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art and design

billy rubin

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art and design
« on: May 05, 2021, 05:36:51 PM »
Art has to move you and design does not, unless it’s a good design for a bus.

- David Hockney

hermes, you posted ^^^this, and it's been a qu7estion i have wondered at for many years.

what is art, and how does it differ from design? especially bad art and good design?

for example, this is almost meaningless to me:



and this is not:



this is art, to me:



and this is design:



there's all sorts of crossover in art and design, because lots of designers are artists, and lots of artists are also designers.

but what is it that makes something art?

this is art, to me:


and this is design



there's all kinds of other examples. art is closely aligned with elegance, in my mind, and im not sure why. to me, seeing something designed in the most utterly simple way is a view into the essence of something, whether its a logical argument, a taxonomic key for identifying the skulls of american mammals, or a set of curving lines suggesting a human figure.

where does art become distinct from design? are they really distinct? can there be art without an audience?

sometimes desgn is intended to imitate art, by copying a few elements in or adding rococco that didn't need to be there. maybe then its still art, but it becomes bad art and bad design, in my mind


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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: art and design
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2021, 09:50:17 PM »
Like beauty, art is in the eye of the beholder.  It you think it's art, it is. If a whole bunch of people think it's art, then it becomes famous and valuable.  If only a few think it's art, you'll probably never see it.  It's a matter of taste, like music, wine and women (or men).   The only thing that matters is whether or not you like it, or whether it gives you pleasure or insight or some other feeling.

Design implies purpose and function. Something can be both art and design, or one or the other. If it has any intended function, it's design, but it could also be art.

billy rubin

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Re: art and design
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2021, 11:18:04 PM »
i guess im looking for a more fundamental defintion. maybe youre right though, thatthere iusn't one.

its like music. i m not sure i know what "music" is.

perhaps desaiogn is purposeful creation, and art is design intended to evoke emotion, like hermes said


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Bad Penny II

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Re: art and design
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2021, 12:45:06 AM »
Art has to move you and design does not, unless it’s a good design for a bus.

- David Hockney

hermes, you posted ^^^this, and it's been a qu7estion i have wondered at for many years.

what is art, and how does it differ from design? especially bad art and good design?

for example, this is almost meaningless to me:





Geez Billy, you don't get it?
But it's like the guy painted it just for you...

"Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive"

hermes2015

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Re: art and design
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2021, 05:11:46 AM »
The short answer is that there is no infallible definition of art.

The long answer is that the best we can do is rely on consensus, meaning the opinions of experts in the arts. They are the art academics, serious (usually wealthy) collectors, and gallery directors. A good example is when Peggy Guggenheim first recognised the genius of Jackson Pollock, way ahead of everyone else. Of course, they are not infallible.

The rest of us usually fall back on "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like." This approach, although branded as philistine, has its merits — why shouldn't we only allow art that makes us feel good (commonly called chocolate box art) into our homes?

I'm afraid things aren't any easier when it comes to design. The contemporary attitude is that we should judge design by the dictums "less is more", "honesty to materials", "form follows function", etc. These are also just opinions, not absolute truths. Let's not forget another statement by the great Dieter Rams: "Limit everything to the essential, but do not remove the poetry."

The Victorians followed different principles, with some exceptions like William Morris: "Have nothing in your house that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful."

My personal preference is for the International Style and the principles taught at the Bauhaus. But what do I know? I'm only an organic chemist.
“Who is to say that pleasure is useless?”
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: art and design
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2021, 01:58:45 PM »
Art has to move you and design does not, unless it’s a good design for a bus.

- David Hockney

hermes, you posted ^^^this, and it's been a qu7estion i have wondered at for many years.

what is art, and how does it differ from design? especially bad art and good design?

for example, this is almost meaningless to me:





Geez Billy, you don't get it?
But it's like the guy painted it just for you...

"Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive"

I see stock brokers on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange during a sudden stock market crash.

Bad Penny II

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Re: art and design
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2021, 03:30:08 PM »
Art has to move you and design does not, unless it’s a good design for a bus.

- David Hockney

hermes, you posted ^^^this, and it's been a qu7estion i have wondered at for many years.

what is art, and how does it differ from design? especially bad art and good design?

for example, this is almost meaningless to me:





Geez Billy, you don't get it?
But it's like the guy painted it just for you...

"Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive"

I see stock brokers on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange during a sudden stock market crash.

Do you see a date?

billy rubin

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Re: art and design
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2021, 03:33:53 PM »

The Victorians followed different principles, with some exceptions like William Morris: "Have nothing in your house that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful."


i knew a quaker once whose son was a buddhist.

he said the son decluttered his life every five years by getting rid of his possessions and starting with more or less nothing.

im afraid too much of my life is spent tending to a dusty museum of stuff. but i have limits imposed to my philosophy by repeated floods. i refuse to be the custodian of important things--my life is a history of destruction. i don't own anything i cannot walk away from.

but i guess i'm still looking for some sort of underlying reality to art and design. maybe not in the cosmic sense, but in an evolutionary one, local, that is. i don't havce a problem considering biology as the source of design, with nothing any deeper than that. but is art and design limnited to humans?

so i'm wondering about creativity in non-humans. i don't know of anything as a source except instinct, but maybe thats what i should be looking for. can non-humans demonstrate aesthetics?



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billy rubin

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Re: art and design
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2021, 03:42:42 PM »
Art has to move you and design does not, unless it’s a good design for a bus.

- David Hockney

hermes, you posted ^^^this, and it's been a qu7estion i have wondered at for many years.

what is art, and how does it differ from design? especially bad art and good design?

for example, this is almost meaningless to me:





Geez Billy, you don't get it?
But it's like the guy painted it just for you...

"Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive"

that's really way too accurate, penny


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Bad Penny II

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Re: art and design
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2021, 04:18:02 PM »
so i'm wondering about creativity in non-humans. i don't know of anything as a source except instinct, but maybe thats what i should be looking for. can non-humans demonstrate aesthetics?

Seriously? there is natural selection and there is sexual selection.
Have you seen the ridiculous lengths male birds of paradise have been forced to go to get even the merest most optimistic possibility of a fuck?

And there's birdsong.

And maybe for intelligent fish like dolphins their movement is as much art as that of the Bolshoi folk
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 04:38:44 PM by Bad Penny II »

billy rubin

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Re: art and design
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2021, 05:16:32 PM »
well thats a very good point

i have a very noisy tom turkey outside that flashes his butt at the chickens whenever he walks by them


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Tank

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Re: art and design
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2021, 07:59:55 AM »
so i'm wondering about creativity in non-humans. i don't know of anything as a source except instinct, but maybe thats what i should be looking for. can non-humans demonstrate aesthetics?

Seriously? there is natural selection and there is sexual selection.
Have you seen the ridiculous lengths male birds of paradise have been forced to go to get even the merest most optimistic possibility of a fuck?

And there's birdsong.

And maybe for intelligent fish like dolphins their movement is as much art as that of the Bolshoi folk

*twitch* a dolphin is a mammal not a fish *twitch*
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Bad Penny II

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Re: art and design
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2021, 10:02:57 AM »
so i'm wondering about creativity in non-humans. i don't know of anything as a source except instinct, but maybe thats what i should be looking for. can non-humans demonstrate aesthetics?

Seriously? there is natural selection and there is sexual selection.
Have you seen the ridiculous lengths male birds of paradise have been forced to go to get even the merest most optimistic possibility of a fuck?

And there's birdsong.

And maybe for intelligent fish like dolphins their movement is as much art as that of the Bolshoi folk

*twitch* a dolphin is a mammal not a fish *twitch*


Don't be ridiculous, the pope wouldn't let you eat them on Friday if they were mammals.