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Re: Reasons To Be Grumpy thread

Started by jumbojak, October 27, 2012, 09:21:31 PM

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Biggus Dickus

Quote from: Firebird on March 16, 2016, 03:48:25 PM
Guy just left...no CO detected while the furnace and hot water heater were both running at full blast. So now we have to figure out what to do, since clearly there's still a problem that isn't showing up automatically. Might  have to just replace both since one of them is the culprit and we don't want to fuck around. They're both 8 years old, so they're not too far off from expected lifetime, but that's still some serious dough.
Oh, and in the meantime, gas is turned off to both. And temperatures are going below freezing in a couple of days.  Can I get multiple grumpiness points here?  >:(

Thats scary stuff Firebird, I'm glad you had the detector. I would suggest buying one for each bedroom you have people sleeping in to play it safe.

I'm no expert, but it could be a ventilation issue if your furnace and water heater are sharing the same flue. At the base of the flue in your furnace is a draft inducer. It's a little fan that pulls air up through the heat exchanger, and next to that fan is a pressure sensor that will cut off the furnace if it detects that the pressure in the flue is too high.
So if a squirrel or a bird builds a nest at the top of the flue, and the combustion gases can't escape, this sensor will shut off the furnace.

At the top of your water heater is where your flue is connected, and there is a small gap between the water heater and the bottom of the flue, this is designed to draw air in to aid with the natural draft of the water heater.
Warm air rises, so as a water heater runs and the warm combustion gases rise in the flue, the opening helps allowing more warm air from the room to rise.

When your water heater flue is connected to the furnace flue, however. The squirrel nest at the top of the flue still keeps the combustion gases from going out, but the sensor may not detect a high enough pressure to shut off the furnace. The reason is that the combustion gases now have another escape path at the top of the water heater.

The problem is this opening at the top of the water heater can also allow air to come down the flue, and if the air pressure in the room is low enough relative to the air pressure where the flue terminates outside, air will come down the flue. If air is coming down the flue while the water heater is firing, combustion gases may not go up the flue, they could come into the room.

So it could be that when your guy came and checked both units they are working fine, which in all reality they are, but I would definitely make sure that everything is vented well, and the flue has no obstructions in it or at the top.

Like I said I'm no expert...when I was younger I helped my brother in-law out with his heating and cooling business, mostly installing new furnaces/central air units.   

Hope this helps, and good luck.
"Some people just need a high-five. In the face. With a chair."

Firebird

Quote from: OldGit on March 16, 2016, 04:44:53 PM
Nasty, Firebird - you can't ignore a CO alarm, so it sounds expensive all right.  Is it not possible to find out which which one is doing it?
There's no question it was either the hot water heater or furnace, as the highest readings from last night (72 ppm) were coming from the back room in the basement where those two are located. Unfortunately, now they're both acting like everything is peachy and neither is generating CO when we turn them on temporarily.

Quote from: Recusant on March 16, 2016, 04:03:47 PM
For example, simply closing the door to a boiler room where gas fired equipment is operating can cause sudden production of CO gas if there is insufficient combustion air when the door is closed. Yet when someone opens the door to inspect the area, more combustion air is provided. CO production may stop.

[source]

I had someone else mention this too. Unfortunately the system pulls air from the outside, so I don't think it would apply in this case, though thank you for sending it on.

Quote from: Bruno de la Pole on March 16, 2016, 05:40:19 PM
I'm no expert, but it could be a ventilation issue if your furnace and water heater are sharing the same flue.

I did check this too and they're on separate flues, and neither one is blocked. Though the vents for both are not far away from each other outside the house, so the contractor was wondering if exhaust from one could get into the intake on the other. But even then it might not explain this.

Quote from: Recusant on March 16, 2016, 04:03:47 PM
I hope this gets sorted out soon, and that it doesn't cost you too much!

Unfortunately it will, as we're just going to replace both the furnace and hot water header. Pity my poor wallet. Initial suspicion is the furnace because the heat exchanger has rust, which could indicate some microfractures or other weaknesses that could lead to this. But they're both due to be replaced soon anyway, and we're not going to fuck around with CO.
Thank you all for the ideas, suggestions, and pity, it helps  :) Just need to make it through the next couple of days without hot water and heat. Luckily it's in the 50s Fahrenheit (10-20 Celsius) for the next couple of days, so we should be ok.
"Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another." - Will (moderator) on replacing hotel Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

jumbojak

Quote from: Bruno de la Pole on March 16, 2016, 05:40:19 PM
Quote from: Firebird on March 16, 2016, 03:48:25 PM
Guy just left...no CO detected while the furnace and hot water heater were both running at full blast. So now we have to figure out what to do, since clearly there's still a problem that isn't showing up automatically. Might  have to just replace both since one of them is the culprit and we don't want to fuck around. They're both 8 years old, so they're not too far off from expected lifetime, but that's still some serious dough.
Oh, and in the meantime, gas is turned off to both. And temperatures are going below freezing in a couple of days.  Can I get multiple grumpiness points here?  >:(

Thats scary stuff Firebird, I'm glad you had the detector. I would suggest buying one for each bedroom you have people sleeping in to play it safe.

I'm no expert, but it could be a ventilation issue if your furnace and water heater are sharing the same flue. At the base of the flue in your furnace is a draft inducer. It's a little fan that pulls air up through the heat exchanger, and next to that fan is a pressure sensor that will cut off the furnace if it detects that the pressure in the flue is too high.
So if a squirrel or a bird builds a nest at the top of the flue, and the combustion gases can't escape, this sensor will shut off the furnace.

At the top of your water heater is where your flue is connected, and there is a small gap between the water heater and the bottom of the flue, this is designed to draw air in to aid with the natural draft of the water heater.
Warm air rises, so as a water heater runs and the warm combustion gases rise in the flue, the opening helps allowing more warm air from the room to rise.

When your water heater flue is connected to the furnace flue, however. The squirrel nest at the top of the flue still keeps the combustion gases from going out, but the sensor may not detect a high enough pressure to shut off the furnace. The reason is that the combustion gases now have another escape path at the top of the water heater.

The problem is this opening at the top of the water heater can also allow air to come down the flue, and if the air pressure in the room is low enough relative to the air pressure where the flue terminates outside, air will come down the flue. If air is coming down the flue while the water heater is firing, combustion gases may not go up the flue, they could come into the room.

So it could be that when your guy came and checked both units they are working fine, which in all reality they are, but I would definitely make sure that everything is vented well, and the flue has no obstructions in it or at the top.

Like I said I'm no expert...when I was younger I helped my brother in-law out with his heating and cooling business, mostly installing new furnaces/central air units.   

Hope this helps, and good luck.

You may not be an expert, but that sounds like very good advice. I never knew a monkey could be so smart...

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

Icarus


Biggus Dickus

So what I believe JJ is acknowledging is that he kind of thinks, just maybe, that I'm a little bit, you know sorta/kinda smart...so now if I could get him to say that he thinks I'm kinda cute I'd be the happiest guy in the world.

"Some people just need a high-five. In the face. With a chair."

xSilverPhinx

Would you also like him to search for ticks? :P
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


jumbojak

Sure Bruno, you're cute. At least when you're not flinging feces at passerby. Happy?

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

Guardian85

Quote from: Firebird on March 16, 2016, 08:09:39 AM
It's 4 am and I'm too wired to sleep. Our smoke/carbon monoxide alarm went off three hours ago. We got out, called the fire department hoping it was a false alarm. Nope, CO detected in our basement. They shut off our hvac and hot water heater since they weren't sure which one was the culprit, and it took a while to air out the place. Fortunately everyone's ok and we have great neighbors who gave us their couches to sleep on, but I'm too awake. And tomorrow I get to find out how much money I have to throw at whatever broke. Fun times. Still could have been worse.
Glad you're not dead. Goes to show the value of good detectors.

I am glad we use electricity for that sort of thing here in the civilized world. What possessed the people who came up with the idea to pump flammable (and potentially explosive) gas into their homes that produces poison when burned, and then burn it is beyond me.  :P




Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 16, 2016, 12:42:46 PM
Four miles? That's considered really close here haha. The nearest Chinese place is about ten miles from my house.
Nearest chinese place to me is 48km (30miles) away.


"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Buddy

Quote from: Guardian85 on March 17, 2016, 02:40:22 PM

Nearest chinese place to me is 48km (30miles) away.

Yikes. That's how far I have to drive to school/work. Already put 700 miles on the Mini
Strange but not a stranger<br /><br />I love my car more than I love most people.

Firebird

Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 17, 2016, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 17, 2016, 02:40:22 PM

Nearest chinese place to me is 48km (30miles) away.

Yikes. That's how far I have to drive to school/work. Already put 700 miles on the Mini

Wow. Nearest one to me is 0.2 miles :) But we've always lived in more urban places. My car is 11 years old and still hasn't reached 60,000 miles.
"Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another." - Will (moderator) on replacing hotel Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

Biggus Dickus

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 17, 2016, 01:42:59 PM
Would you also like him to search for ticks? :P

Probably not a bad idea...


Quote from: jumbojak on March 17, 2016, 01:57:44 PM
Sure Bruno, you're cute. At least when you're not flinging feces at passerby. Happy?

:notworthy:
"Some people just need a high-five. In the face. With a chair."

Crow

Quote from: Firebird on March 17, 2016, 03:16:42 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 17, 2016, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 17, 2016, 02:40:22 PM

Nearest chinese place to me is 48km (30miles) away.

Yikes. That's how far I have to drive to school/work. Already put 700 miles on the Mini

Wow. Nearest one to me is 0.2 miles :) But we've always lived in more urban places. My car is 11 years old and still hasn't reached 60,000 miles.

Nearest one to me is about 10 steps.
Retired member.

Pasta Chick

Quote from: Firebird on March 17, 2016, 03:16:42 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 17, 2016, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 17, 2016, 02:40:22 PM

Nearest chinese place to me is 48km (30miles) away.

Yikes. That's how far I have to drive to school/work. Already put 700 miles on the Mini

Wow. Nearest one to me is 0.2 miles :) But we've always lived in more urban places. My car is 11 years old and still hasn't reached 60,000 miles.

Same, except you really wouldn't want to actually eat there...

Crow

Quote from: Crow on March 17, 2016, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: Firebird on March 17, 2016, 03:16:42 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 17, 2016, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 17, 2016, 02:40:22 PM

Nearest chinese place to me is 48km (30miles) away.

Yikes. That's how far I have to drive to school/work. Already put 700 miles on the Mini

Wow. Nearest one to me is 0.2 miles :) But we've always lived in more urban places. My car is 11 years old and still hasn't reached 60,000 miles.

Nearest one to me is about 10 steps.

Correction it is 29 steps.
Retired member.

xSilverPhinx

Nearest one to me is about a block away, though I haven't eaten Chinese food for around 6 years.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey