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Community => Social Issues and Causes => Topic started by: billy rubin on October 28, 2022, 10:30:44 PM

Title: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on October 28, 2022, 10:30:44 PM
in america we do this weird thing on all hallows eve where we dress up as things that we are not.

theres lots of ghostly and spooky dressing, some pretty awful grusesome and ghoulish stuff, and lots of innocent costuming.

kids in the states wander around knocking on doors to get a handful of candy from the occupants, iy ==f they are participating.

as a child, i dressed up as a hobo, a devil, a camel, and probably other stuff that i cannot remember.

lately dressing up as something you are not has become controversial:

https://www.ohio.edu/diversity/diversity-leadership-ambassadors-program/cultural-appropriation

"cultural appropriation" is a strange idea to me. it is one thing to dress up in blackface as a caricature of real african people. but is it a sin to dress up as a black musician?

what if i want to dress up as stevie wonder, or ray charles?

people do.

or wearing a kimono. the above website from a university on my state appears to assert that only japanese people can wear a kimono, only mexican people can wear a sombrero, only american indians can dress as american indians . . .

is this right?

i have read japanese people who state that they are honored to have their culture recognized and honored by someone who takes th trouble to research and dress as a member of their culture.

but i have also seen american businessmen in arizona make up fake kachina dances for their shriner-style parade acts where they wore genuine kachina costumes but made up the rest. in my opinion that crosses a line.

but where is that line? is ohio university correct, in that wearing the clothing of another culture is a social crime? what does a japanese student at ohio university wear on school days? do american indian students appropriate gringo culture by wearing blue jeans?

can a chinese student wear american  shoes without giving offence?

what is going on?
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on October 29, 2022, 12:47:47 AM
https://imgur.com/gallery/vOZ3mtY
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 29, 2022, 04:15:44 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on October 28, 2022, 10:30:44 PMin america we do this weird thing on all hallows eve where we dress up as things that we are not.

theres lots of ghostly and spooky dressing, some pretty awful grusesome and ghoulish stuff, and lots of innocent costuming.

kids in the states wander around knocking on doors to get a handful of candy from the occupants, iy ==f they are participating.

as a child, i dressed up as a hobo, a devil, a camel, and probably other stuff that i cannot remember.

lately dressing up as something you are not has become controversial:

https://www.ohio.edu/diversity/diversity-leadership-ambassadors-program/cultural-appropriation

"cultural appropriation" is a strange idea to me. it is one thing to dress up in blackface as a caricature of real african people. but is it a sin to dress up as a black musician?

what if i want to dress up as stevie wonder, or ray charles?

people do.

or wearing a kimono. the above website from a university on my state appears to assert that only japanese people can wear a kimono, only mexican people can wear a sombrero, only american indians can dress as american indians . . .

is this right?

i have read japanese people who state that they are honored to have their culture recognized and honored by someone who takes th trouble to research and dress as a member of their culture.

but i have also seen american businessmen in arizona make up fake kachina dances for their shriner-style parade acts where they wore genuine kachina costumes but made up the rest. in my opinion that crosses a line.

but where is that line? is ohio university correct, in that wearing the clothing of another culture is a social crime? what does a japanese student at ohio university wear on school days? do american indian students appropriate gringo culture by wearing blue jeans?

can a chinese student wear american  shoes without giving offence?

what is going on?

Good to see that you're asking about these things. At the same time, I'm surprised.

Quote"cultural appropriation" is a strange idea to me. it is one thing to dress up in blackface as a caricature of real african people. but is it a sin to dress up as a black musician?

what if i want to dress up as stevie wonder, or ray charles?

I thought everyone knew about this.
Blackface: A Cultural History of a Racist Art Form.

Cultural appropriation is one thing, Blackface is different, but sort of the same. I think we have to understand Blackface first to understand Cultural Appropriation.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on October 29, 2022, 07:18:15 PM
blackface is easy. its a horrible misrepresentation of another people, whether were talking al jolson singing in the first talkie, or black peter walking down the street with santa at christmas.

those fake kachina dancers in arizona added religion-- a bunch of gringo busoinessmen  dressed up as real hopi kachinas-- reaL gods that real people worshipped, then made up funny routines of dancing and so on that they oeformed in public.

this is the equivalent of a bunch of muslims dressing up as christ carrying a cross and roman soldiers whipping him as part of a cruxifixion parade, where they skipped and sang funny songs down the street in front of christians on the sidewalk.

my interest is in the nuances. i have been told that only chinese people can wear chines clothes. that only amerindians can wear a feather in their hair.

im a nominal amerindian, but im culturally a gringo. can i eat chinese food? can i wear the malay sarongs that have been my casual choice of housewear for almost sixty years?

halloween is a a holiday designed around dressing up as something that you are not, and about not taking it seriously. what are the rules? can my son dress as a medeival knight in the armour that he competes in? can he compete at all, given that he is actually not a 12th century slavic warrior?

Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 29, 2022, 09:37:26 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on October 29, 2022, 07:18:15 PMblackface is easy. its a horrible misrepresentation of another people, whether were talking al jolson singing in the first talkie, or black peter walking down the street with santa at christmas.

those fake kachina dancers in arizona added religion-- a bunch of gringo busoinessmen  dressed up as real hopi kachinas-- reaL gods that real people worshipped, then made up funny routines of dancing and so on that they oeformed in public.

this is the equivalent of a bunch of muslims dressing up as christ carrying a cross and roman soldiers whipping him as part of a cruxifixion parade, where they skipped and sang funny songs down the street in front of christians on the sidewalk.

my interest is in the nuances. i have been told that only chinese people can wear chines clothes. that only amerindians can wear a feather in their hair.

im a nominal amerindian, but im culturally a gringo. can i eat chinese food? can i wear the malay sarongs that have been my casual choice of housewear for almost sixty years?

halloween is a a holiday designed around dressing up as something that you are not, and about not taking it seriously. what are the rules? can my son dress as a medeival knight in the armour that he competes in? can he compete at all, given that he is actually not a 12th century slavic warrior?



Appropriation or Appreciation?
Context is key.

It's one thing to wear it at a special event because of admiratIon for that culture, it's another to mock it during Halloween. I, personally, don't lose any sleep over it. It would be giving ignorant people too much attention.

I'm not sure, but I think you answered yourself. "in America we do this weird thing on all hallows eve where we dress up as things that we are not."
"Halloween is a holiday designed around dressing up as something that you are not, and about not taking it seriously."
What are the rules?

—I don't know, it's your guys' holiday, you guys should know.

Like the article you posted says, "My Culture Is Not a Costume."
Is Halloween about being scary? If so, how is Blackface scary?
How is wearing a Kimono Dress scary?
How is wearing a Charro hat
scary?
If it's not, then are people hoping to get a laugh? How is that funny?

People with a relatively privileged status paint their faces black, walk around in the street for a few hours at night, go home, take it off and all is good under their blue suburban sky.
How fun, right!? You got to be black for a few hours, then you took off the "costume."
Can black people take off the,
--"being black costume?"
Can the undocumented take off the,
--"illegal alien" costume?
Were you treated the same way they were treated for that one night? Would you want to?

A medieval knight in armor. Are there many medieval knights walking around who will be offended? —I don't know.

