Thought this was interesting as well: The Christians making Atheists (https://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/06/04/the-christians-making-atheists/)
He misses the big point (the presence of woo vs. the absence of Jesus) but otherwise makes good points.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 28, 2018, 09:40:53 PM
Thought this was interesting as well: The Christians making Atheists (https://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/06/04/the-christians-making-atheists/)
He misses the big point (the presence of woo vs. the absence of Jesus) but otherwise makes good points.
As you say, Books, he has some very good points. Looking at the American evangelicals, the Irish Catholics and protestsnts and maybe some others there is a great deal of, "If you ain't one of us you are against us," even between denominations let alone towards atheists, LBGTQ and others. There us more acceptance - for who you are and what you are rather than what you believe - outside most churches than within.
The author, Pavlovitz, is cherry picking. He needs also to agree that Christians are not exclusively hell-fire-and brimstone (HF&B) types that so effectively repel us. The insufferable churches that drive us away from Jesus tend to be in the deep south especially in rural areas. Sure enough there are nut case church groups in New York, Los Angeles, Or Chicago but they are generally part of the lunatic fringe that have little influence on those of us who have reached the age of reason.
Backwoods Baptists, Hillbilly Methodists, Crackpot COGs, and others do tend to turn us off. The ones that cause the most severe of my own revulsion are the individuals who presume to debate and believe they can defeat the likes of Krauss, Tyson, Green, Kolb, and other brilliants. :doh:
.Aside:...............age of reason? We could have a really good conversation that attempts to identify the so called age of reason....... If any such plateau exists.
As my old favorite band, DC Talk, said, at the beginning of a great song, What if I Stumble,
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
But it's really a no-win situation for Christians of any stripe. The fundies think that by living true to God's word and high moral living, then God's light will shine from them and the power of God will draw all men unto himself. The more progressive, liberal Christians think that they need to be "relevant" to the world as it is today and that will draw all men to God.
So which is it? It's just a trick question! Because neither one works much any more! And in fact, people from all groups of Christianity are driving others away. People are looking to live authentic lives and Christianity no longer fits that bill. Sorry Jesus!
Quote from: Icarus on January 29, 2018, 01:30:52 AM
The author, Pavlovitz, is cherry picking. He needs also to agree that Christians are not exclusively hell-fire-and brimstone (HF&B) types that so effectively repel us. The insufferable churches that drive us away from Jesus tend to be in the deep south especially in rural areas. Sure enough there are nut case church groups in New York, Los Angeles, Or Chicago but they are generally part of the lunatic fringe that have little influence on those of us who have reached the age of reason.
I think that the megachurches in metropolitan areas you think of as "lunatic fringe" are becoming the mainstream of American Christianity. You see them as nut cases, but they've continued to be popular and successful. That's why I disagree with Pavlovitz when he says that "the Church soon will be teetering on the verge of extinction and irrelevance"--there is an element of American society that finds that variety of evangelical bullshit very appealing, and it's not going away.
Quote from: Recusant on January 29, 2018, 05:11:05 PM
Quote from: Icarus on January 29, 2018, 01:30:52 AM
The author, Pavlovitz, is cherry picking. He needs also to agree that Christians are not exclusively hell-fire-and brimstone (HF&B) types that so effectively repel us. The insufferable churches that drive us away from Jesus tend to be in the deep south especially in rural areas. Sure enough there are nut case church groups in New York, Los Angeles, Or Chicago but they are generally part of the lunatic fringe that have little influence on those of us who have reached the age of reason.
I think that the megachurches in metropolitan areas you think of as "lunatic fringe" are becoming the mainstream of American Christianity. You see them as nut cases, but they've continued to be popular and successful. That's why I disagree with Pavlovitz when he says that "the Church soon will be teetering on the verge of extinction and irrelevance"--there is an element of American society that finds that variety of evangelical bullshit very appealing, and it's not going away.
There are enough idiots out there that that particular marketing model has shown itself to be durable through many proven cases of fraud and abuse over the years.