Family pressures on an atheist mother.

[Gawen]

Grandparents need to know their place. All decisions on how to bring children up are the responsibility of the parents.
Grandparents can dote on the children, giving them love, hugs, kisses, presents and play with them on visits, but that is about the limit.

It is hard for grandparents to know their place, but they must learn it, they have had their chance with their own kids, but their kids are now independant mature adults, making decisions for themselves and their own kids.

Yes...totally agree! One thing you can do as a parent and an individual is to have everyone accept the subject of religion in your and your children's presence as a taboo. You may think you owe much to your relatives, but in my opinion, children owe nothing to a parent because it is the parent's JOB to raise their children. Raising a child is not for a reward or to be paid back like a debt or a favour returned. If, for example, your parents become infirm and you wish to care for them, in your house, it should be from the goodness of your heart, not as payback.

Family is all fine and good until the mental coercion over religion or your job or the way you raise your own children...or whatever comes into play. You are not the spitting image of your parents. They need to learn that. Many years ago my dad and I had an agrument. It was the usual dad vs. son, where dad is always right and the adult son is never right. The argument that so many of have heard the sayings "Where have I gone wrong in raising you?", "If you have of.....If you hadn't of...". I stopped him and simply asked him "Do you love me?" and he answered "Yes" I asked him why he doesn't like me as a person, in my own right as an adult to make my own decisions. He didn't know what to say and we never had another argument since....and that was nearly 30 years ago. Of course, my dad is never one to NOT offer his advice when not asked for it...*chucklin*. But he doesn't yell at me any more.

Religion is a poison Kimberly. When I was a teenager (low teens) every summer for three months we would spend away from home in a travel trailer (a caravan to you Brits) at a lake. Our church would use an little envelope to put your tithings in so no one could see what the other person in the pew tithed. Well, we had to take out tithe envelopes with us to the lake, which was a couple hundred miles from home. My dad is a good man, and he provided nicely for the family. He would work through the week and take as much overtime as he could to leave early on Friday and spend the weekend with us at the lake. When he would leave Sunday afternoon, he'd take the tithe envelope with our tithe inside with him and drop it off at the church. Well, one year I forgot to bring the envelopes with me. He was so perturbed that he slugged me on the shoulder.

While I had been spanked in my younger years, and those perhaps 1/2 dozen spankings (I was usually a pretty good kid), this was the first and only time my dad ever struck me out of anger. And it brought tears to my eyes. Perhaps he thought I was negligent enough in forgetting the envelopes and the ensuing anger justified a punch, I don't know. But today I chalk it up to religious poisoning, shifting away the thought process of letting it go as an extreme minor offense and he could have brought them to me next week, which he did anyway. But something happened between my dad and me that year, because of the punch and it wasn't all that good. He never hit me again, never talked about it, nor apologised and I think he thought it a mistake. I had forgiven his trespasses in later years, but have never forgotten. And because I never forgot, whenever I was really angry at my own kids, his punch was always there reminding me that I would never punch my kids.

With all that said...
We are all, each of us unique individuals with the ability and freedom to make choices. Please take the time to examine the choices you may make, take time to think about how it will effect you and those around you. This above all else I have learned in my life is the most important guiding principle. Just be aware that you can't please everyone.

[Willow]

I couldn't do it.  I know family pressures affect us all differently, but I wouldn't bring my children to a church service where an adult spoke convincingly about supernatural idea that are untrue.  I try to give my kids the direct answer to their questions, and point it out when an adult tries to present myths as true.  I have to remind them that Santa is just a story.

My mum doesn't like it that we don't send our children to school, but I'm not about to change my mind because of her, and she to her credit has accepted this and has embraced the home ed idea despite it not being her choice.

I have enough trouble discussing the idea that things presented as fact on tv documentaries are not necessarily reliable.

As for learning morals at church, I think better morals can be learnt outside.  We have reasons for our morals and figure them out for ourselves based on the real world.

[MadBomr101]

Grandparents need to know their place. All decisions on how to bring children up are the responsibility of the parents.
Grandparents can dote on the children, giving them love, hugs, kisses, presents and play with them on visits, but that is about the limit.

It is hard for grandparents to know their place, but they must learn it, they have had their chance with their own kids, but their kids are now independant mature adults, making decisions for themselves and their own kids.

Yes...totally agree!

Same here. 

While I had been spanked in my younger years, and those perhaps 1/2 dozen spankings (I was usually a pretty good kid), this was the first and only time my dad ever struck me out of anger. And it brought tears to my eyes. Perhaps he thought I was negligent enough in forgetting the envelopes and the ensuing anger justified a punch, I don't know. But today I chalk it up to religious poisoning, shifting away the thought process of letting it go as an extreme minor offense and he could have brought them to me next week, which he did anyway. But something happened between my dad and me that year, because of the punch and it wasn't all that good. He never hit me again, never talked about it, nor apologised and I think he thought it a mistake. I had forgiven his trespasses in later years, but have never forgotten. And because I never forgot, whenever I was really angry at my own kids, his punch was always there reminding me that I would never punch my kids.

That just goes to show how religion can completely eff up people's thinking.  Did he honestly think god would be mad if his payment was late, like the cable company gets when they have to wait an extra day or two?  Hell, even the cable company doesn't get physical over it.

That was a revealing incident.

[Traveler]

...Well, one year I forgot to bring the envelopes with me. He was so perturbed that he slugged me on the shoulder.

...Perhaps he thought I was negligent enough in forgetting the envelopes and the ensuing anger justified a punch, I don't know...

Nope. There's no excuse for hitting (except for self defense I think). I'm also against spanking. There are kinder, gentler ways of making a point, and of raising healthy, happy, law-abiding children.

I couldn't do it.  I know family pressures affect us all differently, but I wouldn't bring my children to a church service where an adult spoke convincingly about supernatural idea that are untrue.  I try to give my kids the direct answer to their questions, and point it out when an adult tries to present myths as true.  I have to remind them that Santa is just a story.

I agree with this. Its so easy to brainwash a child. And I know many people who have been psychologically damaged by fears of hellfire to the point where I believe its emotional abuse. I would not take that chance with my child.

[Ateo]

I couldn't do it.  I know family pressures affect us all differently, but I wouldn't bring my children to a church service where an adult spoke convincingly about supernatural idea that are untrue.  I try to give my kids the direct answer to their questions, and point it out when an adult tries to present myths as true.  I have to remind them that Santa is just a story.

My mum doesn't like it that we don't send our children to school, but I'm not about to change my mind because of her, and she to her credit has accepted this and has embraced the home ed idea despite it not being her choice.

I have enough trouble discussing the idea that things presented as fact on tv documentaries are not necessarily reliable.

As for learning morals at church, I think better morals can be learnt outside.  We have reasons for our morals and figure them out for ourselves based on the real world.

Please reread the above posting first.

WOW !!!    A Voices of reason.

There is a war going on ..... it's a battle for your child's mind. Please notice that the smiling, kind apathetic looking priest or preacher has the gloves off and he doesn't mince words when he's pounding hell, damnation, sin, evil, redemption, satan into your kids head. The hammer he's using is fear, deep seated fear that could stay with them always, fear, how bloody awful of them. Notice that absolutely everything he's preaching is a  lie.

Get the gloves off.

[Ali]

...Well, one year I forgot to bring the envelopes with me. He was so perturbed that he slugged me on the shoulder.

...Perhaps he thought I was negligent enough in forgetting the envelopes and the ensuing anger justified a punch, I don't know...

Nope. There's no excuse for hitting (except for self defense I think). I'm also against spanking. There are kinder, gentler ways of making a point, and of raising healthy, happy, law-abiding children.

I couldn't do it.  I know family pressures affect us all differently, but I wouldn't bring my children to a church service where an adult spoke convincingly about supernatural idea that are untrue.  I try to give my kids the direct answer to their questions, and point it out when an adult tries to present myths as true.  I have to remind them that Santa is just a story.

I agree with this. Its so easy to brainwash a child. And I know many people who have been psychologically damaged by fears of hellfire to the point where I believe its emotional abuse. I would not take that chance with my child.

Yes, agree with all of this.

But I do have to admit that it's hard for me sometimes, to know what to say as a parent.  I know that my parents talk to my son about god when we're not around because he comes home from their house talking about god.  My husband has no problems saying "God is just a story" but sometimes I struggle with it a little.  The one that I had the hardest time with is my son said "Is it true that god is always protecting us?"  And I thought how comforting it would be to believe that someone is always looking out for us.  It almost seemed mean to say no, that's not true.  I sort of side stepped the question by saying "Mommy and Daddy will always protect you."  I don't know why I have such a hard time talking to my son about my beliefs - it just kind of seems mean, like little children should be allowed to believe in all sorts of nonsense if it makes them feel better.  My husband totally disagrees, and I'm sure that most of you do too.  LOL  I can't really explain it because it's not rational. 

[Traveler]

...The one that I had the hardest time with is my son said "Is it true that god is always protecting us?"  And I thought how comforting it would be to believe that someone is always looking out for us.  It almost seemed mean to say no, that's not true.  I sort of side stepped the question by saying "Mommy and Daddy will always protect you."  I don't know why I have such a hard time talking to my son about my beliefs - it just kind of seems mean, like little children should be allowed to believe in all sorts of nonsense if it makes them feel better.  My husband totally disagrees, and I'm sure that most of you do too.  LOL  I can't really explain it because it's not rational. 

The problem with this is that when bad things happen it'll be a total and complete surprise, and therefore even worse than it should be. "But mommy, you said god would protect me and I broke my leg!!!" or "But mommy, you said god would protect me and my best friend died!!!" Seriously. False hopes can be more devastating than the truth. Life is messy. Better to teach them that you'll be there to pick them up and help them than that nothing will ever happen because a god is watching out for them and protecting them.

[Ali]

...The one that I had the hardest time with is my son said "Is it true that god is always protecting us?"  And I thought how comforting it would be to believe that someone is always looking out for us.  It almost seemed mean to say no, that's not true.  I sort of side stepped the question by saying "Mommy and Daddy will always protect you."  I don't know why I have such a hard time talking to my son about my beliefs - it just kind of seems mean, like little children should be allowed to believe in all sorts of nonsense if it makes them feel better.  My husband totally disagrees, and I'm sure that most of you do too.  LOL  I can't really explain it because it's not rational. 

The problem with this is that when bad things happen it'll be a total and complete surprise, and therefore even worse than it should be. "But mommy, you said god would protect me and I broke my leg!!!" or "But mommy, you said god would protect me and my best friend died!!!" Seriously. False hopes can be more devastating than the truth. Life is messy. Better to teach them that you'll be there to pick them up and help them than that nothing will ever happen because a god is watching out for them and protecting them.

Thank you.  Seriously.  That's a really good point, and a good way to look at it.  Taking it to heart.

[DeterminedJuliet]

...The one that I had the hardest time with is my son said "Is it true that god is always protecting us?"  And I thought how comforting it would be to believe that someone is always looking out for us.  It almost seemed mean to say no, that's not true.  I sort of side stepped the question by saying "Mommy and Daddy will always protect you."  I don't know why I have such a hard time talking to my son about my beliefs - it just kind of seems mean, like little children should be allowed to believe in all sorts of nonsense if it makes them feel better.  My husband totally disagrees, and I'm sure that most of you do too.  LOL  I can't really explain it because it's not rational. 

The problem with this is that when bad things happen it'll be a total and complete surprise, and therefore even worse than it should be. "But mommy, you said god would protect me and I broke my leg!!!" or "But mommy, you said god would protect me and my best friend died!!!" Seriously. False hopes can be more devastating than the truth. Life is messy. Better to teach them that you'll be there to pick them up and help them than that nothing will ever happen because a god is watching out for them and protecting them.

Agreed!

I work with a woman whose son is ten, still believes in Santa and she is desperate to keep the illusion alive. Before Christmas I remember her saying "he's starting to ask a lot of questions, I don't know how much longer I can keep this up", but she won't tell him the truth - she even had one of our co-workers forge a letter from "Santa" for Christmas morning this year.

All I keep thinking about is how pissed this kid is going to be when he's 11 and realizes that his mother has been going to a lot of trouble to lie to him for his whole life.

[Stevil]

Thank you.  Seriously.  That's a really good point, and a good way to look at it.  Taking it to heart.

If you are keen, the next time he hurts himself you could tell him that he must take more care and that there is no god magically protecting him.
Of course the grandparents will always have an answer for everything. Personally I would be confronting the grandparents and ask them to respect my wishes as a parent.

[Ali]

Thank you.  Seriously.  That's a really good point, and a good way to look at it.  Taking it to heart.

If you are keen, the next time he hurts himself you could tell him that he must take more care and that there is no god magically protecting him.
Of course the grandparents will always have an answer for everything. Personally I would be confronting the grandparents and ask them to respect my wishes as a parent.

I have.  Confronted my parents, that is.  Their argument (which I actually do understand) is that their religion is an important part of their life and they aren't going to censor themselves when he's around just because we disagree.  I honestly can't imagine my parents *not* saying grace before a meal or things like that or not talking about god.  And I guess it also comes to a point where it's like - I won't be able to shield him from everyone's religious beliefs for very long anyway.  He's got a year and a half before he starts school, and I'm sure he's going to meet kids there that will be religious.

Wow, lightbulb.  That's why it's important for me to talk about this stuff with him now.

Thank you guys for talking this out with me.  I definitely know what I need to be doing.  I'm so glad I joined this forum!

[Amicale]

Thank you.  Seriously.  That's a really good point, and a good way to look at it.  Taking it to heart.

If you are keen, the next time he hurts himself you could tell him that he must take more care and that there is no god magically protecting him.
Of course the grandparents will always have an answer for everything. Personally I would be confronting the grandparents and ask them to respect my wishes as a parent.

I have.  Confronted my parents, that is.  Their argument (which I actually do understand) is that their religion is an important part of their life and they aren't going to censor themselves when he's around just because we disagree.  I honestly can't imagine my parents *not* saying grace before a meal or things like that or not talking about god.  And I guess it also comes to a point where it's like - I won't be able to shield him from everyone's religious beliefs for very long anyway.  He's got a year and a half before he starts school, and I'm sure he's going to meet kids there that will be religious.

Wow, lightbulb.  That's why it's important for me to talk about this stuff with him now.

Thank you guys for talking this out with me.  I definitely know what I need to be doing.  I'm so glad I joined this forum!

Ali, it sounds like you and I have had similar backgrounds. My daughter's three, and although she's maybe too young to ask questions about God (or maybe NOT, but there haven't been any so far, LOL), my mom and grandparents certainly do believe in God, and they've made it clear that although they and I will agree to disagree, they aren't going to censor themselves either. That's fine with me, actually. Just like in your case, I'd like my child to be aware that everyone's different, and that diversity is a good thing. If she grows up with a balance of different perspectives, that's fine by me. Already, she asks questions like 'Why do Uncle Steve and Uncle Mike kiss, mama?' (friends of mine who are like brothers to me, who I have over from time to time) or 'how come so and so's a different colour' when we're in a store. I welcome those questions! It shows her wonderful little brain's wheels are turning, and it'll only be a short matter of time before she's asking about religion as well.

So, yeah, my focus is teaching her to appreciate differences and diversity, and to respect those differences. In the long run, I hope it'll make her relationship with religious family members better -- she'll be able to appreciate them for who they are, differences or no.

[Stevil]

Thank you.  Seriously.  That's a really good point, and a good way to look at it.  Taking it to heart.

If you are keen, the next time he hurts himself you could tell him that he must take more care and that there is no god magically protecting him.
Of course the grandparents will always have an answer for everything. Personally I would be confronting the grandparents and ask them to respect my wishes as a parent.

I have.  Confronted my parents, that is.  Their argument (which I actually do understand) is that their religion is an important part of their life and they aren't going to censor themselves when he's around just because we disagree.  I honestly can't imagine my parents *not* saying grace before a meal or things like that or not talking about god.  And I guess it also comes to a point where it's like - I won't be able to shield him from everyone's religious beliefs for very long anyway.  He's got a year and a half before he starts school, and I'm sure he's going to meet kids there that will be religious.

Wow, lightbulb.  That's why it's important for me to talk about this stuff with him now.

Thank you guys for talking this out with me.  I definitely know what I need to be doing.  I'm so glad I joined this forum!

I wasn't talking about censuring your own parents but just getting them to respect your place as the child's parent.
It is a tricky situation, my eldest is 3 years old and is already going to kindergarten for 20 hours a week, so exposure to such things is inevitable and I am determined to ensure my children go to public schools so that they experience a diverse society rather than an exclusive one. I haven't worked out a strategy for dealing with religion. It is not really an issue in my country. If she asks me about stuff maybe I will just tell her what my disbeliefs are and why.

Anyway I can tell you are a smart lady and a great parent no doubt.

[Ali]

Thanks Stevil!    I'm sure that you are a great parent too.  You're lucky that religion isn't as rampant and out of control in your country (New Zealand?)  It's a huge part of public life here in the US, unfortunately.

Amicale, that is a great point about teaching your daughter to respect diversity.  That is definitely important. 

[Wessik]

Kim, I see what you're going through, and It is very painful. I don't have any answers except to tell you that I support you and hope things work out. It is wonderful that you love your children, and love your parents. I can only hope that something good comes out of this in the future, whatever future that may be.