Happy Atheist Forum

So I am curious what you all think about the death penalty.  Here's my take:
I do think punishments can be deterrents for lesser crimes.  In Singapore, crime is much lower than most other places because of the fear of caning.  If we were caned or had our hands cut off for shoplifting, I imagine fewer people would do it.  However, for murder, I don't think the death penalty is a deterrent.  If you're willing to murder someone, that's pretty much the ultimate crime.  I think when you reach that point you're pretty well past being concerned about what the penalty is if you get caught.

I think if you're going to have a death penalty, you have to have a way to make sure the accused is guilty, a way that 20 years later we won't find out we executed an innocent person.  There has to be something solid involving video surveillance or DNA or something.

I think if you have a death penalty and have sound methods for determining guilt to avoid killing an innocent, you shouldn't allow someone to spend 15 years on death row.  The appeals process should not be allowed to string out more than a year or two.  It's cheaper to keep someone in the general population for many years than it is to keep someone on death row for 1 year, especially with the costs of courts and such.  California pays at least 90,000 extra dollars per year to keep someone on death row than in general population.  http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

Summary: I don't have a moral objection to death penalty for someone who is absolutely beyond doubt certainly guilty.  I have a financial objection to the costs of extended stays on death row, and for the potential of putting innocent people to death.

So, you're for cutting the hands off shoplifters?

All for death penalty. All for cutting off body parts. And in todays vile mood, all for poking eyes with pencils for staring too.  

Throughout history, all the innocent people who've been wrongly killed for their supposed crimes would've been sentenced because the jury were '100% sure' of their guilt.

Just sayin'.

Quote from: "Cecilie"So, you're for cutting the hands off shoplifters?

LOL no.  I was pointing out that harsh penalties can be a deterrent for lesser crimes, but I don't believe that there really is a deterrent for a crime such as murder.

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Cecilie"So, you're for cutting the hands off shoplifters?

LOL no.  I was pointing out that harsh penalties can be a deterrent for lesser crimes, but I don't believe that there really is a deterrent for a crime such as murder.

That is an interesting point that you make about there couldn't possible a punishment sufficiently bad to deter a murderer. Purely at an academic level I think there could be a punishment that would deter some people from murder, that would be 'perpetual torture'. However that punishment would not be sanctioned by any society that considered themselves civilised.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Cecilie"So, you're for cutting the hands off shoplifters?

LOL no.  I was pointing out that harsh penalties can be a deterrent for lesser crimes, but I don't believe that there really is a deterrent for a crime such as murder.

That is an interesting point that you make about there couldn't possible a punishment sufficiently bad to deter a murderer. Purely at an academic level I think there could be a punishment that would deter some people from murder, that would be 'perpetual torture'. However that punishment would not be sanctioned by any society that considered themselves civilised.

You have a point.  Or perhaps you could go with the idea of if you murder someone, we'll torture and kill those you love.  I just look at murder, and I think that it is such a departure from the things that lead to crimes like theft and simple assault that consequences if caught aren't important anymore.  Same for crimes like rape.  There is, I think, a mental illness factor in the more extreme crimes against other people, the kind that hurt others the most, that perhaps punishment for those crimes is either an abstract idea, or something that someone is willing to chance.  I wonder... was there a higher murder rate when we didn't have death penalties?  Would those stats be slanted by other factors such as population increase and more single parent families?  I guess the whole thing is very difficult to say.

Even if it were a deterrent, though, in my mind the other things I mentioned about certainty of guilt and quick processes would have to be in place, otherwise the death penalty just costs too much in money and in possibility of putting innocent people to death.

I personally would never sanction the death penalty, as we can never be 100% sure 100% of the time that a person were guilty. I've seen this debate on a few forums and I'm sure that if one looks at the murder rates in places that have the death penalty it is higher than where it isn't. Although the counter argument is that places with a high murder rate require the death penalty. So falling back on 'what would I want to happen to me' as I (and the vast majority of people) am not going to kill anybody I don't want the risk of suffering judicial murder at the hands of an imperfect system. You can always let somebody out of jail if you are wrong, as was the case of the Birmingham Six (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six) who would undoubtedly have been hung if the death penalty had been in place.

I am pro death penalty, especially for repeat offenders like child rapists. I would also be pro castration as an alternative.

Quote from: "Stevil"I am pro death penalty, especially for repeat offenders like child rapists. I would also be pro castration as an alternative.

How about not just castration... but cut off both the twig AND the berries!

I was raised by an emotionally reactive conservative baptist. When I was in first grade I recall responding to some question asked by my teacher with the phrase "bleeding heart liberals". heh

So, I was raised pro-death penalty, and this was (despite my overall loosening of beliefs and venture towards humanism) an opinion I held until recently.

Now I feel the death penalty is a plea to emotions, rather than public safety. Certainly, some of these crimes are so horrendous one might wish the person would be castrated, tortured, "uugggh eff that guy, he should suffer infinitely!" but this is how religion got started, methinks

I struggle with the US justice system as a whole. People in prison for marijuana charges, pedophiles getting minimal time, same with rapists, etc...I know this will always exist and it's easy to find those examples and maybe blow them up out of proportion to what is really happening, but I say that is the bigger issue than lethal injections.

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Stevil"I am pro death penalty, especially for repeat offenders like child rapists. I would also be pro castration as an alternative.

How about not just castration... but cut off both the twig AND the berries!

If I was a very bad man, one who was sufficiently bad to have a sentence of serious lopping delivered, how would I react to my mutilation?  I might stay home and get fat, or else be moved to acts of extreme sadism.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Stevil"I am pro death penalty, especially for repeat offenders like child rapists. I would also be pro castration as an alternative.

How about not just castration... but cut off both the twig AND the berries!

If I was a very bad man, one who was sufficiently bad to have a sentence of serious lopping delivered, how would I react to my mutilation?  I might stay home and get fat, or else be moved to acts of extreme sadism.

I prefer self-flagellation.  Flogging myself with a cat-of-nine-tails always makes me feel less criminal.

Quote from: "fester30"I prefer self-flagellation.  Flogging myself with a cat-of-nine-tails always makes me feel less criminal.

We don't have the death penalty in Canada and I am glad. I honestly don't see the point beyond revenge. I mean, maybe for the religious I could get wanting to "send them to hell" sooner or whatever, but if you don't believe in Hell, what's the point? I suppose there is an argument that it reduces long term jail costs, but it still seems like a "band-aid" solution to crime, at best.

I think the key to reducing heinous crimes is understanding what shapes them in the first place. If we hear a horrible story about a child rapist, I think our reaction should be "what creates child rapists?" and not all of the things that we'd like to do to them. Personally, I don't feel like most politicians really  want to study the roots of crime in a scientific way because then all of their political "theories" behind crime might get thrown out the window. As a society, I really think that we need to start demanding that social issues get addressed the same way that scientific issues get addressed: do studies, do research, stop just coming up with hair-brained schemes because YOU (or the Bible) thinks that it'll fix the issue.

Prisons should only hold those of the most heinous crimes. People who kill, enslave, and/or murder people for money or revenge and chose to do so knowing that it was wrong.

People of lesser crimes, like theft, vandalism, drug possession, prostitution, embezzelment and what have you should pay fines, be put on house arrest, and/or do community service.

People who commit crimes due to mental illness should get the help they need.

Anything more than that is unnecessary.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"If I was a very bad man, one who was sufficiently bad to have a sentence of serious lopping delivered, how would I react to my mutilation?  I might stay home and get fat, or else be moved to acts of extreme sadism.

I would turn to evil the like of which the world has never seen on the spot, I think...  

It’s impossible to put a moral value on one life over another.  If one is killed does that persons killer really deserve the death penalty. How do we know where either of these people would have ended up if allowed to live, either one of them has as much chance of curing cancer as they do stating a war. Either of these people may be the next Albert Einstein so if they are killed in the street or by an executioners needle society pays the same price as a whole. I feel that the criminal justice system, particularly in the US is deeply flawed and criminals should be forced to work for their meals and medical care while they are incarcerated. And I think that progressive educational programs should be in place that are the sentence instead of time. If a person commits to working hard and completes their psychological and vocation rehabilitation program then they get to move along the pipeline of institutions with progressively fewer and fewer walls until they are free. This would take an extreme amount of altruistic understanding on the part of the victim and the victims family.