US Supreme Court Leans Toward Repudiating Separation of Church and State

Started by Recusant, June 21, 2022, 08:14:31 PM

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Tom62

In what way does the coach represents the US state or church?
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

billy rubin

he represents neither.

there ate several schools of thought in america about government and religion, and the one i believe is correct is "religious tolrration."

government should be neutral towards religion or the lack of it. benefits and restrictions applied to one should be applied to both, and so on.

in this case the coach wanted to pray after the games. nothing wrpng with that. you can pray anywhere at anytime in america, so long as you do not disturb people unduly.

but this coach didnt want to just pray. he wanted to pray loudly, in the center of the football field, immediately after the game, the coach wanted his prayer to be part of the secular practice of a dport in a secular institition, and by doong so made the school game a part of his religious practice.

i saw my own kids in american public school pressured into reciting loyalty oaths, prayers, and military ritials, because they were offered by someone in authority and my kids didnt want to be singled out.

thats the problem. to help show my kids that they dont have to accede to the cultural demands of the local dominant culture, i dont stand for prayers or flag ceremonies or loyalty oaths, dont take off my hat, and sit while people pray.

if you look at the pictures, the coach made a religious spectacle in a place where neutrality has been agreed on. thats the problem i have with it


more people have been to berlin than i have

Anne D.

Quote from: Tom62 on June 29, 2022, 08:47:20 PMIn what way does the coach represents the US state or church?

As an employee of a public school district, he was an official of the state, and he was leading his students in a public prayer, despite what Justice Gorsuch says.

billy rubin



more people have been to berlin than i have

Anne D.

Quote from: billy rubin on June 30, 2022, 02:23:16 AMhttps://abc7.com/nc-workers-fired-not-joining-aurora-pro-services-daily-prayer-devotion-eeoc-atheist/12001573/

^^^ This is a religious discrimination issue, by a private employer, as opposed to a separation-of-church-and-state issue. But it is nevertheless gross that the two were fired.


Tom62

Quote from: Anne D. on June 30, 2022, 01:56:05 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on June 29, 2022, 08:47:20 PMIn what way does the coach represents the US state or church?

As an employee of a public school district, he was an official of the state, and he was leading his students in a public prayer, despite what Justice Gorsuch says.

Thanks for the clarification. The coach should have prayed at home.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Bluenose

I find it amazing the way religious types are able to not notice how what they do goes against the very principles they espouse.  They may be outspoken American patriots, yet they act against the very foundations set out by the American founding fathers.  They claim to be pro-life, but once a child is actually born, they leave the child and its mother to their own devices - no actual support for the living kiddies.  Furthermore, they oppose abortion, but they are often the greatest users of abortion services.   They spout all sorts of twaddle about moral behaviour regarding sexual matters, but they are the greatest perpetrators of child sexual abuse, and they are amongst the largest consumers of pornography, despite denouncing it as evil.
+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett


Recusant

An analysis of this decision, which points out that an honest evaluation of the facts of the case would show that even if Gorsuch has buried the Lemon test, there is another precedent in Lee v. Weisman which clearly applies. Gorsuch's dishonesty on the facts allowed him to dodge addressing that precedent. The current court won't let that stop it, but they'll have up their level of duplicity to overturn Lee.

"The Supreme Court hands the religious right a big victory by lying about the facts of a case" | Vox

QuoteIn any event, while Gorsuch's opinion does overrule Lemon, it does not purport to overrule Lee. And, as explained above, Lee permits public school employees to engage in the kind of private, quiet prayer that Gorsuch falsely claims Kennedy engaged in after football games.

That means that the doctrinal implications of Gorsuch's Kennedy opinion on future cases in which public school employees coerce their students into religious exercise are far from clear. If Gorsuch had held that the Constitution permits Kennedy to do what he actually did, then that would be a hugely consequential decision that would gut the Court's previous decision in Lee.

But, because Gorsuch paints such a misleading picture, involving a coach who offered a "short, private, personal prayer," the more limited holding of Kennedy is that this hypothetical activity is allowed. And, again, Lee already permits public school employees to engage in private, personal prayers.

Kennedy will no doubt inspire other teachers and coaches to behave similarly to Coach Kennedy, but those teachers and coaches will do so at their own peril. Gorsuch's opinion doesn't weigh whether a coach is allowed to do what Kennedy actually did. That remains an open question, because the Court did not actually decide that case.

[Link to full article.]
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken