Happy Atheist Forum

Hi! Hopefully this doesn't bore anyone, but this is a thumbnail sketch of how I ended up on this forum.

I'm joining a bit late in life. I'm a science teacher. My degree is in Physics, but I teach in a rural school, so I've taught everything from grades 7-12 in science. Because of graduate coursework, I also teach math courses from grades 7-12. This year, I have no math, but I teach Physics, Chemistry, freshman Physical Science, and Anatomy.

The life sciences have never been my thing, but this is the first year I haven't taught Biology.

I grew up in a very fundamentalist church. I refused to continue attending at age 13, but mostly because I didn't get along with the other kids. I swallowed a lot of the rest of it (except the literal 7 day and 6000 year stuff) hook, line, and sinker.

I attended a Christian College (Grove City College) which taught actual science rather than superstition. Hopefully that is still the case. So, it was in college that I figured out that Christians could agree with evolution. That was a big relief for me from my childhood programming, though it turned out I still had a long way to go. I even had a revelation in my 20s that I thought was from God. (I'll have to talk about that some time if I feel like this forum is a good place to be.)

I coasted through my twenties and thirties as a Christian. I accepted the science and the religion. I even became treasurer at my church a few years ago and started filling the pulpit when the pastor wasn't there.

Last winter, I was asked to fill the pulpit at a neighboring church. Where I live is really rural, so there is no pulpit supply. I would miss attending my church, but I felt called. So, I attended the church and felt a sinking feeling. Afterward, I met with the pastor, and somehow the conversation turned toward evolution. So I mentioned what I said a few lines above about my college. The pastor flat out told me that it was impossible to be a Christian and believe in evolution. Then he started trying to debunk me, and I easily refuted it. (As I said, I was Christian, but fully scientific in my thinking.) But, what really got me thinking was that he went on his trip and left me in charge of his church for those weeks anyway.

It really made me wonder how serious he was. I know there have been times I came to school despite severe illness just to keep a bad substitute teacher away from my students. Not a fun day, but I was protecting my students. And that's not with the idea of protecting their eternal souls.

But, hearing that I wasn't a Christian (which was shouted at me) but then being left in charge of an entire congregation for over a month really opened my eyes. It started me researching my Bible, re-reading my Bible, and truly questioning my faith.

It wasn't until late this past summer that I realized that I might not be a Christian anymore. And it took me a little while longer to admit it publicly (first on my YouTube Channel and now here).

At the moment, I describe my faith as "it's complicated" but, honestly, I think I should say "social deist." My family is totally open to my beliefs. Apparently my parents have gone through what I did. It took me admitting my struggles to find out they've been through the same thing at approximately the same time. It may say something about my family's communication, but that's another topic. So, they're not the problem.

However, I love the group of people at my church. It's a small group of wonderful people who are surprisingly accepting. I'm actually an important part of the congregation, and they are honestly the reason I still live here. They got me through some other struggles in my life. I'm now treasurer of the church. To get a back up treasurer was difficult. I also fill in for the pastor when he's gone. With no pulpit supply, I'm needed.

I wish I could take back a few sermons I've done in the past. Since realizing the truth about my faith, I've been more careful. But, I've realized I have troubles. Before all of this, I dreamed of a sermon on how the Bible came to be. I started researching it and saw the same things I see now. At the time, I thought I would explain them away as knowing what comes from the human mind and what comes from God's mind. But, now, I don't think I could sincerely do that.

I can pick a good passage, find the moral message, and do a sermon in good conscience. I can relate the history and context of the passage, talk about how it came to be, and discuss any controversy. To their credit, the congregation didn't even blink when I mentioned in a sermon that the tale of the woman caught in adultery from the book of John was added later. And, honestly, they helped me through a few really hard patches in my life. Maybe when I know you all better, I'll discuss those too.

So, I'm currently a social deist because I love this small group of people. It's a small, extremely rural church that doesn't have running water and is located about 15 miles from the nearest paved road. But, in a lot of ways they're family. So, while I don't lie on purpose, I have not admitted that I'm no longer a believer. One lady in the church just lost a grandson, and I taught him for several years, so I know why she values this feeling. In this rural area, I really do feel attached to my students. But, my congregation is really my family, especially since my family is across the country.

I can't imagine coming to church and saying, "It's all a myth." So, I'm struggling there. I love the people. I think most of them would accept me, but not in the church setting, and that would mean that they would be out of my life for the most part. Also, not to overstate my importance, but I think that because of the age of the dedicated members of the congregation, my withdrawal would kill the church.

And, when I think back, I wouldn't be here right now. I have a Christian pastor who is not my pastor to thank. His statement that I couldn't be Christian and believe in evolution really opened up all the issues in Christianity to me. I belong to a mainline denomination that accepts evolution and is fairly liberal overall. I live in a rural area that may be more conservative, but I've never hidden anything until this summer when I figured out I was an atheist, and may have been for years without recognizing it. Truthfully, my reasoning over the years isn't very faith based.

******

On a happier note: I have a fountain pen channel on YouTube with two minor videos on religion. I write science fiction for fun. I am interested in foreign language, especially Mandarin Chinese. I have always been fascinated by science and logical thinking. Until last winter, I never saw any contradiction between science and my faith. I still find the Bible fascinating, even if I don't think it came from a god anymore. I believe in critical thinking, evidence, and doing the right thing.

In the novel I've been writing, I'm seeing a huge change. My hero was adopted at age 9 and raised by an alcoholic pastor. My change, now, is that my hero is not a Christian. Ironically, this makes him more interesting because of a lot of the other things going on in his life. It works better because he's overthrowing another religion. Before, it was a struggle to balance out his faith and the need to have religious freedom in the new society. Now, he's fighting against major formative forces in his life.

I've gone on long enough. I'm here to learn. I hope to figure out my "social deism" at some point.

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on November 08, 2015, 05:10:17 AM
Hi! Hopefully this doesn't bore anyone, but this is a thumbnail sketch of how I ended up on this forum. . . .

Hello and welcome to HAF, Waski_the_Squirrel. Thank you for that detailed and fascinating intro post. Normally at this point I would add a boilerplate "Notes for New Members" text, but this site has just recently been re-booted after a serious technical crash/downtime, and some of the boilerplate isn't applicable just now. So, an abbreviated version--

First, The Rules. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.0)

Second, some other threads you may find interesting:

Where did you get your username from? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5133.0)
10 Things About Yourself  (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4940.0)
Tell us A Bit About Where You're From (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8215.0)
Photography (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0)
Non-religious pet peeves  (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=6917.0)
Pets...what do you have? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7.0)
How to tell your family you are an atheist. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5111.0)
"Rules for Conducting a Discussion" by Dr. Mortimer J. Adler (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5631.0)

I see you've already found the "Photography" thread and posted some very striking images.

You'll notice that some threads here seem very out of date, while others seem to start in mid-conversation. That's because the database is still in the process of being restored--don't let it stop you from jumping in and contributing. I think that your perspective will be very welcome and worthwhile, and I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

I hope that you enjoy your time reading and posting here!  :)

Welcome fellow science teacher.  I teach over here in th UK, I've recently returned to the school sector after a brief break of working in areas related to education and am enjoying it far more this time round.  I hope you stick around on here :)

Greetings and welcome, Waski_the_Squirrel! (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.venganza.org%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ffsm_welcome.gif&hash=0bf36de3c389fd9a381d25dca1435bea9f81d614)

You are going through a difficult and trying transformation - I almost said 'ordeal' - which might well cause a serious disturbance to a less mature man.  Lucky you're a bit older, I guess; you appear to be handling things steadily and calmly.  Well done!

Although you seem to be doing very well on your own, the HAF is an ideal place to talk things over and pick up a bit of moral support.  Don't take too much notice of the silly threads - we like to have our fun - and use us as a sounding-board.

Hello Waski

A fascinating introduction. Have you been a member of an atheist orientated forum before? You say you're joining in later in life. I'm 55 and a never-theist atheist. I grew up in England in a village about 5 miles away from where Charles Darwin wrote Origin of Species. I had a Christian mum and an atheist dad. I went to church with my mum but it never stuck. I seriously got into science, and biology in particular at around 13. The TV series 'Life on Earth' by David Attenborough had a tremendous influence on my out look on life.

I became a 'militant atheist', you know somebody who challenges 'woo' rather than just nods politely and smiles, around 2006/7 after reading 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins. The trigger was the realisation of the dangers of American evangelical Christians. My nephew got suckered by Billy Graham and has turned into one of the most vile people I know. But that's another story.

As an ex-theists atheist and deist you'll be in good company here.

Welcome to HAF.

Regards
Chris

Welcome to the forum, Waski! I hope you like it here, this is a small but great online community. :)

Like Tank I am a never-theist, even though I spent a few years in a public religious school which did try to shove literalist religion down people's throats. I was an avid reader of books on all sorts of mythology, and when the teacher tried to tell us that Noah's Ark was real, I saw uncanny parallels and dismissed it as fiction - along with the rest. In my teens I was briefly curious about deism, but it didn't stick.

So now I would describe myself as an agnostic atheist, antitheist when I feel I have to be.

Welcome, Waski, The Science Teacher.
That was a good introduction, and I really liked your pictures--North Dakota doesn't look like Los Angeles, Calfornia, at all. :smileshake:  I usually hang out at the silly threads. I nod politely and smile when very old people bless me, but sometimes I become a 'militant atheist' when young people bless me. Like, Claire, I also hope you stick around on here.

Thanks everyone!

Quote from: OldGit on November 08, 2015, 10:36:40 AM
You are going through a difficult and trying transformation - I almost said 'ordeal' - which might well cause a serious disturbance to a less mature man.  Lucky you're a bit older, I guess; you appear to be handling things steadily and calmly.  Well done!

Thanks! I actually just turned 40 (no connection). I think it has been an easy transformation because I was an atheist before and just didn't know it. I was going through the theistic motions but they had no meaning. I still attend church, but that has more to do with the people and the socializing than the worship.  I also find the Bible interesting, even if I don't believe a god of some kind is responsible for it.

Quote from: Tank on November 08, 2015, 10:47:13 AM
Hello Waski

Have you been a member of an atheist orientated forum before? You say you're joining in later in life. I'm 55 and a never-theist atheist.

I became a 'militant atheist', you know somebody who challenges 'woo' rather than just nods politely and smiles, around 2006/7 after reading 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins. The trigger was the realisation of the dangers of American evangelical Christians. My nephew got suckered by Billy Graham and has turned into one of the most vile people I know. But that's another story.

I've never been part of an atheist forum before. This is my first. I was looking for something else, and stumbled across some discussions here. I decided to stick around. It's time for a new forum anyway. I've been part of a forum for years that has mostly Christians and conservatives. Recently they've become a lot more militant, and I've gotten a lot more annoyed by some of what is posted there. And when I get "not everything needs evidence" as a response to my question about what the evidence is for specific claims, well, how does one even have a conversation?

I agree about evangelical Christians. I think part of what happened in that forum was the scales being lifted from my eyes, but part of it was the growing militancy of that movement. When I get attacked for criticizing some presidential candidates for their beliefs about evolution of the use of pyramids as grain silos, I realize I don't fit in. I keep hoping my posts may help others think, but in that environment, I wonder if thinking is encouraged.

I won't say I'm militant at all. I like to live and let live. But there are some things I can't let go. Anti-science and pseudoscience are right there. Also, misrepresentation of Christian faith, whether by Christians or non-Christians. It's amazing that you can quote verses, discuss the history and context of a section of the Bible, and a devout Christian prefers their Sunday School story to what's actually right there in the Bible.

Quote from: Magdalena on November 08, 2015, 06:21:57 PM
Welcome, Waski, The Science Teacher.
That was a good introduction, and I really liked your pictures--North Dakota doesn't look like Los Angeles, Calfornia, at all. :smileshake: 

I've never visited LA, but I've certainly seen it in movies and TV shows. It's a different world here. Mostly I like my rural/small town lifestyle.

Welcome Waski!  Glad to have you.  Reading your story, it is so similar to so many I've heard over the years.  It was a passion for science, critical thinking, philosophy and psychology that brought me away from a generic non-denominational Christian view.  Although now if people ask me what religion I am I usually say Odin and follow it up with a loud "All Hail the Allfather!" - okay that really only happened a handful of times and scotch was involved.

It's great you're a science teacher, something that can be especially difficult in small, rural areas.  I'm from rural south Texas and my science curriculum even throughout high school was a joke.  I didn't really learn anything until I went to college.  Anyhow, I'm not a science teacher or instructor but I have been fortunate enough to "school" some folks when it came to evolutionary theory...they weren't too happy about it and exited the exchanged quite miffed and then told me I "don't know shit" because I'm not a biologist - which that is true, I'm not.  I'm a research psychologist...then I get the questions about if I shock people or research mind control.

Anyhow, welcome aboard.

Waski. Feel free to quote one post at a time. We have lots of electrons  ;D

Quote from: solidsquid on November 08, 2015, 08:32:17 PM
It's great you're a science teacher, something that can be especially difficult in small, rural areas.  I'm from rural south Texas and my science curriculum even throughout high school was a joke.  I didn't really learn anything until I went to college.  Anyhow, I'm not a science teacher or instructor but I have been fortunate enough to "school" some folks when it came to evolutionary theory...they weren't too happy about it and exited the exchanged quite miffed and then told me I "don't know shit" because I'm not a biologist - which that is true, I'm not.  I'm a research psychologist...then I get the questions about if I shock people or research mind control.

I always think it's funny when a nonBiologist questions my qualifications to question their creationism because I'm not a Biologist. Pot, meet kettle! A few years ago, I discovered logical fallacies, and that gave me a lot more tools.

I'm going to speak up in rural North Dakota's defense a bit. There is certainly that unpleasant element here, but I have only had trouble with one or two students over teaching evolution. This is not a creationist state. Again, that element is here, but it's thankfully small.

I saw a lot more of it when I grew up on the east coast, also in a small, rural area. But part of that may be age. I graduated in 1994 after all.

Trust me, even if you were a biologist, a majority of creationists wouldn't care. They know in their minds that evolutionary theory is false and therefore there's no point discussing it, even though they don't know the first thing about evolutionary theory...  ::)

Worse than creationism is creationism 2.0, (Intelligent Design). It's a "virus" that mimics science to infiltrate itself in people's minds and could very well become a pandemic. Most people who advocate that it be accepted as science are not biologists themselves, but that's hardly brought up.

At the university where I study/work there are plenty of professors that buy into that crap and try to push it down others' throats. Almost all of them are from the engineering professions. It was only just two years ago that Michael Behe visited Brazil, where I live, to spew his nonsense.

Sorry for all the ranting. My outlook is bleak.  :(

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2015, 02:02:33 AM. . . Almost all of them are from the engineering professions. . . .

The Salem Hypothesis (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Salem_Hypothesis) in action again.  :-\

Quote from: Recusant on November 09, 2015, 05:06:42 AM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2015, 02:02:33 AM. . . Almost all of them are from the engineering professions. . . .

The Salem Hypothesis (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Salem_Hypothesis) in action again.  :-\

I had to look up the reference. But, it makes me wonder: should it also include surgeons?

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on November 09, 2015, 05:19:41 AMI had to look up the reference.

There is a link in my post to a page describing it, but yes, links aren't especially obvious in the text here.

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on November 09, 2015, 05:19:41 AMBut, it makes me wonder: should it also include surgeons?

;)  Perhaps, but according to our esteemed member Ecurb Noselrub, at least some surgeons have a tendency toward atheism (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=14119.msg320695#msg320695).

Quote from: Recusant on November 09, 2015, 05:06:42 AM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2015, 02:02:33 AM. . . Almost all of them are from the engineering professions. . . .

The Salem Hypothesis (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Salem_Hypothesis) in action again.  :-\

Makes sense!

QuoteThe Salem Hypothesis is the observation of the apparent correlation between the engineering trade and creationist beliefs (possibly due to crank magnetism, this can also include climate change denial and other crackpot beliefs). It holds that people who claim science expertise, whilst advocating creationism, tend to be formally trained as engineers[1] (with a possible exception of chemical engineers). This hypothesis does not address whether engineers tend to be creationists (the converse); however, it has been speculated that engineering predisposes people to a creation science view.

Over here one of the loudest faculty members who try to spread this virus is actually a chemical engineer. 

Welcome! I'm a lapsed NY jew, though I've lived in Massachusetts for half my life. Got bar mitzvah'd  and all that but never really believed, nor did my parents. I was  an apathist and didn't care one way or another about religion until an incident a few years ago. My wife was taking her US citizenship test and when she tried to omit "So help me God" from the oath the interviewer got upset and tried to coerce her into saying it. Ever since I've been comfortably in the atheist camp. However, we also have some theists who hang around here too, so we welcome all sorts of viewpoints.

Very interesting story btw! I completely understand why you're feeling torn, it does seem you have found a close-knit group who cares for each other, and that's not something you can give up easily. Hopefully we can help you navigate this path.

Quote from: Recusant on November 09, 2015, 05:06:42 AM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2015, 02:02:33 AM. . . Almost all of them are from the engineering professions. . . .

The Salem Hypothesis (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Salem_Hypothesis) in action again.  :-\

Hmm, hadn't thought about it really but all the engineers I know are very religious, not sure if they're creationists though.  However, one did mention "finding Noah's Ark".

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on November 09, 2015, 01:36:09 AMI always think it's funny when a nonBiologist questions my qualifications to question their creationism because I'm not a Biologist. Pot, meet kettle! A few years ago, I discovered logical fallacies, and that gave me a lot more tools.

Logic has so many tools that are quite useful in debates.  Unfortunately, that is usually met with fingers in the ears and screaming, "La la la, I can't hear you!"

Quote from: solidsquid on November 11, 2015, 01:04:17 AM

Logic has so many tools that are quite useful in debates.  Unfortunately, that is usually met with fingers in the ears and screaming, "La la la, I can't hear you!"

True!

But the fallacies have also helped me think about my own contributions to a debate.

 I am a mechanical engineer and I have been blissfully unaware of any connection between engineering disciplines and theism. I have three friends who are engineers. All three of them are agnostic at the very least. We never mention religion because we are too much interested in what works and what does not work, as well as  the reasons. One of my friends is a mining engineer who has seen so many 40 thousand year old fossils and bones that he is not inclined toward young earth claims. Another one is an electrical engineer who does not believe that lightning bolts are demonstrations of the wrath of God. I can not imagine an engineer who refutes the sciences, that he or she knows so well, in favor of some kind of crackpot belief in things that can not be demonstrated.

I have worked in engineering departments where there were dozens of engineers and I can not remember any of them ever referring to God or Jesus except in some profane rant about a system failure.

I have suspected that dentists were more likely to be the religious ones. I used a certain dentist for 30 years and he was a devout Presbyterian. When he solved a difficult problem while messing around in my mouth, he would say, and I quote, "thank you sweet Jesus".  I had a few arguments about his blind faith in an imaginary biblical character. I always lost the arguments because he had an impenetrable  brick wall mentality.

I also once had a very religious dentist.  When he broke some bad news to me, I said, "Oh, Jesus!" and got a serious reprimand about taking the name etc etc.

Quote from: OldGit on November 16, 2015, 09:28:10 AM
I also once had a very religious dentist.  When he broke some bad news to me, I said, "Oh, Jesus!" and got a serious reprimand about taking the name etc etc.

This reminds me of a bad joke.

When the dentist mentioned I had a cavity I replied "Oh, sweet cheesus!"

:couchhide: