you believe in that critical racism crap.

No, I don't believe in that for a second. I agree that a lot of improvements have been made since I was born. We still have some that have the mentality that certain people should be put in their place. I know of three people I'm close to that do.

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 13, 2020, 03:23:06 PM
America has always had a problem.  We never did fully live up to our creed (as Obama says) in that we never truly believed that all men were created equal and that all men had liberty.  We really meant "all white males who own property" at the very beginning, and only gradually and grudgingly did we extend those rights to other races and females. Now that the white majority-minority sees the prospect of losing its privileged position in our society, they are lashing out against that.  It's not always arrogance or ignorance. Sometimes it's primal fear.  The prospect of being equal with "the other" horrifies them. Trump is their middle finger pointed at societal change. They don't want that kind of change, and they just can't believe it's happening.  Tribalism and its resulting racism are as American as apple pie. We enslaved blacks, annihilated Native Americans, incarcerated Japanese Americans, and kept other groups isolated as possible.  Even Irish and Italians had problems fitting in. And women - that's a whole different story.  So, whites, especially white males, are holding on to their privileged position as much as possible, and Trump is their chieftan.  That is our problem.

Yup, a scary percentage of white fellow Americans just can't stand that things are changing. i'm absolutely appalled that this is my country. Tank, you hit the nail on the head that our problem isn't Trump; it's us.

Quote from: Anne D. on November 14, 2020, 05:20:48 AM

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 13, 2020, 03:23:06 PM
America has always had a problem.  We never did fully live up to our creed (as Obama says) in that we never truly believed that all men were created equal and that all men had liberty.  We really meant "all white males who own property" at the very beginning, and only gradually and grudgingly did we extend those rights to other races and females. Now that the white majority-minority sees the prospect of losing its privileged position in our society, they are lashing out against that.  It's not always arrogance or ignorance. Sometimes it's primal fear.  The prospect of being equal with "the other" horrifies them. Trump is their middle finger pointed at societal change. They don't want that kind of change, and they just can't believe it's happening.  Tribalism and its resulting racism are as American as apple pie. We enslaved blacks, annihilated Native Americans, incarcerated Japanese Americans, and kept other groups isolated as possible.  Even Irish and Italians had problems fitting in. And women - that's a whole different story.  So, whites, especially white males, are holding on to their privileged position as much as possible, and Trump is their chieftan.  That is our problem.

Yup, a scary percentage of white fellow Americans just can't stand that things are changing. i'm absolutely appalled that this is my country. Tank, you hit the nail on the head that our problem isn't Trump; it's us.

But fortunately not all of you. :)

Americans are just plain stupid, and lazy. It's really that simple. As you stated, trumpolini gives a voice to the vast majority of mindless trumpanzees. Anything, or anyone that can do their "thinking" for them, is just top-notch. This horde of witless worms, these bootlicking puppets, and their sycophantic devotion to the orange hitler wannabe is nothing short of a caustic stain on the honor of liberty!

I FUCKING HATE DONALD TRUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: No one on November 14, 2020, 05:15:06 PM
Americans are just plain stupid, and lazy. It's really that simple. As you stated, trumpolini gives a voice to the vast majority of mindless trumpanzees. Anything, or anyone that can do their "thinking" for them, is just top-notch. This horde of witless worms, these bootlicking puppets, and their sycophantic devotion to the orange hitler wannabe is nothing short of a caustic stain on the honor of liberty!

I FUCKING HATE DONALD TRUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, on second thought, maybe ignorance plays a part. Today newly elected Alabama Senator Tommy Tuberville (potato town??) said that Paris was happy in WWII to be freed from socialism and communism.  Except it was naziism. Now we know why Alabama voted for Trump. 

Quote from: Asmodean on November 13, 2020, 12:40:37 PM
Arrogance and ignorance, perhaps. However, there is also a large Populist (specifically, anti-elitist/anti-System™) component here. How Donald Trump is not one of the elites, or is "one of the good ones," I honestly struggle to understand. Maybe it's the way he talks and walks and tweets..? Regardless, the sentiment was there in 2016, and is still very much so.

One must also consider that economically, Trump's term in office has been kind to a lot of people until the zombie flu, and it's possible that they do not attribute the subsequent fall to the president.