I think the equivalent would be to watch a bunch of minorities beating up a  piñata of a president you voted for at the Whitehouse lawn once a year, every year. Some will think it's funny as hell.  Some will say, "That doesn't feel right." And we just say, "Oh, don't take it so seriously."
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on October 29, 2022, 10:43:40 PM
i dunno

ill never figure this stuff out.

im a quaker. i havent done jack shit for any halloween, or any holidays at all, for as long as i can easily remember. its not an issue for me.

what is an issue is the idea that there exist non-reciprocal relationships among people. my number two daughter expressed it in terms of power:

it is okay for a black person to call other black people niggers, but not for a white person to do so.

i get that.

then she said, it is okay for a black person to call a white person a honkie, whether the white person objects or not.

^^^this troubles me. why is it okay to be offensive in one context, but not in another?  why can a blacj person call me an offensive name, but i am not permitted to recipocate?

she explained it was a function of "power dynamics." i understand the issues she raised. but im having difficulty figuring out how the actual act of racial/cultural/ethnic insults is not important, but rather what matters is who is being insulted?

this doesnt make sense to me. if there is such a things as right and wrong, i believe it should exist independently of who is being helped or harmed.

is this an unpopular view?
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 30, 2022, 12:09:11 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on October 29, 2022, 10:43:40 PMi dunno

ill never figure this stuff out.

im a quaker. i havent done jack shit for any halloween, or any holidays at all, for as long as i can easily remember. its not an issue for me.

what is an issue is the idea that there exist non-reciprocal relationships among people. my number two daughter expressed it in terms of power:

it is okay for a black person to call other black people niggers, but not for a white person to do so.

i get that.

then she said, it is okay for a black person to call a white person a honkie, whether the white person objects or not.

^^^this troubles me. why is it okay to be offensive in one context, but not in another?  why can a blacj person call me an offensive name, but i am not permitted to recipocate?

she explained it was a function of "power dynamics." i understand the issues she raised. but im having difficulty figuring out how the actual act of racial/cultural/ethnic insults is not important, but rather what matters is who is being insulted?

this doesnt make sense to me. if there is such a things as right and wrong, i believe it should exist independently of who is being helped or harmed.

is this an unpopular view?

I dunno, Kevin,

I don't think it's OK for anyone to call other people derogatory names: honky,  wetback, nigger, etc.

I think you are permitted to reciprocate. But, if you do, if you respond with another racial slur, you have come down to their level.

Besides, why would you want to hang out with people who feel (in a twisted way), that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution was put there to protect and give them the right to insult you?
Is this like, "legal verbal abuse?"
—According to them?  :-\
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on October 30, 2022, 01:00:20 AM
i dont.

QuoteI don't think it's OK for anyone to call other people derogatory names: honky,  wetback, nigger, etc.

^^^this is th ekey.

why cant we just get along?

i look at all people as equals. if i work to give them respect, i want to see that they share that value, and would choose to extend respect in return.

if they cant or wont do that, then fuck em. i will choose my company among people who share mutual respect as a value.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 30, 2022, 01:20:55 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on October 30, 2022, 01:00:20 AMi don't.

QuoteI don't think it's OK for anyone to call other people derogatory names: honky,  wetback, nigger, etc.

^^^this is the key.

why can't we just get along?
That, my friend, is the sixty-four thousand dollar question.
:sad sigh:

Quote from: billy rubin on October 30, 2022, 01:00:20 AMI look at all people as equals. if I work to give them respect, I want to see that they share that value, and would choose to extend respect in return.

if they can't or won't do that, then fuck them. i will choose my company among people who share mutual respect as a value.
Mutual respect as a value is rare and precious. I, like you, don't understand why can't we just get along either. There are times when I believe in the goodness of humanity, but other times, I think our sense of compassion, acceptance, and just basic decency is deteriorating.

We see someone different and negative stereotypes flood our brains, so we either attack or become defensive before they even speak. This goes for all races, nationalities, ethnicities, etc.

MLK was right, his famous words apply to everyone.
(https://bookmarketingbestsellers.com/wp-content/uploads/Martin-Luther-King-I-Have-a-Dream.jpg)
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on October 30, 2022, 07:26:35 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 30, 2022, 01:20:55 AMMLK was right, his famous words apply to everyone.
(https://bookmarketingbestsellers.com/wp-content/uploads/Martin-Luther-King-I-Have-a-Dream.jpg)
Well... The culture that saw race as a point of significant biological and/or social difference largely gave way to a culture that refused to see it as something at all special or noteworthy, which in turn largely gave way to a culture that refuses to see anything past race. Actually, let me amend that; it refuses to see beyond victimhood, usually of the most superficial variety.

I think that in their chase of whatever utopian dream it is they profess, people may have stared in the proverbial abyss a tad too long, and now... The gadgets get fancier, but history - it repeats, as it does.

Getting along... Yeah, it's a nice dream. Personally, I'd be content with "us" just giving less of a fuck about that, which is none of our business unless specifically invited into it. If I don't care where you come from or to what you pray or how you take your coffee - then I probably don't care to hold any of that against you, no?
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 30, 2022, 09:18:06 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on October 30, 2022, 07:26:35 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 30, 2022, 01:20:55 AMMLK was right, his famous words apply to everyone.
(https://bookmarketingbestsellers.com/wp-content/uploads/Martin-Luther-King-I-Have-a-Dream.jpg)
Well... The culture that saw race as a point of significant biological and/or social difference largely gave way to a culture that refused to see it as something at all special or noteworthy, which in turn largely gave way to a culture that refuses to see anything past race. Actually, let me amend that; it refuses to see beyond victimhood, usually of the most superficial variety.

I think that in their chase of whatever utopian dream it is they profess, people may have stared in the proverbial abyss a tad too long, and now... The gadgets get fancier, but history - it repeats, as it does.

Getting along... Yeah, it's a nice dream. Personally, I'd be content with "us" just giving less of a fuck about that, which is none of our business unless specifically invited into it. If I don't care where you come from or to what you pray or how you take your coffee - then I probably don't care to hold any of that against you, no?

Only you, Asmo, and maybe Tom62, would find negativity in that quote. I see absolutely nothing about  victimhood there. I don't know how you managed to go from there to there.
...But I will follow your words/advice, and, "...give less of a fuck about that."
 :levitate:
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on October 30, 2022, 10:57:02 PM

im starting to give more of a fuck, period.

i used to just let the racists talk, and not call them on it, because there was no point, you know? theyll never change.

lately ive started to speak my mind more and more, and to let the racists know that theyre not in a safe place around me. i have a ways to go, but i call the fuckers out more and more these days.

its not hard to envision a world where we just get along with each other. i prefer not to live in a world where people express hate and hostility in security. i want them to be on the defensive every time they spew it out, t least around me.

im still getting there, because i tend not to confront people, you know? its a habit thats going away.  ive been cnfronting more and more of these shitheads lately and im not likely to get any nicer as time goes on, because im getting more polarized and less interested in getting along.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: No one on October 31, 2022, 12:33:03 AM
Humans with deep stew lines and diverse cross pollination taste the best.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Icarus on October 31, 2022, 01:40:59 AM
Sad to learn that Halloween has not gone well in Seoul.  Some kind of Halloween crowd rush has killed more than 100. WTF  ???

 
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Bluenose on October 31, 2022, 03:52:26 AM
I went to a combined halloween/birthday party on Saturday night.  Live band playing 70s and 80s covers.  It was a blast!

(https://scontent.fmel5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/311637134_5910943372270126_7471083793855616424_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=aymTBHT-dTAAX8dGPJX&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel5-1.fna&oh=00_AfANaPY2Q1jIE9y8rBDlF9nv1Djs4QGcXkoDOvyZH9LYtg&oe=63637A97)
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Bluenose on October 31, 2022, 03:53:23 AM
Quote from: Icarus on October 31, 2022, 01:40:59 AMSad to learn that Halloween has not gone well in Seoul.  Some kind of Halloween crowd rush has killed more than 100. WTF  ???

 

So sad    :'(
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 07:27:01 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 30, 2022, 09:18:06 PMOnly you, Asmo, and maybe Tom62,
Well, we occupy broadly similar political niche. That said,

Quotewould find negativity in that quote. I see absolutely nothing about  victimhood there. I don't know how you managed to go from there to there.
...But I will follow your words/advice, and, "...give less of a fuck about that."
 :levitate:
That is not how I see it though. Mr. King wanted his kids to grow up in a place that judges people by the content of their character, rather than the colour of their skin.

So... What kind of place has the United States* become since the fifties and sixties, when I assume his kids were born? Well, if you pardon some spicy pixels on the screen, it went from "Niggers bad," through "I don't see color so hard, I end up seeing nothing else" to "Understanding Multiracial Whiteness" <- part of a real news/op-ed article, that. In any case;

People who give a shit about such matters went from racist to different racist to everything is racist. The old groupings still exist, of course, but are not as dominant in media or the wider culture. People who don't give a shit... Still don't, though more and more are being dragged into a debate and "forced" to take sides. Letting them mind their own business as they would like to would be a good start, I think.

Long story short, yes, it would be nice if King Jr. Jrs had such a world to grow up in, but they don't. What negativity is there, is not in the quote or the aspiration therein - it's in a world that "always" tries fighting fire with fire, then "always" complains about getting nothing but burned.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 10:52:36 AM
excellent!

wait

backlevel

sorry
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Tom62 on October 31, 2022, 12:46:47 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 07:27:01 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 30, 2022, 09:18:06 PMOnly you, Asmo, and maybe Tom62,
Well, we occupy broadly similar political niche. That said,

Quotewould find negativity in that quote. I see absolutely nothing about  victimhood there. I don't know how you managed to go from there to there.
...But I will follow your words/advice, and, "...give less of a fuck about that."
 :levitate:
That is not how I see it though. Mr. King wanted his kids to grow up in a place that judges people by the content of their character, rather than the colour of their skin.

So... What kind of place has the United States* become since the fifties and sixties, when I assume his kids were born? Well, if you pardon some spicy pixels on the screen, it went from "Niggers bad," through "I don't see color so hard, I end up seeing nothing else" to "Understanding Multiracial Whiteness" <- part of a real news/op-ed article, that. In any case;

People who give a shit about such matters went from racist to different racist to everything is racist. The old groupings still exist, of course, but are not as dominant in media or the wider culture. People who don't give a shit... Still don't, though more and more are being dragged into a debate and "forced" to take sides. Letting them mind their own business as they would like to would be a good start, I think.

Long story short, yes, it would be nice if King Jr. Jrs had such a world to grow up in, but they don't. What negativity is there, is not in the quote or the aspiration therein - it's in a world that "always" tries fighting fire with fire, then "always" complains about getting nothing but burned.

I agree with the Asmo here. I care about the individual person and don't give a shit what the colour of your skin is; what gender you have or what group you "belong" in (or are attributed to). Furthermore, I don't feel responsible for anything that my great-, great-, great- parents might have done centuries ago.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 01:34:52 PM
Indeed. You see, Tom and I are what ye-average keyboard warrior on Twitter would call a pair of nazis. How very dare we promote individualism and meritocracy? Don't we know that Hitler... Yeah. He did neither.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 01:40:48 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on October 30, 2022, 10:57:02 PMim starting to give more of a fuck, period.

i used to just let the racists talk, and not call them on it, because there was no point, you know? theyll never change.

lately ive started to speak my mind more and more, and to let the racists know that theyre not in a safe place around me. i have a ways to go, but i call the fuckers out more and more these days.

its not hard to envision a world where we just get along with each other. i prefer not to live in a world where people express hate and hostility in security. i want them to be on the defensive every time they spew it out, t least around me.

im still getting there, because i tend not to confront people, you know? its a habit thats going away.  ive been cnfronting more and more of these shitheads lately and im not likely to get any nicer as time goes on, because im getting more polarized and less interested in getting along.

(https://c.tenor.com/Ww2bBYOq37wAAAAC/clap-most-interesting-man.gif)
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 01:43:02 PM
Quote from: Bluenose on October 31, 2022, 03:52:26 AMI went to a combined halloween/birthday party on Saturday night.  Live band playing 70s and 80s covers.  It was a blast!

(https://scontent.fmel5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/311637134_5910943372270126_7471083793855616424_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=aymTBHT-dTAAX8dGPJX&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel5-1.fna&oh=00_AfANaPY2Q1jIE9y8rBDlF9nv1Djs4QGcXkoDOvyZH9LYtg&oe=63637A97)
:grin:
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 01:48:24 PM
individualism and a meritocracy are lofty ideals, but they operate on the underlying assumption of equality in education, in opportunity, and in access to those pathways that operate based on merit and individual achievement.

in my country that does not yet exist. i believe in advancing all citizens to the same starting line on the track. those people who have been denied access to the relevant training, equipment, and sponsorship should get it, not because they are victims, but because no race is a fair race when some people get a head start and other people are forced to accept a handicap.

once everybody runs the same race, all the talk about individual effort and merit is relevant. but in my country we have other tasks to accomplish first.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 01:49:22 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 01:34:52 PMIndeed. You see, Tom and I are what ye-average keyboard warrior on Twitter would call a pair of nazis. ...
:notsure:
Not sure if you're bragging or complaining.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 02:06:30 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on October 31, 2022, 12:46:47 PM...Furthermore, I don't feel responsible for anything that my great-, great-, great- parents might have done centuries ago.

"great-, great-, great- parents" and "Centuries" sounds like a long-, long-, long- time ago, WW II wasn't that far back.

My grandpa was born in 1901.
He was about 40 years old during WW II. And about 16, during WW I.
Great-, great-, great-grandpa would be waaaaayyy back.

—Just saying.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 02:22:16 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 01:49:22 PMNot sure if you're bragging or complaining.
for me personally, annoying them Twitterati is a bit of a point of pride. Not a lot - just... Mildly satisfying.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 01:48:24 PMindividualism and a meritocracy are lofty ideals, but they operate on the underlying assumption of equality in education, in opportunity, and in access to those pathways that operate based on merit and individual achievement.
I disagree on both accounts. There is very little lofty to individualism and meritocracy - in fact, they are closer to populist ideas than some academic cloud-gazing.

Within a society, Individualism addresses the rights and obligations of an individual and holds the individual as a sovereign/supreme unit of society. On the opposing end, Collectivism views the society as a group of groups, where the individual's core value is in the groups with which that individual is involved.

As for meritocracy, it does exist in the USA. For instance, if you are a very good car mechanic, in the long run, you are likely to attract more customers than a borderline-scammer within the same price range and area of business. (I can go full complexity on this thing if you find it interesting. There is more to it - and some ways around it, to a degree)

Quotein my country that does not yet exist. i believe in advancing all citizens to the same starting line on the track.
Over here, everyone has to finish ten years of school. Higher education is available, but the access is largely based on merit. (Those with the best grades get the available spots first) I think that's a fine system.

Beyond that, I don't think you can mandate people to have a home, be responsible with their income, take care of their health, etc.

I think the best you can hope for, is legal equality, which, from what I understand, the United States largely has.

Quotethose people who have been denied access to the relevant training, equipment, and sponsorship should get it, not because they are victims, but because no race is a fair race when some people get a head start and other people are forced to accept a handicap.
What you are proposing though, it necessitates precisely giving people with some sort of handicap a head start (alternatively, hold those without back) because we do not indeed start on the same line - we are not born clones of each other and between biology, circumstance and upbringing, there are as many lines out there as there are people.

Quoteonce everybody runs the same race, all the talk about individual effort and merit is relevant.
That is simply untrue. You can climb your proverbial hill smarter, harder and longer than the other guy. Your success, however you measure it, is yours to create - be it with or against the odds.

On a side note, I'm not sure how much you put into the word "effort." If it is a key word, than we are probably talking past each other when it comes to meritocracy. It's merit, not effort, that counts. As in, how proficient/successful you are in what you do - not how hard you do it. It's what you can show for it.

Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 03:31:29 PM
you clearly have never visited an oklahoma niggertown, asmo. lots of oklahoma toens have one. they hsve them in texas too.

unpaved roads, no sewers, substandard schools. until the 1950s you could be arrested in oklahomas white sundown towns if you were black and there after dark. arrest was the preferred outcome. signal mountain in tennessee is still like that.

some places in america abolished all public schools in the 1950s rather than let black kids go to school with white kids. the white kids got taxpayer subsidized private education. the black kids got no education, for a whole generation. theyre still around, but always behind

in american indian reservations, there often is no access to the benefits you describe in your country. look uo pine ridge in the dakotas. the poorest place in the western hemisphere, after haiti, i think.

the american military is an exampke of an institution that works on providing equal starting lines. ill try to find the name of the program.

got to go
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Tom62 on October 31, 2022, 05:47:47 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 02:06:30 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on October 31, 2022, 12:46:47 PM...Furthermore, I don't feel responsible for anything that my great-, great-, great- parents might have done centuries ago.

"great-, great-, great- parents" and "Centuries" sounds like a long-, long-, long- time ago, WW II wasn't that far back.

My grandpa was born in 1901.
He was about 40 years old during WW II. And about 16, during WW I.
Great-, great-, great-grandpa would be waaaaayyy back.

—Just saying.

My country was neutral during WW-I and occupied by the Germans in WW-II. We no longer hold the current generation of Germans accountable for what their parents and grandparents did in both wars. We don't forget but we also also have no grievances. Lessons learned, time to move forward because it is stupid to stay stuck in the past.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Biggus Dickus on October 31, 2022, 06:28:58 PM
When I clicked on a thread in the Laid Back Lounge titled Halloween I wasn't expecting to see the "N-word" being thrown around (Especially by an Administrator). What happened, did Elon Musk purchase both Twitter and HAF?

Is this place now going to be known as the "Happy Aryan Forum"?

Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 06:35:50 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on October 31, 2022, 05:47:47 PMMy country was neutral during WW-I and occupied by the Germans in WW II. We no longer hold the current generation of Germans accountable for what their parents and grandparents did in both wars. We don't forget but we also have no grievances. Lessons learned, time to move forward because it is stupid to stay stuck in the past.


Good.

However, here, in the USA, the lesson hasn't been learned yet. People can't move forward and they/we have grievances because the descendants of slave owners and their hateful ideas and treatment of blacks and minorities refuse to move forwards with the times.

We can't "forget" or "forgive" yet if they continue to find "legal" ways to keep us down, call us derogatory names, laugh and deny it when we confront them, and even find it something to be proud of. They find "annoying" us...
"Not a lot - just... Mildly  satisfying."
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 06:59:23 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on October 31, 2022, 06:28:58 PM...

Is this place now going to be known as the "Happy Aryan Forum"?


(https://media2.giphy.com/media/8FhXc8w45aN32/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9521d55b069e721e57fc730a0df79f3b1111dca70b4&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)

Anyone...?

(https://giphy.com/gifs/teacher-anyone-ferris-bueller-8FhXc8w45aN32)

(https://media.tenor.com/y_NstAiXiWUAAAAM/anyone-jeff.gif)
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 07:02:58 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on October 31, 2022, 06:28:58 PMWhen I clicked on a thread in the Laid Back Lounge titled Halloween I wasn't expecting to see the "N-word" being thrown around (Especially by an Administrator)
...Who used it to contextualise a different time. I wouldn't call that "throwing around."

That said, true, this is probably not Lounge material.

Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 03:31:29 PMyou clearly have never visited an oklahoma niggertown, asmo. lots of oklahoma toens have one. they hsve them in texas too.

unpaved roads, no sewers, substandard schools. until the 1950s you could be arrested in oklahomas white sundown towns if you were black and there after dark. arrest was the preferred outcome. signal mountain in tennessee is still like that.
Do any of those unpaved roads lead to other places? Perhaps somewhere where there is a general deficit of labour and/or surplus of money for an enterprising individual who intends to try his hand at making a buck?

Quotesome places in america abolished all public schools in the 1950s rather than let black kids go to school with white kids. the white kids got taxpayer subsidized private education. the black kids got no education, for a whole generation. theyre still around, but always behind
That could be solved in the way I mentioned when talking about my own country as an example. You do not have many obligations as a kid here, but ten years of school is one of them.

Quotein american indian reservations, there often is no access to the benefits you describe in your country. look uo pine ridge in the dakotas. the poorest place in the western hemisphere, after haiti, i think.
...and from what I understand, a lot of people leave in search of better opportunities. Doesn't sound like they are being held back by the society, as such. We have some places around here where people don't stick around because no future. Those who do... Make a choice.

Quotethe american military is an exampke of an institution that works on providing equal starting lines. ill try to find the name of the program.
I suspect a no-skill job may do pretty much the same.

QuoteHowever, here, in the USA, the lesson hasn't been learned yet. People can't move forward and they/we have grievances because the descendants of slave owners and their hateful ideas and treatment of blacks and minorities refuse to move forwards with the times.

We can't "forget" or "forgive" yet if they continue to find "legal" ways to keep us down, call us derogatory names, laugh and deny it when we confront them, and even find it something to be proud of. They find "annoying" us...
"Not a lot - just... Mildly  satisfying."

[Jack Sparrow]You seem familiar. Have I annoyed you on Twitter before?[/Sparrow] ;-) Actually, my quote doesn't fit. Most of those hissy fits on Twitter are from European/white American middle-class whiners and opiners, and even if they were other than huwhite and middle-class... If all you [not you-you - no idea what your accomplishments are] do is whine about how unfairly the world is treating your deserving self, then maybe go out and get a few receipts for having tried. For instance, if you show what you had to sacrifice and who you had to burn to get nowhere - you will probably have me in your corner, not on the troll team. After all, I'm not some equal opportunity offender. I have nothing but respect for people trying to make the best of whatever hand they sit on - within acceptable limits, of course. (Like, very little respect for hitmen or drug peddlers or the like)

That out of the way... A pretty serious accusation there. How specifically are the descendants of the slave owners keeping you down? Do you even know that they do, in fact, descend thusly and that the people being kept down do not? If so, do you judge their forefathers by the standards of the times in which they lived, or by that in which you live?

Is there such a thing as the original sin outside the context of religion? If not, then why does it matter what someone's forefathers did and who they were? If there is, how does it apply?
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 07:45:09 PM

Quote from: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 01:49:22 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 01:34:52 PMIndeed. You see, Tom and I are what ye-average keyboard warrior on Twitter would call a pair of nazis. ...
:notsure:
Not sure if you're bragging or complaining.



Quote from: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 02:22:16 PMfor me personally, annoying them Twitterati is a bit of a point of pride. Not a lot - just... Mildly satisfying.


Oh, annoying people on Twitter.
How very revolutionary of you.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 07:59:06 PM
:lol: "Revolutionary." Not something I've ever been called before. I like it, though the shoe well and truly doesn't fit - I have not one revolutionary bone in my body. Reformer all the way.

No, what I generally tend to do is point out hypocrisy. Sometimes the blatant racism of the "anti-racists." They tend to explode their heads and ban my accounts. Just ye average Internet drama.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 08:31:11 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 07:59:06 PM:lol: "Revolutionary." Not something I've ever been called before. I like it, though the shoe well and truly doesn't fit - I have not one revolutionary bone in my body. Reformer all the way.

No, what I generally tend to do is point out hypocrisy. Sometimes the blatant racism of the "anti-racists." They tend to explode their heads and ban my accounts. Just ye average Internet drama.

Ok.
"Just ye average Internet drama." And now you want to bring it here.
Nice.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Biggus Dickus on October 31, 2022, 08:41:27 PM
The hypocrisy of anti-racists.

Reminds me of the response Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina gave to President Biden's address to a joint session of Congress some time back. Senator Scott said that progressives are intent on teaching people that, "if they look a certain way, they're an oppressor", and that, "woke supremacy is as bad as white supremacy".

It's really a stunning how the Senator, and I guess some here see themselves as almost anti-anti-racists. Lumping all things racial, and contemptible under the banner of critical race theory maybe?

Trying to rescue themselves, and their fellow racists, no matter where they're from not only an accurate account of their own history, but from having to deal with the repercussions of that history, and the heavy amount of racism that still exists in the world today (Not saying we should feel guilty for the acts or roles of our ancestors, but that we should acknowledge the damage it has caused, and the harm and discord it is still inflicting to this day).

Basically these anti-anti-racists seek is to absolve racists of the worst practices of their history, while actually resurrecting the very practices that were the cause for indictment in the first place.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 09:05:22 PM
Anyways, today is Halloween.

Tank,
This was such a fun place to come to. Thank you for trying to give us a place where we could talk about anything. Respectfully.

I was gonna send the following letter to Bruno, but I'm gonna sent it to you instead.

Quote
I don't know if I want to stoop down to their level.
:-\

...You know, use derogatory terms to prove my point.

Don't want to show my ugly side to nice people who don't come here to see/read/hear that.

I'll just do a peaceful protest and ask Tank to ban me for a long time.

It's time for me to go.
:chasingbutterfly:
A lot of people have said that to me. Directly and indirectly. I don't appreciate my reality and pain --being mildly satisfying to a Nazi anymore. Never did.

~Hate is so hard to fight. I don't feel like it anymore.
It's like, no, thank you. Please.

Please ban me for a long time.
"Mejor sola,  que mal acompañada."
 :devil2:
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 10:16:29 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 08:31:11 PMAnd now you want to bring it here.
Nice.
Did no such thing. Did not call any-one here out for anything they said.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 10:45:20 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 10:16:29 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 08:31:11 PMAnd now you want to bring it here.
Nice.
Did no such thing. Did not call any-one here out for anything they said.

OK.

Still, could you ban me then?
Please.
You have the power to do it as well.
Tank is taking too long.

...Besides, you asked the other day:
Quote from: Asmodean on October 24, 2022, 02:24:53 PM... Thing is though, in the current discourse climate, who would we attract? One of the vocal minorities? The apathetic majority? The French?
The unapologetic nazis on Twitter...perhaps?

I'm begging you to ban me.
I don't care who you bring here anymore.

Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 11:04:26 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on October 31, 2022, 06:28:58 PMWhen I clicked on a thread in the Laid Back Lounge titled Halloween I wasn't expecting to see the "N-word" being thrown around (Especially by an Administrator). What happened, did Elon Musk purchase both Twitter and HAF?

Is this place now going to be known as the "Happy Aryan Forum"?



hi papasito

"nigger" is a perjorative term used by a lot of people in my life.

its an ugly word, and when well-intentioned people try to soften the impact of its use, i think they do a disservice to the people the word is intended to marginalize.

white people in my life use "nigger" to make sure that we all know who those in power are, who tjose with the money are, and who those with the moral high ground are.

i think its important to meet these people where they are, to point out what the weapons they use are, and to make sure that its very clear what tools they use to keep other people in inferior positions.

ever had a total stranger in a texas aeroplane turn to you and say, "arent we nice white people?," when a black man didnt want to give up his aisle seat to a white person, and i did? i have .

ever had a total stranger meet you at a party, and tell you a joke to break the ice?

"what do you call a black man with a PhD?"

(the answer is "nigger.")

the N-word is something that black people put up with every day where i live. to pretend that the word doesnt exist isnt doing any black people any favours. i think pointing out exactly where black people are being marginalized in th ewords that are being used pulls back the curtain and drops the fig leaf.

"nigger" is not a nice word. but pointing out when it is being used and by whom is the best way to emphasize its offensiveniss.

in my opinion anyway.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 11:32:24 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 11:04:26 PM... th ewords that are being used pulls back the curtain and drops the fig leaf.

...
Wow! This reveals a lot more than what a fig leaf covers. It shows all the way up to the prostate.

I'm gonna stop posting because having to get drunk on a Monday afternoon to numb the pain, reveals a lot about how I feel right now.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: No one on November 01, 2022, 12:23:34 AM
Can we all agree that humanity would be better with less humans?
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Biggus Dickus on November 01, 2022, 12:37:46 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 10:45:20 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on October 31, 2022, 10:16:29 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 08:31:11 PMAnd now you want to bring it here.
Nice.
Did no such thing. Did not call any-one here out for anything they said.

OK.

Still, could you ban me then?
Please.
You have the power to do it as well.
Tank is taking too long.

...Besides, you asked the other day:
Quote from: Asmodean on October 24, 2022, 02:24:53 PM... Thing is though, in the current discourse climate, who would we attract? One of the vocal minorities? The apathetic majority? The French?
The unapologetic nazis on Twitter...perhaps?

I'm begging you to ban me.
I don't care who you bring here anymore.



I know lately I don't come around the forum as often as I did, so my absence won't be missed, but you can  ban me along with Mags.

She goes I go...not going to let her do this alone.

Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Recusant on November 01, 2022, 06:13:26 AM
Seeing as I'm currently sporting as my avatar (and previously used for well over a decade) an image of a writer who is now widely considered a racist, I don't have a good soap box from which I might deliver a meaningful contribution here.

That said, I have lived in the US most of my life. I have also lived in Europe. Long enough to understand that the cultures do not really understand each other very well. Speaking too broadly perhaps, the image Europeans have of the US is colored by their own history. Also there is a tendency to believe that experience of the demographic changes in Europe gives some sort of insight into the American experience. The image Americans have of Europe is colored by jingoistic insularity and ignorance. Both images are false.

For several years I lived in a few different black neighborhoods in a big city. That doesn't mean I know  the full impact of racism in America, but the everyday experience did give me some grasp of it. TV and film rarely if ever give an accurate idea--the stories are generally framed by writers who really don't have a clue, written for dramatic impact rather than verisimilitude. The wide availability of American entertainment product across the world may lead people to think they understand America better than they actually do.

I have also lived in rural America. The impact of racism is evident there as well, in the remarkably prevalent prejudices and attitudes. See billy rubin's comments.

I don't think anybody here is on the side of the racists. On the other hand (and maybe I am mistaken) I think there is a reactionary holding of contempt for those who earnestly oppose racism. Willingness to give credence to mendacious grifters who express a similar position can be the result. Check your sources.

I am not one to censor speech, but bland usage of a term that is inherently a rhetorical cudgel (the language of oppression and brutality) is really unnecessary in my opinion, unless the intention is to inflict pain or to burnish your edgelord status. If you intend neither, it advisable to not use that sort of language. Instead, you have the opportunity to write more eloquently--to express your opinion without resorting to language known for its hurtful nature.

The damage is done.  :headshake:

Moving this thread to a more appropriate board.

Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Tank on November 01, 2022, 07:40:43 AM
I'm going to contact Go Daddy to find out how to close HAF. Does anybody want it?



Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on November 01, 2022, 07:55:33 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 10:45:20 PMStill, could you ban me then?
Please.
You have the power to do it as well.
Tank is taking too long.
Sorry for a delayed reply - it was night time where I'm at.

While I technically could, that would be overstepping my admin mandate. I'm sorry, but I will not do that.

I broadly agree with the above, except I think that a word without context is nothing but wind. I think good faith argument is a good thing. Billy and I, for instance, have at it regularly with our opposing world views, me arguing from the perspective of the United States and the wider world that I know and live in - Billy from the perspective of the nation and the World he knows and lives in. They may be the same/overlapping geographically, but in the immortal words of Dire Straits, "we have just one world, but we live in different ones."

Yes, we are unlikely to agree on much, unless forced to compromise, but he makes some points I find both interesting and valid in certain circumstances, and I hope I return the favour. In such a discussion, if a linguistic cudgel is not aimed at any-one, but just set on the table in all its gory splendor to provide proper setting with its weight and implications, then personally, I think it belongs there.

That was how and why I used it in my response to Magdalena's post. That's what I see when I read Billy's subsequent posts, though his intended reasons may vary. In what is supposed to be a casual part of the forum, I should not have done that. The proper way to do it would have been to either follow Recusant's advice above, or quote the post into another thread and carry on there. That was laziness rather than intent, and for that, and the ensuing hurt, I apologize.



Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on November 01, 2022, 01:50:42 PM
vkl
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on November 02, 2022, 04:51:51 AM
Over the years, I have been apologized to so many times here by so many of you for one thing or another.

I forgive you.
I always do.

But this has to end. One can only forgive so many times. It's OK. I just have to remember what my life was like before I met you guys.

Chris, please don't contact Go Daddy to close HAF. No one here can run this place better than you.




Please ban me.
Beam me up, Scottie.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Recusant on November 03, 2022, 05:04:45 AM
:-\  Is one month sufficient? 
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Recusant on November 03, 2022, 05:21:55 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on November 03, 2022, 03:10:10 AMAs D. H. Lawrence , James Joyce, and Henry Miller tried to show, words in themselves are neutral; it's the context of their use that can make them offensive.

I don't agree. The function of words is to carry meaning. They do not function outside of context, and some words carry their own context as well as meaning. A word which came into existence in the context of/for the purpose of demeaning and subjugating people and continues to be used for that is not neutral, in my opinion.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: hermes2015 on November 03, 2022, 06:12:59 AM
Quote from: Recusant on November 03, 2022, 05:21:55 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on November 03, 2022, 03:10:10 AMAs D. H. Lawrence , James Joyce, and Henry Miller tried to show, words in themselves are neutral; it's the context of their use that can make them offensive.

I don't agree. The function of words is to carry meaning. They do not function outside of context, and some words carry their own context as well as meaning. A word which came into existence in the context of/for the purpose of demeaning and subjugating people and continues to be used for that is not neutral, in my opinion.

Granted, but I meant that in Lady Chatterley's Lover, for example, he used certain four letter words usually used as swear words, in their original, linguistically correct way to describe actions and body parts. He wanted to show that it was perfectly acceptable to use them in polite society, provided that they were used in their correct English meaning. But, I guess, we live in the real world and Lawrence's dream isn't achievable.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Tom62 on November 03, 2022, 09:37:19 AM
Could also be culture related. I grew up in a time and place where words just didn't matter. We found it rather silly that in the US words were beeped out, because they were considered to be "offensive". We thought it was quite normal to be very direct and use very innovative curses.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on November 03, 2022, 10:25:53 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on November 03, 2022, 09:37:19 AMCould also be culture related. I grew up in a time and place where words just didn't matter. We found it rather silly that in the US words were beeped out, because they were considered to be "offensive". We thought it was quite normal to be very direct and use very innovative curses.
I hang out with gamers, where that still very much applies. I'd say two out of three Discord servers I frequent work like that, so... Not a thing of the past, I'd say, though perhaps a thing of certain specific cultures.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on November 03, 2022, 03:32:21 PM
Quote from: Recusant on November 03, 2022, 05:04:45 AM:-\  Is one month sufficient?

billy rubin said:
"...white people in my life use "nigger" to make sure that we all know who those in power are, who tjose with the money are, and who those with the moral high ground are."

Knowing that now, Asmo called an entire race: "Niggers bad".

For how long would someone in another forum be banned for that?

Whatever your answer is, apply it to me and my dear friend, Snowflake.

I'll let you guys figure out how to use the word.

Thank you for everything, Casey.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Biggus Dickus on November 03, 2022, 05:43:26 PM
Hey Mags,

I figured if they don't ban me as I've requested I'd probably have to provoke them in some way, but if the following is okay with them, then I'm going to have to get really fucking creative.

:headscratch:

Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 11:04:26 PM"what do you call a black man with a PhD?"

(the answer is "nigger.")


Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Recusant on November 04, 2022, 05:49:42 AM
Note that in my previous comments I did not claim that context is irrelevant. I do not see an intention to disparage black people in the particular usage of the word in question. Rather an argument about society is presented with zealous adherence to unrestricted expression. Free expression is something everyone values. Where that value stands in relation to others is the question. Some would see avoiding inflicting harm unnecessarily as a value which takes precedence over absolute free expression.

Does use of a racist term make you a racist? I believe that context determines the answer to that. Does any use of a racist term automatically qualify as hate speech? This cuts closer to the issue and is worthy of discussion. I have my own opinion on the matter but I would hope that some sort of consensus could be reached.

As for the standards that apply at another forum, I don't visit that many on a regular basis myself. One that I know of has a simple guiding principle: "play nice." As in, don't engage in personal attacks. No restrictions on language, but somebody who more or less casually used a powerful racial slur would definitely get an earful from other members.

Another has a similar central principle, but with much wider latitude: "no personal harassment." As in, personal attacks are fine, but no go if you start chasing somebody around to pursue a flame war, you baby.  Again, language is not restricted, and again, fellow members will definitely and viciously call you out for self-indulgence in that sphere. To wit: I got berated rather nastily for denying that the tune of "Turkey in the Straw" is inherently racist.  :shrug:

For non-atheist discussion boards, the rules tend to be more strict. I enjoyed a small political discussion board that was completely unmoderated for several years. When a moderator was appointed and began to enforce his version of "family friendly" I admit I lost interest.
 
Personally I am not in favor of banning words, even words that are seen by many as inherently harmful and pernicious. I also think that it is vital to call out and denounce the use of such words, even in a context in which the word is not intended as hate speech.

For doing that, you deserve thanks rather than banning, Magdalena.

My limited experience has warped my gauge: In moderator discussion I would not argue for a suspension for the post in question, as I hope I have explained above. However as I said, my approach is to attempt to reach consensus. If enough of the other members of staff were to support a suspension I would accept the consensus.

The last few people that we roped into helping on moderation staff have wandered, and it is almost entirely Tank and myself now. He and I haven't discussed this in the moderation space--my comments are here. This site is mostly self-moderating now anyway. . .

To satisfy honor, I would impose a one week ban on the both of yas, but only with his agreement.  :spaghetti:  :felix:

 :spock:
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on November 04, 2022, 01:10:02 PM
Please ban me indefinitely.
I'm done here.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Biggus Dickus on November 04, 2022, 07:40:53 PM
I guess to get banned I'll have to resort to personal attacks, so here goes!


Recusant: "You sir, are a silly mod...your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries".

Tank: "I fart in your general direction".

- nos vamos!
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on November 04, 2022, 08:33:50 PM
Quote from: Bebé Bruno on November 04, 2022, 07:40:53 PMTank: "I fart in your general direction".
Didn't ban The Asmo for cursing his rusty turret over an impersonation issue, and this is pretty much that. ;)

The admins who manage member relations (Tank and Recusant) will generally not act single-handedly in matters involving established members. If it's quiet from their end, they probably have not reached consensus on a course of action. It can take time.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Tank on November 05, 2022, 02:24:52 PM
Quote from: Bebé Bruno on November 04, 2022, 07:40:53 PMI guess to get banned I'll have to resort to personal attacks, so here goes!


Recusant: "You sir, are a silly mod...your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries".

Tank: "I fart in your general direction".

- nos vamos!

:rofl:
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on November 05, 2022, 08:46:21 PM
Quote from: Bebé Bruno on November 03, 2022, 05:43:26 PMHey Mags,

I figured if they don't ban me as I've requested I'd probably have to provoke them in some way, but if the following is okay with them, then I'm going to have to get really fucking creative.

:headscratch:

Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 11:04:26 PM"what do you call a black man with a PhD?"

(the answer is "nigger.")




that example was to illustrate real world conditions in a place where i once lived and where those conditions still obtain. people i knew and considered to be my friends had to deal with it every day.

the fact that you find it offensive and demeaning to a group of people but millions of americans in texas do not care is exactly the point i was making.

if people here find the appearance of the word to be offensive in all contexts, then that is good enough for me, and i will not use the word or words like it.

but in my opinion a frank discussion of the evils of racial prejudice is hindered if we have to tiptoe around how it is inflicted on people.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Bluenose on November 06, 2022, 01:37:20 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 04, 2022, 01:10:02 PMPlease ban me indefinitely.
I'm done here.

Admins: please don't.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on November 08, 2022, 06:33:07 PM
I'm sorry for bothering you, again, but I believe you guys have had enough time to ban me.
I don't know what you're waiting for.
—Please don't make me "bump" this thread every week so that this is the first post your new members see.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Dark Lightning on November 08, 2022, 11:10:00 PM
^ Wow. "See what you made me do?" Really? You might take a little time to see how this makes you look.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on November 08, 2022, 11:58:05 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on November 08, 2022, 11:10:00 PM^ Wow. "See what you made me do?" Really? You might take a little time to see how this makes you look.

I am asking to be banned.

—You think I care about how this makes me look? You think this is about, me?
Wow.

I don't see any, "See what you made me do?"

Some of you did this to yourselves.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Recusant on November 09, 2022, 03:51:16 PM
OK, I have now posted in the moderation space about this, Magdalena. Sorry for the delay.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Biggus Dickus on November 09, 2022, 04:22:10 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on November 08, 2022, 11:10:00 PM^ Wow. "See what you made me do?" Really? You might take a little time to see how this makes you look.

Wow Mags,

What are you thinking? I mean why would you post something so outrageous like this, do you know how that makes you look?

Just kidding...I don't get it. I mean folks can post racial crap like below, but not a word of discouragement or disgust from ole Dark Lightning. Not that's strange!


Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 11:04:26 PM"what do you call a black man with a PhD?"

(the answer is "nigger.")


Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on November 09, 2022, 11:44:56 PM
Quote from: Bebé Bruno on November 09, 2022, 04:22:10 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on November 08, 2022, 11:10:00 PM^ Wow. "See what you made me do?" Really? You might take a little time to see how this makes you look.

Wow Mags,

What are you thinking? I mean why would you post something so outrageous like this, do you know how that makes you look?

Just kidding...I don't get it. I mean folks can post racial crap like below, but not a word of discouragement or disgust from ole Dark Lightning. Not that's strange!


Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 11:04:26 PM"what do you call a black man with a PhD?"

(the answer is "nigger.")




bruno, by my count youve posted ^^^this more than me.

i used it to illustrate the existence of something that i profoundly disagree with.

you apparently want to use it to abuse people.

clean up your act.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Biggus Dickus on November 09, 2022, 11:59:48 PM
I'm using it to illustrate how much I abhor the use of this word, and how the forum allowed it to be  used without question. Like I profoundly disagree with the use of this word.

Clean up your act Billy-Boy!

You could have illustrated your point without going into specific details of this so-called joke of yours, but you felt it necessary to post it, and use the same word repeatedly in later comments to try and justify your willingness to use the word.

Now you're upset?

I'm only posting a copy of a quote from something you said, which everyone here on this forum excepts Mags and I thought was just fine and dandy.


 



Title: Re: halloween
Post by: billy rubin on November 10, 2022, 12:02:57 AM
i have already said that i will drop this matter out of consideration for th emembers here, and will post no more on it.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Biggus Dickus on November 10, 2022, 12:09:22 AM
Very well, I won't quote it anymore.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Magdalena on November 10, 2022, 07:30:52 AM
Just for the record, I did not report a word, and I didn't report anyone, either.

This is what bothers me:
Billy and I were having a good and productive conversation —I think— about things a white man and a Latina woman would probably never have the opportunity to discuss unless both are genuinely curious to know about it, want to learn from the mistakes,  and have a genuine desire to change it.
—Racism.

...And "Domingo Siete" or,
Reinhard Heydrich and
August Friedrich Kubizek had to show up and bring negativity to it. As if talking about racism wasn't negative enough. No, he had to come to say —nothing has changed since the  '60s.
—Some people don't give a shit about such matters.
—And those who do, are being "dragged" into a debate and "forced" to take sides.

Were we (billy and I) dragging you and forcing you to take a side?
No.
—Billy and I didn't do that.


Before, I would've considered a forum administrator's  opinion, but this is coming from someone who said:
"Indeed. You see, [we] are what ye-average keyboard warriors on Twitter would call a pair of nazis. ..."

Oh, so you're not a nazi, you're just called a nazi on the internet?
Or,
"You're  not a nazi, you just play one on TV?"
Complaining?

—No.

Bragging?
Proud?
Annoying?
Mildly Satisfying?

—Yes.

Billy said:
"I'm starting to give more of a fuck, period.

I used to just let the racists talk, and not call them on it, because there was no point, you know? they never change..."

—How can this statement and MLK's statement bother or annoy anyone?
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on November 10, 2022, 12:25:59 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 10, 2022, 07:30:52 AMBefore, I would've considered a forum administrator's  opinion, but this is coming from someone who said:
"Indeed. You see, [we] are what ye-average keyboard warriors on Twitter would call a pair of nazis. ..."

Oh, so you're not a nazi, you're just called a nazi on the internet?
Indeed, though Twitter specifically - not the Internet as a whole. Pretty much "everyone" in my three discord servers is what Twitter would call a nazi - not for what we say, but for how we say it.

QuoteOr,
"You're  not a nazi, you just play one on TV?"
Not even that. I've met maybe two people who could be classified as Nazis this year. Personally, I support a minimal government oversight, which in itself is a deal breaker for Nazism, and don't care about some key issues Nazis hold as paramount, so I'm about as far from them in terms of individual rights and liberty as I am from Socialists in terms of economics.

QuoteBragging?
Proud?
Annoying?
Mildly Satisfying?

—Yes.
I'm probably all of those things at one time or another. Sometimes all at once. I do try to only brag about things I consider achievements though. Poking Twitter bubbles is rather a minor one as such go, which I clarified.

Quote—How can this statement and MLK's statement bother or annoy anyone?
I don't know. Do they?
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on November 10, 2022, 01:42:21 PM
[Moved from Closure of HAF. (not happening) (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,17211.0.html) - Asmo]

Quote from: Magdalena on November 10, 2022, 07:46:30 AMI have thick skin, like billy, but that doesn't mean that some of you guys' comments don't hurt me.
I think beyond a certain point, thick skin is about just-not-caring. If you are passionate about an issue, making a carefree attitude difficult and probably undesirable, those hurts are likely to fall on your strength of character ratehr than the thickness of your skin. At least, that has been my experience. This is not a comment on yours in any capacity - just an observation that sometimes in discussions, we use muscles other than mental walls. Those do sting to get a slug to.

QuoteNone of you have offended me, ever. But some of you guys' words have hurt me and yet in 10 years, I don't think I have thrown a "toddler tantrum" not yet.
As someone who tends to do that, it was never the intention. Yes, I refuse to make special considerations for mentally-able adults unless specifically asked for some, but that is not with the goal of causing hurt or even stirring up controversy - I talk to you the way I talk to my colleagues the way I talk to the more insufferable of my gamer pals the way I talk to myself. It depends on the setting and the situation - not the person or people involved.

Of course, the flipside of that coin is in counting on not being specially considered in return. In my regular circles, it's a relatively safe bet.

QuoteAsking to be banned, as I said, is my way of doing a peaceful protest. "Converting" a racist should not be a bad thing. If it is, I don't want to be part of a group that condemns it. I rather you guys ban me, for doing something good, than to be around and be seen as a nuisance.
I don't see you as a nuisance. I also don't see how converting a racist's vocabulary where everyone can hear converts the racist himself - unless skin deep is good enough, which I don't think is the case and, messy as it was, I think that point was made very well over the course of this discussion.

I see it thusly; if I were a racist (As in, treating or willing to treat people differently based on the colour of their skin - I leave the whole power plus privilege crap to Twitter) "all" I'd have to do to effectively fly under the radar and achieve the current year, is moderate my vocabulary in public, while advocating for segregation under the guise of inclusion and diversity, advocating for radicalization under the guise of tolerance, advocating for discrimination under the guise of "protecting" minorities - so forth.

The kind of world Mr. King dreamt of. Yes, ye-olde "classical" racists do work against it, but so do those who do the above. Me? I oppose the lot. I don't set out specifically to right as many wrongs in the world as I can, however, I do try to treat everyone equally. That does mean, if you pardon the metaphor, potentially telling a rape joke where a rape victim can hear.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: MarcusA on April 27, 2023, 08:23:13 PM
Postmodernism is built on cultural appropriation.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: MarcusA on August 04, 2023, 02:24:21 AM
Accusing someone of evil intent who means good, but they cannot explain themselves clearly enough to sensitive souls, is not only stupid but it is also downright harassment.  As far as I am concerned, both Mags and Bruno deserved to go.  If they want to find witches to burn, they should go to a New Age festival.  Asmo and Tom62 wouldn't know if their pants were on fire, let alone make a decision about being outright racists.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on August 04, 2023, 07:17:12 AM
It's a product of the times and human nature, unfortunately. Books get judged by their cover as thoughts get judged by their presentation. It's surface-level and rising. Personally, I don't think content has ever been less relevant or the debate climate less shallow - at least in my lifetime - and though given to colourful turn of phrase every now and then, I do try to remedy that.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Recusant on August 04, 2023, 07:45:35 AM
Quote from: MarcusA on August 04, 2023, 02:24:21 AMAccusing someone of evil intent who means good, but they cannot explain themselves clearly enough to sensitive souls, is not only stupid but it is also downright harassment.  As far as I am concerned, both Mags and Bruno deserved to go.  If they want to find witches to burn, they should go to a New Age festival.  Asmo and Tom62 wouldn't know if their pants were on fire, let alone make a decision about being outright racists.

Taking it upon yourself to render judgement on people, eh? People from different cultures than your own, no less. This is not in any way a positive contribution to this site.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: MarcusA on August 04, 2023, 08:44:52 AM
Mags and Bruno may be far different to me but they can still read, just not properly.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on August 04, 2023, 09:55:41 AM
Whether or not this is the case in this particular situation, I'd like to ask you to abstain from passing judgement on forum members who are not here to defend their position. It's unproductive and rude besides.

(This is a personal request, not an administrative one)
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: MarcusA on August 04, 2023, 10:54:58 AM
Done, Asmo.
Title: Re: halloween
Post by: Asmodean on August 04, 2023, 12:39:12 PM
Cheers! :cheers: