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questions on Ny thing

Started by billy rubin, May 20, 2021, 08:35:17 PM

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Dark Lightning

Well, I was addressing the sorts of people who are presenting obvious danger to the police or the community. There are many ways to subdue a suspect, but it depends on what they are doing. I'd say that too many police go for their guns too soon. But then, I'm not a trained police officer.

Magdalena

"But then, I'm not a trained police officer."

I think that's the keyword, right there. "a trained". What is the training procedure?

I bet you that if the government gave them a monetary incentive to immobilize instead of killing, they would come up with all sorts of gadgets and shit. Sure, the courts would be filled with people with arm and leg casts, but alive.

Their motto would have to change from:
"To Protect and to Serve."
To:
"To Preserve Life and to Serve."

:notsure:

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin

Tazer, it is, not laser. thats the electric zapper that causes the muscles to seize up for aa few seconds. when it works, it works. but it doesnt always work.  the ones the cops use have little spearheads o wires that shoot across about 6 feet  and stick in the person to deliver the shock. if you miss or if they dont stick in well, the taser doesnt work well. and if the guy has eaten a whole handful of uppers it takes more to slow him down.

and there are genuinely people who you need to shoot, right now, without a doubt. somebody who is chasing after someone with an axe, or a guy in a schoolroom with a gun, threatening to shoot all the kids. looking for gentler ways to remove those immediate and deadly threats can cause other people to die.

but here is an example of doing it badly:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/05/chicago-laquan-mcdonald-jason-van-dyke

QuoteThe video showed Van Dyke's car pull up as McDonald, 17, was striding down the middle of a two-way street, carrying a knife. Police had answered a 911 call after McDonald was reportedly seen attempting to break into a truck.

The jury heard that the first police officers on the scene kept a distance from McDonald as he walked. An autopsy would later show that McDonald, who was carrying a three-inch bladed knife, had the drug PCP in his system.

By the time Van Dyke arrived, police cars had McDonald effectively surrounded in a quiet area in the early hours. But Van Dyke opened fire within seconds and most of the shots were fired after McDonald fell to the ground.

the cop arrived late, stepped out of his car, and shot the kid until his gun was empty, many as he was lying on the ground.

the kid was armed, and he was high. maybe he could have been stopped with a tazer, maybe not. i would not have condemned a cop for shooting him dead if he attacked anybody. but he didn't. he was walking down the street, surrounded by cops, and was murdered by a cop who showed up and emptied his gun, because he wanted to. 16 shots.

^^^this is th ekind of killing that is inexcuseable. and theres lots more.

but shooting somebody in the arm o the leg isnt something thats easy to do. often in the dark, with people running, with events escalating quickly and little time to think. sometimes there is time to do it. but in general, not. i know of an example in my town where a cop cornered a guy in a mall parking lot as he was tearing around at high speed in a car, trying to get away. he stopped the car to turn around, and the cop shot out his front tire, bang bang. excellenet control and presence of mind. but not always possibl.e

this one also was inexcesable. 2 seconds.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/video-shows-cleveland-officers-shooting-boy-holding-toy-gun/


more people have been to berlin than i have

Magdalena

What would green post?

Quote from: Magdalena on March 20, 2022, 11:17:16 PM
...

I bet you that if the government gave them a monetary incentive to immobilize instead of killing, they would come up with all sorts of gadgets and shit. Sure, the courts would be filled with people with arm and leg casts, but alive.

Their motto would have to change from:
"To Protect and to Serve."
To:
"To Preserve Life and to Serve."

:notsure:







Green, where are you?

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Icarus

Mags, I/we have some sympathy for your position. True enough, there are rogue cops who are inclined to shoot without just cause.  I can remember the Rodney King incident that did not include shooting, but it did include brutal treatment of Rodney.  Since that episode I hope that the LA cops have been persuaded to take a different perspective.




billy rubin



more people have been to berlin than i have

Magdalena

So -- short answer to my question is: "It's not easy"?

OK.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin

you have to be a better shot than me even to consider it


more people have been to berlin than i have

Magdalena

I continue to believe that if there is a desire and determination to immobilize instead of killing, they can find a method.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin

the gun is inherently poor at that, which is why they carry tasers these days.

i would rather have the police simply not involved in encounters with citizens that arent already deadly force confrontations, where that is possible.

give a cop a gun and a license to kill and he will shoot people to death. thats where we are now. theres no motivation to change.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Magdalena

Quote from: billy rubin on March 26, 2022, 08:01:55 PM
...

give a cop a gun and a license to kill and he will shoot people to death. thats where we are now. theres no motivation to change.

Good to hear an honest answer, that way we know where to start.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Icarus

Local item; Yesterday a cop was called to a disturbance in a Starbucks parking lot. The antagonist shot and killed the cop. The cop had not unholstered his gun. 

The gun deal works in both directions,  except that the shooter had no gun license or legitimate reason to carry a gun, perhaps to kill cops  or others with whom he disagreed.

Tom62

^That is sad as well. The USA has a massive obsession with guns. This is something that we (foreigners) don't understand. At any encounter that the police makes they have to take in consideration that the people they encounter wear any weapons. Dealing with gun owning drug addicts, criminals or crazy people can easily escalate in very bad situations. Frankly, I'm amazed that not more people and cops are killed every year, because the number of police encounters runs in the millions. The idea that cops are out there to kill black people can therefore easily be dismissed. Most cops don't want to end up in a George Floyd type of situation.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

billy rubin

#103
not all cops are killers. but all cops tolerate the ones who are.

the one who murdered george floyd had a long history of violent behaviour, over many years. he wasnt advised to cool off or booted out. instead, they made him a trainer.

look at the behaviour of the cops who were involved with the BLM demonstrations. these are the same ones in minneapolis that worked alongside derek chauvin:






more people have been to berlin than i have

Magdalena

Quote from: Tom62 on March 28, 2022, 07:54:02 AM
^That is sad as well. The USA has a massive obsession with guns. This is something that we (foreigners) don't understand. At any encounter that the police makes they have to take in consideration that the people they encounter wear any weapons. Dealing with gun owning drug addicts, criminals or crazy people can easily escalate in very bad situations. Frankly, I'm amazed that not more people and cops are killed every year because the number of police encounters runs in the millions. The idea that cops are out there to kill black people can therefore easily be dismissed. Most cops don't want to end up in a George Floyd type of situation.

There is so much I want to say, but I know you don't live in the US, so I'll just let the numbers speak for themselves:

1,037 people have been shot and killed by police in the past year
Updated March 25, 2022
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant