Ok, I live in the Bible belt and know the polls on how many people believe the earth could be less than 10,000 years old. But I am still amazed when people who are very educated, intelligent, and practical in other matters totally throw away that logic when it comes to religion and teaching religion to their children. Not fundamentalists, but the so-called "liberal" Christians.
I recently found out someone I know is a creationist, and was shocked. Really, you would never suspect it from their education, abilities, and everyday conversation. And I know the ministers in that person's church subscribe to theistic evolution over a long time period, not the "God did it in six days and then popped open a beer and rested on the seventh day" view.
I guess, these same ministers, who know the facts about when the gospels were written and how many of today's orthodox doctrines arose centuries later don't want to rock the boat and shake up people's faith, so they never mention the possibility of an allegorical interpretation of any of these stories. Better having the congregation in ignorant bliss, I suppose.
I suppose this just goes to show how well (and how far) some people are willing to compartmentalise their world view.
Oh, BTW AA I merged your nutrino post with the main thread.
I think my Dad is a creationist. I don't know how old he thinks the world is, but I've heard the whole "we didn't come from monkies!" thing from him. He is a university educated banker, so yeah, education isn't a guarantee.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 10, 2011, 10:10:31 PM
I think my Dad is a creationist. I don't know how old he thinks the world is, but I've heard the whole "we didn't come from monkies!" thing from him. He is a university educated banker, so yeah, education isn't a guarantee.
I think this is where we get into things believed for comfort, not reason. I once knew a very intelligent woman who simply couldn't stomach the idea of being related to apes, it was so revolting to her that she refused accept that humans are primates and that was all there was to it.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 10:15:25 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 10, 2011, 10:10:31 PM
I think my Dad is a creationist. I don't know how old he thinks the world is, but I've heard the whole "we didn't come from monkies!" thing from him. He is a university educated banker, so yeah, education isn't a guarantee.
I think this is where we get into things believed for comfort, not reason. I once knew a very intelligent woman who simply couldn't stomach the idea of being related to apes, it was so revolting to her that she refused accept that humans are primates and that was all there was to it.
I'm gobsmacked at this sort of denial.
Part of the issue is it is very possible to have an advanced degree yet never have stepped foot in a biology classroom (aside fro High School bio 101...which we all know isn't always taught properly). I didn't even take bio in college...I don't like dissecting things and have moderate allergy to the formaldehyde (one of those people who starts feeling light headed after exposure) .
Quote from: Whitney on October 10, 2011, 11:25:45 PM
I didn't even take bio in college...
Unfortunately I did - at a fundamentalist university. Along with some type of earth science survey which was mainly young earth creationist propaganda. It was when the yec movement was just really gaining ground in the 70s and my professor leaned heavily on
The Genesis Flood by Morris and Whitcomb and other such works. Man, they really packaged this stuff, and then went around churches to sell it. By the time these kids hit the science classroom, thy has "learned" all they needed to know about science from their preacher!
Guess that is why I am shocked when I see it being swallowed by those attending well-regarded secular state and private universities.
Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 10:20:25 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 10, 2011, 10:15:25 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 10, 2011, 10:10:31 PM
I think my Dad is a creationist. I don't know how old he thinks the world is, but I've heard the whole "we didn't come from monkies!" thing from him. He is a university educated banker, so yeah, education isn't a guarantee.
I think this is where we get into things believed for comfort, not reason. I once knew a very intelligent woman who simply couldn't stomach the idea of being related to apes, it was so revolting to her that she refused accept that humans are primates and that was all there was to it.
I'm gobsmacked at this sort of denial.
I wonder how she would cope with the fact that we share 60% of our genome with bananas? Not well, I suspect.
Quote from: Always Amused on October 10, 2011, 11:52:54 PM
Quote from: Whitney on October 10, 2011, 11:25:45 PM
I didn't even take bio in college...
Unfortunately I did - at a fundamentalist university. Along with some type of earth science survey which was mainly young earth creationist propaganda. It was when the yec movement was just really gaining ground in the 70s and my professor leaned heavily on The Genesis Flood by Morris and Whitcomb and other such works. Man, they really packaged this stuff, and then went around churches to sell it. By the time these kids hit the science classroom, thy has "learned" all they needed to know about science from their preacher!
Guess that is why I am shocked when I see it being swallowed by those attending well-regarded secular state and private universities.
Jeez I had no idea that this sort of thing was being taught in further education. Just had to do a check if its the same in the UK, seems it is. Was the module actually called biology?
Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 10:20:25 PM
I'm gobsmacked at this sort of denial.
You and me both, but I guess we all have areas were intellect is just no match for emotion.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 11, 2011, 12:34:26 AM
I wonder how she would cope with the fact that we share 60% of our genome with bananas? Not well, I suspect.
I'm having trouble dealing with it -- I'm going to feel like a cannibal the next time I eat a banana!
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 11, 2011, 03:20:08 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 10:20:25 PM
I'm gobsmacked at this sort of denial.
