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I've recently encountered http://www.facebook.com/pages/International-Burn-A-Koran-Day/134718123226530this page, and I'd like to discuss it. I personally found it horrifically offensive, and stated as such in the page. (I'm the kid who said burning books is a the worst sin imaginable) and flagged it. How do you guys feel about it?

I feel pretty much the same way as you do. Even though I've never read the book (probably never will considering I'm a bibliophile and have a list miles long of books I'd rather read) and don't agree with what I've learned of its premises, I can't support book banning in the slightest.

I remember seeing a list of banned books when I was in high school.  I don't remember most of them but I do remember vividly seeing the Marquis de Sade's "120 Days of Sodom" and  Oscar Wilde's "The Importance of Being Ernest".  Even though a friend claims he saw Darwin's "Origin of Species" on there I don't recall but wouldn't doubt it - it was rural south Texas in the late 80's and early 90's.

I think it's silly to burn books even if they are thought to be "horrific" or the material to be "sick".  Where one person sees sick and disturbing, I may see an interesting read.  I'm sure if it were a KJV Bible burning there'd be all sorts of hell raised about it.

I think it was the German poet Heine who said something along the lines of those who burn books will one day burn bodies.

There are no circumstances where I would support the burning of any book, even if I did not agree with its content.

Banning and burning books can under no circumstances be justified. Here in Germany, we've seen where burning books leads to.  For those people who have second thought about this topic, I recommend them to read Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451" or George Orwell's "1984".

Quote"We believe attempts to censor ideas to which we have access--whether in books, magazines, plays, works of art, television, movies or song--are not simply isolated instances of harassment by diverse special-interest groups. Rather they are part of a growing pattern of increasing intolerance which is changing the fabric of America. . .

"Censorship cannot eliminate evil. It can only kill freedom. We believe Americans have the right to buy, stores have the right to sell, authors have the right to write and publishers have the right to publish Constitutionally-protected material. Period."

Excerpt from a letter to 28 newspapers, signed by Ed Morrow, president, American Booksellers Assn. and Harry Hoffman, president, Walden Book Co., Inc. (1990).

I think it's lame.  Disregarding the book-burning issue, which has been dealt with above, the idea reeks of intellectual insecurity.  The only banned ideas are the threatening ones.  A robust ideology suffers questioning.

Burning books seems primitive to me.

A pointless and mindless example of tribal tit-for-tat behaviour that does nothing but show up the book burners as epsilon semi-morons.

Quote from: "Beefaice"Do you think it is okay to burn holy books?

Only if stranded and in need of heat. Otherwise, no!

I wanted to add that the fact that it's a "holy book" doesn't bother me any more than if it were any other book and honestly, I feel like they do have a right to participate in that kind of protest if they want.  I just don't think it's an effective form of protest because I personally see burning a book as a negative reflection of the person doing the burning and not the book itself.  When someone burns a book I inevitably think - well, that person must be scared of whatever is in that book.  How weird/unfortunate/archaic.

Burning something that may lead others to disagree with what you have to say...yea...sounds like something Hitler did. While the bible may be the biggest, most vile piece of bunk on this side of the River Styx I don't think it has any reason to be burned. As stated earlier, unless you need it for heat, don't burn it. I think the idea of burning the Koran is vile. The sad part is that, I wouldn't do anything to stop them either, because it is a form of expression, is not stopping anyone from practicing that religion, and as long as they have the proper permits, they are doing nothing illegal. The one part of being an Atheist I truly dislike...I have to defend idiots, or be called a hypocrite.

Oh my god those people are retarded! "Islam is of the Devil!"  If there is one thing I can't stand, it's a Religious Theist who thinks that their religion is any better than another Religious Theist!

I'm just going to come right out and say this: Islam is 10x better than Christianity!

Now that that's done, people CAN burn books, because they have freedom of speech, but they shouldn't.  Everyone knows that Book Burning is synonymous with Nazism, and when you do things synonymous with Nazism you associate yourself with a dangerous amount of hate.  I can't stand seeing people carve swastikas into tables, or Seig Heiling to a friend (Both of which are surprisingly common in rural Oklahoma).  It's really terrifying to think about what the Nazis actually stood for, and how close they came to accomplishing it.

So I find it deeply disturbing that anyone would want to resemble the Nazi movement in any way whatsoever.  And the Hypocrisy of Christians burning the Qu'ran just makes it even worse.  No, it's not okay to burn holy books, because that's an attempt to fight hate with hate.  I doesn't work, hate only breeds more hate. You need to drive darkness with light, not more darkness.

Islam is to Christianity what Chevy is to Oldsmobile.

I say burn them all, but only if the Christians are holding them at the time!!!

Of course I'm kidding... I think that a lot of the so called "Holy Books" are very valuable to society as literature.  Take the bible, it's a good read of fiction, and I think to lose it would be unfortunate.  I think of the bible like I think of Harry Potter, read it but know it's fiction.

Quote from: "Martin TK"I say burn them all, but only if the Christians are holding them at the time!!!

Of course I'm kidding... I think that a lot of the so called "Holy Books" are very valuable to society as literature.  Take the bible, it's a good read of fiction, and I think to lose it would be unfortunate.  I think of the bible like I think of Harry Potter, read it but know it's fiction.

As far as fiction goes, the bible is pretty dry.  And just bad, it sends a horrible message.

Mass burning of the bible is unacceptable, but it should go out of style to the point where no one actually reads it anymore.

I recommend putting them in the recycling bin.

joke

But in all honesty, the last thing I want to do is antagonize anybody or piss on their beliefs.

I burn them to keep warm at night

When I stay in hotels I am tempted to take the bible away with me, haven't do it so far.

Quote from: "Tank"When I stay in hotels I am tempted to take the bible away with me, haven't do it so far.

On the Freedom from Religion Foundation website, you can purchase stickers that you can put inside those Gidion Bibles that reads: "Warning! Literal belief in this book may endanger your health and life"  I want some so badly....

Quote from: "Martin TK"

Quote from: "Tank"When I stay in hotels I am tempted to take the bible away with me, haven't do it so far.

On the Freedom from Religion Foundation website, you can purchase stickers that you can put inside those Gidion Bibles that reads: "Warning! Literal belief in this book may endanger your health and life"  I want some so badly....

I want those my self Or something like "contents not confirmed by scientists" or something
I am so gonna use them every time I visit the bookstore

Well boofheads will be boofheads I suppose.
What's the chance of slipping in some bibles printed in a language closer to it's original form.
Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek perhaps.
The Dove Worldians will see this strange, obviously satanic writing and toss them on the pyre.
When someone points out what they've done, they will see the error of their ways and embrace reason.
Or maybe not.

The Sacramento CountyPublic Law Library is having an art exhibition with 63 paintings on display.  One of the paintings show a bible with a poster stripped across the bibles cover. The poster reads: Warning! May impair judgement.  The artist, Jeri Wyrick, said she created the piece after the 2004 presidential election. " I came to the conclusion that there must be something about religious faaith that renders people stupid".

The Pacific Justice Institute; A Sacramento based legal defense group specializing in religious issues, has demanded the the Wyrick painting be removed.  Their spokesperson says; "The purpose of the message is to directly attack and demean the foundation of the Christian faith" He added; "If this had been another faith, there would be outrage". He is probably right because Salmon Rushdie is still lying low and the Danish cartoonist is dead. On the other hand he is expressing some degree of outrage himself, though not of the "hit man" type.

I lifted this bit of news from the local NYT affilliate newspaper, July 24. (for our international friends, Sacramento is the state capitol of California)

Quote from: "Icarus"The Pacific Justice Institute; A Sacramento based legal defense group specializing in religious issues, has demanded the the Wyrick painting be removed.  Their spokesperson says; "The purpose of the message is to directly attack and demean the foundation of the Christian faith" He added; "If this had been another faith, there would be outrage". He is probably right because Salmon Rushdie is still lying low and the Danish cartoonist is dead. On the other hand he is expressing some degree of outrage himself, though not of the "hit man" type.

I lifted this bit of news from the local NYT affilliate newspaper, July 24. (for our international friends, Sacramento is the state capitol of California)

This is akin to the "we don't kill people for this kind of thing like Muslims do so we are both better and right" attitude one finds online a lot.  I've been told that I wouldn't act like I do if I were an atheist in a Muslim country so why don't I move to the Middle East to see how right Christians are.  The implication being that so long as they don't kill people outright any amount of abuse or censorship is their God given right.

I don't think it's a good idea to burn books.  Educate people instead.

The first time I remember getting in trouble with my parents was when I found my brother's Playboy magazines and drew clothes on the ladies.  My parents were really serious about not defacing or destroying books.

They can burn 'em all they want, they'll just look like idiots doing it. Don't they realize that all books are in digital form now? They can't burn the interwebs.

I love books. I love to hold them, smell them, read them. Even if I don't like a book, I would not be okay with destroying it. I find the idea of book burning - no matter what the book - distasteful and immature.

Reminds me of this jackass I dated in high school who took a crucifix off his mom's bedroom wall and set it on fire just to piss her off. Even at fifteen, I thought it was childish (and creepy...and just plain weird), and I don't think this is really much different.

This is a quote of myself, from another website which was discussing the same issue. "Personally I don’t mess around with religious artifacts, except for the stuff on my altar, out of respect.

    I think that what these people are doing is crossing a line, a very dangerous line.

    What they’re doing is gathering a lot of negative energy, taking a book that represents a group of people and their faith, and burning it whilst presumably praying to their god to punish them, or at the very least mess with their free will… This sounds a little bit too much like a dark ritual.

    Either way there’s too many bad vibes bouncing around on 9/11 as it is without these folk pouring gas on the fire.

    I know a good deal of islamic people, and I know for a fact that the ones that are bombing buildings are the same kind of people as these book burners: A loud, angry, crazy minority that takes their faith down a dark path that it was not meant to go."

The burning of "holy books" or any other books is just pure ignorance and disrespect.
You're ruining a product of something, not the actual thing. Not to mention that there are thousands of copies.
If you feel that heavily about something then you should take it out on the author, apparently.

I can understand it in a symbolic sense but otherwise, why bother? It doesn't really achieve anything. The Bible is still a good thing to read if you plan on appreciating any other work of literature, as it is often alluded to. Not to mention reading the hideous thing is a good way to break the spell of Christianity.

Never really thought it was a bad thing.  I burn the bible all the time.  One page at a time.

If you have paid for it and are in full ownership of the paper on which it is printed, it is your right to burn it all you want. I have no more problem with it than with burning flags and the like - if it's your property and you don't risk torching half a neighbourhood in the process, why not..?

Some people might call it a statement. Me, I call it kindling.   (No, not really, but I take no offence when religious, state or other symbols are being destroyed by their rightful owners)

The first thing that popped into my mind about this was there would be a tremendous backlash by Islamic extremists that might harm innocent citizens either here or out of the country.  Then I got to thinking about the troops too.  I think that this burning will result in a lot of anger and perhaps injuries as a result.

I'm not up on defacing or destroying items people consider holy.  It's all wrapped up in too much symbolism.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Islam is to Christianity what Chevy is to Oldsmobile.

nice

Phew, I'm glad someone caught that.  I kinda liked it and the thought of it dying a lonely cyberdeath was unhappy.

The deep irony of the whole controversy over the Quran-burning is wrapped in an Arabic proverb:  "The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon."

Quote from: "Beefaice"If it's in the wrong place, feel free to remove it.

I've recently encountered http://www.facebook.com/pages/International-Burn-A-Koran-Day/134718123226530this page, and I'd like to discuss it. I personally found it horrifically offensive, and stated as such in the page. (I'm the kid who said burning books is a the worst sin imaginable) and flagged it. How do you guys feel about it?

I think it is wrong to burn any holy book even though I am an Atheist. I also think it is dangerous with our troops being in the middle east and all. Plus it only spreads more hate, it does not do anything but cause more problems.

Quote from: "D0NTst0pBELlEViN"I think it is wrong to burn any holy book even though I am an Atheist. I also think it is dangerous with our troops being in the middle east and all. Plus it only spreads more hate, it does not do anything but cause more problems.

Is this because you're sympathetic to those that believe in the holy book, because you think it's wrong to burn any book... or fill in your own answer, don't think I'm trying to fling a false dichotomy on you.

I personally don't care if a few of them are burned as long as the goal is not to get rid of every copy of the book. I also disagree with burning books as a publicity stunt (I'd probably make an exception for a public burning of Atlas Shrugged), but only because I don't like people doing things only for attention and/or personal gain.

Quote from: "Davin"I don't like people doing things only for attention and/or personal gain.

Remind me, will you, what other reasons do people "do things" for..?  

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Davin"I don't like people doing things only for attention and/or personal gain.

Remind me, will you, what other reasons do people "do things" for..?  

For fun, for their job, for love, for hate, to avoid pain, to cause pain... those are at least a few other reasons.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Davin"I don't like people doing things only for attention and/or personal gain.

Remind me, will you, what other reasons do people "do things" for..?  :raised:

Fun, for instance, is very much "personal gain"

Legally, it's our right.
Morally, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Is there a good reason though?  Not reason.
 
Burning holy books is not going to solve the problem.  In order to burn a book, as a corollary, one must purchase it first.  So all book burners are going to do is increase holy book sales.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Asmodean"Remind me, will you, what other reasons do people "do things" for..?  :raised:

Fun, for instance, is very much "personal gain"

I guess that depends on your definition of "personal gain." I take personal gain to mean that the person is gaining something external like cash or a car or spite from others or respect of others or adoration from others, not an internal thing like a feeling of contentment. I don't take having fun as personal gain because the person only feels something that was internally derived, not received something. from an external source. If you feel that personal gain also reflects emotional states then I agree with you, I just don't think that the person is gaining anything from feeling an emotion because it's derived from themselves and what they already had.

Saying that these things necessarily lead to attention seeking and/or personal gain leads you down an assumption trail that disregards that different people may have different motivations. As an example: I do many things for my job that I do not get paid for, and by the small amount of work most of my co-workers do, doesn't even serve to provide job security. The extra bits I do for my job, I do as discreetly as possible, because I would prefer to avoid attention of any kind. There is no personal gain, nor attention seeking for me doing those extra things at work.

I think it's sad that you don't regard emotional enjoyment as personal gain.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I think it's sad that you don't regard emotional enjoyment as personal gain.

I regard emotional enjoyment as positive, but not as something that is gained. Unlike gaining entrance and gaining wealth, gaining emotional enjoyment doesn't appear correct to me. It seems more right to say "I'm enjoying this" rather than "I've obtained enjoyment," "I've gained enjoyment" or "enjoyment has been given to me" (unless the latter three statements are meant poetically).

I am a better person for having good times.  That is gain.

As a librarian, it bothers me when people burn books. Any book, not just the holy variety. I'm a life long reader and book lover and it just strikes me as wrong.

As a citizen of the United States, I believe book burning is covered under the first amendment. I do not like it, but I support anyone's right to do it.

It's never okay to burn any books. Book burning is a symbolic destruction of information. Even if that information is terrible, book burning is anti-knowledge.

If you want to protect Christianity by burning something, maybe choose something like the the Christian flag. Don't burn a cross, though, because people tend to associate that with racism.

A Christian flag?  What, one symbol wasn't enough for them?

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"A Christian flag?  What, one symbol wasn't enough for them?

Are you kidding?  They have symbols for symbols of symbols.
I once went to a Catholic christening, after enduring hours of being assaulted by symbols I noticed a large cockroach in the baptismal font, the symbolism for it was never explained.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.redux.com%2Fimages%2F5235e242a0bc16a666c260f04133fec9%2Fraw&hash=e1508d714e65a0604fd505b98d26debbec720860)

Wow!  I think it is incredible how many people have replied and even more incredible how many are convinced what is "right" and "wrong"  or even as far as what's "a sin".  Keep in mind there's lots of rights and wrongs out there in the world, depending on who you are and at what stage of life you're living in.  There is also more than one right way to do the same thing.  Our viewpoints are forever changing and that's what makes it all interesting, is it not?  A few years from now what you are so passionate what was "wrong" with something in the past, you may eventually be championing for in the future.  

Maybe I'm confused.  Are we talking about burning a few holy books to gain attention or eradicating an entire religion?  

I know some that think it is a sin to burn a bible, and you will go to hell if you do.  Is is nice to burn a book?  it certainly make less to put in our landfills!  Is it hurting anyone?  One man's rights ends where the next one's begins.

the only time i would say it is malicious is when it is done to eradicate historical evidence, but see no signifigance between a holy or non-holy book (why the differentiation?).  the same would be said for any tangible thing that we could learn from or just gain insight into our past and how we came into being.  I don't think this is the issue being discussed though, is it?  the topic at hand is; is  it immoral to burn books just to burn them, am i wrong?  in that case, why would that matter to you?  why is it so offensive to some?  who cares what the book burner thinks or does (if it isn't causing harm)??  and i agree with our friend who wrote that the believers would support their religion more when they go out to buy more books!!  

i've pretty much wrote a whole chapter here, so i'll stop now before someone wants to burn me.  

QuoteDo you think it is okay to burn holy books?

I don't.

They don't provide much heat, they produce too much smoke, they burn up way too fast, and they leave behind a bad smell for a long time.

Quote from: "url=http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/132739]Answerbag.com[/url]"]Hardwood's, like madrone, live oak, eucalyptus, walnut, black oak etc., are the choice of the serious fire burner. You may pay $300 for a cord of oak, and only $250 for a cord of fir. BUT, because the oak is more dense, it weighs much more than the fir. So you actually get more for your money with hardwood.

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Of course it's okay. I think the whole taboo of burning the Bible, or the American flag, or whatnot is silly. It's just a book/flag. There are many, many more. Who gives a shit?

They're just books. However, I don't see any point in burning any books. Unless The Day After Tomorrow comes true.

Quote from: "Cecilie"I don't see any point in burning any books. Unless The Day After Tomorrow comes true.

Then you can come over to my place and we can grill hotdogs over them burning bibles  

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Cecilie"I don't see any point in burning any books. Unless The Day After Tomorrow comes true.

Then you can come over to my place and we can grill hotdogs over them burning bibles  

Well, I do like hotdogs...

Thinking about it, I've decided that's perfectly alright to burn any book you want to burn, holy or not. I smell a rat, though, when someone has to make a big deal about it.

"Huh-huh, ah'm burnin' this here book cuz this here's what killed all them people and them folks who read this here book ain't Christian and that ain't right. No sir it ain't. Now ya'll come on down to our church to get some proper bible teachin'. Miss Henry's gonna roast us a big ole pig."

I don't consider it "immoral" to burn a book, but I do consider it retarded.  Nothing reeks of fear -- or impotence -- like burning ideas.

A better, and more useful,  statement is converting them to toilet paper, anyway.

I would differentiate between burning a book, and sending out a diktat that all copies of a book are to be burnt and expunged from the records of libraries. One is a (fairly crude imho) statement, the other is an attempt at censorship.

Quote from: "SSY"One is a (fairly crude imho) statement, the other is an attempt at censorship.

"One" is not even a statement unless done in public with some deeper agenda. I see no statement in using a bible for kindling when I need a fire started. Is paper. You know... Cellulose... Burns well.