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Closet Creationists? You Never Know!

Started by Always Amused, October 10, 2011, 07:19:08 PM

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Always Amused

Ok, I live in the Bible belt and know the polls on how many people believe the earth could be less than 10,000 years old. But I am still amazed when people who are very educated, intelligent, and practical in other matters totally throw away that logic when it comes to religion and teaching religion to their children. Not fundamentalists, but the so-called "liberal" Christians.

I recently found out someone I know is a creationist, and was shocked. Really, you would never suspect it from their education, abilities, and everyday conversation. And I know the ministers in that person's  church subscribe to theistic evolution over a long time period, not the "God did it in six days and then popped open a beer and rested on the seventh day" view.

I guess, these same ministers, who know the facts about when the gospels were written and how many of today's orthodox doctrines arose centuries later don't want to rock the boat and shake up people's faith, so they never mention the possibility of an allegorical interpretation of  any of these stories. Better having the congregation in ignorant bliss, I suppose.
"...as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable."      Thomas Henry Huxley

Tank

I suppose this just goes to show how well (and how far) some people are willing to compartmentalise their world view.

Oh, BTW AA I merged your nutrino post with the main thread.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

DeterminedJuliet

I think my Dad is a creationist. I don't know how old he thinks the world is, but I've heard the whole "we didn't come from monkies!" thing from him. He is a university educated banker, so yeah, education isn't a guarantee.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 10, 2011, 10:10:31 PM
I think my Dad is a creationist. I don't know how old he thinks the world is, but I've heard the whole "we didn't come from monkies!" thing from him. He is a university educated banker, so yeah, education isn't a guarantee.

I think this is where we get into things believed for comfort, not reason.  I once knew a very intelligent woman who simply couldn't stomach the idea of being related to apes, it was so revolting to her that she refused accept that humans are primates and that was all there was to it.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Tank

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 10:15:25 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 10, 2011, 10:10:31 PM
I think my Dad is a creationist. I don't know how old he thinks the world is, but I've heard the whole "we didn't come from monkies!" thing from him. He is a university educated banker, so yeah, education isn't a guarantee.

I think this is where we get into things believed for comfort, not reason.  I once knew a very intelligent woman who simply couldn't stomach the idea of being related to apes, it was so revolting to her that she refused accept that humans are primates and that was all there was to it.
I'm gobsmacked at this sort of denial.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Whitney

Part of the issue is it is very possible to have an advanced degree yet never have stepped foot in a biology classroom (aside fro High School bio 101...which we all know isn't always taught properly).  I didn't even take bio in college...I don't like dissecting things and have moderate allergy to the formaldehyde (one of those people who starts feeling light headed after exposure) .

Always Amused

Quote from: Whitney on October 10, 2011, 11:25:45 PM
I didn't even take bio in college...

Unfortunately I did - at a fundamentalist university. Along with some type of earth science survey which was mainly young earth creationist propaganda. It was when the yec movement was just really gaining ground in the 70s and my professor leaned heavily on The Genesis Flood by Morris and Whitcomb and other such works. Man, they really packaged this stuff, and then went around churches to sell it. By the time these kids hit the science classroom, thy has "learned" all they needed to know about science from their preacher!

Guess that is why I am shocked when I see it being swallowed by those attending well-regarded secular state and private universities.
"...as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable."      Thomas Henry Huxley

Norfolk And Chance

Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 10:20:25 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 10:15:25 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 10, 2011, 10:10:31 PM
I think my Dad is a creationist. I don't know how old he thinks the world is, but I've heard the whole "we didn't come from monkies!" thing from him. He is a university educated banker, so yeah, education isn't a guarantee.

I think this is where we get into things believed for comfort, not reason.  I once knew a very intelligent woman who simply couldn't stomach the idea of being related to apes, it was so revolting to her that she refused accept that humans are primates and that was all there was to it.
I'm gobsmacked at this sort of denial.

I wonder how she would cope with the fact that we share 60% of our genome with bananas? Not well, I suspect.
Reality is the stuff that doesn't go away when you stop believing in it ~ Matt Dillahunty

Crow

Quote from: Always Amused on October 10, 2011, 11:52:54 PM
Quote from: Whitney on October 10, 2011, 11:25:45 PM
I didn't even take bio in college...

Unfortunately I did - at a fundamentalist university. Along with some type of earth science survey which was mainly young earth creationist propaganda. It was when the yec movement was just really gaining ground in the 70s and my professor leaned heavily on The Genesis Flood by Morris and Whitcomb and other such works. Man, they really packaged this stuff, and then went around churches to sell it. By the time these kids hit the science classroom, thy has "learned" all they needed to know about science from their preacher!

Guess that is why I am shocked when I see it being swallowed by those attending well-regarded secular state and private universities.

Jeez I had no idea that this sort of thing was being taught in further education. Just had to do a check if its the same in the UK, seems it is. Was the module actually called biology?
Retired member.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 10:20:25 PM
I'm gobsmacked at this sort of denial.

You and me both, but I guess we all have areas were intellect is just no match for emotion.

Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 11, 2011, 12:34:26 AM
I wonder how she would cope with the fact that we share 60% of our genome with bananas? Not well, I suspect.

I'm having trouble dealing with it -- I'm going to feel like a cannibal the next time I eat a banana!
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Tank

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 11, 2011, 03:20:08 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 10:20:25 PM
I'm gobsmacked at this sort of denial.

You and me both, but I guess we all have areas were intellect is just no match for emotion.

Undoubtedly there are times when emotion will win out over reason, for evidence of that look at the divorce rate.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Always Amused

#11
Quote from: Crow on October 11, 2011, 12:44:48 AM
Jeez I had no idea that this sort of thing was being taught in further education. Just had to do a check if its the same in the UK, seems it is. Was the module actually called biology?

Yes, it was called General Biology. Again, young earth creationism is only taught in fundamentalist universities. See this list for some:
http://www.nwcreation.net/colleges.html

However, even among those in public institutions, where evolution is taught, there are still a large number who are Creationists. This poll shows the evidence.



For quite a while, the pressure has been on to teach intelligent design in US and UK:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/21/religion.highereducation


"...as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable."      Thomas Henry Huxley

OldGit

Seems that in the UK it's the muslims who are pushing creationism more than the christians.
Either way, it's terrifying.

Tank

Quote from: OldGit on October 12, 2011, 09:35:18 AM
Seems that in the UK it's the muslims who are pushing creationism more than the christians.
Either way, it's terrifying.
The problem facing asian Muslims in the UK is the double wammy of both a race and cultural divide, that leads to the third issue of relative poverty and thus ghettoization. The really big problem is young asian/Muslim men who are lorded in their home and family but despised outside it. This conflict of valuation is very, very dangerous as it leads to disaffection with society of the young man and disaffection of the young man by society. It is a vicious circle.

In the USA it's not such a problem because everybody gets to swear allegience to the flag, so there is a common focus for everybody so people can at least feel they are, as some level, American. I think the policy of multi-culturalism in the UK is a good idea that due to human nature is impractical in the real world.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Fi

That is always really awkward and baffling. I know a lot of perfectly intelligent people who, by all means, have the cognitive tools to ditch religion. But they don't. And they're good people, really good people-- they tell me they worry about me, but for the most part, they don't bring up religion. And I wonder how much they really believe, or what exactly it is they really believe, because if I knew absolutely for sure someone I cared about was hellbound, I wouldn't "agree to disagree." Eternity is serious business.

I think a lot of it is just people rationalizing because they're scared. Christianity especially forces a mindset on you that can be hard to escape, because it has all of these failsafes (the devil is leading you on!). On the rare occasion I debate with my theist friends, the discussion usually ends with them panicking and sticking their head in the sand... and I never get any clear answers out of them. They just "don't want to discuss it anymore."