You and me both, but I guess we all have areas were intellect is just no match for emotion.
Undoubtedly there are times when emotion will win out over reason, for evidence of that look at the divorce rate.
Quote from: Crow on October 11, 2011, 12:44:48 AM
Jeez I had no idea that this sort of thing was being taught in further education. Just had to do a check if its the same in the UK, seems it is. Was the module actually called biology?
Yes, it was called General Biology. Again, young earth creationism is only
taught in fundamentalist universities. See this list for some:
http://www.nwcreation.net/colleges.html
However, even among those in public institutions, where evolution is taught, there are still a large number who are Creationists. This poll shows the evidence.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsas-origin.onstreammedia.com%2Forigin%2Fgallupinc%2FGallupSpaces%2FProduction%2FCms%2FPOLL%2Ffcm7gxrmnuk6-fin5xx8ww.gif&hash=c7c9f68a6199c7fd2efa39b1f922451f0f788a76)
For quite a while, the pressure has been on to teach intelligent design in US and UK:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/21/religion.highereducation
Seems that in the UK it's the muslims who are pushing creationism more than the christians.
Either way, it's terrifying.
Quote from: OldGit on October 12, 2011, 09:35:18 AM
Seems that in the UK it's the muslims who are pushing creationism more than the christians.
Either way, it's terrifying.
The problem facing asian Muslims in the UK is the double wammy of both a race and cultural divide, that leads to the third issue of relative poverty and thus ghettoization. The really big problem is young asian/Muslim men who are lorded in their home and family but despised outside it. This conflict of valuation is very, very dangerous as it leads to disaffection with society of the young man and disaffection of the young man by society. It is a vicious circle.
In the USA it's not such a problem because everybody gets to swear allegience to the flag, so there is a common focus for everybody so people can at least feel they are, as some level, American. I think the policy of multi-culturalism in the UK is a good idea that due to human nature is impractical in the real world.
That is always really awkward and baffling. I know a lot of perfectly intelligent people who, by all means, have the cognitive tools to ditch religion. But they don't. And they're good people, really good people-- they tell me they worry about me, but for the most part, they don't bring up religion. And I wonder how much they really believe, or what exactly it is they really believe, because if I knew absolutely for sure someone I cared about was hellbound, I wouldn't "agree to disagree." Eternity is serious business.
I think a lot of it is just people rationalizing because they're scared. Christianity especially forces a mindset on you that can be hard to escape, because it has all of these failsafes (the devil is leading you on!). On the rare occasion I debate with my theist friends, the discussion usually ends with them panicking and sticking their head in the sand... and I never get any clear answers out of them. They just "don't want to discuss it anymore."
Much of it has to do with social conditioning, submission to perceived authority, fear of being ostracized by family, friends and other social groups and the overall tendency for people to conform to the majority view of the social sphere in which they find themselves. Evidence and education usually have very little to do with it unfortunately. Just because someone has the ability or skills doesn't necessarily mean that they will use them. Just because I have a shed full of tools doesn't mean I'll get off my ass and build something :D
Quote from: Fi on November 22, 2011, 06:28:34 AM
That is always really awkward and baffling. I know a lot of perfectly intelligent people who, by all means, have the cognitive tools to ditch religion. But they don't. And they're good people, really good people-- they tell me they worry about me, but for the most part, they don't bring up religion. And I wonder how much they really believe, or what exactly it is they really believe, because if I knew absolutely for sure someone I cared about was hellbound, I wouldn't "agree to disagree." Eternity is serious business.
I think a lot of it is just people rationalizing because they're scared. Christianity especially forces a mindset on you that can be hard to escape, because it has all of these failsafes (the devil is leading you on!). On the rare occasion I debate with my theist friends, the discussion usually ends with them panicking and sticking their head in the sand... and I never get any clear answers out of them. They just "don't want to discuss it anymore."
I think that's kind of sad, actually. People being that afraid...
Anyways, back to the topic: let's face it, most people are both scientifically illirerate, generally ignorant and know less than high school level beyond their specialised areas. Not only that, but they don't apply any measure of critical thinking to their relgious beliefs, even people who can't be as easily dismissed as stupid.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 11, 2011, 03:20:08 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 10:20:25 PM
I'm gobsmacked at this sort of denial.
You and me both, but I guess we all have areas were intellect is just no match for emotion.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 11, 2011, 12:34:26 AM
I wonder how she would cope with the fact that we share 60% of our genome with bananas? Not well, I suspect.
I'm having trouble dealing with it -- I'm going to feel like a cannibal the next time I eat a banana!
I am eating one right now ;___; so yummy.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on November 25, 2011, 08:05:45 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 11, 2011, 03:20:08 AM
I'm having trouble dealing with it -- I'm going to feel like a cannibal the next time I eat a banana!
I am eating one right now ;___; so yummy.
When I read that, I immediately flashed on another post about cooking Indians for Thanksgiving dinner -- it gave me a weird turn, I don't mind telling you!