The loss of liberty is a far greater evil than the loss of life. The religious speak of the freedom to worship as they wish but only think of themselves. Will we ever achieve "absolute freedom" from them, or is it an impossible dream?
Now this one right here is something I can, and have half a mind to, talk about at considerable length.
There is such a thing as absolute freedom. It exists in any world of one. It is a lonely place, if implemented.
Liberty, liberty and death or liberty in death - it's all a matter of compromises. When two individuals have an area of interaction, they will eventually have to establish ways and practices for their interactions. It may be that the strong will dictate to the weak, or that they will achieve a give-and-take barter system or something else entirely. Whatever it is, it will limit their individual freedoms in so far as those specific interactions are concerned. Now, expand the universe of two to a society of thousands to billions. That's a lot of points of interaction. A lot of choices to be made, forced into or forced upon others.
Thus, life vs. liberty is not as binary a proposition as the likes of Henry might try to sell it, if looked upon broadly. After all, self-determination for a nation is something different than that for one of its subjects. Besides, it all "depends." for instance, there are some freedoms a lot of people will happily give up for the preservation of life - or even for a small measure of comfort. A lot of freedoms, in fact. Even self-determination, if it comes to that. There are those who would choose slavery over "greater hardship," never mind death, giving us whole industries in some parts of the world, running on debt bondage.
One can discuss it in the abstract terms of "greater evil," but generally speaking, people want to live. Having secured that - or been secured it for, they start broadening their ambitions.
So, how does one maximise freedom for the individual without losing social cohesion to the degree of a Mad Max universe..? If I knew that, I'd probably run for office of some sort on that platform. For now, pointing out that sometimes there really ought not be a law will have to suffice.
There is a lot more to say here... Might come back to it and expand my own version of "On Liberty."
sartre had sonething to say aboutbthis
Absolute freedom incorporates both doing good and evil.
Quote from: Old Seer on April 24, 2023, 02:46:19 PMAbsolute freedom incorporates both doing good and evil.
Or has no regard for either. I suppose one is a subset of the other though, as one may very well incorporate something that way.
Quote from: billy rubin on April 24, 2023, 02:43:04 PMsartre had sonething to say aboutbthis
What did he say, billy? In the end, he admitted to himself, using words, that words were not enough. This much I know, the man had a way with words.
Quote from: Old Seer on April 24, 2023, 02:46:19 PMAbsolute freedom incorporates both doing good and evil.
Doing evil for good reasons leaves us only with a bad conscience which is never freedom.
To me, absolute freedom smacks of confirmation bias.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." What we do to each other is always good with a touch of evil.
Liberty is to die for. We all die.
Erasmus praised folly, for from folly comes glory. The tragedy is that such is life, such is comedy.
Eternal Recurrence. There's no escaping the past, except by changing our minds. Small changes are incremental.
Man simply is. - Jean-Paul Sartre
God bless that Catholic bastard.
Liberty makes everything as clear as mud. "Dust to dust," the rest is mud.
Quote from: MarcusA on April 24, 2023, 09:59:27 PMMan simply is. - Jean-Paul Sartre
God bless that Catholic bastard.
Yeah, I miss the days when some things could "just be."
It's a rhetorical lament - there have not been such days in my memory. Take the abovementioned man as an example. Religions have all sorts of more-or-less divine reasons for that man to be. Biology has them bees and them flowers. Also sex. Hot and steamy sex. Still, one seldom gets the answer as to
why a man is. Personally, I think it's an invalid question. "What is the cause of a man?"
Why assumes motives that may or may not have been there to begin with and may or may not have persisted, changed or unchanged, until the moment of asking.
Quote from: Asmodean on April 25, 2023, 11:25:59 AMQuote from: MarcusA on April 24, 2023, 09:59:27 PMMan simply is. - Jean-Paul Sartre
God bless that Catholic bastard.
Yeah, I miss the days when some things could "just be."
It's a rhetorical lament - there have not been such days in my memory. Take the abovementioned man as an example. Religions have all sorts of more-or-less divine reasons for that man to be. Biology has them bees and them flowers. Also sex. Hot and steamy sex. Still, one seldom gets the answer as to why a man is. Personally, I think it's an invalid question. "What is the cause of a man?" Why assumes motives that may or may not have been there to begin with and may or may not have persisted, changed or unchanged, until the moment of asking.
Why am I who I am? The cause and effect seems to me to be choice.
It's an equation with far too many variables to handle. Yes, a lot of it is your choices, and those of others, reflected upon you in different ways.
In a deterministic universe, you are as you are because "the first proto-matter did thus," and the rest is the distribution of energy. Assuming a model more workable from the perspective of a human life, the "larger" you is the sum of every choice, event and interaction that led to your life and those that affected its course.
This answer is not to The Big Why, however. It answers a question of lesser scope; "How did I become who and what I am today," vs. "Why do I exist?" The more honest answers to the latter are... Less-than-satisfying. Perhaps the least satisfying is "You are." There is no why, really.
Quote from: Asmodean on April 25, 2023, 02:04:28 PMIt's an equation with far too many variables to handle. Yes, a lot of it is your choices, and those of others, reflected upon you in different ways.
In a deterministic universe, you are as you are because "the first proto-matter did thus," and the rest is the distribution of energy. Assuming a model more workable from the perspective of a human life, the "larger" you is the sum of every choice, event and interaction that led to your life and those that affected its course.
This answer is not to The Big Why, however. It answers a question of lesser scope; "How did I become who and what I am today," vs. "Why do I exist?" The more honest answers to the latter are... Less-than-satisfying. Perhaps the least satisfying is "You are." There is no why, really.
All variables direct our choices, but in the end, reason rules.
In so far as it is the method used to put at least some such variables into an understandable model.
If anything can be said to "really" rule... I propose entropy. On the scale of human life and the cosmic scale alike.
Quote from: Asmodean on April 26, 2023, 07:56:38 AMIn so far as it is the method used to put at least some such variables into an understandable model.
If anything can be said to "really" rule... I propose entropy. On the scale of human life and the cosmic scale alike.
Death is not the last thing to consider here.
How are we to live? One's freedom is another's prison.
Death is usually the last thing anyone does.
We must live in the knowledge that we will die one day but we must not let it worry us into regretting being born.
Being born, makes me regret being born.
Quote from: No one on April 28, 2023, 10:31:19 PMBeing born, makes me regret being born.
Well, you have to be alive to regret anything.
Ain't that a shame, you have to experience life, to realize just how fucking awful it is
Quote from: No one on April 28, 2023, 11:14:59 PMAin't that a shame, you have to experience life, to realize just how fucking awful it is
It's better than not having existed at all.
Vehemently disagree.
Quote from: No one on April 28, 2023, 11:22:53 PMVehemently disagree.
So, why are you still living?
Mushrooms.
Plus, all that baby blood has made me immortal.
Quote from: No one on April 29, 2023, 12:15:51 PMMushrooms.
Plus, all that baby blood has made me immortal.
What a waste given your self confessed hatred of life! :rofl:
Only specific life.
...Namely your own? :grin:
More than anything.
...Thus bringing us full circle to;
Quote from: Tank on April 29, 2023, 01:22:58 PMWhat a waste given your self confessed hatred of life! :rofl:
8)
I feel like we've only come 312 degrees.
Hey! Them's The Asmo's nits to pick!
...The outrage! :rant1:
...And it's 327,079 degrees. :smilenod:
Even the Satanic outpourings of a deranged mind are allowable in the safety of the net.