Two very good points here.
Paul Krugman, a columnist for the New York Times, posited that Donald Trump is how his supporters imagine they would be like if they were rich, talking like that and making all their furniture gold-covered and building a whole fucking building with their name on it. So it's basically a personality cult. He embodies their fantasies.
And yes, despite all the crazy shit that has happened, more voters approved of his handling of the economy than Biden, right up to the end. There's a scarily high chance he would have won if not for covid.
We are definitely in a scary time in our history, and I'm convinced we're in for a long decline. I'm just thankful I live in a state and part of the country that's actually sane.

im in a new job now; sharing a truck with appalachian working class driverz

trump is the hands down favorite because biden is a communist. newz sourcez are almost excluzeivel fox so the reality they believe is quite biazed.

ive already un-endeared myzelf to two of my coworkers by azserting that trump iz bat shit crazy and not supporting the right wing story line.

itz i terezting because they recite the debunked lies about the election and trumpz behavior, because they dont know theyve been debunked, because only fox is reliable and they ingest nothing else.

Quote from: billy rubin on November 15, 2020, 02:11:00 PM
im in a new job now; sharing a truck with appalachian working class driverz

trump is the hands down favorite because biden is a communist. newz sourcez are almost excluzeivel fox so the reality they believe is quite biazed.

ive already un-endeared myzelf to two of my coworkers by azserting that trump iz bat shit crazy and not supporting the right wing story line.

itz i terezting because they recite the debunked lies about the election and trumpz behavior, because they dont know theyve been debunked, because only fox is reliable and they ingest nothing else.

Welcome to the twilight zone!

I can scarcely fathom that my state voted for Biden. We haven't elected a democratic person in twenty-eight years.

I can hardly believe that there are groups of people celebrating Trump's "second term". Even Faux News acknowledged Biden's win although they are touting that the election was illegitimate. They are going to feel pretty stupid come January 20th.

no tbey wont.

trump will continue to tweet his injusticez

and fox will let himrant

Quote from: billy rubin on November 15, 2020, 08:47:03 PM
no tbey wont.

trump will continue to tweet his injusticez

and fox will let himrant

Actually, Fox is doing bit of a baby push back now. So now Fox is part of the fake media and it's time to move on to OANN.

The former comic strip Pogo contained subtle but brilliant commentary about political and social problems that we live with.  Somewhere on our forum, another member recalled that Pogo said: "we have met the enemy and he is us". 

Last Friday a man came to repair some of the fascia boards on my house.  On completion of the job he was conversational. He pressed the argument that Biden was going to take our guns away from us.  He was pretty adamant with that belief.  The guy was a gun nut who is armed at all times, his wife carries a pistol in her purse, their son and daughter in law all carry concealed weapons to "protect themselves". That man had a large automatic pistol on the dashboard of his big truck.   Sheeesh! WTF is this society coming to?   

Truth to tell I had evil and punishing thoughts about the dangerous ignorant bastard. Does that make me as irrational as he is?   Did I mention that the dude was about 6 foot three inches tall and weighed near 300 pounds. He would definitely not need a gun in a confrontation.  He also had hammers and screwdrivers in his tool kit. sufficient weaponry to forestall most issues I believe.

Another more positive thought........ in another section of this forum, we have some beautiful pictures.  The Squirrel posted some most pleasing pictures of a peaceful and inspiring farmstead.  That is good medicine.  Thank you all for positive thinking.

its an interesting dilemma. i am definitily in favor of certain kinds of gun control, but i carry a concealed weapon when i leave the house and generally have a gun within a few seconds walking distance inside it.

there have been too many close encounters with mass shooters in my life to make me feel comfortable walking around unarmed.

but i think it's abundantly clear that we have a problem in this country with guns in the hands of both nut cases and people who don't have the judgement to know when not to use them. the ex-GI who killed my cousin and two other university professors in a college thesis defense was a nut case. the two neighborhood thugs in georgia who murdered ahmed aubry clearly didn't have the intelligence to be trusted with a gun.

yet we have that thorny issue of the US constitution.

Quote from: Asmodean on November 13, 2020, 12:40:37 PM
You know revolutions..?

Those things where the plebs pick up their pitchforks and usually end up slaughtered in their thousands for years and decades after?

I have nothing against president Trump (The office, as opposed to the man) but I think your analysis is incomplete.

Arrogance and ignorance, perhaps. However, there is also a large Populist (specifically, anti-elitist/anti-System™) component here. How Donald Trump is not one of the elites, or is "one of the good ones," I honestly struggle to understand. Maybe it's the way he talks and walks and tweets..? Regardless, the sentiment was there in 2016, and is still very much so.

One must also consider that economically, Trump's term in office has been kind to a lot of people until the zombie flu, and it's possible that they do not attribute the subsequent fall to the president.

Trump merely has a personality problem that is becoming more mild as time progresses. He has a hard time with criticism---mainly because he may have a lot of "boss complex" left over from being a business type. He's quick to defend and perhaps a bit strong on degrading retaliations.  Bear in mind he's been a boss longer then not, and bosses don't like being questioned. So far though, he's changing slowly after learning that the boss doesn't always know what's best but always knows what he wants. Today's floks haven't the understanding of 'American' according to the old standards, but as with any country national pride is common.
I think today's youngers have racism mixed up with superiority. Racism is a natural concept and part of ones personality. Today racism is more of a weapon against and enemy more then fact.

Dammit OS I must need to change my eye glasses.  I have not observed that Trump has softened his attacks on reality.  Actually, within my limited understanding, he has increased his absurdity by several levels.

He hasn't changed one whit, and his "gang that couldn't sue straight" has lost suits that have made it all the way to the SCotUS (and never should have), even with those justices that he managed to appoint with the Turtle's help. Having set a creature free...one should acknowledge that it wasn't really one's creature, even if one appointed it.

Icarus, you are not wrong.

It looks like more of the GOP is accepting the loss although there are a few stalwarts.

Quote from: Icarus on December 10, 2020, 01:23:21 AM
Dammit OS I must need to change my eye glasses.  I have not observed that Trump has softened his attacks on reality.  Actually, within my limited understanding, he has increased his absurdity by several levels.

Arguing a person's absurdity is futile. Everyone has absurdities. My comment was toward personality, not political agendas. Every person is a psychological fact, and that's the perspective from which I see a person/people. I was aware during my comment that I may be dealing with realities. Not intending to deal in realities of others I chanced the comment. I'll have to leave it there as I wasn't questioning anyone's concepts of reality. :-)

On topic, the article below makes a good case for authoritarian minority rule being a core drive of the current US Republican Party. The shouts of "voter fraud" and "stolen election" are a pose--a significant part of the country is larping as delusional loons. I think there are many true believers among them though, and some who've really mastered ignoring cognitive dissonance in the past four years. Their Dear Leader's shifting stances on any given topic give them plenty of practice with that. There are some as well who are perfectly aware of what a hideous failure Trump is as a president, but nonetheless prefer him as president rather than any Democrat.

Even so, I believe she accurately describes a particular element of the Trumpist demographic.

"Trump voters don't really believe Biden stole the election — but they do want a coup" | Salon (https://www.salon.com/2020/12/09/trump-voters-dont-really-believe-biden-stole-the-election---but-they-do-want-a-coup/)

QuoteMany of their long-standing beliefs don't hold up to modern moral standards or rational scrutiny. Rather than give up those beliefs, however, Republicans have developed a series of disingenuous gambits, conspiracy theories and trolling tactics to derail conversations, sow confusion and otherwise distract those who would challenge their indefensible ideology.

Of course, it's morally indefensible to come right out and say you care more about keeping your gas guzzler than protecting the planet. So, instead, conservatives claim to be "skeptical" of climate science, wasting their interlocutor's time by forcing them to prove, over and over and over and over again, that climate change is real. Similarly, open contempt for women's rights is hard to argue, so instead, conservatives will claim concern for "fetal life" to justify support for forced childbirth — even though none of their other policy preferences point to concern about the wellbeing of children, much less fetuses.

Poll numbers showing that Republican voters "believe" that Trump lost the election are more of the same.

Conservatives know better than to openly argue that Democratic votes shouldn't be counted. So instead they concoct this elaborate conspiracy theory, painting themselves as the victims of voter fraud in order to justify an illegal effort to steal the election. The current situation is similar to the last time there was a widespread conspiracy theory aimed at delegitimizing a duly elected Democratic president. During Barack Obama's presidency, polling showed that large numbers of Republicans, often a majority, expressed "skepticism" that Obama was a natural-born citizen and therefore legally eligible to be president. As is the case now, Trump was a ringleader in pushing this "birther" conspiracy theory, helping to mainstream claims that Obama's presidency was illegitimate.

But did Republican voters really believe that Obama was born in Kenya? Or was it just a cover story for their real but unspeakable racist opposition to a Black man being president?

A 2014 study by Stanford researchers suggests strongly (https://journalistsresource.org/studies/politics/ads-public-opinion/misunderstanding-birtherism-flawed-survey-wording-research-analysis/) that for most birthers the conspiracy theory was bad faith and not a sincere error. The researchers compared different polls and found that how the poll questions were worded made a huge difference in conservative adherence to birtherism. When pollsters reminded respondents that only "natural-born" citizens can become president, nearly 60% of Republican voters readily denied Obama's citizenship. But when polls framed it as a test of knowledge of facts, by asking respondents where Obama was born, only 31% of conservatives espoused birther beliefs. These findings suggest that most conservatives weren't confused about where Obama was born. The conspiracy theory was just a way to express racist beliefs about the inherent illegitimacy of Black leaders by asking "questions" about Obama's birth certificate.

[Continues . . . (https://www.salon.com/2020/12/09/trump-voters-dont-really-believe-biden-stole-the-election---but-they-do-want-a-coup/)]

Quote from: Recusant on December 11, 2020, 05:12:25 AM
On topic, the article below makes a good case for authoritarian minority rule being a core drive of the current US Republican Party. The shouts of "voter fraud" and "stolen election" are a pose--a significant part of the country is larping as delusional loons. I think there are many true believers among them though, and some who've really mastered ignoring cognitive dissonance in the past four years. Their Dear Leader's shifting stances on any given topic give them plenty of practice with that. There are some as well who are perfectly aware of what a hideous failure Trump is as a president, but nonetheless prefer him as president rather than any Democrat.

Even so, I believe she accurately describes a particular element of the Trumpist demographic.

"Trump voters don't really believe Biden stole the election — but they do want a coup" | Salon (https://www.salon.com/2020/12/09/trump-voters-dont-really-believe-biden-stole-the-election---but-they-do-want-a-coup/)

QuoteMany of their long-standing beliefs don't hold up to modern moral standards or rational scrutiny. Rather than give up those beliefs, however, Republicans have developed a series of disingenuous gambits, conspiracy theories and trolling tactics to derail conversations, sow confusion and otherwise distract those who would challenge their indefensible ideology.

Of course, it's morally indefensible to come right out and say you care more about keeping your gas guzzler than protecting the planet. So, instead, conservatives claim to be "skeptical" of climate science, wasting their interlocutor's time by forcing them to prove, over and over and over and over again, that climate change is real. Similarly, open contempt for women's rights is hard to argue, so instead, conservatives will claim concern for "fetal life" to justify support for forced childbirth — even though none of their other policy preferences point to concern about the wellbeing of children, much less fetuses.

Poll numbers showing that Republican voters "believe" that Trump lost the election are more of the same.

Conservatives know better than to openly argue that Democratic votes shouldn't be counted. So instead they concoct this elaborate conspiracy theory, painting themselves as the victims of voter fraud in order to justify an illegal effort to steal the election. The current situation is similar to the last time there was a widespread conspiracy theory aimed at delegitimizing a duly elected Democratic president. During Barack Obama's presidency, polling showed that large numbers of Republicans, often a majority, expressed "skepticism" that Obama was a natural-born citizen and therefore legally eligible to be president. As is the case now, Trump was a ringleader in pushing this "birther" conspiracy theory, helping to mainstream claims that Obama's presidency was illegitimate.

But did Republican voters really believe that Obama was born in Kenya? Or was it just a cover story for their real but unspeakable racist opposition to a Black man being president?

A 2014 study by Stanford researchers suggests strongly (https://journalistsresource.org/studies/politics/ads-public-opinion/misunderstanding-birtherism-flawed-survey-wording-research-analysis/) that for most birthers the conspiracy theory was bad faith and not a sincere error. The researchers compared different polls and found that how the poll questions were worded made a huge difference in conservative adherence to birtherism. When pollsters reminded respondents that only "natural-born" citizens can become president, nearly 60% of Republican voters readily denied Obama's citizenship. But when polls framed it as a test of knowledge of facts, by asking respondents where Obama was born, only 31% of conservatives espoused birther beliefs. These findings suggest that most conservatives weren't confused about where Obama was born. The conspiracy theory was just a way to express racist beliefs about the inherent illegitimacy of Black leaders by asking "questions" about Obama's birth certificate.

[Continues . . . (https://www.salon.com/2020/12/09/trump-voters-dont-really-believe-biden-stole-the-election---but-they-do-want-a-coup/)]

There has been talk of a coup recently and Trump being advised to declare martial law. That would test our democracy if it somehow came to pass.

(https://i.imgur.com/nsbaj2t.jpg)

^ too often the sad truth........