Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 07, 2012, 08:58:25 PM
You know if you're a theist, that really isn't a problem with us, there are a couple of regular posters here who do generally well despite having very different beliefs about the whole religious issue.
Would you mind saying why you feel that IDers might be right?
But yeah, maybe it would be best to describe a bit of your background so we can better know where you're coming from and whether or not you're a troll, intentional or not.
I think I would call myself a 'Seeker Agnostic' from how everyone else describes themselves in here. I have church friends who have given me Creationist material and websites to go to , and because im at the stage that im open minded and on a truth search, im willing to listen to what they have to say although with scrutiny. Same for Dawkins and Hitchens. As far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.
Frankly, ive never come to a Forum before where ive had a label immediatly slapped on my back , as forcefully as this one ; its almost like I was expected to come in here with guns a-blazing denouncing I.D., Creationists, and Theists with a vengence . I was taught to respect others even if their ideology is different from mine , so, I hope no one will mind if i dont fly off the wall toward Theists or call them F. bombs because some of my friends i hang with are Christians and Muslim . While i see some things wrong with their religion, Im not prepared to act militant toward them or what they have found peace in. I would like to know if theres a book available which counters the statements that Theists typically give when talking about I.D. .
A good info-byte site I would recommend is http://www.talkorigins.org/ (http://www.talkorigins.org/) if you're looking for why creationism is wrong. It goes into biological, geological and cosmological reasons.
Quote.I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.
I find this to be a bit odd because have you ever considered how many places in the universe that aren't good for us to thrive?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 07, 2012, 10:57:33 PM
A good info-byte site I would recommend is http://www.talkorigins.org/ (http://www.talkorigins.org/) if you're looking for why creationism is wrong. It goes into biological, geological and cosmological reasons.
Quote.I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.
I find this to be a bit odd because have you ever considered how many places in the universe that aren't good for us to thrive?
Thanks for the talkorigins site. Ill try it.
I find it odd because from what science has discovered about the known universe, it is a very hostile place elsewhere ... even within our own solar system and at relatively close distance to Earth.
QuoteI haven't arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.
Coincidence?? The planet didn't pop into homely existence for us to enjoy, we evolved to be suited to our environment.
We are here, senscient, to comment on our own surroundings because we exist. Where else could we be?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 07, 2012, 10:48:24 PMI think I would call myself a 'Seeker Agnostic' from how everyone else describes themselves in here. I have church friends who have given me Creationist material and websites to go to , and because im at the stage that im open minded and on a truth search, im willing to listen to what they have to say although with scrutiny.
I encourage you to investigate the claims made by Creationists as rigorously as you can. Check their assertions, and compare them to what scientists who actually work in the various fields say regarding these topics. I've spent a lot of time educating myself regarding Creationist claims, and not to put too fine a point on it, I've found them to be consistently inaccurate if not downright deceptive. Austin Cline has written a brief description of Creationist tactics (http://atheism.about.com/od/creationismcreationists/a/CreationistTactics.htm). He covers some of the main points, but I wouldn't say that his description is exhaustive. Feel free to post questions here that might arise as you read through the Creationist material. We have a whole section devoted to Creationism/Intelligent Design (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?board=3.0) where such questions would be quite appropriate.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 07, 2012, 10:48:24 PMAs far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.
Why would anybody think that life might arise and exist in an environment in which it was impossible?
QuoteFrom Douglas Adams: "42.2: The origin of god (puddle's view)": (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDC_NcihiV8)
". . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' "
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 07, 2012, 10:48:24 PMFrankly, ive never come to a Forum before where ive had a label immediatly slapped on my back , as forcefully as this one ; its almost like I was expected to come in here with guns a-blazing denouncing I.D., Creationists, and Theists with a vengence .
I don't know if you read the link I supplied earlier in this thread to the description of concern trolling (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-concern-trolling.htm). If you did, you may understand why
Tank and I suspect that is what you are here for. Most atheist people who join here don't come in "with guns a-blazing," but neither do they immediately start asking questions that most of us have heard repeatedly coming from Christians and Creationists. You implied in one of your posts that you had an atheist upbringing. You also said that you live in a small town in the south. As an atheist in that environment, one would think that you had heard these sorts of questions repeatedly yourself, and would have made your peace with them one way or another long since. How are you enjoying your visit to the northwest, by the way?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 07, 2012, 10:48:24 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 07, 2012, 08:58:25 PM
You know if you're a theist, that really isn't a problem with us, there are a couple of regular posters here who do generally well despite having very different beliefs about the whole religious issue.
Would you mind saying why you feel that IDers might be right?
But yeah, maybe it would be best to describe a bit of your background so we can better know where you're coming from and whether or not you're a troll, intentional or not.
I think I would call myself a 'Seeker Agnostic' from how everyone else describes themselves in here. I have church friends who have given me Creationist material and websites to go to , and because im at the stage that im open minded and on a truth search, im willing to listen to what they have to say although with scrutiny. Same for Dawkins and Hitchens. As far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.
Frankly, ive never come to a Forum before where ive had a label immediatly slapped on my back , as forcefully as this one ; its almost like I was expected to come in here with guns a-blazing denouncing I.D., Creationists, and Theists with a vengence . I was taught to respect others even if their ideology is different from mine , so, I hope no one will mind if i dont fly off the wall toward Theists or call them F. bombs because some of my friends i hang with are Christians and Muslim . While i see some things wrong with their religion, Im not prepared to act militant toward them or what they have found peace in. I would like to know if theres a book available which counters the statements that Theists typically give when talking about I.D. .
And what have you learned from this experience?
Quote from: TankQuote from: SA
Frankly, ive never come to a Forum before where ive had a label immediatly slapped on my back , as forcefully as this one ; its almost like I was expected to come in here with guns a-blazing denouncing I.D., Creationists, and Theists with a vengence . I was taught to respect others even if their ideology is different from mine , so, I hope no one will mind if i dont fly off the wall toward Theists or call them F. bomb....
And what have you learned from this experience?
Ive discovered that some people can be immediately presumptuous .
EDIT. Fixed quotes - Tank
Quote from: Recusant on January 08, 2012, 01:10:53 AM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 07, 2012, 10:48:24 PMI think I would call myself a 'Seeker Agnostic' from how everyone else describes themselves in here. I have church friends who have given me Creationist material and websites to go to , and because im at the stage that im open minded and on a truth search, im willing to listen to what they have to say although with scrutiny.
I encourage you to investigate the claims made by Creationists as rigorously as you can. Check their assertions, and compare them to what scientists who actually work in the various fields say regarding these topics. I've spent a lot of time educating myself regarding Creationist claims, and not to put too fine a point on it, I've found them to be consistently inaccurate if not downright deceptive. Austin Cline has written a brief description of Creationist tactics (http://atheism.about.com/od/creationismcreationists/a/CreationistTactics.htm). He covers some of the main points, but I wouldn't say that his description is exhaustive. Feel free to post questions here that might arise as you read through the Creationist material. We have a whole section devoted to Creationism/Intelligent Design (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?board=3.0) where such questions would be quite appropriate.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 07, 2012, 10:48:24 PMAs far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.
Why would anybody think that life might arise and exist in an environment in which it was impossible?
QuoteFrom Douglas Adams: "42.2: The origin of god (puddle's view)": (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDC_NcihiV8)
". . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' "
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 07, 2012, 10:48:24 PMFrankly, ive never come to a Forum before where ive had a label immediatly slapped on my back , as forcefully as this one ; its almost like I was expected to come in here with guns a-blazing denouncing I.D., Creationists, and Theists with a vengence .
I don't know if you read the link I supplied earlier in this thread to the description of concern trolling (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-concern-trolling.htm). If you did, you may understand why Tank and I suspect that is what you are here for. Most atheist people who join here don't come in "with guns a-blazing," but neither do they immediately start asking questions that most of us have heard repeatedly coming from Christians and Creationists. You implied in one of your posts that you had an atheist upbringing. You also said that you live in a small town in the south. As an atheist in that environment, one would think that you had heard these sorts of questions repeatedly yourself, and would have made your peace with them one way or another long since. How are you enjoying your visit to the northwest, by the way?
Are you saying when we consider all the required LIfe enabling parameters ,collectively and working in unison, that are required for our existence on earth...that it should not surprise us or that it should but to only a small degree ?
Youve got me mixed up with someone else...im not on a trip to the Northwest and ive never been to the Northwest in my life.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on January 07, 2012, 11:41:03 PM
QuoteI haven't arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.
Coincidence?? The planet didn't pop into homely existence for us to enjoy, we evolved to be suited to our environment.
We are here, senscient, to comment on our own surroundings because we exist. Where else could we be?
Unfortunatly our cosmologists are only just able to discover distant planets now. They certainly don't know what is or isn't on them.
