Happy Atheist Forum

This item would fit well in the "Dominionists" thread, but I think it deserves its own topic.

The US right wing has been pushing toward a theocratic regime for some time, and making notable progress. Another step in the right direction. . .

"The Supreme Court tears a new hole in the wall separating church and state" | Vox (https://www.vox.com/2022/6/21/23176893/supreme-court-carson-makin-religion-schools-vouchers-chief-justice-roberts)

QuoteThe Supreme Court held on Tuesday that Maine must fund religious education as part of a school voucher program that pays tuition for students in rural parts of the state. In the process, the Court's decision in Carson v. Makin tears down one of the foundational rules separating church from state.

The decision was 6-3, along partisan lines.

The specific program at issue in Carson is unusual to Maine. About 5,000 students in Maine's most rural areas, where it is not cost-efficient for the state to operate a public school, receive tuition vouchers that can be used to pay for private education. Maine law provides that these vouchers may only be used at "nonsectarian" schools, not religious ones.

Carson struck down this law excluding religious schools from the Maine voucher program, and that decision could have broad implications far beyond the few thousand students in Maine who benefit from these tuition subsidies.

Not that long ago, the Court required the government to remain neutral on questions of religion — a requirement that flowed from the First Amendment's command that the government "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." In practice, that meant that the government could neither impose burdens on religious institutions that it didn't impose on others, nor could it actively subsidize religion.

Carson turns this neutrality rule on its head, holding that government benefit programs that exclude religious institutions engage in "discrimination against religion" that violates the Constitution.

[Continues . . . (https://www.vox.com/2022/6/21/23176893/supreme-court-carson-makin-religion-schools-vouchers-chief-justice-roberts)]

"Supreme Court Forces Maine to Fund Christian Schools, Undoing Centuries of Precedent" | American Atheists (https://www.atheists.org/2022/06/carson-v-makin-ruling/)

Quote"The religious conservative majority on the Supreme Court is intent on placing the interests of Christians above all others, including individuals' fundamental rights," said Alison Gill, Vice President for Legal and Policy at American Atheists. "These justices will keep working at breakneck speed to undermine nondiscrimination protections, replace public education with a discriminatory religious 'education,' and force Americans to fund conservative Christianity and other religions. This will harm countless Americans, especially children."

"Extremists are weakening our democracy," said Nick Fish, president of American Atheists. "Calls to reform and expand the Court to limit the impact of its dangerous Christian nationalist wing will only grow louder, as the Supreme Court tries to establish what can only be described as a theocracy. Today's decision is appalling, but it isn't the first and it won't be the last."

"As Justice Sotomayor said in her dissent, 'the Court leads us to a place where separation of church and state becomes a constitutional violation.' Today it's public schools; tomorrow it will be abortion. Who knows what comes next? We are embarking on dangerous, uncharted territory," Fish added.

[Link to full article. (https://www.atheists.org/2022/06/carson-v-makin-ruling/)]

I get more disgusted with the SCOTUS every day. I'm OK here in California, but a lot of people aren't so fortunate.

theyre giving public money to students in religious private schools because they already give money to stidents in non religious private schools.

they say it isnt "cost efficient" to build public schools. bullshit. build the schools where the kids are. theyre not supposed to make a profit.

im against giving public money to any private schools at all. i think the solution is to build public schools. but if a secular school gets it, i dont think tberes a good reason to exclude religious schools from the program.

the answer is public education

Quote from: billy rubin on June 21, 2022, 11:33:48 PMtheyre giving public money to students in religious private schools because they already give money to stidents in non religious private schools.

they say it isnt "cost efficient" to build public schools. bullshit. build the schools where the kids are. theyre not supposed to make a profit.

im against giving public money to any private schools at all. i think the solution is to build public schools. but if a secular school gets it, i dont think tberes a good reason to exclude religious schools from the program.

the answer is public education

The good reason is that in the US, government is secular by design (https://www.encyclopedia.com/law/legal-and-political-magazines/constitution-created-secular-government). Therefore it should not be paying for religious institutions to indoctrinate children.

You are all upset, but you forget those mysterious ways and their magical reaching mitts.

You guessed it, the creator of all that there is, is concerned with a 240ish year old country and it's oh so special inhabitants. (Especially the pale ones that turn from milk to lobster in mere seconds)

yes, the US is secular by design, and the intent was to be neutral to all religions, or to no religions.

the pertinent phrase in tbe first constitutional amendment is ". . .  congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." the intent was to be even-handed.

i dont think public money should go to any private school, religious or secular. but to single out religious private schools for rejection when secular private schools get public money goes against the original intentions, i think.

maine is in a pickle. most of the school districts in tbe state have no public high schools at all, and they dont have the money to fund them. i think that that is the problem that needs to be addressed, and then cut all money from all private schools, charter, religious, secular-- all of them.

i think the first time a muslim family applies for money to fund a sharia-based private madrasa that the resulting uproar will likely solve this.

I don't think public money going to causes forwarded by various religious communities necessitates a "hole" in separation of church and state any more than taxing the churches would.

That is, however, predicated on every sort of religious persuasion within the boundaries of what's acceptable (As to exclude The Church Of Weekly virgin Sacrifice and other such bullshit what may and would creep out of the woodwork of my position) being treated equally. So if I can get government funding for my atheist club, then you should be able to for your Quran studies and she for her Bible camp and they for their whatever-it-is-Hindus do and so on and so forth.

I don't think government entities should fund such things at all, but if they do... It's "all" or "nothing."

Speaking of for-profit entities, if private schools in the US are such, I don't think the government should fund them except in a shareholder capacity. If you give a business ten percent of its value in public coin - then it should be a ten percent public business, no?

i have just contacted the satanic church about membershiip.

they say they will get back to me

Start your own chapter. Demand public coin. If refused, sue their government behinds loudly.

Eh... Prolly a bad idea. Public opinion tolerates hypocrisy - as long as it goes their way.

the satanic temple people get a bad rsp.brcause people assume they we orship tje christian devil.

in fact its a secular bunch of atheists who promote a strict liberalism. i have never heard anything bsd about them except from people who make assumptions based on their name.

From what I know of it, Laveyan Satanism is an expression of "exclusive individualism." It's not a theistic religion, but rather, a rejection thereof as a part of rejection of social conformity.

There are worse things to practice, although joining a club - even that club - is hardly the pinnacle of individualism.

If convenient, simply lie. All is forgiven when it's for the greater glory of the Christian god.

"Gorsuch Blasted After Photos Expose His Claims in High School Coach Praying Case Are a 'Flat Out, Knowing Lie'" | New Civil Rights Movement (https://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/2022/06/lied-gorsuch-blasted-after-photos-expose-his-claims-in-high-school-coach-praying-case-are-a-flat-out-knowing-lie/)

QuoteMany people from legal experts to court watchers to journalists to ordinary Americans on social media are criticizing Justice Neil Gorsuch for his majority opinion in a decision siding with a former high school football coach. That coach sued after the school district ordered him to stop praying after every game at the 50-yard line. Justice Gorsuch's opinion, as many are noticing, appears to be based on facts that are false. Several are accusing Gorsuch of just plain lying.

Justice Gorsuch claimed the coach's First Amendment rights were violated, and that he was merely engaging in "quiet personal prayer" as he knelt.

Gorsuch uses the word "quiet" 14 times, as The Washington Post's Paul Waldman notes.

"Joseph Kennedy lost his job as a high school football coach because he knelt at midfield after games to offer a quiet prayer of thanks," Justice Gorsuch writes as he begins his majority opinion. "Mr. Kennedy prayed during a period when school employees were free to speak with a friend, call for a reservation at a restaurant, check email, or attend to other personal matters. He offered his prayers quietly while his students were otherwise occupied. Still, the Bremerton School District disciplined him anyway. It did so because it thought anything less could lead a reasonable observer to conclude (mistakenly) that it endorsed Mr. Kennedy's religious beliefs. That reasoning was misguided."

"The contested exercise here does not involve leading prayers with the team," Gorsuch continues (despite photos that appear to suggest otherwise), "the District disciplined Mr. Kennedy only for his decision to persist in praying quietly without his students after three games in October 2015."

These are the photos of Coach Kennedy that Justice Sonia Sotomayor included in her dissent:


(https://i.imgur.com/pqdyteW.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/61E7Go2.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/oGEAKKb.jpg)


[Continues . . . (https://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/2022/06/lied-gorsuch-blasted-after-photos-expose-his-claims-in-high-school-coach-praying-case-are-a-flat-out-knowing-lie/)]

Verily I say unto you, Trump and McConnel must rightfully be sentenced to burn in hell.

Quote from: Icarus on June 29, 2022, 05:28:42 AMVerily I say unto you, Trump and McConnel must rightfully be sentenced to burn in hell.

On a other hand, they seem to be doing more god's work than many a professed believer, and if we remember the kind of gentleman god is... Well...

Just sayin'... In His divine company, some people would fit in better than others. He prolly likes Trump more than he does Jesus, son or no.

this football  prayer thing is exactly what separation of church and state was supposed to prevent.

he was not engaging in private exercise on the 50 yard line, he was making a prideful public display.

we get christian prayers all the time here at public events in appalachia, generally invoking jesus. but there are hindus, muslims, jews, and atheists in the schools who are expected to participate. not many, but somr

In what way does the coach represents the US state or church?

he represents neither.

there ate several schools of thought in america about government and religion, and the one i believe is correct is "religious tolrration."

government should be neutral towards religion or the lack of it. benefits and restrictions applied to one should be applied to both, and so on.

in this case the coach wanted to pray after the games. nothing wrpng with that. you can pray anywhere at anytime in america, so long as you do not disturb people unduly.

but this coach didnt want to just pray. he wanted to pray loudly, in the center of the football field, immediately after the game, the coach wanted his prayer to be part of the secular practice of a dport in a secular institition, and by doong so made the school game a part of his religious practice.

i saw my own kids in american public school pressured into reciting loyalty oaths, prayers, and military ritials, because they were offered by someone in authority and my kids didnt want to be singled out.

thats the problem. to help show my kids that they dont have to accede to the cultural demands of the local dominant culture, i dont stand for prayers or flag ceremonies or loyalty oaths, dont take off my hat, and sit while people pray.

if you look at the pictures, the coach made a religious spectacle in a place where neutrality has been agreed on. thats the problem i have with it

Quote from: Tom62 on June 29, 2022, 08:47:20 PMIn what way does the coach represents the US state or church?

As an employee of a public school district, he was an official of the state, and he was leading his students in a public prayer, despite what Justice Gorsuch says.

https://abc7.com/nc-workers-fired-not-joining-aurora-pro-services-daily-prayer-devotion-eeoc-atheist/12001573/

Quote from: billy rubin on June 30, 2022, 02:23:16 AMhttps://abc7.com/nc-workers-fired-not-joining-aurora-pro-services-daily-prayer-devotion-eeoc-atheist/12001573/

^^^ This is a religious discrimination issue, by a private employer, as opposed to a separation-of-church-and-state issue. But it is nevertheless gross that the two were fired.

Quote from: Anne D. on June 30, 2022, 01:56:05 AM

Quote from: Tom62 on June 29, 2022, 08:47:20 PMIn what way does the coach represents the US state or church?

As an employee of a public school district, he was an official of the state, and he was leading his students in a public prayer, despite what Justice Gorsuch says.

Thanks for the clarification. The coach should have prayed at home.

I find it amazing the way religious types are able to not notice how what they do goes against the very principles they espouse.  They may be outspoken American patriots, yet they act against the very foundations set out by the American founding fathers.  They claim to be pro-life, but once a child is actually born, they leave the child and its mother to their own devices - no actual support for the living kiddies.  Furthermore, they oppose abortion, but they are often the greatest users of abortion services.   They spout all sorts of twaddle about moral behaviour regarding sexual matters, but they are the greatest perpetrators of child sexual abuse, and they are amongst the largest consumers of pornography, despite denouncing it as evil.

An analysis of this decision, which points out that an honest evaluation of the facts of the case would show that even if Gorsuch has buried the Lemon test (https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/834/lemon-test), there is another precedent in Lee v. Weisman (https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/670/lee-v-weisman) which clearly applies. Gorsuch's dishonesty on the facts allowed him to dodge addressing that precedent. The current court won't let that stop it, but they'll have up their level of duplicity to overturn Lee.

"The Supreme Court hands the religious right a big victory by lying about the facts of a case" | Vox (https://www.vox.com/2022/6/27/23184848/supreme-court-kennedy-bremerton-school-football-coach-prayer-neil-gorsuch)

QuoteIn any event, while Gorsuch's opinion does overrule Lemon, it does not purport to overrule Lee. And, as explained above, Lee permits public school employees to engage in the kind of private, quiet prayer that Gorsuch falsely claims Kennedy engaged in after football games.

That means that the doctrinal implications of Gorsuch's Kennedy opinion on future cases in which public school employees coerce their students into religious exercise are far from clear. If Gorsuch had held that the Constitution permits Kennedy to do what he actually did, then that would be a hugely consequential decision that would gut the Court's previous decision in Lee.

But, because Gorsuch paints such a misleading picture, involving a coach who offered a "short, private, personal prayer," the more limited holding of Kennedy is that this hypothetical activity is allowed. And, again, Lee already permits public school employees to engage in private, personal prayers.

Kennedy will no doubt inspire other teachers and coaches to behave similarly to Coach Kennedy, but those teachers and coaches will do so at their own peril. Gorsuch's opinion doesn't weigh whether a coach is allowed to do what Kennedy actually did. That remains an open question, because the Court did not actually decide that case.

[Link to full article. (https://www.vox.com/2022/6/27/23184848/supreme-court-kennedy-bremerton-school-football-coach-prayer-neil-gorsuch)]

The stinking bastard authoritarian Christians think they have a right to rule one way or another. They're beginning to lose the hearts and minds of the population, so they'll just drag the country to their god by law. In Jesus's name, they will put a governmental yoke on the nation even as they're losing the cultural dominance they once had.

"For This Supreme Court, Justice Isn't Blind. Faith Is." | New York Times (https://archive.ph/vgovi)

QuoteImagine your boss fervently proclaiming his religious beliefs at the end of a companywide meeting, inviting everyone on the team who shares those beliefs to join in. You're surrounded by colleagues and other higher-ups. Everyone is watching to see who participates and who holds back, knowing that whatever each of you does could make or break your job and even your career, whether you share his convictions or not. But hey, totally up to you!

That's what Joseph Kennedy, a former assistant coach in Kitsap County, Wash., did with his team — only he did it with public-school students at a high-school football game. When the superintendent made clear that by actively inviting players to join him at the 50-yard line for postgame Christian prayers, he was violating school policy and, by the way, the Constitution's Establishment Clause, Kennedy took to the media, turning a small town's school sporting event into a three-ring circus and ugly social media sideshow, with students effectively forced to perform or suffer the consequences.

[. . .]

[T]his court's right-wing majority is following the dictum of our Trumpian age: Objective truth doesn't matter. Subjective belief — specifically the beliefs of the court's religious-right majority — does. The Kennedy decision wasn't based on the facts but on belief in the face of facts. Moreover, those six justices are determined to foist their beliefs on the rest of the country.

In allowing for greater "religious expression," the court curtailed the liberty of those whose prayers take other forms, Americans who practice non-Christian faiths and people who do not practice religion at all. Kitsap County is home to a variety of religions, including Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism and Baha'ism. A coach-led Christian prayer on the playing field is necessarily exclusionary.

[. . .]

"Kennedy v. Bremerton opens the door for so much more government promotion of religion and a great deal of religious favoritism by government officials," Daniel Mach, director of the A.C.L.U.'s program on freedom of religion and belief, told me. "I think we are likely to see a lot more blatant religious favoritism by school officials who feel emboldened by the decision."

This comes at a moment when, for the first time, a minority of Americans belong to a church, synagogue or mosque — only 47 percent in 2020, down from 70 percent in 1999. The number of nonbelievers is on the rise, with roughly one in four Americans identifying as atheist, agnostic or "nothing in particular." Belief in God also fell to an all-time low in 2022, with 81 percent of Americans believing in God, down from 98 percent in the 1950s.

This trend is surely part of what drives the resurgent Christian right, and it may well even be on the minds of the current conservative majority on the Supreme Court, five of whom are Catholics and one of whom was raised Catholic but attends an Episcopal church. With their brand of religious dogma losing its purchase, they're imposing it on the country themselves.

[Continues . . . (https://archive.ph/vgovi)]

^The description, "Stinking bastard authoritarians" is well taken. Were I writing the commentary, I might not have used such polite adjectives.

I assume that we are talking about those creepy evangelical Christians here? They seem to be of a worse kind than that what we've got over here.

You seem to be forgetting, my holy virtue steadfastly trumps your meager insignificance.

Separation of church and state is a notion I do not support.

I see it as impossible to enforce.

A person cannot shut off half his thinking when entering a political office.

I also believe that the teaching of all religions should be mandated.

We are duty bound to show our children the goods and evils of religions.

They should learn as early as possible to reject the homophobia and misogyny of our more vile religions.

All moral people will agree.

Regards
DL

Who does any thinking in a political office?

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on August 08, 2022, 04:35:46 PMSeparation of church and state is a notion I do not support.

I see it as impossible to enforce.

A person cannot shut off half his thinking when entering a political office.

I also believe that the teaching of all religions should be mandated.

We are duty bound to show our children the goods and evils of religions.

They should learn as early as possible to reject the homophobia and misogyny of our more vile religions.

All moral people will agree.

Regards
DL

The answer is simple. Don't let believers hold office. If they are conflicted they shouldn't be allowed to stand.

Quote from: Tank on August 08, 2022, 06:03:51 PM

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on August 08, 2022, 04:35:46 PMSeparation of church and state is a notion I do not support.

I see it as impossible to enforce.

A person cannot shut off half his thinking when entering a political office.

I also believe that the teaching of all religions should be mandated.

We are duty bound to show our children the goods and evils of religions.

They should learn as early as possible to reject the homophobia and misogyny of our more vile religions.

All moral people will agree.

Regards
DL

The answer is simple. Don't let believers hold office. If they are conflicted they shouldn't be allowed to stand.

What conflict, as God is never debated by governments.

Believing or not has nothing to do with a politician doing his job.

Like in most work places, the religious are just asked to keep their Gods out of the work place.

If you want to stop evil, how about the satanic Christian church that funded the Ugandan Kill the Gays bill.

Now if we had a morality test based on equality to weed out political homophobes and the misogynous, ---- sign me up.

Regards
DL
 

What planet are you from?
Does this planet's atmosphere get you high?

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on August 08, 2022, 10:26:57 PM

Quote from: Tank on August 08, 2022, 06:03:51 PM

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on August 08, 2022, 04:35:46 PMSeparation of church and state is a notion I do not support.

I see it as impossible to enforce.

A person cannot shut off half his thinking when entering a political office.

I also believe that the teaching of all religions should be mandated.

We are duty bound to show our children the goods and evils of religions.

They should learn as early as possible to reject the homophobia and misogyny of our more vile religions.

All moral people will agree.

