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Im going to hell

Started by Xiilent, March 27, 2012, 12:27:53 AM

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AnimatedDirt

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 28, 2012, 06:23:43 PM
AD, no matter how much "weight" we give to the belief, in that context, it's just not a nice thing to say.

If you and I were in an argument and I angrily said "you're going to get raped by goblins tonight!" It's mean. It doesn't make it true, but it's still a mean thing to say.

To me, this is not quite the same...but then again, I'm not on the receiving side in the context of Christian to Atheist.  To me, ultimately, the Christian (wrong in their approach, I admit) is simply stating a fact according to Christian belief...and one that even the Atheist doesn't deny...that being that death comes to all.  (What Hell is, is highly debated among Christians.  To me, it's not a place of perpetual pain and suffering, but simply the place that ends life for eternity.)

Rape does not come to all, which is why I would suggest the analogy doesn't fit...IMHO.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: OldGit on March 28, 2012, 06:29:33 PM
Damn, another double post.

I'm having issues with double posts or not posting at all :( !
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

DeterminedJuliet

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 28, 2012, 06:32:18 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 28, 2012, 06:23:43 PM
AD, no matter how much "weight" we give to the belief, in that context, it's just not a nice thing to say.

If you and I were in an argument and I angrily said "you're going to get raped by goblins tonight!" It's mean. It doesn't make it true, but it's still a mean thing to say.

To me, this is not quite the same...but then again, I'm not on the receiving side in the context of Christian to Atheist.  To me, ultimately, the Christian (wrong in their approach, I admit) is simply stating a fact according to Christian belief...and one that even the Atheist doesn't deny...that being that death comes to all.  (What Hell is, is highly debated among Christians.  To me, it's not a place of perpetual pain and suffering, but simply the place that ends life for eternity.)

Rape does not come to all, which is why I would suggest the analogy doesn't fit...IMHO.

I could have the belief that goblins rape anyone who doesn't follow the same religion that I do.

And, again, the "fact" isn't an excuse. You can use facts in an aggressive way. It might be a "fact" that your father died from lung cancer (I have no idea if that's true, so forgive me if it is). I can gently say in a conversation "your father died from lung cancer...", or, if I'm mad, I can shout "Your father is dead!". Same fact. One delivery is kind, one delivery is mean. The intent matters.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

DeterminedJuliet

That's if we take it from a Christian perspective that it is a "fact", but even if it isn't (to an atheist), it's pretty hard to pretend that there isn't intention behind the delivery.

We're still humans, you know. We can tell if someone is trying to be nasty to us.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Beachdragon

I remember a retort we used to like to say back when I was in High School.  Can be used with "Go to Hell" as well as "You're going to hell."

"I've already been, I didn't like your mother's cooking." 

:D

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 28, 2012, 06:49:48 PM
That's if we take it from a Christian perspective that it is a "fact", but even if it isn't (to an atheist), it's pretty hard to pretend that there isn't intention behind the delivery.

We're still humans, you know. We can tell if someone is trying to be nasty to us.

I'm happy to admit the "meaness" of stating the fact according to Christian belief in the manner some do.  My point is that both the Atheist and the Christian do NOT disagree on their mortality or it's eternal implication either by Christian reckoning or by Atheist understanding of death.  One acknowledges death as eternal without need of a God and the other acknowledges death as eternal without God.  The place is the same.

DeterminedJuliet

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 28, 2012, 07:31:55 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 28, 2012, 06:49:48 PM
That's if we take it from a Christian perspective that it is a "fact", but even if it isn't (to an atheist), it's pretty hard to pretend that there isn't intention behind the delivery.

We're still humans, you know. We can tell if someone is trying to be nasty to us.

I'm happy to admit the "meaness" of stating the fact according to Christian belief in the manner some do.  My point is that both the Atheist and the Christian do NOT disagree on their mortality or it's eternal implication either by Christian reckoning or by Atheist understanding of death.  One acknowledges death as eternal without need of a God and the other acknowledges death as eternal without God.  The place is the same.

I agree with that assessment, but I don't think that's what this post was originally getting at. I think the OP posted because they were a bit upset and felt attacked personally.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 28, 2012, 07:36:12 PM
I agree with that assessment, but I don't think that's what this post was originally getting at. I think the OP posted because they were a bit upset and felt attacked personally.

Maybe my bias is causing me to be insensitive to this, but I still cannot see why anyone would be offended by being told they are going to a place that doesn't exist.

The Magic Pudding

Quote from: OldGit on March 28, 2012, 06:29:33 PM
Damn, another double post.

It's the condemnation committee, we they have to record all the incriminating stuff.

Ali

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 28, 2012, 07:40:21 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 28, 2012, 07:36:12 PM
I agree with that assessment, but I don't think that's what this post was originally getting at. I think the OP posted because they were a bit upset and felt attacked personally.

Maybe my bias is causing me to be insensitive to this, but I still cannot see why anyone would be offended by being told they are going to a place that doesn't exist.

Again, I'm not worried about actually going to Hell, but when someone says something that I know they perceive to be threatening to me, it typically gets my dander up.  Let's say that instead of saying "You're going to hell" they said "That smart mouth of yours is going to get your ass kicked one of these days."  Both are intended to be threatening.  I don't like being threatened, even if I don't actually believe that what the person is threatening will occur. 

Tank

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 28, 2012, 07:40:21 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 28, 2012, 07:36:12 PM
I agree with that assessment, but I don't think that's what this post was originally getting at. I think the OP posted because they were a bit upset and felt attacked personally.

Maybe my bias is causing me to be insensitive to this, but I still cannot see why anyone would be offended by being told they are going to a place that doesn't exist.
AD you really do demonstrate a complete lack of empathy at times. Body language, verbal intonation, context and content are all part of a message that can be sympathetic or aggressive. You often appear to be incapable of understanding this. Do you understand that the intent of aggression can be given and received almost irrespective of the words said?

For example, "You're a fucking wanker!" Is this a nice or nasty thing to say to somebody?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Ali on March 28, 2012, 07:53:53 PM
Again, I'm not worried about actually going to Hell, but when someone says something that I know they perceive to be threatening to me, it typically gets my dander up.  Let's say that instead of saying "You're going to hell" they said "That smart mouth of yours is going to get your ass kicked one of these days."  Both are intended to be threatening.  I don't like being threatened, even if I don't actually believe that what the person is threatening will occur.

Don't take this as me being argumentative or insensitive, but I'm still lost on this.  It's just not something I am yet able to grasp...about being angry or threatened by something that WILL NOT happen!  I mean, it is your belief (non-belief) that God does not exist.  The typical stance is that the believer is deluded (the nice type of being deluded) and that God and even more so, the Bible is a set of fairytales at best.  It's like me being offended by a person of the Flat Earth belief "threatening" me that if I keep running or driving east, I'll drop off the earth into an oblivion and die...it's just not something I believe will happen...it's no threat to me.  A smart-ass mouth WILL get one's ass kicked sooner or later...the threat/warning is real.

If my perception was that being beat to death by a cooked wet noodle to be the most excruciating painful death known to man, would your dander be up in the same manner?   

Guardian85

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 28, 2012, 08:23:59 PM
If my perception was that being beat to death by a cooked wet noodle to be the most excruciating painful death known to man, would your dander be up in the same manner?   
If you used this to subtextually assert that you are better then the person you are saying it to, or that this person deserves being beaten to death with a wet noodle (having a little problem with picturing this, but still...) then it would certainly be a reason to be upset. Not because you think it's going to happen but because the person saying this thinks it should happen.
It's basically this person stating: "I am better then you! You deserve nasty things because you are not as good as me!" And that can be very aggravating.


"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Ali

#58
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 28, 2012, 08:33:46 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 28, 2012, 08:23:59 PM
If my perception was that being beat to death by a cooked wet noodle to be the most excruciating painful death known to man, would your dander be up in the same manner?    
If you used this to subtextually assert that you are better then the person you are saying it to, or that this person deserves being beaten to death with a wet noodle (having a little problem with picturing this, but still...) then it would certainly be a reason to be upset. Not because you think it's going to happen but because the person saying this thinks it should happen.
It's basically this person stating: "I am better then you! You deserve nasty things because you are not as good as me!" And that can be very aggravating.

I think the whole "deserves" part of it is part of what grinds, for sure.

First of all, AD, not all Christians take the belief that hell is simply death without god.  Many actually do believe that Hell is a place of eternal torment, and they are usally the ones that use hell as a threat.  I have actually heard "Christians" say such things as "I am looking forward to when you atheists burn in hell,. I wish I could watch."  That's not really a simple "factual" statement, that is "You're going to be tortured for eternity, you deserve to be tortured for eternity, and the concept of you being tortured for eternity fills me with glee."  If someone is meaning to be nasty, the message comes across loud and clear.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Guardian85 on March 28, 2012, 08:33:46 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 28, 2012, 08:23:59 PM
If my perception was that being beat to death by a cooked wet noodle to be the most excruciating painful death known to man, would your dander be up in the same manner?
If you used this to subtextually assert that you are better then the person you are saying it to, or that this person deserves being beaten to death with a wet noodle (having a little problem with picturing this, but still...) then it would certainly be a reason to be upset. Not because you think it's going to happen but because the person saying this thinks it should happen.
It's basically this person stating: "I am better then you! You deserve nasty things because you are not as good as me!" And that can be very aggravating.

So it's not so much the "You're going to hell" as it is their apparent placement of themselves above you...?  You're saying that because they think themselves better, it upsets you?