We really only have a clue about the current state of our own solar system. Don't even know if there was ever life on Mars or Venus.
from a natural perspective; if the environmental requirements for life to exist were not in place on earth then life simply wouldn't have existed and we wouldn't be around to be talking about it.
We also do not know nearly enough about even the known universe to make any claims about Earth being the only life sustaining planet. NASA is increasingly frequently finding suspected earth like planets that are too far for us to travel to right now.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 08, 2012, 03:18:35 PMAre you saying when we consider all the required LIfe enabling parameters ,collectively and working in unison, that are required for our existence on earth...that it should not surprise us or that it should but to only a small degree ?
I do not see why it should come as a surprise that life has arisen in a location where it is possible for life to arise.
I would like to ask you a question in return: Do you have any reason to think that it's extremely unlikely that life will arise in an environment in which it is possible?
It is to be expected that there are a lot of places in the universe that would suit us just fine.
Perhaps without malaria carrying mosquitoes and large animals that eat us.
My continent has vast areas that aren't really suitable for human life.
Antarctica, going there is in some ways is like going to the moon, it obviously wasn't designed with us in mind.
Why is so much of the Earth apparently designed for fish or bacteria?
The simplest explanation is people who discover and promote intelligent design are dishonest, those that accept it are gullible. I'm not sure if considering these people as truly deluded is giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Dawkin's book climbing mount improbable covers ID well.
If I just rolled 1,000 dice it would be kind of ridiculous looking at the result and saying wow! that's astounding the odds of that result are astronomical. It's happened at least once that the dice have landed in such a way that life becomes aware of the odds, but that doesn't imply someone rigged the game. If he had why did he toss the dice trillions of trillions of times elsewhere without throwing the winning numbers?
I'm also of the strong opinion that where ever life is possible, it's inevitable given the conditions necessary for it are stable enough.
Carbon, which is what allows the long complex molecular chains of organic chemistry, is one of the most abundant atoms in the universe.
Based on the stranger forms of life on Earth, the so called extremophiles, it's possible to speculate that even planets that aren't earth-like in any way could harbour life. They could be feeding off other forms of energy instead of that of a close star. The goldilocks zone isn't really that much of a necessity and I'm basing that on the assumption that liquid water is better than any other chemical liquid for life to arise.
That is, if we're able to recognise them as life in the first place.
Since the universe is so large, the likelihood of there being other lifeforms is very high because of the sheer number of solar systems and planets.
The weirdest thing about life (the ones that are commonly recognised as life by us) IMO is that it works against entropy, though it's not in violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. There's nothing ultra special about life to make any natural explanation not good enough or miraculous enough to warrant a supernatural explanation.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 07, 2012, 10:48:24 PM
As far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.
We have only explored a very small percentage of the universe. We as a society are still very ignorant of what is out there. From a statistical stand point, it's likely there are other planets in the universe capable of supporting life similar to that on earth.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 08, 2012, 10:40:30 PM
I'm also of the strong opinion that where ever life is possible, it's inevitable given the conditions necessary for it are stable enough.
I would agree with this. Although it hasn't been proven yet, and I don't believe it to be true, I would be surprised if this were to be proven to be untrue.
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on January 08, 2012, 10:40:55 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 07, 2012, 10:48:24 PM
As far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.
We have only explored a very small percentage of the universe. We as a society are still very ignorant of what is out there. From a statistical stand point, it's likely there are other planets in the universe capable of supporting life similar to that on earth.
Agreed. Billions. And we won't EVER meet any of them.
We've been capable of conceiving of alien life for, let's say, 4000 years. And if our race (and it's space-faring intelligence) lasts for another, say, 20,000 years the, that's long enough for the
light from the nearest 4700 stars in our own galaxy to reach us - let alone a ship carrying chocolates to say "hello". So, there might have been billions of intelligent alien species come and gone before us, somewhere, and there may be billions after us. But the chances of two existing within even 10,000 light years, and within 10,000 years of each other are so infinitesimal as to be negligable. Time to face our oblivion, people!
Why are we here, now? Because we exist to percieve it. And the same question has probably been asked a billion times before.
"Time to face our oblivion, people!"
I would not call our conscious awareness and the far reaches of the vast and plentiful galaxy oblivion. It may appear to be oblivion because of the enormous distances and times that are difficult to perceive. I am not of the mind that this universe is akin to oblivion. It is replete with all sorts of perceivable and unperceivable activity. I would be even more excited to be able to witness the unfolding of the universe in geological time to see the whirling masses of gasses and dust become stars to see those stars draw in orbiting planets for those planets to develop into solar systems. To see in real time the whirling arrangement of galaxies. To see in a snapshot the genesis of life spring forth from nothing but colliding atoms into a thriving network of life. This to me is the very opposite of oblivion it is a great and wonderful landscape to be explored and understood.
All of this though I think is not helpful to original poster who is searching for answers. This intergalactic talk of potential life on other planets does not help the individual seeking answers to questions regarding their own existence. To that I say that you have to trust what you can see. You have to trust to a certain degree your common sense. If you strip away all the filler and historical allusions in any religion at the end of the day they will have you believing in ghosts and magic.
When I say oblivion, that's not to take anything away from the beauty and splendour of the universe - I'm its biggest fan. I just mean to say that the human race is doomed to its solitary and short-lived existence. We won't be remembered - or even known at all outside our puny solar system. And once we're gone, no legacy, nothing...oblivion.
The notion that we won't be remembered or known outside of our own solar system is only speculation on your part. Perhaps there is a super intelligent alien craft or message on its way right now. Eventually the sun will burn too big for this planet to withstand, but our intelligence or products of our intelligence may live on for millions of years beyond that in the form of messages. Oblivion and doom seem to be very pessimistic words. I mean human life is only hundreds of thousands of years old, we are one of the best creatures at adaptation to conditions on and now outside of our own planet and if we apply our advanced intellect the right way there is no telling how long or how far the reach of humanity will go on. Pioneer 10 went deep space and was transmitting via radio at 12 billion KM or over 7.4 billion miles away there is no way to tell how far it is now or how far it will go. This is something that we've been able to accomplish in such an insignificant amount of cosmological time that it's impossible for me to look at the nature of the universe with anything but beaming optimism. The distances are vast but at one time in our meager history the span of the Atlantic ocean was pretty vast too...
Quote from: Twentythree on January 09, 2012, 09:47:00 PM
The notion that we won't be remembered or known outside of our own solar system is only speculation on your part.
Indeed. At least equally as valid as your speculation to the contrary.
Quote from: Twentythree on January 09, 2012, 09:47:00 PM
Perhaps there is a super intelligent alien craft or message on its way right now.
Mmmm, Perhaps. I'd like nothing more.
Quote from: Twentythree on January 09, 2012, 09:47:00 PMEventually the sun will burn too big for this planet to withstand, but our intelligence or products of our intelligence may live on for millions of years beyond that in the form of messages.
They may do, with the likelihood that they'll never be recieved/understood by another species.
Quote from: Twentythree on January 09, 2012, 09:47:00 PMOblivion and doom seem to be very pessimistic words.
One has no reason, other than blind optimism, to consider our fate to be anything other than oblivion. I'm not sad, it's just what I consider to be more likely. Optimistic desire is not, for me, sufficient grounds for belief.
Quote from: Twentythree on January 09, 2012, 09:47:00 PMI mean human life is only hundreds of thousands of years old, we are one of the best creatures at adaptation to conditions
Compared to what?
Quote from: Twentythree on January 09, 2012, 09:47:00 PM...if we apply our advanced intellect the right way there is no telling how long or how far the reach of humanity will go on. Pioneer 10 went deep space and was transmitting via radio at 12 billion KM or over 7.4 billion miles away there is no way to tell how far it is now or how far it will go.
These distances are insignificant in astronomical terms. I'm not saying it's impossible; given infinite time our messages
will reach another civilisation (if there are any). But the life supporting infrastructure of the universe as we know it may well be finite. There is no lottery on Earth that that gives worse odds, by many factors of magnitude (depending on your assumptions of the variables of the Drake equation (N = R* fp ne fl fi fc L)).
Quote from: Twentythree on January 09, 2012, 09:47:00 PMThis is something that we've been able to accomplish in such an insignificant amount of cosmological time that it's impossible for me to look at the nature of the universe with anything but beaming optimism.
Speculation on your part? On what do you base your optimism?
The fact is that the chances of us surviving long enough to develop the technology to leave the solar system AND being close enough to another species, AND existing at the same time are astronomically lower than the likelihood of meeting noone.
I'd like to hear what Struggling Atheist things of all the comments related to his last post in this thread.
As a related side question, I'd like to know what he meant by "raised atheist"...if that just means not in a church then I could better understand why some of this stuff may be new to him and seem like it is worth exploring (and everyone should figure it out for themselves even if it means exploring stuff that found to be nonsense).
Blind watchmaker by Richard dawkins is good for countering the "irredicubly complex" argument.