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Russia invades Ukraine.

Started by Tank, February 24, 2022, 09:39:43 AM

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Tank

24th February 2022 Russian troops invade Ukraine from Russia and Belrus. It is not yet known if Belarus troops are involved.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

billy rubin

well i was wrong. i thought he would stage a coup and install a puppet government.

this crude ww2-style invasion is not what i expected. apparently putin is intending to send a message to the rest of his ex-soviet neighbors


more people have been to berlin than i have

Ecurb Noselrub

He says he will not occupy, but he is a liar so we don't know what he will do. He wants everyone to know what he can do, anytime he wants. Of course, the nations to the west are all NATO, so that will be interesting. If he goes into the Baltic states, NATO has to respond. An attack on one is an attack on all.

Tank

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on February 24, 2022, 03:38:07 PM
He says he will not occupy, but he is a liar so we don't know what he will do. He wants everyone to know what he can do, anytime he wants. Of course, the nations to the west are all NATO, so that will be interesting. If he goes into the Baltic states, NATO has to respond. An attack on one is an attack on all.

The Baltic states are also part of the EU so it is a very different ball game.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

viocjit

I'd like to know a thing I can't know for the moment because this information isn't public and will maybe be never published or after my death (I'm 28 years old. If the information is released in 100 years or more I would be dead accorded to medical knowledge of nowadays).

This thing is the next. The president of Russian Federation initially wanted to put Ukraine under pressure (When Russians troops were around the border between the two states) or he did prepared invasion for month or years ?

If Russia invades fully the Ukrainian territory.
Does it means Putin will attack a country member of European Union or / and a NATO member ?

If the President of Russia attack an EU country.
What will do others members of this union ? In this case I hope they will fight (Military or / and non-military) with the party under attack by any means.
EU countries have the legal obligation to assist each others in case of an attack.

If the Russian President choose to attack a state member of NATO. In this case I hope they will fight (Military or / and non-military) with the party under attack by any means.
Think about article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty. It can be used. It can maybe finish in a nuclear war.
War isn't fun , war is devastating for all parties involved , war with two sides who have an access to nuclear weapons is terrifying if a faction or both choose to use these.

Full extract of article 5 in English :
"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security"


Link to the treaty on official NATO website : https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm
Text is available in 27 languages (Some of them aren't languages of NATO members. The language of some members isn't available) : Albanian , Armenian , Croatian , Czech , Danish , Dutch , English , Estonian , French , Georgian , German , Greek , Hebrew , Hungarian , Icelandic , Italian , Latvian , Lithuanian , Norwegian , Polish , Portuguese , Russian , Slovenian , Spanish , Turkish , Ukrainian.

Full extract of article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations (There are a reference to it in article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty) :
"Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security."

Link to the charter on official UN website (Text available in the six official languages of UN that are Arabic , Chinese , English , French , Russian , Spanish) : https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter

Ecurb Noselrub

Ukraine is not part of NATO or the EU.

xSilverPhinx

IMO unless Putin pulls out of Ukraine willingly, it is unfortunately lost. However, I really hope that in addition to crippling sanctions imposed on Russia, the occupation will turn into a protracted war that will drain them financially and morally, without draining the other side too much. By the looks of it, invading a country was incredibly easy, I want to see if they have the kind of resources necessary to keep their troops there for a very long time.

I'm hoping the opposing side take Putin's actions and turn them into into major mistakes. If Putin does all he does and gets away with it, he wouldn't have made any.

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


billy rubin

#7
ukraine is lost politically. it had no friends willing to fight with it. but depending on the willingness of the west to continue supplying arms, putins occupation may become as bloody and unpopular as his afghan excursion.

all the attack helicopters in the world cannot defend against a man with a truckload of stinger shoulder mounted missiles to distribute.

same with russian armour. anti tank technology is equalized by somebody behind a tree with a javelin.


more people have been to berlin than i have

billy rubin

#8





these things are pretty effective at short ranges, and dont take a whole army infrastructure to operate. theyre perfect equalizers for partizans.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Icarus

^ Here's hoping that the Ukrainians have a good supply of those weapons.  They will almost surely lose the battles, but they may inflict a heavy price to the invaders.

One has to wonder whether the invaders are dedicated to the whims of what has recently appeared to be the demented state of their glorious leader. Stingers and Javelins will spell the demise of more than a few of the invaders. Ukrainian citizens are making Molatov cocktails and firing small arms toward the invaders.   How about the Russian families who must mourn the loss of their loved ones?  Will that matter?

billy rubin

when the kids started coming back from afghanistan in body bags it made a difference. especially the ones who had been skinned alive


more people have been to berlin than i have

billy rubin

well, russia still is winning, but it seems that they are not winning as rapidly as they had expected.

there are videos of russian armour stalled on the roadside, out of fuel.

if your tank runs out of fuel during an attack, somebody miscalculated.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Ecurb Noselrub

The two sides are going to talk at the border. I hope some deal acceptable to Ukraine can be worked out so the fighting will stop. Putin is evil.

billy rubin

putin will offer an ultimatum. a quick surrender of ukraine is what he wants, before his campaign unravels. already its experiencing logistics problems, and logistics are what wins or loses campaigns.

apparently putin didnt expect such resistance. some of his tanks are running out of fuel. that is a MAJOR miscalculation, because a stalled tank is both worthless to him, and useful to his oppositin if they can pour in a can of fuel and drive away with it. and if he miscalulated his supply lines for one tank, he probably miscalculated his supply lines for a lot more.

things are changinf rapidly. putins oligarchs are already complaining about their portfolios. whether he pays attention to them or not is up in the air, but we wont know for an other two or three days.

and its putin that has to maintain an offensive. all the ukrainians have to do is hold on.

in the meantime, sweden--sweden -- is sending 5000 antitank missiles to ukraine. its got to be serious when sweden takes sides.



more people have been to berlin than i have

billy rubin

the internet has made this a very different war.

the ukrainians are posting the names of russian soldiers they have killed or captured on the net, so that their families can look them up and see what has become of their kids.


more people have been to berlin than i have