Happy Atheist Forum

I find it hard to believe that there is no afterlife. There are a lot of reasons on why it doesn't make sense to me but here are a few:

[strike:pm257nzv]1. The Bible says so (haha just kidding!)[/strike:pm257nzv]

1. I don't see how our mind and brain could be the same thing. Does science really show that the brain is actually where "we" come from, or is it simply the CPU for the body? Where is our personality and consciousness actually located? Take a TV for instance. While a TV may have a picture that is being presented on one end, the actual TV itself is really just interpreting a signal that is projected from an external source. But what is the actual source in relation to the TV? This is the same way I believe our mind and brains work together. The brain is interfacing with the mind signal.

Meaning... that when we die our mind is simply disconnected from our body vehicle but our mind is still our mind.

2. Near Death Experiences - Many people say that these are simply errors from the brain and things like this, but I have read so much that discredits this in my view. What about people that have near death experiences where they gain information and are able to come back and predict events? Where did this "hidden" knowledge come from? Where did this foresight come from?

3. Reincarnation makes more sense to me than no afterlife. The idea of going through different forms of reality to perfect oneself seems way more logical, to me, than a pointless one-time reality. Why would we be here for one single experience if we could come back again and again and evolve to other realities that we could only dream of? It seems way more purposeful to actually evolve towards something that never dies, but rather grows and perfects itself with each new experience of life. I can not see how the universe could be so stupid as to kick as much ass as it does but not be able to allow people to continue progressing. Everything in life is a lesson and why does it all of a sudden stop when you die? Seems totally inconsistent to me.

I could go on and on, but these should be good to get the ball rolling.

I appreciate all your feedback on this.

Thanks!

Quote from: "slayerment"1. I don't see how our mind and brain could be the same thing. Does science really show that the brain is actually where "we" come from, or is it simply the CPU for the body?

CPU, HDD, RAM and a few other things. Science does show that "we" are defined by our brains. A simple example is personality changes due to brain trauma. So yes, in the end it all boils down to neurons, electricity and some chemistry.

Quote from: "slayerment"Where is our personality and consciousness actually located?

Personality is defined by the sum of our memories and experiences, so I don't think it is located in one center of the brain, but in multiple. Conciousness refers to level of activity in the brain.

Quote from: "slayerment"Take a TV for instance. While a TV may have a picture that is being presented on one end, the actual TV itself is really just interpreting a signal that is projected from an external source. But what is the actual source in relation to the TV? This is the same way I believe our mind and brains work together. The brain is interfacing with the mind signal.

I see what you mean but the brain is no radio antenna. As far as I know, the body is pretty much a closed circuit.

Quote from: "slayerment"Meaning... that when we die our mind is simply disconnected from our body vehicle but our mind is still our mind.

It's a nice theory, but I'm sorry, it holds no water.

Quote from: "slayerment"2. Near Death Experiences - Many people say that these are simply errors from the brain and things like this, but I have read so much that discredits this in my view. What about people that have near death experiences where they gain information and are able to come back and predict events? Where did this "hidden" knowledge come from? Where did this foresight come from?

You have to always include the lies-factor in this kind of statements. If I told you I predicted the financial crisis in detail, would you believe me? It's wery easy to predict what has already happened. As for people who have some sort of awareness during NDE, well, the fact that they came back says that their brain wasn't dead. Thus, some activity in it was possible and maybe that was enough for that person to hear or see to some degree. I'll let this one rest at that, since my knowledge of NDE is as limited as it gets.

Quote from: "slayerment"3. Reincarnation makes more sense to me than no afterlife. The idea of going through different forms of reality to perfect oneself seems way more logical, to me, than a pointless one-time reality. Why would we be here for one single experience if we could come back again and again and evolve to other realities that we could only dream of?

Why would we come back again and again? Where is the logic in it? The logical conclusion is dead = no longer living, not no longer human. There are many holes in every reincarnation theory I've heard too. And each one is built on suppositions, not on ANY form of science. No, I do think I'm right when I say that this pointless one-time reality is all you get.

Quote from: "slayerment"It seems way more purposeful to actually evolve towards something that never dies, but rather grows and perfects itself with each new experience of life.

There we go! It comes down to wanting a "greater purpose". There IS purpose in life. Boiled down to the bones, it's to continue the existence of the specie, to take part in the food chain, to fertilize the plants with your crap and to be eaten by things when you die. (Or before, should the food chain demand it) Other than that, what you live for is up to you.

