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India

Started by Ecurb Noselrub, January 16, 2023, 08:34:16 PM

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Ecurb Noselrub

This thread is a result of Asmo's interest in India, as expressed to me in the TNP thread. He wanted to hear more about it, so here goes. In 2003, 2004, and 2005 I visted India for about two weeks each time. The church I attended at the time was building/sponsoring orphanages among some tribal or lower caste peoples. I visited Bangalore and Guntur in the south, Visakhapatnam on the east coast, a village in the jungles of Odisha a bit more inland, and the major cities of Mumbai (Bombay), Dehli and Agra. More time was spent in the Odisha jungle because that is where a lot of work on the orphanage was done. It was an adventure getting there. We took a jeep to a river, then crossed the river by canoe, then rode on the back of motorcycles several miles to get to the village. It was totally remote and isolated. There are cobras and tigers in the area, as well as a violent Marxist group known as Naxolites. Fortunately, I avoided all of them.

My scariest moment in India was in a town in Odisha when we visited an orphanage. A radical Hindu group surrounded us and wanted to know why we were there. We tried to leave in our jeep but they prevented it. The police finally came, placed us under arrest, and then gave us the third degree in the police station, for the benefit of the television reporters. The mob was still outside. Once the mob disbursed about midnight, they took us to a railway station about 20 miles away and told us to leave. The police chief said "those people will kill you." I did not doubt him.

I mentioned in the TNP thread that I am allergic to Mumbai. The air was almost impossible to breathe - exhaust from a million cars and the stench of raw sewage filled the air. We drove by the largest slum in the world at the time - I could see inside and it looked like my idea of hell - dark streets, fires burning, people living in squalor, crapping and peeing in the open. I saw children living on top of garbage dumps - they would appear at my car door and look inside. Haunting.

On the positive side, the people are generally nice. But they stare at you, especially the lower classes, who had never seen someone who looked like us - white. Even the poor women are adorned colorfully in their saris. I like the food, generally, and there was some beautiful scenery. Obviously, buildings like the Taj Mahal in Agra or the Red Fort in Dehli, or some of the temples, are absolutely beautiful.

So, I am glad I went, but I would not want to live there under any set of circumstances. 

Dark Lightning

I'm not big on travel. I can get my pocket picked at home or abroad, but I have recourse if I'm in my own town. The wife and I went on a cruise that tied up in Ensenada. We stayed in the "safe" area. That was dumpy enough.

From what I see here, I have no interest whatsoever in India.

hermes2015

I haven't been to India, but visited Bangladesh some years ago so I could meet my partner's family. His father, dear deluded man, took a liking to me, and gave me an apartment in a building he owned. Bangladesh is a poor country, but I never felt unsafe walking anywhere in the capital.
"Eventually everything connects - people, ideas, objects. The quality of the connections is the key to quality per se."
― Charles Eames

Asmodean

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 16, 2023, 08:34:16 PMThis thread is a result of Asmo's interest in India, as expressed to me in the TNP thread. He wanted to hear more about it, so here goes. In 2003, 2004, and 2005 I visted India for about two weeks each time. The church I attended at the time was building/sponsoring orphanages among some tribal or lower caste peoples. I visited Bangalore and Guntur in the south, Visakhapatnam on the east coast, a village in the jungles of Odisha a bit more inland, and the major cities of Mumbai (Bombay), Dehli and Agra. More time was spent in the Odisha jungle because that is where a lot of work on the orphanage was done. It was an adventure getting there. We took a jeep to a river, then crossed the river by canoe, then rode on the back of motorcycles several miles to get to the village. It was totally remote and isolated. There are cobras and tigers in the area, as well as a violent Marxist group known as Naxolites. Fortunately, I avoided all of them.
Fascinating! What do people live off in those remote areas? I mean, I suppose they farm and hunt and such, but where does what money there is come from? I suppose it's difficult to sell goods without the proper infrastructure to do so and tourism... Sufficient hordes of tourists like paved roads, too.

QuoteMy scariest moment in India was in a town in Odisha when we visited an orphanage. A radical Hindu group surrounded us and wanted to know why we were there. We tried to leave in our jeep but they prevented it. The police finally came, placed us under arrest, and then gave us the third degree in the police station, for the benefit of the television reporters. The mob was still outside. Once the mob disbursed about midnight, they took us to a railway station about 20 miles away and told us to leave. The police chief said "those people will kill you." I did not doubt him.
Yeah... I've seen those "flash mobs" in a documentary or three - mostly about child labour in sweat shops. What was their beef with you lot though? I mean... visiting an orphanage does not sound... Mob-worthy?