Regards
DL

The answer is simple. Don't let believers hold office. If they are conflicted they shouldn't be allowed to stand.

What conflict, as God is never debated by governments.

Believing or not has nothing to do with a politician doing his job.

Like in most work places, the religious are just asked to keep their Gods out of the work place.

If you want to stop evil, how about the satanic Christian church that funded the Ugandan Kill the Gays bill.

Now if we had a morality test based on equality to weed out political homophobes and the misogynous, ---- sign me up.

Regards
DL
 

The conflict of insanity vs sanity. At the end of the day believers are self delusional. I don't want that sort of person running the government of any country. But as there are so many nutters I suppose some will slip through.

Quote from: Tank on August 09, 2022, 08:13:49 AM

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on August 08, 2022, 10:26:57 PM

Quote from: Tank on August 08, 2022, 06:03:51 PM

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on August 08, 2022, 04:35:46 PMSeparation of church and state is a notion I do not support.

I see it as impossible to enforce.

A person cannot shut off half his thinking when entering a political office.

I also believe that the teaching of all religions should be mandated.

We are duty bound to show our children the goods and evils of religions.

They should learn as early as possible to reject the homophobia and misogyny of our more vile religions.

All moral people will agree.

Regards
DL

The answer is simple. Don't let believers hold office. If they are conflicted they shouldn't be allowed to stand.

What conflict, as God is never debated by governments.

Believing or not has nothing to do with a politician doing his job.

Like in most work places, the religious are just asked to keep their Gods out of the work place.

If you want to stop evil, how about the satanic Christian church that funded the Ugandan Kill the Gays bill.

Now if we had a morality test based on equality to weed out political homophobes and the misogynous, ---- sign me up.

Regards
DL
 

The conflict of insanity vs sanity. At the end of the day believers are self delusional. I don't want that sort of person running the government of any country. But as there are so many nutters I suppose some will slip through.

When American's, a dumbed down people, elect media stars instead of professional politicians, what do you expect?

Regards
DL

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on September 14, 2022, 09:17:02 PMWhen American's, a dumbed down people, elect media stars instead of professional politicians, what do you expect?

Regards
DL

By the way, you have 4 spelling errors...
...Speaking of "poor communication ability."

I offer my sympathy to you too.
 :reading:


Regards
M-F-er

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on September 14, 2022, 09:17:02 PM

Quote from: Tank on August 09, 2022, 08:13:49 AM

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on August 08, 2022, 10:26:57 PM

Quote from: Tank on August 08, 2022, 06:03:51 PM

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on August 08, 2022, 04:35:46 PMSeparation of church and state is a notion I do not support.

I see it as impossible to enforce.

A person cannot shut off half his thinking when entering a political office.

I also believe that the teaching of all religions should be mandated.

We are duty bound to show our children the goods and evils of religions.

They should learn as early as possible to reject the homophobia and misogyny of our more vile religions.

All moral people will agree.

Regards
DL

The answer is simple. Don't let believers hold office. If they are conflicted they shouldn't be allowed to stand.

What conflict, as God is never debated by governments.

Believing or not has nothing to do with a politician doing his job.

Like in most work places, the religious are just asked to keep their Gods out of the work place.

If you want to stop evil, how about the satanic Christian church that funded the Ugandan Kill the Gays bill.

Now if we had a morality test based on equality to weed out political homophobes and the misogynous, ---- sign me up.

Regards
DL
 

The conflict of insanity vs sanity. At the end of the day believers are self delusional. I don't want that sort of person running the government of any country. But as there are so many nutters I suppose some will slip through.

When American's, a dumbed down people, elect media stars instead of professional politicians, what do you expect?

Regards
DL

 in my opinion vthe professional politicians are no more skilled than the media stars.

Quote from: billy rubin on September 14, 2022, 10:08:49 PM...

 in my opinion vthe professional politicians are no more skilled than the media stars.

You can hardly tell them apart now. More so on the right wing.