Quote from: "slayerment"I can not see how the universe could be so stupid as to kick as much ass as it does but not be able to allow people to continue progressing. Everything in life is a lesson and why does it all of a sudden stop when you die? Seems totally inconsistent to me.

Un-fair, eh? We learn until we die and then it's curtains down.

Quote from: "slayerment"I appreciate all your feedback on this.

Here you go.  

Great questions... these are the types of questions I hope my son asks one day.

We are the sum of our life experiences.  Period.  We get no input other than that which we experience or view with our eyes, feel with our hands, smell with our noses, hear with our ears, and taste with our mouths (mmm... pumpkin pie...).  While a TV has an atenna or a cable box that brings information from far away into it, we don't have that luxury.  We must experience it firsthand.  Nothing is downloaded to our brains from afar.  Bummer... because if it could, we could find a way to program ourselves rather than attend school for years.

As for NDEs, I'm not aware of cases where people "came back from the dead" and were able to predict the future.  Nice job if you can get it.  Our brains don't die immediately when our heart does.  Neurons continue to fire for awhile, thus the ability to "come back" from the dead.  They are not truly dead until the brain and heart both stop.  And imagination can flare during that "down time" between life and death.  If someone believes enough that they can have an afterlife and experience, there's your answer.  I believe science will catch up with this area in time... it is constantly under study.

I remember seeing the movie "Defending Your Life" with Meryl Streep and Albert Brooks and thinking, "Wow... that would be cool if that concept were true."  I mean really... living your life then being judged on how you handled the situations life hands you and if you succeed, you move on to a higher plateau, as yet undefined.  If not, you go back and try again.  Then again, I'm a video game player and that's how games work, so of COURSE that appeals to me.

In fact, no one knows if reincarnation is true or if heaven is true or if nothing is true because no one can come back and tell us for sure in a way that can be scientifically tested and verified.  Until then, it's all conjecture, speculation, and desire that color our choice of belief.  For me, I choose nothing.  It's like watching my kid color, and he's horrible at coloring.  So he'll do a crappy job and say, "Oh well, I'll just start over."  

Life isn't like that.  You have to make the most of the time you have while you're here, live with your mistakes, try to make it betterm, and deal with the consequences.  There are no dress rehearsals or do overs.  That actually encourages me to try my best to make the  most of life NOW, rather than dream of how things will be after I die.

Great conversation!  

Quote from: "Asmodean"CPU, HDD, RAM and a few other things. Science does show that "we" are defined by our brains. A simple example is personality changes due to brain trauma. So yes, in the end it all boils down to neurons, electricity and some chemistry.

HAHA...
i tried to explain this to my sister-in-law and she now makes fun of me. she likes to say "i pray to the robots".
 :borg:  

Quote from: "jcm"HAHA...
i tried to explain this to my sister-in-law and she now makes fun of me. she likes to say "i pray to the robots".
 :borg:  :beer:

Methink I need to buy some extra RAM chips. I'm beginning to be very slow on bootup every morning with this new engineering software that's being installed  

Quote from: "Asmodean"Methink I need to buy some extra RAM chips. I'm beginning to be very slow on bootup every morning with this new engineering software that's being installed  

Same for me. Only after I've got my first coffee of the day, I become human again.

Anyway I really like this topic. For many years I did indeed believe in reincarnation. Even nowadays I'm still not 100% convinced that we don't live another life after death. Several years ago there was a BBC documentary about reincarnation, in which 4 people brought back their previous lives' memories with hypnosis. After that they investigated how much of what they remembered corresponded with real facts it was really amazing how many details that the 4 people remembered were actually correct.

Hmm... why don't I believe in an afterlife?

'Cause I'm smrt!  ;)

There's no reason to believe in an afterlife.  That's just wishful thinking, imagine a world where people really seized the day.  Where they lived as if this was the only life they were gonna have.  Maybe we wouldn't be destroying every other species, and polluting the oceans thinking someone is going to save us.  I remember I used to watch those late night shows of people who had NDE's.  If they all saw the same thing it might be more convincing.

I don't know and I don't really care what will happen after I'm dead. I've been "dead" for ages, before I was born and that didn't bother me either.

Quote from: "Tom62"I've been "dead" for ages, before I was born and that didn't bother me either.

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The whole matter, pattern, information thing is really tricky.  My personality is made up of information, but that information always requires a physical carrier.  It's part of the nature of the material.  So if the body that carries my pattern or information dies, I die too.  If it gets injured permanently, my memory will be affected.  As far as I can see there is absolutely no reason to believe my consciousness will somehow automatically transfer to new form after death.  Also only occasionally disturbing to me is the fact that the rest of the universe will cease to exist to me when I die, but apparently go on existing.  I am pretty sure that the universe really doesn't care much about my opinion on these matters, whether or not it makes sense to me, or if I develop a higher intelligence or moral aptitude along the way.  The universe seems pretty much to only be concerned with conserving matter and energy, enforcing the laws of gravity and other such physical norms.  The other concerns seem to be anthropomorphically and evolutionarily induced.  I suppose I'll find out when I'm dead.  Or not.

Quote from: "slayerment"I find it hard to believe that there is no afterlife. There are a lot of reasons on why it doesn't make sense to me but here are a few:

[strike:e9zz9oaf]1. The Bible says so (haha just kidding!)[/strike:e9zz9oaf]

1. I don't see how our mind and brain could be the same thing. Does science really show that the brain is actually where "we" come from, or is it simply the CPU for the body? Where is our personality and consciousness actually located? Take a TV for instance. While a TV may have a picture that is being presented on one end, the actual TV itself is really just interpreting a signal that is projected from an external source. But what is the actual source in relation to the TV? This is the same way I believe our mind and brains work together. The brain is interfacing with the mind signal.

Meaning... that when we die our mind is simply disconnected from our body vehicle but our mind is still our mind.

The brain not only engendered the mind but hosts it. The mind cannot survive without the brain therefore when it ceases to exist so will the mind. Most people cannot fathom this, the same way they cannot imagine what it was like before they were born, but one day it will happen.

Quote2. Near Death Experiences - Many people say that these are simply errors from the brain and things like this, but I have read so much that discredits this in my view. What about people that have near death experiences where they gain information and are able to come back and predict events? Where did this "hidden" knowledge come from? Where did this foresight come from?

This is irrelevant in the case of an afterlife. Even though we may not know this answer, with enough studying it can be explained psychologically, I guarantee it.

Quote3. Reincarnation makes more sense to me than no afterlife. The idea of going through different forms of reality to perfect oneself seems way more logical, to me, than a pointless one-time reality. Why would we be here for one single experience if we could come back again and again and evolve to other realities that we could only dream of? It seems way more purposeful to actually evolve towards something that never dies, but rather grows and perfects itself with each new experience of life. I can not see how the universe could be so stupid as to kick as much ass as it does but not be able to allow people to continue progressing. Everything in life is a lesson and why does it all of a sudden stop when you die? Seems totally inconsistent to me.

Well did you save any knowledge from your previous life? If not then you relearned it all. Why would it make sense to have to constantly relearn everything in every life?

We are insignificant to the universe. The only reason why we are were is thanks to the vicissitudes. When you die physically you are completely dead because there is no spirit. There is no evidence of a soul. Even a supernatural fact would have to be consistent. So why bother believing in souls if all gods are myth as well? The only reason for believing in a soul would be because you feel it is right. But that can be broken down psychologically. It is natural for humans to cling to hope. But it is far more brave to embrace truth.

For arguments sake lets say souls exist. Then what exactly are they? Unique individual forms of energy and life? If so then there is no room for thinking and feeling in the life of a soul should it have no body to dwell inside. Trees are alive. Do they have souls? I would much prefer to be dead than to be a tree.

The phrase "life after death" is a contradiction in terms. :)  What I'm trying to say, clumsily, is that we'd still need to figure out what makes us conscious on a very basic level (and I don't mean what enables thought, you understand) because without that the idea of human consciousness is reduced to a mere assumption. Ie. there's nothing to suggest that it's unique to the brain and could realistically be present in everything, at all levels.

Quote from: "Tom62"

Quote from: "Asmodean"Methink I need to buy some extra RAM chips. I'm beginning to be very slow on bootup every morning with this new engineering software that's being installed  

Same for me. Only after I've got my first coffee of the day, I become human again.

Anyway I really like this topic. For many years I did indeed believe in reincarnation. Even nowadays I'm still not 100% convinced that we don't live another life after death. Several years ago there was a BBC documentary about reincarnation, in which 4 people brought back their previous lives' memories with hypnosis. After that they investigated how much of what they remembered corresponded with real facts it was really amazing how many details that the 4 people remembered were actually correct.

Your brain is capable of storing way more information than you think.  Although you may not be able to recall something from your past, it doesn't mean it's not still in your brain.  About 10+ years ago I was watching a show on TV which was investigating reincarnation and hypnosis.  In one case a gentleman recalled (in vivid detail) under hypnosis a battle in the Napoleonic war which was verified to be accurate.  He had never been to Europe or fought in any war, but he was subconsciously dictating a specific event with action, names and rank, and description of the terrain.  After thorough investigation it was discovered that there was a book of historical fiction depicting the exact event from the account of a fictional lieutenant during the time of Napoleon.  The man who was under hypnosis initially had no recollection of having ever read the book when he was conscious but was able to recollect it after a short time.

Quote from: "DennisK"Your brain is capable of storing way more information than you think.

Absolutely. The human brain can contain dozens of sentient personalities, all with their own bases of knowledge and memories. Amazing thing, the brain.

I don't believe in the afterlife because I was able to battle my catholic indoctrination with reason.  I have always been a person of logic and used it to knock down that giant wall blocking the light of the truth.  Once I realized that religion was based on fear and it was pro ignorant and a means of control, I was able to discount all their teachings using reason.

There is an innate part of my brain that wants to believe in the supernatural, however, being a predominantly logical person, it makes it extremely difficult.

Quote from: "DennisK"There is an innate part of my brain that wants to believe in the supernatural, however, being a predominantly logical person, it makes it extremely difficult.

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I don't believe in an afterlife because there is no evidence of an afterlife. The burden of proof. There needs to be evidence of an afterlife, not evidence that there isn't.
    Everything that there is evidence of is material, so everything we know tells us that when your brain dies, you are no longer alive. You are just a corpse.

Quote from: "Improbable"I don't believe in an afterlife because there is no evidence of an afterlife. The burden of proof. There needs to be evidence of an afterlife, not evidence that there isn't.
    Everything that there is evidence of is material, so everything we know tells us that when your brain dies, you are no longer alive. You are just a corpse.

Blimey mate ... next thing you're going to tell us is that Santa Claus & The Easter Bunny aren't real either (I do believe in faeries, I do, I do ... I do believe in faeries, I do, I do ... I do believe in faeries, I do, I do ...)  

Kyu

Well the easter bunny isn't real, but there are real bunnies ON Easter day.

Quote from: "Improbable"Well the easter bunny isn't real, but there are real bunnies ON Easter day.

No! It can't be true ... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah ... . :lol:  :lol:  

Kyu

The vatican is deciphering the newly discovered EB scrolls.  They will be made public within the year.  Don't worry.  Go hide your eggs.

Quote from: "DennisK"The vatican is deciphering the newly discovered EB scrolls.  They will be made public within the year.  Don't worry.  Go hide your eggs.

Phew ... and then some

Kyu

I have a fairly unique explanation to defy the afterlife hypothesis...
What creates your life experience anyway? Your senses... Why do you sense things?

Sight, sound, smell, touch, taste all emerged because there was as varying medium in which variations could occur and then be mapped to a spectrum of sensation. We see because there is light. We see color because the frequencies of light are important to life. We hear because there is air. We hear different tones and pitch because the frequencies of vibration are also important. We feel pain because lacerations of the the flesh are detrimental to survival. Well, you get the picture...

How can there be any experience without a medium that dictates those sensations? To believe in an afterlife to believe in "SOMETHING FROM NOTHING."

"Is there fire in hell? What makes it burn?! Fire here isn't magical...Will we see x-rays in the afterlife? There are x-rays here on earth... Do the clouds in heaven have a vapor pressure? Is there gravity in heaven? what's the speed of light in heaven?"

That's all you have to do to confront a pusher of the afterlife hypothesis. Inundate them with questions like a little kid. To me, the whole notion of an afterlife simply stinks to high.... heaven...(?) with man's search for purpose and meaning. "If this life doesn't appear to have meaning, there MUST be more to the story"

I'd find it a little too convenient to believe that our deepest desires are catered too by a universe that is indifferent to our existence.

Most people who believe in an afterlife don't fully grasp the realities of this life and why we experience it in the ways we do. They often see things as symbolic entities, like fire...which is simply fire to them... not a chemical reaction that releases energy. Once you start thinking about reality in these terms, an afterlife seems extremely silly, and if any atheist was ever sent to an afterlife, surely he/she would have broken it by now...

Quote from: "Arthur Dent"and if any atheist was ever sent to an afterlife, surely he/she would have broken it by now...

ROFL!!!!!

Kyu

An afterlife for me would involve a lengthy discussion with god why he possibly can't exist.

Quote from: "Rastelin"An afterlife for me would involve a lengthy discussion with god why he possibly can't exist.

Exactly. A wishywashy, nonreality would be no match for the shear inquisitive nature of the scientific, atheist mind.

I think we'll probably live again in some other form. After our chemical formula is reorganized then consumed by something living and finally making it's way to become a sperm inside whatever consumed it. (our bodies have ways of sorting out what it consumes right?) Whether it is conceived or not will determine whether you'll live again. Also how accessible your body is to be broken down and consumed. For this reason I want my corpse to be thrown into the woods when I die. Hahah. This is a bit morbid but some of my friends agreed with me to have a pile.  just a thought.

I think it's kind of funny assuming the age and size of the universe that I happen to be living in the time that happens to be present rather than past or future.

Quote from: "Graham"I think it's kind of funny assuming the age and size of the universe that I happen to be living in the time that happens to be present rather than past or future.

Every now and then it hits me like a ton of bricks...

"You are HERE, on this planet, made of atoms that came from all over the galaxy, now in conscious form. 20 years ago, you were a collection of plants and animals..."

The nature of consciousness is a really interesting field of research! There's several theories on what defines the self, what defines our sapience, and what defines the human mind and human mental capacities. All of this exists in a rather nebulous area of thought right now because we're still struggling to attain basic definitions of what all this is.

Early theory on this is now called the fallacy of the homunculus. Basically, the idea was that there was some central piece of us where our consciousness  resided, a particular section of the brain or whatever. We now know that this cannot be so, the self is dispersed throughout an unknown number of neurological structures, somewhere between several to all of them. This, in and of itself does not preclude the 'antenna' idea which has been previously postulated, but attempts to find any signs of external stimulus has failed, indeed, the body of proof is that there is no external stimulus to control the body.

Virtual representations of neural nets have shown several organic characteristics which we ascribe to intelligence, namely the capacity for memory storage, recollection, pattern recognition and recreation. This means that a neural net is capable of being imprinted with the memory of your mom. If you see something similer to your mom then the neural net can reproduce the image of your mom. It's hypothesized that it's the relationship between remembered experiences that produce our capacity for higher thought, we relate the word mom with her picture, her voice, etc. We do this with a massive amount of data, and produce complex webs of relationship between them in our neural net, this is what lets us jump from concept to concept in relation, which is the source of our capacity to think. Damage to this neural net changes the relationship by modifying the interaction between neurons and ergo changes how we think. This is still being tested, but there is a certain body of proof behind it.

One thing that I think about that challenges the 'we are a composition of our experiences' theory is what happens when we put people in sensory deprivation tanks. If we were purely reactive entities that were no more than a composition of our neural weights as defined by our experiences, then the complete removal of all sensory stimulus should see a steady reduction in neural activity as the impedus for that activity is removed. To my knowledge we have not seen this, the mind begins generating it's own sensation in the lack of external stimulus, so there's something there that provides an internal stimulus, possibly even related to the wave patterns we pick up via EKG since they show distinct and significant shifts based on external input but not related to external input temporaly. Therefore, I propose that the brain is capable of generating an internal signal, whether it be non-localized such as the conciousness and self effect, or semi-localized, possibly even in the autonomic sections. In a nonlocalized form it could be triggered by a change in ATP use due to lower stimulus, and in a localized form it can be an asynchronous signal generated constantly. If localized, then it can be said that it is the combination of external stimulus, neural structure, and this internal signal that produces our capacity for original thought, and extended internal analysis beyond a point at which entropy should kick in on neural activity.

Well, that was complicated! To sum it up, there is no body of proof for a homunculus, whether it be a particular brain structure or a soul, but there is evidence that the brain is capable of producing all the wonders of living that we experience on it's own.

Quote from: "slayerment"1. I don't see how our mind and brain could be the same thing. Does science really show that the brain is actually where "we" come from, or is it simply the CPU for the body? Where is our personality and consciousness actually located? Take a TV for instance. While a TV may have a picture that is being presented on one end, the actual TV itself is really just interpreting a signal that is projected from an external source. But what is the actual source in relation to the TV? This is the same way I believe our mind and brains work together. The brain is interfacing with the mind signal.

Personality has been documented to change when certain parts of the brain have been damaged. So it's safe to say that personality is located in the brain.

I think consciousness is just the pattern formed by our entire brain activity. Take your TV example : the TV only shows a matrix of individual coloured dots/pixels, but if we look at them all at once we see a picture.