QuoteI mentioned in the TNP thread that I am allergic to Mumbai. The air was almost impossible to breathe - exhaust from a million cars and the stench of raw sewage filled the air. We drove by the largest slum in the world at the time - I could see inside and it looked like my idea of hell - dark streets, fires burning, people living in squalor, crapping and peeing in the open. I saw children living on top of garbage dumps - they would appear at my car door and look inside. Haunting.
Yeah... To be poor in the country, where you live hand to mouth from whatever you manage to harvest or scavenge or hunt - or to be poor in a megacity where... There is that, but also opportunity for those lucky enough or ruthless enough to capitalise on it... Or so people think.

You know, I watched a Oxford debate of late, where they were talking about something largely unrelated (whether or not woke culture has gone too far. What? I'm me, after all.) There was this YouTube comedian there (Who I may not be giving the full credit, because that is all I "know" him from) who was talking about the younger generation and their climate change anxiety. He said something I agree with - that issue will largely be decided by the poor in Asia and Latin America. Their priorities lie in increased... If not prosperity, although certainly that too, then at the very least stability. They will take that "no matter" what it causes to be released into the atmosphere. And they should, in my honest opinion. "They" will work towards those ends while "we" sit around, complaining on the Internet, thinking "we're" changing the world. But I digress.

QuoteOn the positive side, the people are generally nice. But they stare at you, especially the lower classes, who had never seen someone who looked like us - white. Even the poor women are adorned colorfully in their saris. I like the food, generally, and there was some beautiful scenery. Obviously, buildings like the Taj Mahal in Agra or the Red Fort in Dehli, or some of the temples, are absolutely beautiful.
That's my thing. Were India less crowded, it would have been far higher on my to-visit list, and even as it is, it's not precisely low. It looks and sounds like a place worth experiencing.

thank you for sharing! It sounds like some interesting times. :smilenod:
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ecurb Noselrub

#4
Quote from: Asmodean on January 17, 2023, 08:13:04 AMFascinating! What do people live off in those remote areas? I mean, I suppose they farm and hunt and such, but where does what money there is come from? I suppose it's difficult to sell goods without the proper infrastructure to do so and tourism... Sufficient hordes of tourists like paved roads, too.

They lived off of rice, chicken, eggs, and whatever veggies they grew. They relied on the organization that was helping us for donations for the orphanage/school, and of course they bartered with other local villages for some things.

QuoteYeah... I've seen those "flash mobs" in a documentary or three - mostly about child labour in sweat shops. What was their beef with you lot though? I mean... visiting an orphanage does not sound... Mob-worthy?

It was because we were foreigners and connected with a church. The radical Hindus do not want anything non-Hindu or foreign in India. We tried to stay inconspicuous but it did not work. In the same area an Australian missionary and his two sons were burned to death while they slept in their jeep a few months before. The police chief knew what the mob was capable of.

QuoteThat's my thing. Were India less crowded, it would have been far higher on my to-visit list, and even as it is, it's not precisely low. It looks and sounds like a place worth experiencing.

Yes, I am glad I went, but if I ever go again, it will be just as a tourist and in nice hotels. I am over adventure.

billy rubin

radical hinduism has been rejuevenated in the current indian government. the repression in kashmir and elsewhere is a result


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

No one

Holy cow, naan gonna lie, i don't get the radicals beef with you.

Next time, maybe try to curry favor with them.

hermes2015

Quote from: No one on January 18, 2023, 01:49:24 AMHoly cow, naan gonna lie, i don't get the radicals beef with you.

Next time, maybe try to curry favor with them.

:lol:
"Eventually everything connects - people, ideas, objects. The quality of the connections is the key to quality per se."
― Charles Eames

Tank

If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: No one on January 18, 2023, 01:49:24 AMHoly cow, naan gonna lie, i don't get the radicals beef with you.

Next time, maybe try to curry favor with them.

See, this is why we like you, and why you are valuable.

Ecurb Noselrub

#10
Another impression from India is how crazy they drive. It's bad enough that they drive on the left side of the road (thanks to the British Empire), but there are so many cars and they drive crazy. I was sitting in the front passenger seat on a long trip and I think I had 5 heart attacks. How the whole thing doesn't result in a giant train wreck, I don't know.

Safety is not a high priority. Maybe that comes from so many people scrambling for limited resources, or the impossibility of regulating them, or just the idea from Hinduism that this world is not real. I don't know. At one of the orphanages I visited, they were having fireworks and games one night on some festival, and, of course, they don't have outside electrical outlets. So they got a long pole with a metal hook on one end and a connection on the other, hoisted it up to an electrical line (uninsulated) and hooked it, and connected their floodlights. Geeze. In Dehli the outside electrical lines looked like a mass of tangled spiders' webs at the point where they connected to buildings. I don't see how the whole place doesn't burn down or how they don't have continuous power outages. Maybe they do.

We were also taken one time to a sort of leper colony, but it was on the street of a city. These poor people had their hands eaten off by the disease. I had never seen the disease before, and it was shocking. 

India is set to become the most populous country in the world this year. It will be interesting to see if its development can keep up with its population. Otherwise, there will be a lot of misery.

Asmodean

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 18, 2023, 12:44:03 PMAnother impression from India is how crazy they drive.
I have heard a documentary filmmaker speculate that it may be because they have a different and rather more fatalistic view of "mortal danger" than "we" do. "If gods/the universe/fate wills it - I'll make it. If not... Not."

Do you think there is any truth to that, broadly speaking (As in, I'm sure you could find an occasional person holding that view in every country, but is it more prevalent in India?)

QuoteIt's bad enough that they drive on the left side of the road (thanks to the British Empire), but there are so many cars and they drive crazy. I was sitting in the front passenger seat on a long trip and I think I had 5 heart attacks. How the whole thing doesn't result in a giant train wreck, I don't know.
I've driven in many different places, and I think a lot of that comes down to being used to reading the local traffic. As in, if you drive in Paris every day, you get a certain intuition on how that *point* Frenchman is likely to behave in this *point* roundabout, and so you can... Avoid him. Meanwhile, to an outsider, it may look like pure traffic chaos.

QuoteIn Dehli the outside electrical lines looked like a mass of tangled spiders' webs at the point where they connected to buildings.
That is another thing I've seen that fascinates me. The engineer in me cringes and cries, but then the approach is... different. It doesn't seem to be based around nets localised to buildings or even blocks, but rather, nets localised to the streets. It can't be for the ease of maintenance... Pure lack of planning and/or resource management..? Or is there a reason beyond that?

QuoteWe were also taken one time to a sort of leper colony, but it was on the street of a city. These poor people had their hands eaten off by the disease. I had never seen the disease before, and it was shocking.
Do those exist in India to this day? Leprosy is treatable with antibiotics - a multiagent therapy, I believe, so one would think that there would be no need for colonies to stash one's lepers in to protect the wider population? Or do they have issues with drug resistant strains, perhaps?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2023, 08:51:27 AMI have heard a documentary filmmaker speculate that it may be because they have a different and rather more fatalistic view of "mortal danger" than "we" do. "If gods/the universe/fate wills it - I'll make it. If not... Not."

Do you think there is any truth to that, broadly speaking (As in, I'm sure you could find an occasional person holding that view in every country, but is it more prevalent in India?)

Yes, I think there is something like that with the population generally. It may be a combination of the Hindu world view and the poverty/over-population, but that is speculation. Life is sort of out of their control so they do not approach it with safety and longevity in mind. Their future is set, sometimes by their caste, and they can't do anything to change it. 

QuoteThat is another thing I've seen that fascinates me. The engineer in me cringes and cries, but then the approach is... different. It doesn't seem to be based around nets localised to buildings or even blocks, but rather, nets localised to the streets. It can't be for the ease of maintenance... Pure lack of planning and/or resource management..? Or is there a reason beyond that?

It may be sort of similar to the driving thing. Safety and order and such just do not seem to have a high priority. Things seemed to be "rigged" rather than engineered. It is the sum of a lot (and I mean a LOT) of people just doing what is necessary to get along that day with no thought of tomorrow. The general good of society is not really a consideration for many. And they don't have a scientific approach like you would. Again, maybe a result of the Hindu world view and 1.4 billion people.

QuoteDo those exist in India to this day? Leprosy is treatable with antibiotics - a multiagent therapy, I believe, so one would think that there would be no need for colonies to stash one's lepers in to protect the wider population? Or do they have issues with drug resistant strains, perhaps?

My last visit was almost 20 years ago, so things may have changed. But with so many poor people, I suspect that there simply aren't the resources and availability of medical care that we have in the West. I looked up the average lifespan, and in 2002-2006 it was 63.5, and now it is almost 70, so things appear to be getting better. Here is an article on it from WHO: https://www.who.int/india/news/detail/01-02-2022-supporting-leprosy-elimination-in-india

The poverty rate there has dropped to 16.4%, so it's getting better. https://www.theglobalstatistics.com/poverty-in-india-statistics-2021/   But that's still 228 million people, well above the population of any country in Europe.  Imagine that many poor people.


Ecurb Noselrub

#13
Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2023, 08:51:27 AMI have heard a documentary filmmaker speculate that it may be because they have a different and rather more fatalistic view of "mortal danger" than "we" do. "If gods/the universe/fate wills it - I'll make it. If not... Not."

Do you think there is any truth to that, broadly speaking (As in, I'm sure you could find an occasional person holding that view in every country, but is it more prevalent in India?)

Yes, I think there is something like that with the population generally. It may be a combination of the Hindu world view and the poverty/over-population, but that is speculation. Life is sort of out of their control so they do not approach it with safety and longevity in mind. Their future is set, sometimes by their caste, and they can't do anything to change it. 

QuoteThat is another thing I've seen that fascinates me. The engineer in me cringes and cries, but then the approach is... different. It doesn't seem to be based around nets localised to buildings or even blocks, but rather, nets localised to the streets. It can't be for the ease of maintenance... Pure lack of planning and/or resource management..? Or is there a reason beyond that?

It may be sort of similar to the driving thing. Safety and order and such just do not seem to have a high priority. Things seemed to be "rigged" rather than engineered. It is the sum of a lot (and I mean a LOT) of people just doing what is necessary to get along that day with no thought of tomorrow. The general good of society is not really a consideration for many. And they don't have a scientific approach like you would. Again, maybe a result of the Hindu world view and 1.4 billion people.

QuoteDo those exist in India to this day? Leprosy is treatable with antibiotics - a multiagent therapy, I believe, so one would think that there would be no need for colonies to stash one's lepers in to protect the wider population? Or do they have issues with drug resistant strains, perhaps?

I called it a "colony" but it was more like a bunch of homeless lepers living in a special place in the city (this was Guntur, I believe). My last visit was almost 20 years ago, so things may have changed. But with so many poor people, I suspect that there simply aren't the resources and availability of medical care that we have in the West. I looked up the average lifespan, and in 2002-2006 it was 63.5, and now it is almost 70, so things appear to be getting better. Here is an article on it from WHO: https://www.who.int/india/news/detail/01-02-2022-supporting-leprosy-elimination-in-india

The poverty rate there has dropped to 16.4%, so it's getting better. https://www.theglobalstatistics.com/poverty-in-india-statistics-2021/   But that's still 228 million people, well above the population of any country in Europe.  Imagine that many poor people.



Asmodean

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 19, 2023, 09:16:40 AMMy last visit was almost 20 years ago, so things may have changed. But with so many poor people, I suspect that there simply aren't the resources and availability of medical care that we have in the West. I looked up the average lifespan, and in 2002-2006 it was 63.5, and now it is almost 70, so things appear to be getting better. Here is an article on it from WHO: https://www.who.int/india/news/detail/01-02-2022-supporting-leprosy-elimination-in-india

The poverty rate there has dropped to 16.4%, so it's getting better. https://www.theglobalstatistics.com/poverty-in-india-statistics-2021/   But that's still 228 million people, well above the population of any country in Europe.  Imagine that many poor people.
That's a very good point - we are talking about vast populations here, combined with widespread poverty-related problems. While leprosy is generally very treatable in a Western hospital when it arises as like one case every now and never, it may be far less treatable when there are maybe several hundred people affected and if the area is poor and the central management is lacking, there may just not be enough drugs for everybody - and even if there are, there may be no way for people to know when to take them or to properly supplement the recovery with things like clean water and food.

63 year average lifespan is not appalling though. Yes, it's far higher in the wealthier areas of the world - and it's not precisely good in peacetime, but it does mean that for every person to pass away at the age of 40, someone must then pass away at the age of 86. (Or two people ataround 75, etc)

It's unfortuinate, really, but that's pretty much India's reputation, at least where I'm at. Rather than being the nation of Taj Mahal, the Jungle Book and a mix of cultures so rich and vibrant as to be overwhelming, it's the nation of shit in the streets, flash mobs, tech scammers, poor quality goods and lazy and/or corrupt and/or simply-overwhelmed central management. I suppose it's all those things - it just depends on where you happen to look.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.